i dont understand what are you talking about with jarek, his turtle game is way to easy to inticapte and punish. If someone keeps jumping because of his Ground Slam thats because they play noobish. He is so easy to counter.

1. Keep Side Stepping and you render everything useless.
2. Dont jump freely to dodge his GS you have to train your sense and when you see him jump up then you jump and punish.
3. Just cause you poke with his Kick Axe doesnt mean your going to fool a good person in parrying the Kick axe 1 2 parry 444.
4. If i see a person is trying to poke way to often ill just Back Dash Punish, Side Step Punish or just simply punish straight on.
5. Jarek is not high tier hes mid.
6. Ermacs setup is better than jareks because you got a projectile 1 extra better stance and in my opinion better specials. Also you get Damaging combos and also high unbreakable damagin combos. Who ever uses jarek post your SN for XBOX live and ill see why hes so good. Especially u mkflegend

I never said Jarek was the best character in the game, I just said he's very underrated and can do damage.As I said, nobody uses him that good except a few players here and there and myself on xbox live.

His turtle game isn't that easy if you know what you're doing, if you jump a lot you're eating a lasso or flying kick.If you stay grounded, you eat a TS drop, if you don't parry well, you'll eat a lot of kickaxe followed by FT's.

He's not an insane combo monster, but he's a great turtle character and is underrated.He can do damage, Cyrax is another example as there's a player named pigofthehut.

Play him and you'll see why Cyrax is pretty damn good in the right hands, same situation for Jarek just with different tactics involved.

BTW, my GT are mkf or The Me.

Also, you can't side step the lasso with lag online.Most of the time you'll block it and actually, unless the jarek player is a noob, his opponent would be wise to jump otherwise eat drops all day...this is basic knowledge of Jarek, if you don't believe me go to mkacentral and ask.Everyone there knows you can't play those silly games against a Jarek like me.Also the pokes, and jabs are great for mixing up...you parry I'll poke you, if you stand there and block I'll throw you or use the unblockable throw move or even a drop(you not expecting it) trust me you'll see what I mean if I corner trapped you....and like I said, if I nail you with a lasso just one, that's an easy 55% for me unless you lag horribly as in one ping or two horribly.

Top pl;ayers made this list?

I am very competitive on PS2 and XBOX, I play evry day, and know personally most of the top ranked players. I would be interested which "Top Players" helped make this tier list.

You mentioned that the tier list is useful, I would like to know what its useful for?

In addition, your shujinko theory falls apart because how much damage he takes has nothing to do with the abilities he is equipped with. If I never get hit, taking damage doesnt mean anything. I apoligize if I came off as an ass, but people set me off by flaming when I said that subbie shouldnt be top tier...which again he isnt. But I digress.... I would love to discuss other powerful characters, but I hear the flamethrowers charging as it is, and I know in my heart its really not open for discussion.

To the cyrax guy, sorry if I came off as harsh. You asked why tier lists dont include opinions, I answered you. I thought you were serious with the high low thing, I should have payed more attention.
I play on both xbox and ps2, but I have been playing PS2 most of the time now. Find me as Gaijin, im on every night.

I agree with you about sub man, I say stick to your views afterall, I'm a top player on xbox, I should have a say also, since you say you play every day you should get your own idea after a while.

I also believe sub isn't THAT good, he's much better then he was in MK:D no doubt, but top 5?I don't think so personally.My Kabal, Jarek, Ermac kills any Sub online on xbox.

Same predictable tactics, hide behind clone, bait with the ground ice pillar, then freeze, repeat, poke, stay in weapon unless going for FT's.

He's not that tough if you ask me, and since people love turtling with him I pick someone like Jarek or Kabal.If you do the pillar, they eat a spin for free hits.I'll also shoot fireballs all day then come in with the hookswords.If I'm jarek, drop all day but not often since the pillar will then I move in for the kill with the jabs and free throws.

I won't give away all my tactics but I can handle Subby, as good as he is scorpion is MUCH more difficult by a lot more.

I would also have to debate Shujinko's current tier (in spite of the extra damage he takes), although I don't know all that much about him at the moment. I do know, however, that he has one of the strongest throw games in MKA.

All this time I'm hearing "this is wrong" "this is wrong"

Tell me:


What makes Shujinko so good?

Why is sub so bad?


Come back to me with this then we can talk............

SubZero is no doubt 1 of the top 5 as I believe Shinnok is one of the top 5 as well. When I first picked up this game they were my 2 favorite characters. I love Mavado and Kitana for being able to actually do dial a combos on the ground. Now my g/f really likes Reiko. @Hjs, post on the first page some of Reikos highest combos. That would be nice to know. Could anyone share a high combo they found with Reiko at least so I can pass it on to my g/f.

Oh yeah, about Shujinko. Ashrah and Shujinko were my fav character's in the last game. In this game I do not like how if you hit Shujinko it takes more damage off him than anyone else. I mean they took his middle stance away and that brought him down big time. Im so frustrated with that but oh well, im sure everyone here lost a fav stance with one of their guys.

mkf, if you are playin a sub who stays in kori stance most of the time, then you havent played a good sub yet.

I'll admit there aren't a HUGE amount of "great" sub players on xbox, however the few very good player I have played aren't anything ridiculous that I can't handle.

And only at times have good sub players I've played stayed in kori, like I said dude.Those patterns are what every good sub players does usually just with different precision.

Those good sub players usually stay in Shotokan for free throw damage understandably, I just wait for it and parry it.

But another thing about him that's better then he was in MK:D is (i'm sure you guys noticed) they improved the speed of his kori stance.His swipes come out really fast IMO.

kori isnt as dependable because of the parries. Sub's best stance is shotokan. also, shotokan has d+3 and d+4, for people who like to parry the 3+FT. Its a good mixup leading upto FT.

I already mentioned why I think subbie isnt top tier. You can start to block AFTER you see every move he has start to come out, except his slide punch. The ice pillar just BEGS to sock it to him. His clone is good, but again something you are already expecting if your playing against him. I have played against a good subbie, but it was all weapon kombat, no special moves at all, which is smart because they all are slow and can bee seen coming from a mile away. Scorpion is a POWERHOUSE, and in an enirely different league than sub, sareena, and noob. Sub is a turtle, but also does not have many good turtle moves because they almost all leave him open. He gets destroyed by a better turtle, or by a very agressive player. Even when the Ice pilliar hits you, 50% of the time I can get away safely because the dration of the freeze is terribly short. He also does not have very many GOOD combos. Yes you can do some high damage ones, but not online. Online combos should always be simple and easy to pull off with lag, not something sub has a lot of. Thats why, 85% of the time when I get frozen, they just come and throw me, an utter waste of a disabling move.

People think that I am saying he sucks, he doesnt suck. I PREFER low tier characters. Why? If you get beat by a high tier char, thats an excuse for your loss. But when I beat you with low tier characters, it can only mean one thing....That I am better than you. Just because someone is high tier does not mean I hate them, or that they are useless, it just means that they require less practice to win with than someone else.

And to be frank, I do not play shujinko. I personally have a hard time thinking of his as part of the MK "Gang" because he was orginally a konquest generic char. But he has SO many moves that are so powerful. Many high, low quick moves that are impossible to predict, as well as nearly INFINITE combo possibilities. Yes he takes a lot of damage, but so what the bosses are slow, does that keep them from being tier 1? No way. My point with shujinko is that his taking high damage is not a reason to label him "unplayable". Again I cant say that I have extensive experience with him, but I h ave gotten my butt handed to me a few times and thought WOW. Im not saying hes top tier (although its certainly a possibility) but hes definatly not this "unplayable" category, and hes definatly better than cyrax. I am fairly certain cyrax is the worst in the game... IMO, although I pick him alot for that reason alone.

Ok, from your description, you also have not played a good sub. Now i am not an elite but my sub can definitely hang with some of the top people. Since , you say tht sub is so predictable and you are one of the top players on ps2, let me show you what my sub can do. I want to put an end to this argument. My Ps2 tag will be DMSUBBY for the next few days. So, gaijin or mkf (i think u are an xbox player so i cant play you), let me know if you guys want to play my sub.

Few of the people who play really well with sub are Versa (duh), Jade-Own, and SZ2. These are only the ones that i have played. Im sure there are more since sub is definitely top tier.

I tried to start playing with Sub some and I suck with him now...for some reason people can block his 3 in Shotokan while crouching...which really lowers his effectiveness for me.

i would add reiko into the Tier 1 part because he has his throwing stars, his teleport attack, and his sliding kick which allows air Kombat. Reiko is a pretty cheap player lol, although he is my fav!

Are you sure that attack 3 in Shotokan can be crouch blocked? That's really strange...



Uh...no..

I played with DMSUBBY other night and I must say first off you have my respect. You actually put your money where your mouth was and played me. I will also say that he beat me, albeit it was laggy so he wouldnt play me more than once, and I picked mokap, (not my best char), but I did take one round very solidly. But its clear that he does know how to play, and so I respect his input... However he agrees with me that subbys moves suck, he plays with his normal chains an punches and kicks, he said, "thats how you have to play him" and I 100% agree. Subbys moves suck. Its no suprise that he did not ice pilliar one time, why? Because Ice pillar blows. And while subby has some great standard moves, I dont think standard moves alone qualify for top tier, yes he has good normal moves, but when there are other characters with equally as great normal moves, and with powerful special moves as well, thats what makes a character top tier.


Anyways I just wanted to say props to DMSUBBY for having guts. If I can see you know how to play I will take you MUCH more seriously.

Reiko is like mid-tier.

Haha. I agree. While reiko is cheap, (so is everyone with that tele-throw) his starrs are not half as good as noobs.

The problem with decideing tier is that you cant do it in text, you need to WHOOP some ass with him to convince anyone, that is after all how tier is REALLY decided. Many on here say "My favorite character is XXX!!! He is soooooo coool!!!! I like the color blue. XXX is blue, he is top tier." ...we all want our fav characters to be on the top of every list, but that isnt so.

yeah GG gaijin but you were laggin real bad for me. You had near zero recovery frames and your parry cancel and jump cancel had insane priority. Anyways, thats in the past. I would definitely play you more if we get a good connection together.

But back to the point, the only move that i really relied on was the ice clone, and i caught you in that several times. subby just needs that one move and his mixup game from shoto to win most battles. But its not easy to play with sub. Its all about turtling and baiting your opponent and it takes alot of patience to do that. Since you used Mokap, i really didnt need the ice shower cause you were not gonna be spamming any kind of projectile (characters like Sareena and Kano). And i also tried to make it a point that anyone who uses Kori stance as the first choice doesnt know how to play sub, since its much easier to win with Shotokan.

Hopefully i can play you again, this time with a good connection, so i can further show you why sub is top tier. And sub does rely on ice clone alot. Its his main turtle move.

Top 10 fighters, in order:

#1 Sareena
#2 Quan Chi
#3 Scorpion
#4 Drahmin
#5 Subzero
#6 Noob Saibot
#7 Tanya
#8 Dairou
#9 Mavado
#10 Shinnok

Anyone disagree with this?

sareena
scorp
sub
quan chi
noob
drahmin
Tanya
Mavado
Shinnok
my opinion. Yeah and Dairou somewhere between 5 and 10.

I think Tanya, Mavado and Kung Lao are better than Drahmin and Dairou.

Yeah, subxero I'm an xbox player man.Sorry, I would love to play you though.

BTW, if you can hang with top players with sub then I would say that makes you an elite subby player.My opinion, you know what you're talking about like the rest of us here I'm sure you can back it up man.

But I would love to take on a really good subby.Not many on xbox, everyone uses scorpion, chameleon, noob, smoke, sektor.
When it comes to the ninjas usually, top role.

Quan chi is NOT at #2, once you can block his high low combos hes MUCH less effective, and I personally dont think subby is better than noob, and although a strong char im not sure hes in the top ten, espicially since you left out all the bosses.

I have a hard time putting facts behind any BEST fighter list because it can change so easily, all it takes is to discover the right traps. MK:A has FAAR too many characters for this stuff to be decided for a looong time...
All of those are great characters tho.


Dmsubby... the jump priority is not lag, I am not saying that it wasnt lagging, but the crossover kicks have INSANE priority with everyone, and is why I jump so much when it gets close, lag does favor the jumper however. I am a fairly agressive player and your style combats mine rather well. I played a little moreso cause I knew you must have been from the fourms ;). Mabye it will be better next time, I look foward to playing again, not for flames, but for the glory of the game. You notice my record I am sure. I have never quit a game, and I only challenge the best players. As I am sure you already know (i noticed you had about 1k games on that account as I do on mine) its VERY easy to get a good rec, just quit at "Finish Him" and challenge noobs. The best sub I have seen to dat used PURE kori. I dont play him only against him, however you make me think twice about your shotokan.

The truth is I don ́t think it ́s the time to say who ́s 3 or 4 cause the game is still new.

But, If I ́ll have to say now:

Quan is lower

Noob is higher

Sub is better than Drhamin.