But the problem with social contract theory is that it can't explain the phenomena of altruism. If a man kills himself by pushing a child out of a buses way, social contract theory has no explanation. He obviously wasn't doing it for unconscious reasons of protecting himself by sanctioning social values. He's dead, he doesn't need protection.

And if social contract morality is all we have to work with, then it's really not sad that people reject human decency. There's no such thing as decency. There are no jerks, either. These words imply an objective standard, but in order for oppressing women and homosexuals to be wrong, there has to be a standard we're obliged to follow.

Social contract theory says "it's in your best interest to follow moral laws." Moral theory says "you should follow moral laws despite your interest." So if you tell a fiendish individual about the social contract, he could say "that's okay, I'm good," as he heads off to his baby raping contest and there would be no rational reason to stop him.

That's the catch, though: I believe morality is fundamentally rational.

I want to call a quick time-out and ask what it is exactly we're debating here?

Are we simply debating our own personal philosophies on life, morality, and society...or are we discussing the validity or invalidity of Hotaru's views on order?

I mean, I think this is an interesting discussion and I could offer a response to your latest post, but to tell the truth, I'm not sure what point or purpose I should be trying to make now.

You're right, I sort lost focus on the character part of the discussion. I guess my main point is that I don't get Hotaru's love for order. Even if everything is arbitrary, there's got to be at least a reason for the differentiating convictions. I just don't get why Hotaru is so loony for order.

Subzero and the lot are pro-order, but not just for order's sake. That seems reasonable enough. But Hotaru's methods, not so much. Havik has the insanity defense, so I don't think his motives need nearly as much justification.

Hotaru and Havik but no Orderrealm and Chaosrealm? I could roll with that. In fact, I think it's about the only way characters from those realms could be palatable to me.

Even though I like his fruity personality and enjoy his ridiculously powerful attacks, I have to admit I developed a bit of an anti-Hotaru bias the moment I saw what he looks like but learned that he WASN'T Fujin. Who the hell in the design department came up with that idea?

For MK 9 I could go either way on adding him as a character. He's certainly entertaining enough, when he's not mired in his coma-inducing homeworld plotline. He's just so chipper.

the only reason people fight(not including sports) is they have a difference of opinion. all this good evil chaos order is an opinion of someone. everyone always think that ther opinion is right, so they fight each other or argue.

i have one question though, how can hotaru be any different from havik, when he agrees with "EVIL" as long as it is in "ORDER"???? and havik loves evil and chaos. example: isnt organized crime(evil order) more dangerous then a group of criminals who are just mindless and crazy( evil chaos)????
can chaos be "good", because order can be "evil".

maybe im not understanding this......maybe their method of evil is different like brute force vs stealth, but both are killers???

They are different because of the codes they live by. To them, there is no good and evil. They don't look at life the same way we do. Shao Kahn and Onaga both wanted very similar things -- to rule the realms. It's only characters like Hotaru and Havik that look at the means rather than the ends, though. Hotaru absolutely loathes Shao Kahn, because of the mess he weaves over the realms. Onaga, however, kept things clean and tidy. Just think of Havik and Hotaru as The Odd Couple, with Havik as the messy one and Hotaru as the one with OCD -- only they will kill for their way.

Keep in mind that these characters are not human. We are not meant to agree with them on a human level. They represent two extremes -- both of which are toxic to the human condition. It's a balance between order and chaos (replace the word "chaos" with "freedom" and views on it change completely). Society needs rules, sure; but Hotaru and Havik are an examination of where police become nazis and where freedom fighters become terrorists.

Hotaru would love Heaven, because there is order sustained there. Havik would love hell, because it is a sea of insanity and depravity. If hell were a giant prison, Hotaru would love that, though. If Heaven allowed people to do whatever they wanted, Havik would probably love that, as well.

As far as humans are concerned, they are both "evil." What I love about these characters is that their brand of "evil" is so warped. Hotaru is pretty much a zealot. He believes in what he does, but he goes about it so rigidly that the lives sacrificed at the alter mean nothing to him. That is what I love about Hotaru. I think the execution of his story was done pretty poorly. If they felt the need to blow their load with the order/chaos story in Deception; I think Hotaru's nemesis in the story should have been Baraka. Their mutant race represents the animalistic chaos that thrived under Shao Kahn. Hotaru seems like the kind of guy who would hate the analogical rats the Tarkata represent. It would have done service to both Hotaru and Baraka's story if under Onaga, Hotaru led the extermination of the Tarkatan hordes, and Baraka fought against the oppression -- finding himself fighting for the same goal as Earthrealm's warriors, to his surprise. Then Hotaru could have gotten the "rub" by killing Baraka in the story, and be set up as a force to be reckoned with in a true sequel to Deception.

I don't like how many endings Hotaru died in during Deception, to be honest. The order/chaos thing felt tacked-on, and Hotaru was thrown right into the deep-end. I'd like to see him return, perhaps, although he does rank second to Havik with me. Just because Havik isn't so rigidly bound by the story -- and didn't die all the time in Deception. What I loved is that they saved off on Hotaru vs. Havik, which is a big "money fight" for the MK universe from a creative point of view, in my opinion. Both characters just need to be more established.

Xia mentioned this plotline, but it is one that I wanted to see a true sequel to Deception, as well: Hotaru joins up with Raiden. Who else is as likely to establish order than a pissed off Lightning God who hates how messy mortals have made the realms? He sounds like the kind of god Hotaru would pray to. A story with Hotaru, a ressurrected and warped Liu Kang and Raiden waging war on the realms is...interesting, to say the least. Especially when their parallels are a team consisting of Fujin, Kung Lao and Havik.

You use the phrase "true sequel to Deception" a lot.

Are you outright refusing to accept Armageddon as canon, or just wishing it weren't? 'Cause the extra Unchained endings and the bios posted on the net...that all happened.

i don't care about Hotaru,his story or looks i just don't think he fits the bill to be an MK character....my reasons aside...gone.

Oh no, I am accepting Armageddon as canon, but with a sad face. I could write a better story in two seconds in my head than they came up with for it. To me, a true sequel to Deception would have only featured characters that had a logical reason to being brought back.

Fine. Give us your pitch. I won't even hold you to the whole "two seconds" thing.

I totally thought you were going to follow up with the "Princess Bride" quote "I do not think it means what you think it means."

Love that movie.

Hotaru should be gone. Finish him!

Alright.

In a proper sequel to Deception, it would be logical to continue the main plot points forward. Raiden seemed to have the most going on in Deception, truthfully. He would return, and continue to impose his wrath upon the realms. He'd likely find allies in Hotaru and his resurrected Liu Kang.

Meanwhile, Kung Lao and Fujin struggle with the path their closest allies seem to be on. The vampire realm would hopefully we re-addressed, as that was a forgotten plot point. Ashrah has either achieved purification, or is continuing on her quest to do so. Ermac has helped Earthrealm's warriors, and is now a valued champion for Outworld. Li Mei struggles with her dark nature, and the death of Bo' Rai Cho during Deception has left her feeling alone. She fights in her Master's memory against darkness -- both that of the realms' and her own. Kitana, Sonya, Jax and Johnny Cage each deal with their defeat at the hands of Onaga in different ways. Mileena continues to rule Edenia under the guise of being Princess Kitana. Havik's resurrection of Shao Kahn leads to Kabal feeling betrayed by the Black Dragon (remember what Shao Kahn's forces did to Kabal?) and he takes Kira and retreats to the shadows and devises a new plan for the Black Dragon clan. Kobra, who is killed by Kira in the Black Dragon proving is resurrected for the sole purpose of bringing his chaotic approach to martial arts to Shao Kahn's forces, and makes it his goal to track down Kabal and Kira, and eliminate them.

Yeah, I'm not going to go into more detail than that, but in there you have 18 returning characters with their arcs already roughly mapped out. You obviously need more detail than that, but there you go. And of course you'd probably need Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Noob Saibot, Kenshi and even Blaze back. If you want to know specifically how these would all fit in together, I will go into more detail if you like?

If you are looking for a better plot for Armageddon, how's this? Instead of having every character return...why? Because the realms are too torn to remain separate? Okay. Instead of that, how about Havik's Deception ending proves to be true, and he obtains Onaga's heart. In the pursuit of absolute chaos, Havik resurrects every deceased fighter in the MK universe. The goals and grievances of the dead once again become relevant to those combatants who survive.

The Princess Bride is indeed a great movie, but I do not see why you applied that quote to what I was saying. Do you feel that Armageddon felt like a true story, and not a gimmick?

I like that the "proper sequel" to Deception makes no mention of Shujinko. It wasn't like he was the game's central character or anything.

Killing Bo' off after he's finally found his feet as a mentor character? Iffy at best.

It's awesome that Kitana, Jax, Sonya, and Cage are dealing with their defeat in different ways. It might have been even better if we knew what those ways were.

How would Kabal feel betrayed by the Black Dragon because of Havik's actions? Kabal's the head of the new BD.

If Kahn can resurrect people, why settle for Kobra? Why not raid a Centaur or Shokan graveyard?

Re: Armageddon. Even if Havik resurrects every dead fighter, that doesn't explain bringing back everyone from the series. Most of them weren't even dead, just put on the shelf. Also, if Havik really wanted to wreck eveyone's shit, why bother with the various cannon fodder characters? Just bring back Kung Lao classic.

Anyway, there's two cents. Don't spend it all at once.

I think Hotaru could be a great character if they just change his story a little bit. So, I say yes.

I like that the "proper sequel" to Deception makes no mention of Shujinko. It wasn't like he was the game's central character or anything.

Um, in his own ending he dies. I thought that wrapped his character up nicely, and made it a nice tragic story. Shujinko rights his wrong, but is still judged by the gods. Greek tragedy right there. Shujinko would not be back, as Kung Lao would take the reigns of the story again.

Killing Bo' off after he's finally found his feet as a mentor character? Iffy at best.

I love the Bo' Rai Cho character, but eventually the student needs to surpass the teacher. Li Mei needs to go out on her own at some point.

It's awesome that Kitana, Jax, Sonya, and Cage are dealing with their defeat in different ways. It might have been even better if we knew what those ways were.
I told you that if you wanted more detail you could ass. There was no need to be a smart-ass about it. Smart-ass.

How would Kabal feel betrayed by the Black Dragon because of Havik's actions? Kabal's the head of the new BD.
Alright, this I will give you. I typed that in a rush, so I messed that up. What I meant was that Kabal feels betrayed by Havik.

If Kahn can resurrect people, why settle for Kobra? Why not raid a Centaur or Shokan graveyard?
Perhaps he could? Where did I say that he didn't? Maybe there is something "special" about Kobra? Perhaps Havik enjoys the chaos there, and not so much the power.

Re: Armageddon. Even if Havik resurrects every dead fighter, that doesn't explain bringing back everyone from the series. Most of them weren't even dead, just put on the shelf. Also, if Havik really wanted to wreck eveyone's shit, why bother with the various cannon fodder characters? Just bring back Kung Lao classic.
You're arguing against one timeline by using another. Yeah, Armageddon and Deception revealed that a lot of characters that, in my opinion, should have been dead, where just sitting on their hands. My story wouldn't do that, though. A character like Sheeva wouldn't have been picking flowers for three games. She would have been rotting in the Netherrealm after being killed in MK3 by Kano, looking to help raise the Shokan race back into prosperity against Shao Kahn -- only to find Goro fighting alongside him again and feeling abandoned by her own leader.

But no, let's undo years of storyline. That'd be awesome.

Anyway, there's two cents. Don't spend it all at once.

I think you're overrating the worth of your words. Now I would like to point out that we are incredibly off topic, and that this is meant to be about Hotaru. I feel so sorry that you feel the urge to defend the Armageddon storyline.

Death doesn't mean anything in this series.



Li Mei can go out on her own while Bo' trains the next generation. The good guys need a stopgap mentor figure while Raiden's busy pretending to be the Anti-Monitor.



Apparently, I'm the number one ASSassin. No one tell Travis Touchdown.



Zombies = chaos. More powerful zombies = more chaos.



It's a series hallmark.



Oh, I'm not defending Armageddon's storyline. It's trash. But just because I don't think the canon story is all that great, it doesn't mean I'm going to fall head over heels for your version either. Keep in mind, I'm not bashing your post. I like the basic groundwork you've laid out and am throwing some ideas your way to tighten it up. Maybe next time don't be such a Defensive Davey.

No, you were most definitely a smart-ass. If that's not how you meant to sound, you definitely came off that way. Be aware of yourself. I could address those points, but most of them were irrelevant, anyway. The point is, I don't think Armageddon was a focused and effective sequel to what Deception gave us. Of course it's canon, I'm not ignoring, but when I talk about a "true sequel," I mean a hypothetical follow-up to Deception that actually meant shit.

I dunno if I agree that Deception needed a sequel. I mean, as far as Onaga goes, I was ready to see him defeated. I was okay with that arc coming to an end with Shujinko or Scorpion or whoever it may have been victorious, and a new arc starting up to follow Raiden's new turn or perhaps another villain.

And I like that Armageddon basically fixed everything that MK4 did wrong with Shinnok and made him an archvillain who, at least in my opinion, looked relevant and had a relatively clever plan.

Since most of my reasons have been already listed, stay.

Could not care about the original cast after they have outgrown their welcome, DA and Deception brought characters that weren't in the kindergarden league of MK4.

Anyone ever reasoned that Hotaru's actions are motivated by being a denizen of Seido? I mean it could be their nature to instinctively settle for order. They aren't humans.

I wasn't really applying it to the subject so much as Razor's syntax. Whenever I hear someone say, "You use the phrase..." or "You keep on saying...", I automatically finish it off with Inigo's line. I've only been loosely paying attention to the debate.

Though I have been seeing one point come up multiple times that seems to be without grounds. A few have said that Hotaru's obsession for order is due to the fact that he's not human. Reasonable motives have nothing to do with being human, it's simply about being logical. Logical people act with motive.

Unless we're playing with the possibility of an illogical race, but I can't even get my head around what that would even mean.

Ah, well that's a relief. You being one of my favourite posters here, it would hurt my feelings if you thought I was an idiot.

But I think you are essentially touching the core of the issue with Hotaru. He's of a race where the ends are the goal, and the means and motives are not addressed. It's probably one of the most advanced concepts MK has given us, really. It might be why the character is hard for some people to swallow? I'm not saying you don't "get him" as an insult towards you or anything, I'm just saying that the character is so far from the norm that it requires bargaining from some people to accept their direction.



Oh, I was happy with Onaga's defeat, too. I just don't think we needed a game where EVERY character was brought back. And even then so, the story could have been done a lot better. I'll grant you that characters like Shinnok, Kai and even Stryker got more of go this time around; but those things could have been done alternatively (Shinnok would be hardest, because he was a been and gone villain).

I like Deadly Alliance and Deception being a one-two hit arc of the story. But from there, I think going forward would have been great. They could have used the concepts you suggested. Another villain with Raiden being this dark, potential threat to the realms would have been great. It could have really expanded on the whole order vs. chaos theme that was merely touched upon in Deception, too.

A game that followed on from Deception, and didn't make the game feel (almost) completely irrelevant would have gone much appreciated by me. I know some stuff did happen in MKD, and it did hold up, but we had some amazing central players doing something on stage, and then there are suddenly 60 characters on stage, a lot of them without motivation to be there, and suddenly the important guys just aren't as important anymore.

But that's just my opinion. Armageddon was not all bad -- I'm not saying that. I just think that a sequel with 24-30 characters could have been done, and it could have moved the story much more forward and into the new era itself. Hell, I don't think we'd need a new era if characters were properly established and such. But I'm also someone who was a bit miffed by some of the characters back for Deception. I know a lot of people are huge fans of some of the characters that randomly returned, but I felt it stepped on the momentum the story had a lot. And it was a nice shock the Deadly Alliance won, but with them being wiped out anyway (Or so we think! Muwahaha!), Kung Lao would have made a fine main protagonist in the war against The Dragon King. But more on that when it comes time to discuss Kung Lao.

Sorry, I went a bit off topic there. It just becomes hard to discuss one character when they connect to so many, Icebaby.

the mk story line really is confusing. even the BASIC concepts. example: how does a guy with a undeafeatable ARMY LOSE EVER?? how does a god like raiden lose to shang and quan-chi, even if he lost some his some of his power?? he should still have a higher BASE power than sorcerers or magicians.

thats why i judge if fighters should comeback based on iconic level, gamplay and personality because the stories are just plain confusing and sometimes just stupid.

The reason Onaga's army was undefeatable is he has the power to resurrect people at will. If Onaga himself is dead, there's not going to be any more resurrecting going on, is there? He didn't die in a war, where the army could have helped him, he was fuckin' poisoned by his own advisor.

And when the Deadly Alliance brought the army back, Raiden BLEW THEM ALL UP. If you don't have a body left, there's nothing to resurrect.

That's kinda obvious, don't ya think?
I don't know why this stuff is so hard for you to get, I've had no problem following along since I was ten years old. Then again, maybe the problem is that the story was simpler when I was a kid, and as I grew up, it grew up with me and got more complex, and I was able to understand it because I was old enough to handle complex things...and unfortunately, not everyone on the internet is a grown adult.
Then again, maybe you are a grown man and you're just bad at paying attention or don't care hard enough to try. I guess I wouldn't really know.