Quan_Chilli: I definately agree with you that any character can beat anyone else. You just need to know your character, your opponent, and execute your moves and strats properly.


I do have a question for MKL or anyone else... What exactly do you mean by the game being broken? I'll probably agree with you, I'm just not sure what you're referring to.

MrSchpfmut Wrote: Quan_Chilli: I definately agree with you that any character can beat anyone else. You just need to know your character, your opponent, and execute your moves and strats properly. I do have a question for MKL or anyone else... What exactly do you mean by the game being broken? I'll probably agree with you, I'm just not sure what you're referring to.

lol.............i cant believe people stil say this. ok, heres an example. there is no cyrax or kitana player on this earth that will ever beat my scorpion. it is not possible and it will never happen no matter who i play. and thats just 1 example, even though its an extreme 1 going from top tier vs bottom tier but u get the idea hopefully.

"I definately agree with you that any character can beat anyone else. You just need to know your character, your opponent, and execute your moves and strats properly."

Ok let's put it this way. At low level(most of the people at this board are this) anyone can win. Kitana can beat Bo Rai Cho, Cyrax can beat Scorpion,etc. Why? Because Low Level players don't include depth within their game. They're about random combos being blocked and punishing with weak,non full potential combos. They cant utilize traps,infinites,etc properly, hence low tiers can hang with top tiers and their overpoweringness is unnoticed.

At mid level(where most of us are) tiers start to take form. Characters like Cyrax and Kitana have extremely hard(near impossible) match ups. At this level characters 1-19 can compete with each other. Though 16-19 will have a harder time taking on 1-10 than 11-15 will, they all have the key essentials to win. Mid level players can utilizes some of the traps,infinite and other glitches that characters have to offer, but not all.

High level is non existent in MKDA besides MKL and a few of his friends. They know all of the important traps,glitches,strategies,set ups,etc. Chracters like Scorpion,Bo Rai Cho,Reptile,Drahmin and to a lesser extent Sonya dominate at this level. Yes, 6-15 can compete with better characters, but it's almost always an uphill battle. Even 16-19 can compete with all of the mid tiers and even some of the top 10, but it's extremely difficult and some matches are just straight up impossible. 20-23 are basically no existent at this level. They're basically joke character. They don't have the tools to compete with the big dogs and should be avoided.

No one wants MKDA to broken. No one wants infinites and other stupid glitches, but that was how the game was made, and there is nothing you can do about it but accept the fact that MKDA is unbalanced at mid-high levels of play. People are just too stubborn to see this, but hopefully when MK6 comes out they will get the picture.


I do have a question for MKL or anyone else... What exactly do you mean by the game being broken? I'll probably agree with you, I'm just not sure what you're referring to.

i mean dont get me wrong, in MKDA characters that r not top 5 r still good and can compete to a certain extent. and then there r some characters tht arent top 10 that give some higher tier characters problems. a good example of this is Quan Chi. even though i have him ranked as #11 he gives a good fight to almost all the characters except for maybe the top 5 but even then he can at least faight except vs scorp,reptile, and drahmin. anyway heres the point, Quan Chi at #11 gives BRC who is #2 problems. so there r certain instances where characters who arent ranked top 5 can still compete however there arent many. the only problem is that the top 5 actually mainly the top 4 characters r just super overpowering and have a natural advantage over almost all of the characters.

i need to clear something up here about the tiers in MKDA. in MKDA there r:

1. matches that r dead even

2. matches that r even and both characters have an equal chance at winning but 1 character can still be overall better then the other 1 because of how they do in other matchups

3. matches that r close and can be won but 1 character will have a slightly harder time winning then the other due to a character just being better overall.

4. matches that r winable but not really on a consistant basis(I.E. frost vs mavado)

5. matches where 1 character is a counter pick to another character

6. matches that r almost imposible to win

7. matches that r impossible to win


let me give u an example of this by explaining matchup #3 and show u how the tiers were made:


when i have #6 Shang, #7 Hsu Hao, #8 frost, and #9 Jax. now even though i say Hsu Hao is #7 and Jax is #9 i am not saying that Hsu Hao beats Jax down and that Jax cant win. can Jax win that match? yes. is it harder for him to win the match then it is for Hsu Hao? yes. but he can still win it. If the match is winable then y is Hsu Hao ranked higher then Jax? both have fast jabs but Hsu Hao has faster jabs, Hsu Hao's branch turns into a setup when its stopped at the 2nd to last hit and he can really pile on damage and end the fight right there, Hsu Hao has more, safer, faster, and more damaging low attacks then Jax so u cant just stand and block vs him as easy as u can vs Jax, and wrestling is better then judo so he's got a WAY more usefull 2nd stance giving him more options. and thats y Hsu Hao is overall better. as far as the impossible matchups, if u dont get what i am saying by now i will give an example of an impossible match or any of the matcups that i have listed above if someone asks.

MKL, NEO, etc, do you wanna play some zsnes? I pm'd you a few days ago but my inbox might be full if you replied.

i dont have or like zsnes. i'll wait for u to get mame. and for the record, i hate mame as well but its better then zsnes.

Ok I'm glad you put it that way, and that this didn't turn out to another dumb argument.

Since you now explain it as characters have more difficult time winning than his lesser opponent, I agree with that. I was just getting something else out of your previous comments, as you can tell you get no expression when reading text.

It's not that I don't agree or believe in the tiers, but it's just a guideline... Which is basically what you guys were just saying so I'll shut up now. PEACE

MrSchpfmut Wrote: I do have a question for MKL or anyone else... What exactly do you mean by the game being broken? I'll probably agree with you, I'm just not sure what you're referring to.

Let me just say a few words in defense of MK. Most people think calling MK unbalanced is an insult. To them unbalanced = sucks. But riddle me this, if MK sucks so bad then what are we doing here?

I have to admit that one of the reasons I like MK so much is that it is so unbalanced. It's all about digging for the glitch combos and overpowering characters, then using them to humiliate your friends. That's what MK is all about.

It is rather funny though that team MK often tries so hard to make the games balanced, but always fails so miserably.

_NE0_ Wrote: i dont have or like zsnes. i'll wait for u to get mame. and for the record, i hate mame as well but its better then zsnes.

BAH! Why do you hate Mame?

Listing can sometimes be confusing as far as tiers go, so I think its better to do it this way.

~~~~~~
Tier 1
~~~~~~
Scorpion


~~~~~~
Tier 2
~~~~~~
Bo Rai Cho,Reptile,Drahmin


~~~~~~
Tier 3
~~~~~~
Sonya,Shang Tsung,Hsu Hao


~~~~~~
Tier 4
~~~~~~
Frost,Jax,Kenshi,Quan Chi


~~~~~~
Tier 5
~~~~~~
Kung Lao,Raiden,Mokap,Sub-Zero


~~~~~~
Tier 6
~~~~~~
Li Mei,Mavado,Kano,Johnny Cage,Blaze


~~~~~~
Tier 7
~~~~~~
Nitara,Cyrax,Kitana

That's that. Basically, Tier 2 - 4 can compete with each other just fine. Tier 5s are the pretty good, but not great character who can annihilate Tiers 6 and 7, can hang with Tier 2-4, but get killed by Tier 1. Tier 6 are the average characters who can compete with tiers 3-4 with hard work, but get killed by tiers 1-2. As for 7..well..they really can't compete with anyone cept maybe tier 6.

In other words...Scorpion just kills everyone

I only have 3 problems with MKDA...

1. Balance. My main character Sub-Zero gets mauled by those better than him along with other popular characters like Cyrax,Kitana and Raiden. I mean, how the heck are you gonna make craptacular characters like Hsu Hao and Frost better than bad asses like Cyrax and Kano? I mean, its not just the cool characters that need to be tone up, but the game needs to be balanced as a whole. I don't mind it being broken, but make everyone broken! Just like UMK3 where over half the roster was like MKDA Scorpion.

2. FMV Endings. I mean..come on now. Lets put some FMVs in here. I don't mind the pictures, but if you have extra time try to get some video endings in.

3. Depth. Yes, it is the deepest MK ever, but things such as multi throwing,ching,etc should be included. I emailed MKL and Ray wish list for MK6 and everyone I showed it to thought it was great, so maybe if they get on the team they can show Ed Boon it or something.

4. Modes. Honestly, I can deal with the average at best depth. I can deal with not having FMV endings and an unbalancedgame(ok..maybe not an unbalanced game), but COME ON! Almost every single one of the next gen fighters out there has a time attack,survival,tag battle and team mode. This is what keeps the replay value fresh Midway, and it really wouldn't take too long to do. Arcade,Vs,Konquest and Practice simply isnt enough.

ahem..sorry about going off topic. I LOVE MKDA, but I really just hope they fix these problems.

Versatile, you said you have 3 problems and listed 4! AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH... j/k
Anyways, Ray is on the team... MKL is not. I'm sure he'll at least read it and maybe try and take ideas from it... who knows?
I would also love to see some FMVs too, but they are very EXPENSIVE! More modes for playing would definately be cool but don't forget MK6 will be online! This, I'm sure, is a big focus for Midway right now and it will be working for MK6 cause they're putting all their sports games online first.
As far as the game being broken... Yeah I guess you could say that to a point, but it seems they put a lot of effort into limiting these areas.
I've seen footage from before the game was released and there was some pretty interesting things. The first thing I noticed was it used to hail in the acid pit which I thought looked kinda cool, but they probably didn't want to over use it.
Li Mei used to be a lot more powerfull. I don't remember the exact number but I think her three kicks did about 10% more than they did now. You used to be able to throw your character when they were in the air. I saw Kano do this, but you can't do that now because throws by themselves do enough damage. Think how much they'd do at the end of a combo.

Well Vers like I said on MSN I agree with most of what you said in your list of suggestions, but (we never got to finish that conversation), I think FMV endings are a BAD, BAD idea.

They were varying greatly in storyline quality in MK4 and looked very unrealistic and dim. In MKG they did a better job but the endings in themselves were even worse (Kitana's and Mileena's endings, for instance, were simply embarrassing... Kung Lao had motoric problems and when you thought about it Baraka's made no sense at all). With text + picture endings they can tell us a lot more about the story, unless they give each character 15 minute FMV endings, but that, as noted here, would be *quite* expensive, to say the least.

Q

Versatile Wrote: Listing can sometimes be confusing as far as tiers go, so I think its better to do it this way. ~~~~~~ Tier 1 ~~~~~~ Scorpion ~~~~~~ Tier 2 ~~~~~~ Bo Rai Cho,Reptile,Drahmin ~~~~~~ Tier 3 ~~~~~~ Sonya,Shang Tsung,Hsu Hao ~~~~~~ Tier 4 ~~~~~~ Frost,Jax,Kenshi,Quan Chi ~~~~~~ Tier 5 ~~~~~~ Kung Lao,Raiden,Mokap,Sub-Zero ~~~~~~ Tier 6 ~~~~~~ Li Mei,Mavado,Kano,Johnny Cage,Blaze ~~~~~~ Tier 7 ~~~~~~ Nitara,Cyrax,Kitana

please stop this shit leave it just plain old 1-23 or just have 3 tiers...........top, mid, and bottom. so if u were to split it into 3 tiers heres how it looks:


Top Tier:
1.Scorpion
2.Bo' Rai Cho
3.Reptile
4.Drahmin
5.Sonya

Mid Tier:
6.Shang Tsung
7.Hsu Hao
8.Frost
9.Jax
10.Kenshi
11.Quan Chi
12.Kung Lao
13.Raiden
14.Mokap
15.Sub-Zero
16.Mavado
17.Johnny Cage
18.Kano

Low Tier:
19.Blaze
20.Nitara
21.Li Mei
22.Kitana
23.Cyrax

now each tier has high and bottom. for example....Hsu Hao is high mid and Sub-Zero is bottom mid.

Well, they are three main tiers, but those are the sectioned out tiers. You dont want people thinking just because Sub-Zero and Hsu Hao are in the same tier that they are evenly matched..for they are not. This is why I divided them up.

Also, Li Mei is not low tier. LHBF makes at the very leas bottom mid. 2 and 2,4..thats all she needs. I think Blaze can push for bottom mid as well. And Cyrax is better than Kitana.

OK, I just got to ask, what's the justification for putting Nitara down so low. She should be top of the mid tier IMO. So what gives? Why do you think she's so weak?

Now that just pissed me off to no end. I hate you. I fucking hate you.

BertEbony Wrote: asshole spoiler

1-Sonya
2-Jax
3-Sub Zero
4-Kano

MK_Tradition

your top four are purely based on opinion I imagine.

MK_Tradition Wrote: 1-Sonya 2-Jax 3-Sub Zero 4-Kano

i respect your tier but i still believe that sub-zero is the best fighter. to date i have not lost one fight with subby and i played some hardcore players. i even won a tournament in Cali, a month back without losing a single round.

How many tier lists are out there??? lol j/k

I think everyone's agree in the most important issues and those are the top 5 and that Kitana and Cyrax are the worst...

dont forget Mavado!

Leno_mk Wrote: How many tier lists are out there??? lol j/k I think everyone's agree in the most important issues and those are the top 5 and that Kitana and Cyrax are the worst...

Of course!! I can't forget Mavado!! lol

OK, I will admit it. I am just not getting it. How is Frost, Hsu, or even reptile so much better than sub? I have played a little with them all and I don't get it. Please explain it to me.

Versatile Wrote: Listing can sometimes be confusing as far as tiers go, so I think its better to do it this way. ~~~~~~ Tier 1 ~~~~~~ Scorpion ~~~~~~ Tier 2 ~~~~~~ Bo Rai Cho,Reptile,Drahmin ~~~~~~ Tier 3 ~~~~~~ Sonya,Shang Tsung,Hsu Hao ~~~~~~ Tier 4 ~~~~~~ Frost,Jax,Kenshi,Quan Chi ~~~~~~ Tier 5 ~~~~~~ Kung Lao,Raiden,Mokap,Sub-Zero ~~~~~~ Tier 6 ~~~~~~ Li Mei,Mavado,Kano,Johnny Cage,Blaze ~~~~~~ Tier 7 ~~~~~~ Nitara,Cyrax,Kitana That's that. Basically, Tier 2 - 4 can compete with each other just fine. Tier 5s are the pretty good, but not great character who can annihilate Tiers 6 and 7, can hang with Tier 2-4, but get killed by Tier 1. Tier 6 are the average characters who can compete with tiers 3-4 with hard work, but get killed by tiers 1-2. As for 7..well..they really can't compete with anyone cept maybe tier 6. In other words...Scorpion just kills everyone I only have 3 problems with MKDA... 1. Balance. My main character Sub-Zero gets mauled by those better than him along with other popular characters like Cyrax,Kitana and Raiden. I mean, how the heck are you gonna make craptacular characters like Hsu Hao and Frost better than bad asses like Cyrax and Kano? I mean, its not just the cool characters that need to be tone up, but the game needs to be balanced as a whole. I don't mind it being broken, but make everyone broken! Just like UMK3 where over half the roster was like MKDA Scorpion. 2. FMV Endings. I mean..come on now. Lets put some FMVs in here. I don't mind the pictures, but if you have extra time try to get some video endings in. 3. Depth. Yes, it is the deepest MK ever, but things such as multi throwing,ching,etc should be included. I emailed MKL and Ray wish list for MK6 and everyone I showed it to thought it was great, so maybe if they get on the team they can show Ed Boon it or something. 4. Modes. Honestly, I can deal with the average at best depth. I can deal with not having FMV endings and an unbalancedgame(ok..maybe not an unbalanced game), but COME ON! Almost every single one of the next gen fighters out there has a time attack,survival,tag battle and team mode. This is what keeps the replay value fresh Midway, and it really wouldn't take too long to do. Arcade,Vs,Konquest and Practice simply isnt enough. ahem..sorry about going off topic. I LOVE MKDA, but I really just hope they fix these problems.

jakmorrison Wrote: OK, I will admit it. I am just not getting it. How is Frost, Hsu, or even reptile so much better than sub? I have played a little with them all and I don't get it. Please explain it to me.

I'll try to explain it very simply without making this another round of pointless flaming by the veterans and their usual opponents.

Frost is "better", mainly because of her infinite. However, her infinite is not in the PAL version, so the tier list for PAL will look slightly different.

Hsu Hao beats Sub-Zero because he packs a lot more punch, is easier to handle and has a few moves (such as his throw) that can be abused with no end. Plus, he has more combos that are relatively safe on block than Sub-Zero.

Reptile is one of the best out there, if only for his speed. His crab style is safe on block with most of its moves and his main combo in hung gar can work confusing. His ground roll move is very quick and can be pulled off to dismantle a solid defence at any distance (kind of like Scorpion's Hellfire).

I think that's about it, yes :).

Peace,
Q