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Mortal Kombat X
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DeLaGeezy
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MKO's Sig of the Week Contest - Coming Soon! PM for details on how you can be a part of it!
 •03/14/2015 04:49 PM (UTC) •
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Blade4693 Wrote:
Yes, really. I know this really has nothing to do with your complaint but if we compare story significance im thinking the females will be on top in the game. Cassie more or less seems like she will be the primary protagonist, and Mileena seems to be playing a major role in this game as well.


Good point.

While there may not be that many females on the roster, a few of them are playing a big role in MKX and it's story. Sonya is a center piece and Mileena has been given an important role in the story. Cassie is the face of the whole "new generation" movement and Story Mode seems to revolve around her point of view and her parents.
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L-BowShot
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Check out my MK vids on my Youtube Channel

https://m.youtube.com/?#/channel/UC2SJfcFqCc7pySa1uS5Xfew

Find me on XBL GT: Icy X PSN: IcyX_88

Want to make me a sig? Something simple with Reptile elbowing in mk9 would be great :)

 •03/14/2015 04:53 PM (UTC) •
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If you expected more than 1/4th of roster to be female, then you're foolish. Youre lucky to get 6 even.
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T-rex
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 •03/14/2015 04:53 PM (UTC) •
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DG1OA Wrote:
You know the funny thing about most misogynists? How they so badly want sausage fests in their media, yet look down on homosexuality.

Seeing as a lot of misogynistic losers are also homophobic, it's like the heterosexual ones are conditioned to hate who they're sexually attracted to, while the closeted gay ones hate being attracted to their own gender. Sexual frustration in both cases, lol.

Not that being strictly sexist or homophobic is any less pathetic than being both.

>MUH SOGGY KNEES

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Windice
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 •03/14/2015 04:55 PM (UTC) •
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L-BowShot Wrote:
If you expected more than 1/4th of roster to be female, then you're foolish. Youre lucky to get 6 even.


Why? I thought someone said this will have the most girl characters or something but they didn't really keep there promise with the roster number either so idk.
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Cyborg
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 •03/14/2015 05:10 PM (UTC) •
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Zero_Jade Wrote:
But for the people saying that its all about story relevance etc etc - you do realise its up to NRS who is relevant to the story? But anyway that's another issue. Its a shame Li Mei likely won't be playable, or Sareena and Ashrah for that matter - from what we know a lot of the game is based around the Outworld war and the Netherealm war, so I feel these ladies would have fit in well.

I'm not going to complain about the number of females as it's what I was expecting, but the diversity of the roster in general in terms of archetypes (not playstyles, as I doubt we'll have any clones) is lacking a bit for me. That, and the fact that about 95% of the revealed returnees were playable in MK9.


Of course it's up to them who is relevant to story, but certain characters can't just be plugged in to fulfill every type of role. Sonya isn't gonna play a mercenary. Kitana isn't gonna play the comedic relief. Nitara isn't gonna be Earth's chosen one. Sareena isn't gonna be a Special Forces agent...

They have a story direction they want to take, and the characters they choose are for a reason. Like I said, if you are purposely denying someone's inclusion in favor of someone else, JUST for gender variety, that in itself is just silly. Go with the character that best fits the role. They also have popularity, demand, and their own personal favorites to consider.

Let's actually look at the archetypes:

Cryomancer
Hell Spectre Ninja
Spunky Daughter
Insect Queen
Brute and Companion
Aztec God
Arms Dealing Thug
Thunder God
Necromancer
Shaolin Monk
Princess Assassin
Reptilian Loyalist
Master of Souls
Shokan Prince
Abandoned child raised by Hell Spectre Ninja
Street Thief who turns good
Daughter with something to prove
Comedic Movie Actor Martial artist proving his skills
Serious/Determined Female Soldier
Army Soldier/Farmer
Clone Assassin fighting for her father's empty throne
Fallen Elder God
Mercenary Gun Wielder
Blind Swordsman

Obviously I didn't include further descriptions, but the roster has quite a bit of variety.

As for the % of MK9 returnees: It's actually closer to 60%. We have 8 new characters 33%, and 2 non-MK9 returning characters (Goro and Shinnok were not playable).

So you're looking at things with some bias there, skewing the actual reality of things.
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Cyborg
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 •03/14/2015 05:13 PM (UTC) •
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Windice Wrote:
L-BowShot Wrote:
If you expected more than 1/4th of roster to be female, then you're foolish. Youre lucky to get 6 even.


Why? I thought someone said this will have the most girl characters or something but they didn't really keep there promise with the roster number either so idk.


They make promises? I don't recall any of the developers saying "I promise there will be ________". Especially referring to the roster.

They only said "it'd be near MK9" and "it would feature the most new characters debuting, other than maybe Deception". It has 8 new characters, as does Deception. The total roster is looking like 25 characters initially, and MK9 had 28. That would be considered close.

No "promises" being broken.
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mkmileena
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Ethereal, ravenous, piercing. It's Mileena bitch.

Lovely signature by MINION

 •03/14/2015 05:26 PM (UTC) •
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More girl characters please.

They could have easily bumped up the roster from 24 to 26 with two more females. (Tanya/li mei or ashrah/sareena) and had a 19:7 or a 20:8 ratios.

Please stop counting Ferra in the female roster slots. Yes she is female, but she is not a fighter. She's 20% of Torr's gameplay. She and Torr fall more under the monster subgroup.
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eroslove
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 •03/14/2015 05:29 PM (UTC) •
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umbrascitor Wrote:
@FerraTorr and eroslove

Well, this discussion has gone around and around this forum a few times, and it usually comes from people taking a philosophical stance on the subject, unless I've just been missing the threads with the politically neutral sentiment that FerraTorr is referring to. When you think about it, it's hard to extract a "simple" wanting of more female characters from the social questions when the number bias is a social matter in the first place. "We would like to see more females" implies that the number is too low, and "too low" implies an ideal target. If you want "more," then how much is "more" and why?

So my post was an effort to find what such a standard might look like, even though the whole question is entirely subjective.

It's a question about a fantasy game, yes, but the answer has a reflection on the real world that wielding magic powers doesn't. Those magic powers represent the same potential as a soldier with a gun in real life, so that point is entirely moot. Yes, anyone can fight but that's not the question. The question is who would, because it's the proportion of active combatants that outlines our "standard."

For guidance on who would fight, I looked to statistics on general martial arts enthusiasm versus a measure of how many actually employ those skills in the kind of combat that sees you fighting for your faction/realm. Military enlistment seemed to be a reasonable analogue for an exercise I'm just tossing out here, so I went with that.

My post was an analysis, not a justification, of the roster. My conclusion was that we could have a 50:50 roster or a "realistic" one, and MKX falls somewhere in between. And at that, they also seem to be giving the female cast a strong representation in character, and so I think they're doing pretty well on the whole. Or at least they're doing better than the status quo.

You both have good points about why these social issues shouldn't need to have anything to do with this. But if you're going to say that what you have is not enough, then the next question is "Compared to what?" And that circles right back to the cultural questions. Otherwise, if there is no correct answer and it shouldn't even matter, then why does it matter? It should be fine to let them do as the story wills, especially if they're being progressive about it.



It appears our posts had more in common than I thought previously! That is to say, we were both analyzing the gender break down of the roster without prescribing a suitable alternative.

I think we differ on some methodological practices, for I would also compare the game's gender representation to its peer group, as in other top ranked franchised fighting games, rather than gender participation in things like the military or martial arts dojos. As one helpful poster pointed out later in the thread, MK does sit on the very low end of the bar here for featuring women on their roster.

Let me address a common misconception I see a lot on these boards; namely, that a criticism of the gender ratio in this game will necessarily lead to a mandate for a 50:50 roster split. Sometimes, this is called the slippery slope argument. Then, paranoid persecutory fantasies about SJWs censoring your favorite games follow forthwith.

But, as myself and others have pointed out, a critique of representation is not a mandate for what should be, numerically speaking. A critique is under no such obligation to prescribe an alternative to the object of its critique.

We can make a critique of gender representation in MK, comparing it to its peer group, thereby finding that the numbers reveal MK is on the low end of this spectrum. What we choose to do with this information is entirely separate from the practice of procuring said information.

Tl;dr: Don't mistake a critical review of the gender breakdown in MKX for a prescription for what it *should be.* Instead, it's more productive to ask some hard questions about why the roster looks the way it does--this will require not taking anything for granted. Edit: Questions like "Why am I convinced that including more women in the roster will necessarily cut out men to the detriment of my experience playing this game?" and/or "Why do I have a resistance to these critiques?"

Personally, I don't want any sort of quota that's enforced, as if that could/would accomplish its political aims. I would rather live in a world where the limits of our imagination weren't circumscribed by gender bias at all. And I think we break those limits little by little the more we talk about these things transparently.


I know Smoke has no objections to more females.
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MoodyShooter
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Dedicated, hopeless...Li Mei fan.

 •03/14/2015 05:37 PM (UTC) •
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I care more about quality than quantity. The girls in MKX are typically pretty awesome from what I've seen since E3 last year. No issues. That said I prefer female characters typically so more wouldn't be bad...especially if I get my one and only creepy-fanboy-obsession-character, Li Mei.

Other than that I'm just happy the OP didn't plagiarize the shit out of one of my posts again.
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T-rex
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 •03/14/2015 05:47 PM (UTC) •
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eroslove Wrote:
Tl;dr: Don't mistake a critical review of the gender breakdown in MKX for a prescription for what it *should be.*

Sure.


You have no idea how much a fucking game of Solitaire "reinforce harmful stereotypes": the player is invited to gaze at the Queen though the half-hour play and manipulate her. The rules incentivizes players to partake in a threesome by having the Queen in sandwich between the King and the Jack. Let's not forget how women are interchangeable, as long as their skin color match. It promotes the idea that women should be dragged in arranged marriages. Solitaire is game of patriarchy were women are always in second place.

Now, I'm not here to take your toys away, but if you could just remove this stereotypical rule from your card games when player Solitaire, you wouldn't be such a misogynistic pig.
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eroslove
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 •03/14/2015 05:55 PM (UTC) •
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T-rex Wrote:
eroslove Wrote:
Tl;dr: Don't mistake a critical review of the gender breakdown in MKX for a prescription for what it *should be.*

Sure.


You have no idea how much a fucking game of Solitaire "reinforce harmful stereotypes": the player is invited to gaze at the Queen though the half-hour play and manipulate her. The rules incentivizes players to partake in a threesome by having the Queen in sandwich between the King and the Jack. Let's not forget how women are interchangeable, as long as their skin color match. It promotes the idea that women should be dragged in arranged marriages. Solitaire is game of patriarchy were women are always in second place.

Now, I'm not here to take your toys away, but if you could just remove this stereotypical rule from your card games when player Solitaire, you wouldn't be such a misogynistic pig.


You seem angry and defensive. Your post also seems to be addressed to someone you've encountered before, but not actually to me. So...*whistles*
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DivahMah
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 •03/14/2015 05:56 PM (UTC) •
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20 males and 8 females, this would be okay to me.

1 Kitana
2 Sonya
3 Mileena
4 D'vorah
5 Cassie
6 Jacqi
7 Tanya
8 Limei / Sareena/ Ashrah/ Frost/ Kira

Is that too much to ask? Why is that so hard to do?
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Windice
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 •03/14/2015 05:57 PM (UTC) •
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blackcyborg Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
L-BowShot Wrote:
If you expected more than 1/4th of roster to be female, then you're foolish. Youre lucky to get 6 even.


Why? I thought someone said this will have the most girl characters or something but they didn't really keep there promise with the roster number either so idk.


They make promises? I don't recall any of the developers saying "I promise there will be ________". Especially referring to the roster.

They only said "it'd be near MK9" and "it would feature the most new characters debuting, other than maybe Deception". It has 8 new characters, as does Deception. The total roster is looking like 25 characters initially, and MK9 had 28. That would be considered close.

No "promises" being broken.


No they said same or more. Also some of the things u listed actually are kinda the same just worded differently also u picked out the parts that make the characters differnt. I can say frost is evil with a huge ego but she is still a cryomancer
At this point people's arguements for including ANY character should amount to "I like that character and think it would be fun based on the gameplay mechanics they'd bring to the table". Which is why I argued for Jax despite Jacqui being in. Not because they "deserve" to be in, not to fit a certain ratio, etc. Just fun.
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tharealist
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 •03/14/2015 06:09 PM (UTC) •
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Windice Wrote:
blackcyborg Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
L-BowShot Wrote:
If you expected more than 1/4th of roster to be female, then you're foolish. Youre lucky to get 6 even.


Why? I thought someone said this will have the most girl characters or something but they didn't really keep there promise with the roster number either so idk.


They make promises? I don't recall any of the developers saying "I promise there will be ________". Especially referring to the roster.

They only said "it'd be near MK9" and "it would feature the most new characters debuting, other than maybe Deception". It has 8 new characters, as does Deception. The total roster is looking like 25 characters initially, and MK9 had 28. That would be considered close.

No "promises" being broken.


No they said same or more. Also some of the things u listed actually are kinda the same just worded differently also u picked out the parts that make the characters differnt. I can say frost is evil with a huge ego but she is still a cryomancer


Thats was like what 8 months ago now? Take anything from back then with a grain of salt. Like when ed said you definitely will see a mk4 character he probably meant at the time shinnok is for sure and others like fujin, tanya, reiko etc may get in but not sure yet. He also said more new characters then any other game and we know thats not the case now.
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alican_zero
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http://www.deviantart.com/art/Sindel-142946721

 •03/14/2015 06:10 PM (UTC) •
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How dare you! Where is the One and only Queen Sindel !!!

DivahMah Wrote:
20 males and 8 females, this would be okay to me.

1 Kitana
2 Sonya
3 Mileena
4 D'vorah
5 Cassie
6 Jacqi
7 Tanya
8 Limei / Sareena/ Ashrah/ Frost/ Kira

Is that too much to ask? Why is that so hard to do?

Queen Sindel IS the STRONGEST female in MK !furious
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tharealist
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 •03/14/2015 06:13 PM (UTC) •
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alican_zero Wrote:
How dare you! Where is the One and only Queen Sindel !!!

DivahMah Wrote:
20 males and 8 females, this would be okay to me.

1 Kitana
2 Sonya
3 Mileena
4 D'vorah
5 Cassie
6 Jacqi
7 Tanya
8 Limei / Sareena/ Ashrah/ Frost/ Kira

Is that too much to ask? Why is that so hard to do?

Queen Sindel IS the STRONGEST female in MK !furious


Actually Delia is the strongest female in the mk universe.
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T-rex
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 •03/14/2015 06:13 PM (UTC) •
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eroslove Wrote:
You seem angry and defensive. Your post also seems to be addressed to someone you've encountered before, but not actually to me. So...*whistles*

Every time I see a "THIS IS JUST A CRITIQUE, WHY ARE YOU SILLY NERDS GETTING SO DEFENSIVE GEEZ" post, it's invariably a thinly-veiled call for self-censorship.

What kind of reaction are you expecting?
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Windice
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 •03/14/2015 06:15 PM (UTC) •
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tharealist Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
blackcyborg Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
L-BowShot Wrote:
If you expected more than 1/4th of roster to be female, then you're foolish. Youre lucky to get 6 even.


Why? I thought someone said this will have the most girl characters or something but they didn't really keep there promise with the roster number either so idk.


They make promises? I don't recall any of the developers saying "I promise there will be ________". Especially referring to the roster.

They only said "it'd be near MK9" and "it would feature the most new characters debuting, other than maybe Deception". It has 8 new characters, as does Deception. The total roster is looking like 25 characters initially, and MK9 had 28. That would be considered close.

No "promises" being broken.


No they said same or more. Also some of the things u listed actually are kinda the same just worded differently also u picked out the parts that make the characters differnt. I can say frost is evil with a huge ego but she is still a cryomancer


Thats was like what 8 months ago now? Take anything from back then with a grain of salt. Like when ed said you definitely will see a mk4 character he probably meant at the time shinnok is for sure and others like fujin, tanya, reiko etc may get in but not sure yet. He also said more new characters then any other game and we know thats not the case now.
So they couldn't keep up what they planned. I wouldn't mind if they delayed the game to add a few more things. Also sindel is the strongest playable female.
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tharealist
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 •03/14/2015 06:18 PM (UTC) •
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Windice Wrote:
tharealist Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
blackcyborg Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
L-BowShot Wrote:
If you expected more than 1/4th of roster to be female, then you're foolish. Youre lucky to get 6 even.


Why? I thought someone said this will have the most girl characters or something but they didn't really keep there promise with the roster number either so idk.


They make promises? I don't recall any of the developers saying "I promise there will be ________". Especially referring to the roster.

They only said "it'd be near MK9" and "it would feature the most new characters debuting, other than maybe Deception". It has 8 new characters, as does Deception. The total roster is looking like 25 characters initially, and MK9 had 28. That would be considered close.

No "promises" being broken.


No they said same or more. Also some of the things u listed actually are kinda the same just worded differently also u picked out the parts that make the characters differnt. I can say frost is evil with a huge ego but she is still a cryomancer


Thats was like what 8 months ago now? Take anything from back then with a grain of salt. Like when ed said you definitely will see a mk4 character he probably meant at the time shinnok is for sure and others like fujin, tanya, reiko etc may get in but not sure yet. He also said more new characters then any other game and we know thats not the case now.
So they couldn't keep up what they planned. I wouldn't mind if they delayed the game to add a few more things.


No game made keeps up with EVERY single thing it plans. Cuts are always made for whatever reason. And you might but no i and many others don't want the game delayed. That's why they make dlc. To include things that were planned but just missed the cut.
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eroslove
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 •03/14/2015 06:20 PM (UTC) •
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T-rex Wrote:
eroslove Wrote:
You seem angry and defensive. Your post also seems to be addressed to someone you've encountered before, but not actually to me. So...*whistles*

Every time I see a "THIS IS JUST A CRITIQUE, WHY ARE YOU SILLY NERDS GETTING SO DEFENSIVE GEEZ" post, it's invariably a thinly-veiled call for self-censorship.

What kind of reaction are you expecting?


I welcome you to cite anything in my post that could be misconstrued as a call for "self-censorship." I'm not particularly sure I know what that means, however, but I believe I did no such thing.

I don't think it helps the discussion to recall ad infinitum prior injustices/bad arguments you've had with other people re: this topic. Perhaps, I was expecting people would read what I wrote for what I wrote, rather than immediately aligning it with a hyperbolic and inaccurate depiction of social critique.

Perhaps I was in error to expect as much. :P
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Murcielago
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Get that ass BANNED

•03/14/2015 06:22 PM (UTC) •
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tharealist Wrote:
alican_zero Wrote:
How dare you! Where is the One and only Queen Sindel !!!

DivahMah Wrote:
20 males and 8 females, this would be okay to me.

1 Kitana
2 Sonya
3 Mileena
4 D'vorah
5 Cassie
6 Jacqi
7 Tanya
8 Limei / Sareena/ Ashrah/ Frost/ Kira

Is that too much to ask? Why is that so hard to do?

Queen Sindel IS the STRONGEST female in MK !furious


Actually Delia is the strongest female in the mk universe.


Don't even try to argue with this person. No matter what you say, this creature will always say "QUEEN SINDEL is the STRONGEST NO MATTER WHAT HURR DURR".
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Cyborg
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 •03/14/2015 06:23 PM (UTC) •
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Windice Wrote:
blackcyborg Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
L-BowShot Wrote:
If you expected more than 1/4th of roster to be female, then you're foolish. Youre lucky to get 6 even.


Why? I thought someone said this will have the most girl characters or something but they didn't really keep there promise with the roster number either so idk.


They make promises? I don't recall any of the developers saying "I promise there will be ________". Especially referring to the roster.

They only said "it'd be near MK9" and "it would feature the most new characters debuting, other than maybe Deception". It has 8 new characters, as does Deception. The total roster is looking like 25 characters initially, and MK9 had 28. That would be considered close.

No "promises" being broken.


No they said same or more. Also some of the things u listed actually are kinda the same just worded differently also u picked out the parts that make the characters differnt. I can say frost is evil with a huge ego but she is still a cryomancer


Anybody can just claim they made a statement saying "same or more", but unless you can give the actual proof of the quote, you can't expect anyone to take that as fact. And don't give me a "well, it was a long time ago, I can't find it" response, because that's not on them. I've followed this game as closely as anyone, I do a weekly podcast covering all the stuff each week, follow them all on twitter, and have watched every piece of footage. All I've seen in that regard is "close to MK9" and "around the same as MK9". 3 character difference is close. Regardless, even if they had said something, they damn sure didn't say the words "I promise you". Things happen throughout development, they wouldn't be making promises 8-10 months out as it pertains to roster size.

Frost isn't playable in the game. So I'm not sure what she has to do with anything.

I listed who is on the roster, and their archetypes. For the most part, they are all very unique. If you want to go as generic as "evil, huge ego" etc. of course you're going to have overlapping personalities and alignments. However, for the actual roster at hand, there's quite a lot of variety in terms of what defines the characters, their styles, their powers, and what role it is that they play overall. The words I used, are what defines the character. I didn't go out of my way to find something unique about them to separate them from a potential overlap with something else, they are all different in one way or another. So to say there isn't variety, is just a fallacy.
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Windice
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 •03/14/2015 06:27 PM (UTC) •
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tharealist Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
tharealist Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
blackcyborg Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
L-BowShot Wrote:
If you expected more than 1/4th of roster to be female, then you're foolish. Youre lucky to get 6 even.


Why? I thought someone said this will have the most girl characters or something but they didn't really keep there promise with the roster number either so idk.


They make promises? I don't recall any of the developers saying "I promise there will be ________". Especially referring to the roster.

They only said "it'd be near MK9" and "it would feature the most new characters debuting, other than maybe Deception". It has 8 new characters, as does Deception. The total roster is looking like 25 characters initially, and MK9 had 28. That would be considered close.

No "promises" being broken.


No they said same or more. Also some of the things u listed actually are kinda the same just worded differently also u picked out the parts that make the characters differnt. I can say frost is evil with a huge ego but she is still a cryomancer


Thats was like what 8 months ago now? Take anything from back then with a grain of salt. Like when ed said you definitely will see a mk4 character he probably meant at the time shinnok is for sure and others like fujin, tanya, reiko etc may get in but not sure yet. He also said more new characters then any other game and we know thats not the case now.
So they couldn't keep up what they planned. I wouldn't mind if they delayed the game to add a few more things.


No game made keeps up with EVERY single thing it plans. Cuts are always made for whatever reason. And you might but no i and many others don't want the game delayed. That's why they make dlc. To include things that were planned but just missed the cut.


I know but I don't think u should say things before u actually know them unless u plan to finish. either way the game is coming. I will say that I don't think we needed over 100 brutalities. I do like them but I just think the time could of been used in another place.
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