And I am interested in him as Sub-Zero. But I am not whining, that Kuai Liag stole his spot in the light at every possible opportunity.


Well, see I believe, that if you put character in the story, he / she should have some purpose. If you create a side story, it should have some connection to the core plot, otherwise it is waste of time. Now, we talking not about Shakespear novel, but about video game script, so there could be some deviations from this idea.
Sub-Zero and Scorpion are kind of walking examples of that. No matter, how little they have to do with actual story they always will be in the game. And that creates neccessity to somehow write them in the game, justify their presence. This is what had happened with Sub-Zero in MKD. He was just there, received another upgrade and what? Nothing. He returned as Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei. Sub-Zero in MKDA served some purpose, but in MKD he had zero relevance to anything.


Considering that we don't know which one of them were canon, if any,it have little to no bearing to the actual story.

In MKD Scorpion was turned into Champion of Elder Gods to kill Onaga, while Sub-Zero was stranded in the Outworld searching for the exit. Now, riddle me this: which one had more connection to the story?


Yeah, yeah, more fanboish whining about MK9.
First, we have completely opposite opinios on its story.
Second, all this character depth in MK1-MK3, you speak of, was just in fans heads, not in reality. Fans just run with what little stories games had and created something bigger, which never actually existed in the first place. It's nostalgia goggles and nothing else.
Third, MK9 maybe look odd, but its because it the first part of the new story arc, and of course, as standalone story it quite leave a lot of questions. I guarantee that with the release of MKX many things will be revalued.
And MK1 events in MK1 were not rushed. If anything it was MK3, which was rather condensed.
And fourth, about retcons, I was able to prove with the math and logic, that MK9 did more good to the old cast, than bad. It is exactly why very few errors look like big problems there. I can do it again, if neccessary, because I don't like when people speak lie about "botched retcons" and shit.


In original timeline there was the whole lineage of Sub-Zeroes and Kuai Liang was just seventh to bear this title.
The more you know, as they say.

Except Sub-Zero does have purposes other than his personal problems that are significant to the story. I'm not sure what games you've been playing.



So, it's a waste of time developing more about our characters rather than just throwing them in there for the sake of killing the final boss? That's pathetic. Everything has a connection, even if it isn't a significant role in the main story. Sub-Zero dealing with his clan being over run by cyborgs seemed to connect itself to the main story. So, yeah, they do have tie ins with the main plot of the story, they're just not created for nothing.



You can say that about pretty much every other character then. They were just there. Did we need Hotaru? Havik? Kira? Jade? Sindel? No. The whole thing about Deception pretty much revolved around two characters (in my opinion) and they were Raiden and Shujinko. Everyone else was just there. It's pretty hard to have a story with twenty-something characters and have them all be the main stars of the story. Some characters are just thrown in there for other incidents to happen, which makes stories more interesting just than having a group of good guys go up against some random evil person that wants to take over the world. Having a side story makes things more interesting because it gives the characters something else to do.




Both are. Because every character has been affected to the Dragon King and his army thus having other things happening to them. They all play some part of the story, there's not just some random individual, off in another universe story taking place. Everyone has been affected by the events in Deception, even if it has nothing to do with the main plot itself. It's still an event that was triggered by the main plot. If Onaga never came, Sub-Zero would probably be doing something else.

He was the seventh, but we only knew two. Unless you want to include konquest mode Sub-Zero. So where is your sea of Sub-Zeros?

I'm sure nothing I said came out good considering I'm not an expert at quoting people on this website.

So you'd prefer it if ALL the good guys banded together against ALL the bad guys and just fight it out without any of the characters having their own, interesting backgrounds, personalities and goals?

Came out sloppy, so I quoted myself so you can see what I wrote to Sumac

That's what Sumac is pretty much saying, which I find to be hilarious.

Ah, your quoting him seemed to have fucked up somehow in your post, so I wasn't sure what your point was. :P

I know, It was quite hard to figure out myself

@RedSumac

Yeah, yeah, more fanboish whining about MK9.
ause it the first part of the new story arc, and of course, as standalone story it quite leave a lot of questions. I guarantee that with the release of MKX many things will be revalued.
And MK1 events in MK1 were not rushed. If anything it was MK3, which was rather condensed.
And fourth, about retcons, I was able to prove with the math and logic, that MK9 did more good to the old cast, than bad. It is exactly why very few errors look like big problems there. I can do it again, if neccessary, because I don't like when people speak lie about "botched retcons" and shit.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were perceptive enough (and maybe even old enough) to notice that during MK1-MK3 in the ninties, not only were there biographies and endings providing details about these characters, but there were also comic books which were produced by Midway that detailed the events from MK1 to MK2. The games have even on occassion referenced the character portrayals from the Malibu Comics (a perfect example being Mileena's interactions with Kitana in MK4's ending, and her bio in MK:D). Mortal Kombat was always story orientated and characters are what make a story. To say it "never existed in the first place" is laughable. You've just clearly never paid attention to it.

I personally don't see at this moment in time how any of the retcons in MK9 changed things for the better. There's too many things left unanswered and I don't feel there was a proper conclusion of the old timeline. You can produce whatever mathematics you like, but if you're going to dismiss my opinion as "fanboyish whining" well then quite frankly your numbers couldn't interest me in the slightest. It's apparent you're set in your own views and outlooks, so you're welcome to keep them.

Which are...?


Not at all. Considering, that Mortal Kombat games are not weekly series, I believe, just character development is not enough, especially considering, that plans of developers can change between the games. Every story should count and contribute to the arc. Simply putting character in the game is not good enough. He / she should be part of the story as much as possible. MKDA was a perfect example of how its done.


And I'll gladly do it. MKD story was a luckluster mess, with potential. Characters were barely connected to anything and some of them were not even connected to anything (Darrius). Sub-Zero was not an exception, which is why it looks strange when some people are talking about his development in this game.


Which game have you played, because Sub-Zero's story in MKD was about him trying to find an exit from Outworld, which was continuation of his story from MKDA? It wasn't started by Onaga and it had next to nothing with him.


It's still mean that there were more Sub-Zeroes than just two. And I never directly said or support notion about sea of Sub-Zeroes. No need to put words in my mouth.


I did not mean that. What I meant...is described above.


First, I have never said, that MK story never existed. I said, its depth was invented by fans, which the case with absolute majority of the fictional works. Once again, it seems you can't argue by just things that are already there and need to put random fictional stuff in my mouth, which somehow must prove that you are right. I guess, it's either sign of desperation or overwhelming fanboism. Or something else, which I don't want to say, yet.
Second, I have become fan of Mortal Kombat series because of its story and characters. My introduction to the MK was through the sticker album MK2. That was enough to be charmed by its characters and story. I played my first MK game only three years later. So, saying, that I did not payed atention to the MK's story is outright wrong.
Third, there were only three canonical comic books set as prequels to their respective games. Malibu comics were noncanon and had stuff that was outright controversial or stupid (Goro with superblasterminigun thing, anyone?). As for canonical ones, they gave more time to characters to shine, but their main target was to provide short backstory to the game. Because of it, there were not very detailed and there is no reason to uphold them as sacred graal of deep characterisations, because there were quite a few of that. They did not tell anything about characters, that was not in the games already.


We all set in our outlooks. Some more strange than the others. I don't see what unanswered question MK9 left, cliffhanger aside.

Considering that some people here started to invent stuff and interpret my posts completely backwards, I guess, I've got'em.

Kuai Liang is Sub-Zero number six, not seven.

Just for the record.
Also, in Deception, Sub-Zero's subplot did loosely intersect with the main plot.
In his ending, which is canon and actually set BEFORE the events of several characters' bios, Sub-Zero's new Cryomancer Armor gives him the power to survive an attack by an entire camp of Tarkatans and kill them all singlehandedly. He learned in that fight that they served the Dragon King.
As a result of killing that camp, Onaga became aware of him as a threat and sent Hotaru to assassinate him. Kenshi's bio confirms that Sub and Hotaru do actually fight each other at LEAST once. (Which Sub wins, though Hotaru survives and keeps following them)
Plus Shujinko's ending is canon about him (with Havik and the Black Dragon's help because those endings are halfway-canon as well) rounding up as many fighters as possible so he can absorb their combined powers to smash the Kamidogus and defeat Onaga. Sub-Zero was there for that, (As were Noob and Smoke, which is why Sub's Armageddon bio starts with him following Noob to the Netherealm to confront him) which means Shujinko convinced him and Kenshi to come with him and fight the Dragon King instead of finding the portal and leaving Outworld like they were trying to do.

You've got what, exactly? I don't understand why you're so smug. All you've done so far is prove that you're incapable of recognising there's depth or meaning in small stories. That's hardly an achievement for someone who claims to be interested in the overall story.

I don't get how anyone could deny that side stories are important, and that they don't matter. And even tho Sub was trying to find his way out of outworld in deception, there was something very crucial that happened during that time, Sub's ancestors spoke to him through his armor, guiding him allowing him to take down the tarktan army.

there's more story in that then most of the other forgettable characters had combined.

But im sure this will be denied and be all "fanboyism" Some people just love to stir the pot.

I am just confused how someone could say that Sub-Zero ( kuai Liang) did not have probably the best development as a character in the MK series. We actually see purpose in his actions from him trying to save his brothers soul, reform the LK, fight for earthrealm, and stop the cyborg process. Oh and also trying to train his protege, and finding out more about his cryomancer roots.

No matter how much of a "fanboy" i am ( because on this board its a sin to care a lot, just the amount allowed by certain few)

Sub-Zero had a great story it was lazy to "this time around lets make him a cyborg" Mk9 had him shine even as a cyborg, but that cyborg angle was dam lazy.

Anyway there really is no point to argue, we all can be stubborn, lets just wait till mkx and hopefully we can shut the smug people up once and for all ( or till mk11)

So, he fought some tarkatas, defeated Hotaru and hepled Shujinko, which is not very obvious. So? There was some interaction with core arc, I am not denying it, however, his significance as well as his new upgrade, was rather low in the whole scheme of things.


I am not reaching fanboy, who uses in arguments his headcanon. Am relying on facts and logic, rather than reaching (in your case it should be REACHING). You like to imagine those characters as having deep characterisation? Good for you. It doesn't mean that developers and everyone else, for that matter see them that way. And in its turn it doesn't make you a special snowflake.


You need to upgrade your reading skills. I never said, that sidestories doesn't matter.
However, as it sometimes the case with some people of a certain...disposition, I once again forced to translate what exactly I meant in a more precise details, so even you, my friend could understand.

I meant, that since MK is not your weekly TV show it doesn't have a lot of opportunities to tell stories. Games are released once per two-three years. So, spending time to develop side character with some not quite connected to the main arc story is rather pointless. Especially if said character can completely dissappear in the next game without explanation or any kind of conclusion (Nitara, Movado - Red Dragon). I am all for sidestories, just as long as they tied to the main story as tight as possible and don't waste time for something, that will not be relevant in the next game. MKDA was and still is a prime example, where every single character had some role in the story, whereas MKD is an example of jumbled mess of a bigger story.

Now, I hope you understand, right? Right?!
'Cause I am not sure, fi I can relate it even more clear...

Well the exact word you used before was "zero" significance. I thought I'd correct that slight error.

As for whether or not his upgrades were going anywhere relevant, well...we live in a world where Armageddon and then a reboot were sprung on Vogel and he had to change whatever his original plans were, so we'll never know.

Also, the Red Dragon weren't dropped just because Mavado's importance was. He was just an agent. Their leader was revealed and maybe you don't remember but he's, like, the main antagonist of MKA Konquest.

To sit here and actually state, "It's pointless to have side stories," has to be one of the most absurd things I've ever seen anyone state. The reason why I am stating this is because every fighting game has done that with their characters. It doesn't make a difference how many years it takes to release games, having something else happen to a game's characters like they do now is more interesting to have rather than, "Sub-Zero's main story is to go after the bad guy and that is it." "Kitana's main story is to go after the bad guy and that is it." "Shang Tsung's main story is to go after the bad guy and that is it."

Do you see how boring that is? If you honestly think having characters do something else rather than strictly focusing on getting rid of the main bad guy is something that is more entertaining to see than having them go through other obstacles first before reaching to the main bad guy, fine. Others, however, actually like seeing characters get developed.

Speaking of Nitara, I enjoyed how they tied her in with Ashrah and Datusha, The natural enemy of vampires and biggest threat to their immortality.. I liked both characters even more and want more of the rivalry this time around. Hopefully.

Please carry on folks....

I want to throw you into the Sun sometimes lol.

That was adorable

To be fair, there's quite a chasm between 'pointless' and 'bad'. My assumption, wrong though it may be, is that Red prefers central plot to character development and side stories. Which is certainly understandable.

Question. When Bi Han/Noob was killed in the Soulnado is it possible that Bi Han's soul split from Noob? So that Noob could continue on but not through Bi Han?

As seen in the cutscene, the dark essence of Noob spread through the whole Soulnado and caused it to explode. So it's not farfetched to think the dark essence has infected other souls, causing them to turn into wraiths as well.

Thanks for your quick response. Ok if that's the case what became of Bi Han? Is it possible the rift caused his soul to return to who he was before being killed?

We can only wait and see.