Argument over completely trivial and unimportant things. Lovely.


How does anyone of you not realized that you are basically douching it up for further shit-flinging?

Of course you didn't read it, you're a coward. You're the one starting shit, you insulted me for no reason.
I'm bothered that you're attacking me for no reason. If you insult me, I'm going to defend myself. You're a troll and you're wrong. Whatever point you were trying to make, you've been proven wrong. Whatever argument you were trying to have, you lost. Get over it. Just be a decent person and apologize. There's no need for childish creeps like you who just try to piss people off on here. Get a life and grow up. As the bigger person in this situation, I'm asking you to refrain from replying to any of my future posts, and I will do the same for you. I'm not wasting any more time on you.

Sad. and i'm the one's that bothered, on to the next one

You just proved my point right there. You're a very small person tbh and you keep making yourself look worse every time you reply to me.

If we want to be objective about this, Sonya ranks higher than Kitana on two out of three of the platform leaderboards for "Favorite Character Used" in MK9 using the main site's statistics:

PS3:
9. Kitana
11. Sonya

360:
8. Sonya
10. Kitana

PC:
7. Sonya
11. Kitana

And for those curious that don't want to go the site, the top five are always Scorpion, Raiden, Sub-Zero, Liu Kang and Johnny Cage, not necessarily in that order (except Scorpion whom is always in first).

You have to keep in mind, that how they play is different from actually liking someone from the roster.

I mean I really liked Shang tsung from MKDa to MKA, but in MKA he was basically shit. He still is mediocre in MK9, but that does not take away from the fact that I like the character.

However in shoryuken's pool Kitana has been requested to return more than Sonya.
Kitana got 374 votes
Sonya got 170

It's likely we'll get Kitana in (or some variation or legacy of Kitana) over Sonya, since I firmly believe Cassie has superseded Sonya and as of yet there is no indication as to what Kitana's status in MKX is. I find it unlikely we'll be totally without one of the femninjas, Tanya excluded since she's a shoe-in.

Yeah, I didn't say anything about Kitana or Sonya being in MKX. Only time will tell. What I'm saying is that Kitana is overall more popular and favoured than Sonya and it's not only that pool.

This is Kitana's thread... sooo...

Okay why does most Kitana or Sonya threads end up turning into a Sonya vs Kitana fan battle? It's like Sonya fans are intimidated by Kitana's popularity and Kitana fans are intimidated by Sonya's popularity. I don't get it.

I mean I don't see this type of stuff in Jade and Tanya threads for instance.

Regardless of character changes, even the casuals were generally able to pick up on the fact that having a story mode that only gives the spotlight to half the cast and ignores the other half, only to later kill off half of those in one badly directed cutscene for the sake of shock value was probably not a very good idea.

When even the goddamn casuals can pick out the moments in the story that just plain didn't work, and nearly the entire community is in consensus with them on this, don't you think there might actually be some legitimate problems in there? Problems that should be addressed and fixed, or at least not repeated in the next installment?

Are you seriously trying to say that none of the criticism is constructive, and that none of it exposes real, fundamental issues with the story?


Because if you are, then it might actually be the most fanboyish thing said in this entire thread so far.



What stuff?

You make it sound like there's some devious shadowy cabal of corporate overlords that ensures NRS meets their demands or else. But what decisions could a publisher possibly enforce upon the team in this case?

Do you think they hold corporate board meetings to discuss the roster and make sure to remove the characters that their market researchers tell them are the least popular?

Is there like a guy in a suit hawking over Vogel's shoulder as he writes the script, making sure that the poor guy doesn't get too carried away and, god forbid, doesn't accidentally write a story that's TOO good, because the masses won't be able to handle it, and the company's profits will suffer?

I really want to know how this makes sense in your head.

WB hit the fucking jackpot with NRS. They are the goose that keeps laying golden eggs every couple of years. So I imagine that the extent of WB's executive meddling at this point is "don't make fatalities too batshit crazy you guise; we don't want to end up getting slapped with an AO rating. Other that that, keep doing what you're doing. Love the eyebrows, Ed."





That must be why Dead Space 3, Hitman: Absolution, the new Thief, DmC and other equally wonderful sequels and reboots have sold so well lately, huh?

Because the publishers were practically tripping over themselves to make them more appealing to the "general audiences". I mean, they made sure they weren't too difficult or demanding of the players (can't have that these days, that's a no-no), checked off every box on that "what are kids crazy for these days?" list and basically did the opposite of what the core audience wanted, because fuck those fanboys. What you're saying is completely true, and hardcore fans really are such a miniscule segment of the buying demographic that they can safely be ignored, so it's only natural that all of these games I just mentioned sold like gangbusters.

Oh wait.

I guess they didn't, did they..?

So what actually happened?

Maybe, just maybe, the reasons why the hardcore audience loved these games are the same reasons that made the games sell so many copies in the first place.

And maybe when you betray your fanbase and dumb the game down to attract the casuals, you strip away those very things that made the franchise good and popular and end up pleasing nobody at the end.

Why are you making it sound like creating a game that sells well and creating a game that satisfies the core fanbase are mutually exclusive?

What is it with you and false dichotomies everywhere?


Christ, just tell us a good fucking story. If it has no obvious glaring flaws and some fanservice sprinkled in, it'll be more than enough to keep the casuals happy. But if you also manage to write something that treats the source material with respect and is true to the spirit of the originals, then you've won the hardcore fans over too.

There is literally no downside to having a good story. Not even from a corporate bean-counting standpoint. It doesn't require the whole team or artists and designers working around the clock, just the script writers getting together and taking an extra week or two to come up with another draft. How fucking hard could that be?



So things like "feedback," "response from the community" and "word-of-mouth" are just not something that exists in the dimension where you come from?

Must be a bleak place...

Because in my dimension, during the last couple of years we've seen the big publishers slowly come to realize that if they mistreat a beloved franchise or, even worse, disrespect its fans, the first thing that will suffer is their bottom line. And that's something that even megacorporations have lately been forced to consider.



"If the waiter brings you a plate of soup with a bunch of flies in it, you can either eat that fucking soup with all the flies and pretend to enjoy it, you can pay for it and leave without saying a word, or you can invest a couple of millions in your own restaurant and serve whatever soup you want there. These are your only options. Don't you dare bring this matter to attention with the waiter or the restaurant owner, though. Complaining has never solved anything. Ever. "

Again - what the fuck kinda dimension are you from where this is true?



I'd like some sources on that, because considering that the original MK team consisted of like 5 people, with Tobias being both the writer and the character designer, I sincerely doubt anyone else could've had any real input on the story.

As far as I know, out of the five people responsible for MK9's script, the only one who was around in any capacity during Tobias' tenure on the team was Vogel. Brian Chard, Dominic Cianciolo, Alexander Barrentine and Jon Greenberg didn't join the team until much later.

They're just some dudes. They were handed another guy's fruit of creative labor and told to continue from where he left off. If they had no input on its original creation, the least they could do is treat it with some fucking respect.

What's next, are you gonna claim that the dipshit responsible for MKSM's embarrassing clusterfuck of a script was somehow qualified to fuck with the story just because he happened to be on the team?



What kinda shitty defeatist attitude is this?

If nobody complains or raises an objection, how would anybody know that there is a problem that needs to be rectified?

When the ink dries on that contract, the legal owners of an IP aren't magically granted some divine vision beyond mortal understanding. It certainly does not grant them immunity from criticism. The only thing it does is makes them legally free to do whatever they want with their property. Just as everybody else is legally free to call them a bunch of hacks if they feel they're not doing a good job.



Even if we leave, ignoring the bad things doesn't make them go away.

You are telling me that you are apparently aware of all of the shortcomings of MK9's story, yet you consciously choose to turn a blind eye on them. And as questionable as I think your willful ignorance is, it's your personal choice based on an educated opinion.

But then there are the people who haven't really been paying attention to the story. There are casuals who are just starting to get into the serries. They join the community every day. You can see some of them in this thread. A lot of them praise MK9's Story Mode because they haven't been following the previous continuity. They don't see what's wrong with the new one because they don't know any better.

They have no educated opinion.

So people like me and Razor try our best to explain and educate. And when we're done, it's entirely possible that they'll still choose to ignore everything that was said and arrive to the same conclusion you did. But whatever the case may be, it should still be an educated decision. Which cannot be formed without being aware of all the facts of the situation.

Again, if no one speaks up, no one will even know that there is a problem.



The result is that the circumstances of Sindel's resurrection in the NT make a whole bunch of characters look like retards when they weren't before and also call the competency of the writers into serious question.

But yeah, other than that, it's the same, I agree.



So you support headcanon and wishful thinking when it suits you? Come on, man...


Although to be fair, Boon has stated that this specific issue will definitely be addressed in the Story Mode, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I actually want to be proven wrong on this one.



Have you heard of The Ship of Theseus? There are only so many minor details you can change until you pass the point of no return and end up with something entirely different that only superficially resembles the original.

So once again, out of curiosity - how badly do they have to fuck up for you to finally acknowledge that they have indeed fucked up?



Yeah, god forbid these colorful characters have some actual depth to them.


Just to be clear, I don't want MK to be a humorless grimdark hyperrealistic character drama. MK never takes itself all too seriously, and that's a huge part of its charm.

But if all of these other movies and games can find a balance between memorable, comicbooky personalities and some legitimate character development, why can't MK?

Sure, we might not know for certain whether Kitana is haunted by her guilty conscience or some shit, but the actual events in her life that she went through are detailed quite nicely in the games (or at least they were in the OT). She did lose her mother to suicide, she was groomed to become one of Kahn's elite assassins, she did have to put up with a "sister" that obviously had something badly wrong with her, and after she eventually discovered who she is and where she came from, she did ultimately decide to betray her adopted father and Emperor.

Notice that I didn't have to artificially inject any forced gritty bullshit.

Not a single one of these things is made up.

The interpretation of them may be called into question, but the games have set the facts in stone quite nicely. And if whoever is telling the story decides to finally make Kitana a bit more 3-dimensional and explore how she personally feels about all of the shit that happened to her, then the only question is how far is he willing to go in his character exploration and and how much of an emphasis should he make on the emotional side of things. You don't have to go full-on character drama (although it would be a refreshing change of pace); it can just be a throwaway line or, better yet, an actual conversation between the characters during a downtime between all of the action beats.

The point is that there is no need to force drama into the plot, because all of the pieces in the story necessary for it exist are already in place. So make no mistake - the skeleton for the story is there, and it's very solid. It's just waiting to be told in greater detail.


I must've mentioned it before a hundred times, but I believe Tobias himself once said something to the extent of every kombatant being a strong enough character to be able to carry a Mythologies game of their own. MKMSZ was only supposed to have been the first one out the many to follow.

This is what he meant.



Fiction is fiction.

Sure, video games as a medium offer a lot of interesting opportunities to play around with the framing of the story and the way it's told. However, no matter the medium, the fundamental principles of good script-writing and storytelling remain in place. If want your story to be able to stand up on its own and not immediately fall apart under scrutiny, it's not something you can just ignore.

Well, you can certainly try, just don't be surprised when you end up with a pile of shit.



MK started off as an entertaining trashy 90s martial arts story, and we love it for it. But doesn't mean it has to always remain one. It doesn't mean that it can't grow beyond that. Hell, one can argue that it already did.

"Western action movie" is just a genre label. It's not indicative of quality.

Fucking Highlander 2: The Quickening is a "Western action movie".

But so is Terminator 2.


"Superhero movie" is also a genre label.

Superman IV: The Quest for Peace, despite being an absolute waste of the celluoid it's printed on, is considered a "superhero movie".

So is The Dark Knight.


On which side of the spectrum would you prefer MK to be?



>Eh, this thing that I like could be better, but it'll do... Whatever, I guess...
>I'm so invested in this story that as soon as somebody new takes over the franchise and starts changing things left and right, I'll instantly abandon my previous attachment and latch on to this new thing, regardless of its quality.

You sure have an odd way of showing your investment, chum...


See, you're telling me that you love MK.

I think that we can both agree when I say that more than any other fighting game franchise out there, MK has the potential to be a sprawling dark fantasy epic that could easily carry a full-blown RPG on the scale of Mass Effect. With a team of good writers, the universe, the lore and characters are developed enough and expansive enough to support it.

So then use it. Develop it further. Do something with it, for fuck's sake!

To me personally, having all of this potential and squandering it is borderline criminal.

So if we're in agreement on all of this, why are you satisfied with MK being a popcorn flick for the lowest common denominator when it could be so much more?

Isn't that kind of a shitty attitude for a fan to have?

Why don't you want whatever it is that you love to reach its full potential?

After all...

Y'know, inspire them to be the best they can be?

What the hell? I had no idea this many people worked on the MK9 script. You know what they say about too many chefs...

Most writing benefits from having two people: an author and an editor. The editor is meant to keep the author in check in case ideas get too crazy, but otherwise not interfere with the meat of the work. Having five different people both write and probably edit scripts is a disaster waiting to happen.

Good post, by the way.

You know Sumac's not gonna seriously understand a word of that, right? He'll read just enough to pick out a few quotes he can use as ammo to call you a nostalgia-motivated fanboy again and that's as far as any of it'll sink into his brain.

He's not actually here to debate intelligently, there's no possibility of changing his opinion, he just wants to be annoying. The dude admitted that his purpose on this board is to "get" us. Y'know? The actual textbook definition of internet trolling, post whatever deliberately obnoxious and untrue bullshit it takes to make someone mad, with no other motivation than enjoying making people mad?

I don't wanna ruin Red and Rex's back and forth, but I'd like to address one bit from Rex's latest post:

"What's next, are you gonna claim that the dipshit responsible for MKSM's embarrassing clusterfuck of a script was somehow qualified to fuck with the story just because he happened to be on the team? "

Sort of. I agree with the sentiment, but MKSM, treated as an AU to the real series, is an awesome little addition to the franchise.

I wish there was a Youtube video that collected every retarded line in Shaolin Monks like "You're beautiful! Who are you?" and Liu asking a corpse if it's okay and all the times they can't tell Raiden is blatantly Shang in disguise fucking with them, the way there's one for all the silliest moments in Defenders of the Realm like all the times Sonya yells "Kombat time!"

The shame of it is that MKSM's art direction was WAY better in every area than MK9's. It actually looked like a graphically upgraded MK2 and the level design made Outworld feel like it had a real geography. Not to mention that it's probably the best co-op beat-em-up ever made, from a gameplay perspective. (The best 3D one, at least. DD Neon, Castle Crashers, and Scott Pilgrim certainly deserve props as well)

No. There were problems with story mode and MK9 story as a whole, however, they were not as dramatic as some people pretend them to be. And I've yet to see rioting gamers pissed off about MK9 story mode. I haven't seen much complaints from anyone, but few old time MK fans. Everyone else enjoyed game for what it is - good fighting game with decent story and that's it.
So, no need to dramatize everything.


I hoped it will be obvious, but...Well, let's start then:
- gameplay perspective - to provide different experience;
- commercial viability of the characters;
- fan demands for the certain characters;
- developers decisions (which should not coincide with what fans want 24/7);


And all can change with one single mistake. So, even if they are making money now it doesn't mean that they are completely free to do whatever they want. WB is a big corporation, there are multiple factors at play: publicity, personal tastes of execs.


The sold badly because they were not good enough. Those games listed above belong to certain genres, that nowadays not in the best shape. Hitman and Thief are stealth actions - and stealth actions were not heavy hitters in the last years unless they are called Metal Gear Solid. DMC was victim of the Capcom crazy execs who hoped reach unachievable number of sales. And from what I've heard DMC was rather hardcore for a modern game. I don't know about Dead Space 3, so can't comment on that.

Once again, as numerous as fandom can be, it rarely influence sold amount of copies, unless series called Mario or Final Fantasy. Sonic fans bitch and moan about every single new game in the series, but they still sell, somehow, despite Sonic fandom being one of the biggest, besides being one of the craziest and shittiest. You'd think that with that amount of bitching new Sonic games should sold only like 10 copies...but no.


Where I have said, that it always mutually exclusive?
Please, get rid of the habit of putting words in my mouth.


Mortal Kombat is a fighting game. It doesn't matter what kind of story it has to sell numbers. MK9 is a living prove of that.
It's not bad to have a good story, but if its not neccessary, then...


More often then not, it's just a marketing ploy. All corporations want to uphold good image of a customer friendly organisations, because you know, it gains people trust. And if you have people trust you can sell them more stuff.
Of course, they gather information about what people (general audience) want, but it can be ignored in favor of other ideas, if they think they are good enough to be profitable. I've yet to see examples of what you said. Usually corporations do stupid things on their own, without outright hostile desires. And their mistakes lies in angering general audience, not only fans. Fans are easy to tame in the general scheme. Throw them some bones and they will forgive you and turn into docile bunch once again, so you can sell them even more uneeded shit.
This is business not contest in friendlyness or understanding.


From this very own dimension. And you example about soup doesn't make sense in the context of the video games, because of too many reasons. Unlike with the game, you can personally meet people who were responsible for bad soup and tell it in their faces. They don't have big wigs over them and neccessity to please other people with that dish. One plate of bad soup is exactly one plate of bad soup served only for you. And even then, if you dissatisfied with the soup, but others are pleased...your opinion amounts to nothing in the end. And you will be looked upon as drama queen for starting scandal over nothing.


What exactly in your dimension stops caracter designer and writer listen to the other people suggestions, find them worthy and incorporate them in the game?
As for respect...people have different ideas of what the story should be. Since original author is not on the team anymore, there is no way to know, if his desires would coincide with the needs and desires of the company. And I think Barrentine was one of the writers of MKDA. So, I trust him, if that's the case. MKSM is ireedemable.


It's called "aknowledging reality". And we already talked about it.
When you know you can't put Moon on its back, there is no reason to attempt to do so and waste your time and efforts on a meaningless task. Teenage enthusiasm is good, but unaccepting reality, will lead only to gravely dissappointment.


If they are as bad as people claim, property will stop selling and company will hire another writer or shut down frahchise completely. That is all.


If bad things will be damaging for the franchise - it will sell less and lesson will be learned. If bad things are not commercially hamper series, then it doesn't make difference for the company. This is what business is about.


I am not turning blind eye on them. I have spoken about shortcomings of the MK9 story. But, unlike other certain people I don't have habit of repeating it again and again like broken record for the three years in a row. Maybe I am not obsessed with MK enough.
If somebody from NRS is reading this forum, they were aware about your opinion back in 2011, when it was time for gathering feedback. Nowadays, countless whining about MK9 story is only useless annoyance for other forum goers. MKX is already in production and it's unlikely that they change game based on shouts of few people.


It's like blaming new generation of gamers that they don't have appreciation of the NES games because they were born 20 years after its prime. Of course, it's their fault that they were not born in the 80-s.
I don't think that your and Razor's posts will change many people minds about MK9 story. From the outside MK mythology is a clusterfuck, just like any other somewhat complicated lore. So, at best those people will thank you for provided information and go on, or at worst just ignore everything you said and will treat you as an obsessed fanboy.


They have streamlined a lot of stuff. I don't find it retarded, but slightly annoying. Though I can understand why it was done, or at least, I think, I have general idea why it was done like that.


Headcanon?
Show me, where in MK9 it is said, that there were never others Sub-Zeroes, than I'll admit that you are right.


The story is different, the lore is the same. What so hard to understand difference between those two things?


From some posts it's easy to conlude, that some people want MK to turn into grimdarkedgyshit. MK9 provided more character development for some characters than the whole series. Like it actually gave sensible backstory and personality to the Smoke, turned Stryker into something more than unlikable fatso, the list goes on.


Yeah, let's turn MK in a woobie fest, since actually almost all characters have some tragedy befall on them. MK is a lot like 80-s action movie and there is no need to go deeper into characters then demanded from this genre. MK is meant to be entertaining. Some people have created those elaborated 3D images of characters, but its only their problem, that they seek something where it was never meant to be. They want to see drama with MK characters? Well, let them write fanfics or make their own fangames or something. Why developers must go out of their way to make true some empty fantasies?


MKM is not an example of good drama in any capacity. It was even more cheesy then regular MK games.


The thing is, there is no need in MK for story to stand on its own. MK is a video game, which is a sum of everything - gameplay, graphics, soundtrack, story, designs e.t.c.


I already said, if you want realistic drama with MK characters, write some fanfic. No need to wait from developers that they will give it you, because they don't. There is no need to turn MK into darkrimderpedgyshit like it happened with many series nowadays. It's fun for the fun's sake and let leave it at that. What you have imagined in your head - doesn't count.


Once again unneeded dramatisation and fanboish arguments (yes I go there). There are no new people in charge. It's MK-Team that was making the series from the first game. Sure some people left, some newcomers appeared, but that was to be expected. It was around for the 25 years. The key people are still the same, so I don't understand what the hell are you talking about.
In the end, things change. Accept or leave. Mindless loalty to the vision, which has gone will not bring it back.


I agree with that, though I believe, MK can become much more without fucking overdramatizing everything and turning characters into permawoobies. That is what I want.

However, since it's nigh impossible, I take what I can. Mindless hatred is not the way to go, especially in case of something that you have zero influence on. You can rage for all you want, but its doubtful that WB will take MK seriously and turn it into second Star Wars or something. They were not able to release Comic Book series about it or make a damn movie, which was supposedly in preproduction for the last 3 years. So, there is no reason to expect MK becoming something "more". More it's as sad as it's real.


Actually I meant, forgive some of their bad qualities.


I love you to, hon'.


Oh, given your rant it worked. Also, direct insults...well two can play this game.
Don't worry, I dont have ill will towards T-Rex and our argument will be mostly civil and intelligent. You know why? Because I prefer to uphold intelligent coversations with intelligent people, not with annoying inane lunatics obessed with their own "vision" like you are.
It's possible to make me change my mind, but you need something more than insults and delusions to do so. And I am afraid you have nothing to offer, that wouldn't fall under those categories, "lrmstr".

I tried that years ago and not only did it prove to be completely untrue, but on top of that, over time, you gradually treated me more and more the way you treat me now. The difference is back then it was unprovoked, because like I said, being a pompous ass is your default position.

So now I don't bother trying to reason with you or be peaceful. There's no reward in it for me. Treating you the way you have treated me for so long, on the other hand, brings a certain amount of lowbrow satisfaction. That's what I mean when I say "justice", and it'll have to do until Mick gets fed up with one or both of us.

You'll get tired of pretending to be civil to Rex soon enough, your arguments will gradually be made up less and less of reason and more and more of just calling him a fanboy because since you're not even willing to understand other people's sides much less change your mind on anything ever, all an argument with you is, is you and the other side repeating themselves over and over and over again, and that gets tiring...to the point where it's easier to come up with with an excuse to ignore someone's arguments than to argue against them, and you'll do what you always do and he'll be as fed up with you as I am.

Isn't Mass Effect the series that has space magic, robo kid, Cerberus (also called Derperus), etc.? Not sure that's a good example. I suggest The Witcher instead.

This shit has become sad. You two need to squash this silly feud and make peace.

This thread is MC-donalds...

I tried that once too.

It doesn't work that way with this guy.

That was the best part. The comedic timing was just perfect.

I cackle like a fucking madman every time.


MKSM is incredibly frustrating to me because it has gorgeous art design, exquisite hyperviolence, fantastic gameplay and is packed to the brim with delicious fanservice. Most importantly, they nailed the atmosphere perfectly, and it's one of the most fun bro-op experiences I've ever had.

It could've been the perfect MK game.

But then the fucking plot had to go and torpedo it all.

Wiseau.jpg


Give Battle Circuit a shot, bro. AFAIK it was the last beat'em-up that Capcom made, and I can see why they stopped. It's completely batshit insane in the best way possible, and I can't really see them topping that.

For sake of clarity, this kind of stuff is why I love MKSM, when treated as an appendix. Better than MK2 proper? Not even close. But as a one-off experiment in MK going full-retard? It's wondrous.

Another inane rant. Whatever.