Havik deserves another chance. I always liked how he cracks his neck. I do that a lot too. lol

does it have to be Onagas heart that gets eaten? there are other dragons in the world of MK right? if Havik needed the heart of a dragon for powers don't forget about Orin and Caro...not to mention other questionable characters in transformation/animality and the possibility of more dragons not introduced...not much is ever said about the amount of dragons in MK but i would like to see a story with Havik develope around that idea.
i think they need to add more insanity onto the power hunger of his personality...make him want to eat the heart of every dragon type character in MK.
i don't use Havik much because his moves are mediocre to me and his looks have changed away from my liking...i dunno i just think he would look much cooler as an all out skeleton.
i could see alot of potential for this character to turn completely evil and very power hungry to be a king. i say stay.

Onaga's resurrection powers, as far as we know, are unique to him. We don't even know what race of "dragon" he really is or if he's the only one of his kind, since he's clearly got a humanoid, bipedal body.

Also, the usual kind of dragon you see in fantasy stories, the giant serpents, are extinct in Outworld. There was just one egg left in Deadly Alliance, the one in the Lava Shrine that when it hatched, Onaga's spirit came out of it and possessed Reptile.

I was thinking about it. I didn't want to ask and be all pushy though

Ahh, it's quite alright. I had Havik going on for quite some time, it's definitely time for a character change.

Hotaru

Oh boy... This character has a heck of a lot of shit that happens with him, and despite the fact that he’s another one of my favorites, still, there’s a lot of things that happen with this character and everything needs to be fixed. Pronto.

There are laws that all of nature must follow. He has imposed order on those who would create chaos, and Outworld is one of those realms who has been having havoc wreaking for the longest time. Since Onaga has returned, his military forced peace throughout his domain. Hotaru’s duty is to make sure that the king’s return brings order to the war-torn realm once more.

He fought against Baraka’s race years ago. He vowed to protect Lei Chen, a city in Outworld, from Kahn’s attacks. Though, since time has changed, he is now working side by side with Baraka and the Tarkatans. He wants to stop the uprising against Oanaga. And since Baraka’s race has brought word to Sub-Zero, Hotaru will hunt down Sub-Zero and bring justice.

And in the end, he brought Sub-Zero to the Dragon King and showed everyone what would happen if any dared to challenge the authority to the Dragon King.


That is it, that is Hotaru’s story... But Hotaru was quite a very popular character in-game. Who actually mentioned him throughout their story: Kenshi, Dairou, Darrius, Havik, Sub-Zero (Despite his story nor ending has mentioned Hotaru, he is listed as an enemy in his biography card) That’s five characters that Hotaru somewhat is involved with. He’s basically one of the characters who deals with plenty of other characters within one game. Name another character who has to deal with others, whether they’re helping or against, that is somewhat similar in the way that Hotaru deals with.

He wants to bring Order and Order only. He’s your typical demand and conquer. That’s all he wants and if he has to side with the evil to get his wish, then it shall be done. Hotaru is a leader, I can actually see him being quite a very evil character to be honest. He could be a good sub-boss if you see my drift here with the kind of person he is in-game. Though, many would disagree and I really don’t blame you, but this suggestion just popped up out of the blue.

His moves for this guy is quite interesting. Yeah, 2 moves in deception then receiving two more in Armageddon. Despite that I hated the teleport and his other new one, Lava Burst is the one move that we’ve never seen before. A blast of a bright light we all thought was just another name for a fire bolt, but instead of having him blasting that bolt out towards his enemy, he instead fires it at the ground, causing a pop-up move to occur, opening a big combo afterwards. I say, keep Grasshopper and the Lava Burst, but there has to be at least two other new moves that Hotaru can possess that isn’t something that another character already possesses.

His appearance shouldn’t change at all. He’s a leader and a soldier therefore keep the armor. I liked his secondary costume than his primary, it’s very intimidating to be honest.

I liked this character and should return, he’s got potential to fit in one more appearance in the MK series.

So, let’s debate. Should Hotaru stay or leave?

It's strange that Hotaru's the polar opposite of Havik and yet I like Hotaru so much more. Where Havik's desire for chaos makes his motivations sound lame or contrived, Hotaru comes off as much more of a zealot. Someone that wants order and truly believes that what he's doing is right.

To me, that makes for a much more believable character. Havik might be a psycho, or he might be a zealot (or both) as well, but with Havik, I just never thought that his story fit the look of the character and simply the idea of "chaos" always equated to "I just want to start sh!t" and it somehow seemed petty and small.

But with Hotaru, his desire to bring everyone under the yoke of order makes him seem much more dangerous and oppressive. It's the kind of evil that thinks it's good and that's a kind of evil we haven't really seen in MK before. To me, that's fantastic.

As for his look, I dig it. His first costume, with the flags, while slightly Yoshimitsu-esque, is still a very unique look for MK. His second suit of armor is so so.

I almost think that his outfits should have a little more detail on them though. Maybe some chain mail somewhere, plus his face needs more detail and his hair should look better than it does. Not quite sure how. Oh, and why does he just have white eyes? Dairou's from Orderrealm and he has eyes sooo....WTF?

I think that Hotaru needs to break away from serving people that will bring order and attempt to bring his own idea of order, starting specifically with Mortal Kombat (the tournament).

His story did have a lot of threads throughout MKD, but he needs less "enemies" and more of a "rival" to contend with. As much as "Chaos" vs "Order" seems like a great idea, I think that it should be something more practical and less conceptual.

Something like, maybe Hotaru takes over the Lin Kuei while Sub Zero is in Outworld (for some reason) because he wants to use this "army" to bring Order to Earthrealm and Sub Zero has to come back and fight to get his clan back.

Either way, I see alot of potential in Hotaru's story. He's a zealot and his motivations are different than others in MK. Yes, Havik's motivation is chaos, but again, the idea of just messing with stuff seems so much smaller than the idea of forcing people in to "order."

I HATE the whole Orderrealm and Chaosrealm idea. Not a fan of those at all. I'd have Hotaru get trapped in Earthrealm (say because all of the portals are closed by the Gods), hence the taking over of the Lin Kuei while Sub Zero's stuck in Outworld. Just an example.

The only aprt that I'm not really a fan of in regards to Hotaru: His moves SUCK. They stole the animation for Sub Zero's ground freeze, then basically gave him a modified version of Liu Kang's bicycle kick. Lame. He needs more moves. He has a naginata which he could use for at least one special move. But yeah, the MK team needs to be a bit more creative in this regard.

VERDICT: STAY. I'm not horribly passionate that Hotaru must be in the next MK game, but I do think that he has potential, so long as they stay away from the order vs chaos angle, otherwise he's just an idea and not a character. I'm sure I'm probably contradicting myself because I basically said that Havik wasn't a character because he wanted chaos.

To me, wanting order simply makes a lot more sense than wanting chaos simply for the aim of chaos. Order makes sense in terms of society, but wanting choas? Not so much. Anyways, give Hotaru something new to do and someone new to fight (or a new reason to fight someone old) and I'll be okay. Again, he's not a "must" character, but he's pretty decent.

Hotaru: Just looking at this character pisses me off. He looks like a Soul Calibur reject. I can't stand him. Whenever I see him it makes me think the MK team is giving a middle finger to all of the MK fans who want cool MK characters. As far as his story goes I don't really care for that either.

The first problem with his character are his motives. He wants order, but why? Because he is from order realm? I don't care if it is a realm based on order a character needs a fleshed out back story for being such a justice nazi. He's also a really dumb charater in the MK universe. He joins forces with Onaga thinking he could bring order. Does he not know what evil looks like. Onaga reaks of evil the only thing missing from his design was a curled mustache. He also locks up Shujinko for breaking curfew after they had befriended each other. Why would anyone like this character? Not even Batman would be that big of a dick in the name of Justice. And that's a character with a legit reason for wanting order.

So lets do the math shall we. A poor character design that belongs in a different fighting game, plus bad characterization, plus not having a good story equals, Hotaru is a shitty character that should never be back again.

I say GO AND NEVER COME BACK!

But the fact that he wants order is what makes him an interesting character. He thinks that peace comes from the loss of all freedom. To me, that's the kind of Order he seems to be about.

Why does he want Order? There are a variety of reasons why this could be... I mean, think of all the reasons why someone would want order... To control people, to end wars, to restrict freedoms, to kill off opposition... That's why he works. Because I always got from him that he believed in what he was doing.

Again, he's a zealot. He's almost like a Nazi in a way, or at least a fascist. He's wants to impose what he sees as being the right order on everyone else. To me, he's a much more interesting character than "the cleric of chaos" Havik for this reason. His motivations can have depth, whereas Havik's cannot. Chaos for the sake of chaos. That's Havik. That's as deep as his story pool goes.

I can understand your not liking his costume. It is rather Soul Calibur-esque. But that doesn't mean it can't fit in MK. I mean, it's not like every guy has to look like a ninja or a god and every woman has to look like a skank. I think that his style fits well within MK because it's a little unique. I'll grant you, his second outfit is kinda plain.

Maybe in the next game they can find something that's a little less suit of armor and a bit more leathers, robes etc.

Memory is faded, but I believe Hotaru was tracking Subzero under Onaga's orders. Though I do remember in Kenshi's ending that Hotaru does a blinding flash to temporarily stun the two, but since Kenshi is blind, he guarded the attack and dispatched Hotaru before he could harm Subzero. Kind of jazzy I guess.

As for Hotaru's status, I think we all know by now I'm more of a Havik guy. With a strong story update and a complete visual redesign, I could go for him. Currently, I find him really bland, but that was true of Mileena and Kai, and I fell completely in love with those characters after that they were revamped.

As he stands, I find nothing attractive about him. Havik is insane; his motivations don't need justification. Hotaru's story decisions are really irrational when it comes to interacting with the rest of the cast. He's trying to kill Subzero even though he's clearly an earth realm benefactor, and he imprisoned Shujinko for multiple decades over a lame miscommunication (I can't remember exactly, but wasn't he arrested for curfew or some shit like that?).

Speaking of which, it doesn't matter how pro-order you are: if you're willing to allow for so many frivolous arrests that it takes ten plus years for one man to go to trial, that's just stupidly inefficient. I'm sure his convictions about order root in utilitarianism, but congesting your own court system is not utilitarian!

I'm not going to completely write him off the page like Darrius, but unless there's a huge change in his character, I say gone.

I'm sorry Hotaru fans, but I really don't like this guy. Yes, there are good things from order, but to be that obsessed with it takes some sort of motivation, and there is none for Hotaru. I can understand Havik being about chaos, because he is from chaos realm, and logical thinking can't be found in chaos realm hence the name.

Having a character wanting order is an intresting idea, but it is poorly executed with Hotaru. His motives don't make sense, he's dumb, and he's an asshole. What's there to like?

Yes, in Hotaru's story, he was tracking Sub-Zero down, but in Sub-Zero's story, there's nothing mentioned anywhere about having Hotaru tracking him down. Instead, he was facing against Baraka and his Tarkatans. That's what I don't really get. Sub-Zero's story he's doing nothing with Hotaru, he's trying to find more history of his ancestors and the armor that he has.

With Kenshi, Sub-Zero finds him dying and the two work together and for some odd reason, this is where he's stating to Kenshi that Hotaru has been tracking him down.

So, Sub-Zero's story is so not cannon then if he's working with Kenshi and knows that Hotaru is tracking them down all because he slayed a Tarkatan warrior...

That's what I don't get. Basically that Sub-Zero's story has no mention of Hotaru whatsoever, but with Kenshi, there we see Sub-Zero mentioning the fact that Hotaru is after him. Or it could be like a series of events, since in Sub-Zero's ending, he was fighting the Tarkatan army, Hotaru could have seen him do that, and started hunting him down. That could be one theory. I don't know. That's really all I was saying though.

That's an odd complaint considering how many characters' motivations we take for granted. Why is Scorpion so devoted to his clan that he feels hellbound and determined to avenge them? Why is Sonya Blade so dedicated to the Special Forces? Why does Nightwolf oppose evil?

I mean naturally, there can...and I would also say should be...more to Hotaru's motivations and backstory as to why he's so devoted to order and excelled in the Seidan Guard. But in his defence...he's only really been in one game. (And Armageddon, which had virtually no story).
How many characters have been in almost every game and have less backstory?



Because to Hotaru there is no good or evil....only order and chaos. Onaga, in his tyranny and oppressive rule of Outworld...would/ve/could've brought order to Outworld.



Did you ever stop to think that maybe we weren't supposed to like Hotaru for doing that?

That's like saying "I hate Shao Kahn because he wants to conquer the world."


Anyway....I used to not care for Hotaru that much, but he's grown on me.

I think what works best about him is how, while he wants peace and order...which makes him sound like a potential good guy...he's such an overzealous dickwad about it, he becomes almost villainous. He makes for a good antagonist without being a typical evil-doer...which I think is a welcome change of pace from the usual "I'm evil because evil is fun!" bad guys we're used to seeing in Mortal Kombat.

Although I didn't care for the flags on his back, I think his armor is pretty bad ass. I like him best with the helmet. He was also good to use, but I think a lot of that is owed to Pi Gua.

For his future, I think he can make a fun antagonist for almost anyone. They could continue his thing with Sub-Zero and build that into a rivalry, but definitely they need to put more into it. Because in Deception it was just "Hotaru doesn't like Sub-Zero because Sub-Zero inadvertantly pissed him off....and Sub-Zero doesn't even know Hotaru exists."

There can be some potential depth there. Since Sub-Zero is based on a ninja and Hotaru on a samurai, there's a historical nod there as samuari and ninja were enemies. Hotaru's devotion to the Seidan Guard parallels the loyalty Sub-Zero once had for the Lin Kuei before he abandoned the clan. However, with Hotaru fanatical devotion to order, he represents conformity...while Sub-Zero has always been his own man, which represents individuality.
Yeah, I'm getting deep there.

Meanwhile, Hotaru might like the brand of order Raiden is looking to impose on Earth and offer an alliance with him. There's a lot of other stuff I can imagine Hotaru doing, but those two points stick out to me the most.

I vote Hotaru stay.

Your Scorpion argument is really weak. We learn that Scorpion is avenging his clan(probably some of his close friends and allies), and his family. That seems like a good reason to be pissed off, and want vengence. Also the other characters are good, and they're using their abilites to help save the world. Kind of like most heroes in media.

The biggest problem with Hotaru is there isn't enough back story to understand why he does this, and that makes a lot of his actions not add up.

And we should just assume Hotaru has no friends, allies, or family also devoted to order?
And the others are good because....they're good..?

Replace "good" with "order" and Hotaru's no different.
I think the problem is that you can't grasp a character who has philosophy or belief system that doesn't match up to your own.

Like I said earlier in this thread, there's no rule that says you have to agree with every character's beliefs.

Hotaru was one of the coolest characters in MKD if you ask me.
His armour was awesome, especially his alt with the helmet.

I thought he had some of the best moves in MKD with the grasshopper and lava moves, he could have had a few more though.
I reckon he could do with a weapon change too, I wasnt feeling the Naginata.
Other than that I liked his story and his whole look and feel.

I say STAY!

Isn't my favorite character, but he (or a character like him) almost seems necessary if they want to keep the Chaos/Order thing going. I say stay.

no. hotaru has alright moves but his design is messed up. and he is so boring to me, story wise. he joins with onaga because he wants ORDER, he has no good or evil intentions, he just wants order.

hhummm this sounds like a character that should be in an action/ adventure game where you choose whether he is bringing good order or evil order. if you have ever played INFAMOUS, you know what im talikng about.

lol he does not fit in a fighting game universe.

I like how people have no problem going "Oh, angels are from Heaven, of course they're pure good" or "Oh, he's a demon from Hell, of course he's evil. he's not a person, he's a being made of evilness."

But they absolutely cannot grasp the idea that Order and Chaos are ALSO fundamental forces of nature just like Good and Evil, and that there can be a whole realm of order-beings and a whole realm of chaos-beings.

Chaos and Order aren't forces though, they're states of existence. Good and evil aren't forces either, they're moral categories. As a matter of fact, chaos is a type of evil because it defies meaning and purpose, the basis for morality.

Order is actually a good thing. Hotaru isn't dumb because he wants order, he's dumb because he wants it in conjunction with nazi-esque oppression. Justice is a component of order. Hotaru is so freaking far fror being just that it's ridiculous. But Hotaru's philosophy just seems stupidly inefficient and arbitrary in places.

Says who?

Good, evil, order, chaos, justice, injustice....these are abstract concepts. Where do they come from? To quote George Carlin:
"We made them up. We made the whole fucking thing up."

Part of what makes Hotaru interesting to me...and a potentially entertaining antagonist...is that his view of something that should be regarded as "good" is so skewed and dickheaded.
Always remember: Hitler thought he was the good guy.

I don't agree with it. I don't have to agree with it. I'm just interested in the conflict it'll cause.

Well, first off, Hitler structured his Aryan philosophy from the writings of Nietzsche, the man who pioneered the theory that there is no morality. Hitler did not believe he was good because he didn't believe in objective good.

Second, if Carlin (or Nietzsche, or Sartre, or Heidegger) is right (and I think there's good reason to believe they're not), it would be permissible to rape babies all the time and we'd have no competant reason to stop people who did.

But that's just the thing.

We as a collective human race, for the most part, would prefer not to get killed, robbed, or raped. So we call such activities "evil."
Since we're all stuck on this mud-ball of a planet together, the least we can do is tolerate one another and try not to hassel anyone else. So we call those activites "good."

And we tack other little things onto those concepts...anarchy, justice, love, infidelity, etc....and make out to be laws and/or build up with a bunch of religeous connotations to justify those concepts and create a sense that there's an inherrant meaning beyond "I don't want to be eaten by my neighbor and I'm fairly certain you don't either."

Sadly, some people...such as Hitler...take it upon themselves to enforce their personal definitions of "good" and "evil" and whatever else and tragically, people suffer for it. We call it evil. He and his ilk called it making his country great.
That's why nihilism frightens many people because some take it as an excuse to be total assholes.

Is it permissable to rape children? Well, the basic human decency that we've evolved and agreed upon as a society says no.
Sadly, there are things out there that don't all match up under the same standard....like women's rights, homosexuality, and race.

To use another quote...now from the Simpsons:
"Some people...well...are just jerks."

Morality is only subjective in the real world.

In fiction, people have souls, Heaven and Hell are real places, and Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are elemental components of the universe not unlike how Air, Earth, Water, and Fire are supernatural "cardinal elements" the world is composed of.

Maybe it's just all the Dungeons and Dragons I play, but I'm quite accustomed to the idea that in fictional universes with gods and magic and outer planes of reality, morality and alignment are a type of undeniable energy that creatures and realms are composed of, and some living beings, despite being sentient, just don't get to choose their own belief systems, they're born "always lawful-evil" or "always true neutral" or what have you. It's all fairly straightforward.