There is no "base palette". If by base palette you mean the first in the list, then I suppose that's a logical argument. Most sprites, when opened in a palette editor, have upwards of 16 palettes. I've think Zelda 3 has 32 palettes per sprite, but I could be wrong. I can't remember.

MK2KungBroken Wrote: Anyway, the fact that the flesh tones are in both Reptile's and Scorpion's costume leads me to believe that Scorpion's costume is the original pallet and that there is no red pallet available for the costume. Even Sub-zero has a shine of sorts on his shoulder that is flesh tone but would match Scoprion's, and not a red or green costume. So the no loading of a pallet and using the default color, that being red, is not a valid possibility.

dreemernj Wrote: I have not found the text yet. Can't seem to figure how its stored in there. Plus, I have been sidetracked writing my name on Raiden's chest, teehee. Hopefully I will find the text soon. But, thus far, it has been EXTREMELY annoying. The graphics are stored in a fairly straight forward way, much easier then in an SNES rom or something, but still, its painful to tease info out of this thing.

CTRL+F anyone? Then type the original numbers.

No. God, no. Text isn't stored in a ROM as actual readable characters. You can't just type "Ermac Wins" and have it come up with what you're looking for. Everything needs to be decompressed and decoded. A full hack of a ROM (that's done well) can easily take over a year.

SuperMarioBro Wrote: dreemernj Wrote: I have not found the text yet. Can't seem to figure how its stored in there. Plus, I have been sidetracked writing my name on Raiden's chest, teehee. Hopefully I will find the text soon. But, thus far, it has been EXTREMELY annoying. The graphics are stored in a fairly straight forward way, much easier then in an SNES rom or something, but still, its painful to tease info out of this thing. CTRL+F anyone? Then type the original numbers.

Yeah SMB if you look at the rom data you're going to see nothing but symbols that make it easy for a computer to read, because it knows what it all means and what does what, whereas if a person looked at it they would say, "Wow" So Dreemer is going through some complex operations and math/variables to figure out how to generate a name, I think the first attemp he made was "Kano" but couldn't find it, so his method wasn't right, but he's still trying.

Hyuga, I meant base pallet as in when the ninjas were filmed and if they only used one color, that whatever this color was, it was probably the color close to the flesh tones that I noticed is in all of their pallets, not every tone, but they exist in all of them, and that Scorpion's outfit is the closest color to them, because Ermac would be made of the available reds in the game's pallets, and those reds do not look right with the bits of tans and off yellows and what not. And that was an incredible long and unending sentence. If they used one color costume for everyone because of "blue screen" or green screen, because actually Midway I know for a fact they used a green screen for games like WWF In Your House and and Wrestlemania, so it would make sense to use GS for MK as well, but who knows, that's just speculation, this basic color would have to be Scorpion's, therefor I don't think there's any chance that a red pallet would just magically come up.

After looking at all the things involved in order to get this glitch to come up the "right" way, there is an enormous amount of things where the odds are virtually incalculable. To say the chances of this error happening perfectly is a million to 1, is a vast understatement, I would say the amount of stars in the universe, or grains of sand on the beach would be a more reasonable estimation of this happening. The only way for it to happen like this again, would be if it were intentional, and if it were intentional, it wouldn't be impossible to reproduce. That's why it's not real. Hyuga I know you mentioned how letters are form from bits and pieces of other letters, but there are a bunch of different fonts used in MK1, and the font for the character names I don't think there is a letter M seen anywhere in the game so ERMAC could not appear in the energy bar, I don't think there's even the slightest chance of that unless all the letters of the alphabet are in there somewhere somehow. As for the ERMAC WINS I think that font is the same font as on the character layout so M is there there in MIRROR MATCH. If ANYONE has the picture from EGM and can scan it the best quality they can, PLEASE put it up somewhere, because I don't even remember what it looks like, but I have to see it, and if there are any discontinuities anywhere we'd be able to tell.

Matt

I remember the pic...it was terrible quality and the letters "Ermac Wins" was very bright over a Red Scorpion doing his winning pose on the Warrior Shrine stage. I think there was another image also of this "dark red ninja" doing Scorpion's spear on the same stage. But I swear...they retracted the article in a future issue saying that the whole Ermac thing was a lie. I could be wrong though.

*kicks himself for throwing the mags away*

I can't believe I remember things like this...I guess I have a photographic memory or something.

LoL I have a photographic memory too, but I cannot find the magazine, the Prophet thinks it's in his garage, he'll find it in due time, but if anyone has it NOW, I want to see.

Matt

Ah. I see what you mean, but there are always palettes that they don't intend to use. Zelda 3 (A Link To The Past) has several green shade palettes and even a few rainbow palettes that are not used in the game. You see, all colors in a single palette are directly editable by themselves. Just because the existing reds that you actually see in the game wouldn't match up doesn't mean that there aren't other reds that were never used. Plus, corruption could change any of the paletes to be any number of colors.

MK2KungBroken Wrote: Hyuga, I meant base pallet as in when the ninjas were filmed and if they only used one color, that whatever this color was, it was probably the color close to the flesh tones that I noticed is in all of their pallets, not every tone, but they exist in all of them, and that Scorpion's outfit is the closest color to them, because Ermac would be made of the available reds in the game's pallets, and those reds do not look right with the bits of tans and off yellows and what not. And that was an incredible long and unending sentence. If they used one color costume for everyone because of "blue screen" or green screen, because actually Midway I know for a fact they used a green screen for games like WWF In Your House and and Wrestlemania, so it would make sense to use GS for MK as well, but who knows, that's just speculation, this basic color would have to be Scorpion's, therefor I don't think there's any chance that a red pallet would just magically come up.

Actually, every ROM I've hacked has always had a complete font set. Most of them even have special characters included, such as ü, é, and the like. Zelda 3 has a full Japanese character set included, even though there is no Japanese in it.

MK2KungBroken Wrote: Hyuga I know you mentioned how letters are form from bits and pieces of other letters, but there are a bunch of different fonts used in MK1, and the font for the character names I don't think there is a letter M seen anywhere in the game so ERMAC could not appear in the energy bar, I don't think there's even the slightest chance of that unless all the letters of the alphabet are in there somewhere somehow. As for the ERMAC WINS I think that font is the same font as on the character layout so M is there there in MIRROR MATCH. If ANYONE has the picture from EGM and can scan it the best quality they can, PLEASE put it up somewhere, because I don't even remember what it looks like, but I have to see it, and if there are any discontinuities anywhere we'd be able to tell. Matt

Sorry for all of the Zelda 3 comparisons. It's the ROM I've hacked the most. I'm the most familiar with it.

Yeah, I'm aware of all the unused pallets and such, but usually, unused pallets just simply don't look right, like in SF2 if you go through the pallets you can see there are maybe 2 or 3 that actually shade properly, and all the others are completely distorted, and all of this is very useful for what you're doing, but the more in depth you get with it, the chances of these things happening are exponentially less likely. Put it this way, if the ERMACS system had to contend with all the stuff we're mentioning, I think the machine would sooner shut itself down then calculate all those variables. It's more likely that this specific glitch just didn't happen. Judging by how definitive the color schemes for Scorpion, Sub-zero and Reptile are, as in, the hues used, and the contrast, and the color reds you see used in the game also being like this, I doubt that there are many shades of red that are not seen somewhere in the game, if any. All the corruption in the world isn't going to make it look right, in fact, the reason why I'm using these examples is because someone asked why he is shaded perfectly, as if it were intended to be like that, then someone said that it probably doesn't load a pallet for Scorpion, but I don't think that's true because I believe the default pallet for Scorpion is just that yellow you see as player 1. The player 2 is almost a mustard color, and if you make the screen dark enough you could almost pass it for a maroon.

The explanation of Ermac is so convoluted now I don't see how anyone can believe it's still possible. I believe even more so now than ever that he's just not there and the EGM picture is a fake and Boon BSed his way through it to not seem totally incompetent. When dealing with an error the game creators can't explain, trying to come up with theories on it usually results in wild stuff like this.

Matt

With ALL of the variables we've discussed, taking into account that the corruption would have to fall perfectly in place, it is in my semi-professional ROM hacker's opinion that the odds of something like this actually happening are astronomical. This reminds me of the P vs. NP mathematical problem. This is from the Clay Mathematics Institute website :

"Suppose that you are organizing housing accommodations for a group of four hundred university students. Space is limited and only one hundred of the students will receive places in the dormitory. To complicate matters, the Dean has provided you with a list of pairs of incompatible students, and requested that no pair from this list appear in your final choice. This is an example of what computer scientists call an NP-problem, since it is easy to check if a given choice of one hundred students proposed by a coworker is satisfactory (i.e., no pair from taken from your coworker's list also appears on the list from the Dean's office), however the task of generating such a list from scratch seems to be so hard as to be completely impractical. Indeed, the total number of ways of choosing one hundred students from the four hundred applicants is greater than the number of atoms in the known universe..."

I just wish I could figure how text is stored, its driving me nuts. I tried searching by reference for it, figuring that the letters would be represented by numbers in the proper order. So the word Kano could be seen by reference as being this:

K=x
A=x-10
N=x+3
O=x+4
So, I would scan the rom for a row of 4 values that matched that pattern. But, nothing showed up :-/

Right now I am just trying to narrow it by dropping blocks of 0's into the roms at various locations but I've only found character images so far, and their storage is a little cooky as well. They seem to be multipled layers stacked to get all the possible colors, kind of like the stacking of layers of 0's and 1's to allow 256 colors per sprite in SNES, but I can't seem to track down all the layers.

Ugh, I will keep trying though because this is getting quite fascinating.

As far as the Zelda rom, expect huge fontsets in it. The game is originally designed for Japanese which I believe requires more symbols then the minimum ascii needed for an English game. Thats why in UMK3 for SNES, the font set is Extremely limited, but it does retain each letter and number plus some basic symbols.

I believe Ermac happened. I believe he happened that one time, to that one person and will never happen again. I've come to this realization after remembering a "glitch car" I found in Twisted Metal II. I chose Sweet Tooth, but the car I was playing with was a glitched up orange car that I've only seen once. No Twisted Metal fan has other than me has seen it, and every other Twisted Metal fan thinks I'm making it up.

We're not just talking about Scorpion turning red though. People always talk about it as if it was just that, but the only evidence of Ermac(Ed's interview and the EGM thing) point to it being much more.

Glitches like that happening on textures for 3D and polygons happen all the time. Like Sakura said, this discussion was never about Scorpion just turning red, this is about a hidden character called Ermac that happens to be a red Scorpion.

Red Scorpion happening by accident: Unlikely, but believeable to an extent. Is it real though? Not proven.

Ermac being a hidden character in MK1: Not a chance in Hell. Is it real though? No. Not at all. The discussion started out that way in another thread, and words were slowly manipulated to this point where now the case is "I think the red glitched Scorpion is real."

Even if it's true, a red Scorpion glitch is NOT Ermac. The correlation was made after the fact. I still want to see the picture from the EGM mag, there could be this huge discussion about something that is totally fake, and Konqrr and the Prophet both think that there was a mag released later that said it was a lie all along. You would think that with all the controversy that SOMEONE would have posted the EGM polaroid somewhere. I think this picture holds a lot of answers.

Matt

I did some searching, I found a guy who claims to have a scan of it, but he made a post on a message board about it a little over *3* years ago, I went to email him and his email doesn't exist, but I got his AIM from his website as well, he's online, but he's been on for over 5 days, I IMed him, no answer yet. I did some more searching, and there was this on some website, with a lot of broken links:

What magazine was the fake picture of Ermac sent into,
when MK1 came out?

Answer 1: EGM
Answer 2: GamePro

It's on this website, which hasn't been updated since 1997 it seems, it's very primitive, and all MK.

http://gee.cs.oswego.edu/~keith/bdhq/

On another page:

A rumored glitch sent into EGM, which showed a red ninja with the words ERMAC WINS center screen, created a wild stir. Midway later stated that it was a glitch that stood for "Error Macro."

http://www.roydaking.com/essays/essays_mortalkombat_1.asp

On a neat side note, ERMAC also stands for:
Electromagnetic Radiation Management Advisory Council

Matt

I'd like to see exactly what was said in EGM. I can't remember the exact details. I remember he described the fight with Ermac, but what were his EXACT words? IIRC he described as much more than a red scorpion, he was all fast and powerful or something. I remember it really sounded like a BS hoax and not a real glitch.


The problem with this argument(and all ermac arguments) is that everyone seems to have their own definition of Ermac. The pic and Ed's interview point to a specifically programmed fight with a real hidden character, an event created and in the game for a purpose. Not just Scorpion turning red. Yet most people in the MK community act as if it's just some glitch. Everyone you ask has a different take on the glitch too. Sometimes it's a red Scorpion with "ermac" in the lifebar, othertimes it's just Scorpion in the lifebar, sometimes it's "Error Macro". Sometimes it's not even Scorpion, someone in the Shang Tsung's real form thread claimed it was a red Reptile. Nobody seems to even agree on what it is we're discussing. Also really makes it come off like an urban legend.



When you guys enter those numbers and the game screws up does the "ermacs" counter increase by one?

Sakura, you bring a lot of the same points I do, I like that lol.

I really think that what Boon is saying in that interview is that the glitch is just related to the ERMACS system, had they known what it really was and it was in fact the ERMACS system at work it would have been more definitive, like, "It is what happens in the game when an error that isn't supposed to happen does happen, allowing the machine to fix itself." He says that, but really words it poorly and tries to avoid saying anything out of context, he really only says that it's got something do with the ERMACS system, and that he calls the system Ermac, not the character that appears, and he doesn't even specify any character, or that if more than one character can be Ermac. When they say not to even try, to me that means it's not intended to happen, and actually, it doesn't even seem like they knew about it themselves and they were guessing too, which is why it must be a fake. Something the programmers can't explain just seems fishy.

Matt

Yeah, I agree. It's away to vague. Also "I can't say if it's in MK II" makes it obvious he is just trying to be mysterious.

The problem with anything Ed says is that you can never get a straight answer.

LOL yeah nothing but unhetero answers, the fact that he says "I can't say it's in MKII" just throws the whole credibility off, that is an obvious reference to the "ERMAC DOES NOT EXIST" thing in the end of the game, which I truly feel is the only bit of evidence needed to dispell the MK1 Ermac rumor once and for all...but others just can't deal with that.

Matt

Sakura Wrote: I'd like to see exactly what was said in EGM. I can't remember the exact details. I remember he described the fight with Ermac, but what were his EXACT words? IIRC he described as much more than a red scorpion, he was all fast and powerful or something. I remember it really sounded like a BS hoax and not a real glitch.

I remember saying that I wouldn't post any of the "evidence" again, but since Sakura DID back me up with the GamePro interview, I thought I'd return the favor.

EGM's tricks and cheats section of their mag is called "Tricks of the Trade." They USED to have a part in this section each month called "Most Wanted Trick", where they themselves would either come up with a trick/cheat/glitch they'd like to see or they'd come up with this based on a fan's submission.

Around 1993, some fan (I OBVIOUSLY don't remember his name, not sure if it's the one provided by MK2KungBroken) submitted a polaroid (black & white, poor quality) where all you could see was a ninja raising his hand in victory and the words "Ermac Wins" could be seen over his head. According to this fan, he got to Ermac this way (btw, I'm not saying nor have I ever said this method works; it's just the method THIS FAN used; in fact, it didn't work for me when I myself tried it out in the arcades):

He was playing 2-player mode BY HIMSELF. In other words, he put quarters in both slots and nobody was controlling player 2. The stage was the Warrior Shrine. He was using Johnny Cage, and I'm 99% sure P2 was also Cage. He beat this opponet Double-Flawless USING ONLY HP and then did his Fatality (which also requires using HP).

After this, Ermac appeared (don't recall at the moment whether or not a message appeared like it does with Reptile). The fan said it was a red ninja that kicked his ass and he got the name Ermac 'cause that's the name that appeared before the words "Wins" and NOT from the lifebar (since the name in the lifebar says Scorpion, for those who have gotten that part wrong).

I agree with MK2KungBroken that Ermac (or "the red ninja", to avoid getting into that again) is NOT a secret character like Reptile was in MK1 and/or Jade, Smoke, Noob Saibot are in MK2. There is no set method to fight against him. BUT, I do firmly believe that a red ninja did appear to this guy (and probably a couple of people over the years) and that these people are the luckiest MK fans in the world.

So why do I call him Ermac? 'Cause a guy sent a polaroid to EGM (which I myself saw), claiming that a RED NINJA kicked his ass, and I saw the words "Ermac Wins" over the ninja's head. I also call him Ermac 'cause GamePro asked Boon something along the lines of "So Ed, what's the deal with Ermac in MK1?" and he gave the answer that Sakura posted. The final reason I call him Ermac is 'cause if you go to GamePro.com (something that anybody with an internet connection can look at) and look at their feature about videogame Urban Legends, when they discuss the (untrue) rumors from MK2, they clearly say that the unlikely rumors of Ermac and Reptile turned out to be TRUE.

Whether or not he (the red ninja) was actually called Ermac, I firmly believe that in MK1, some incredibly rare error occurs, 'causing you to fight against a red ninja (while the name Scorpion appears in the lifebar).

Alright I'll accept that, but it took a lot to get you to admit that he's not a hidden character.

Matt

MK2KungBroken Wrote: Alright I'll accept that, but it took a lot to get you to admit that he's not a hidden character. Matt

For fucks sake, everyone KNOWS Ermac isn't a real charecter in MK1. And by that I mean a planned intentional charecter.

I really don't see how Gamepro saying it's true is proof. They offer no details on it, besides saying it turned out to be real. Without backing up that claim they have no more credibility than anyone else here saying it does/does not exist. Why does their word matter? Because they're the press? We all know the press has got things wrong about MK before.

MK2KungBroken Wrote: Alright I'll accept that, but it took a lot to get you to admit that he's not a hidden character. Matt

For me, a hidden character is somebody like Reptile, Smoke, Jade, and/or Noob Saibot. In other words, somebody that you can fight against doing a specific thing and when done correctly, you're able to fight against said hidden character.

When did I ever say that about Ermac?

All you guys ever said was "Ermac appears in MK1, HE is in the game. I'm officially angry because now you are guys are just liars. Total bullshitting liars. I'm never posting in this thread again. Continue to believe in your Ermac, he seems to be a God to you people.

Matt

MK2KungBroken Wrote: All you guys ever said was "Ermac appears in MK1, HE is in the game. I'm officially angry because now you are guys are just liars. Total bullshitting liars. I'm never posting in this thread again. Continue to believe in your Ermac, he seems to be a God to you people. Matt

Oh quiet, you're gonna post again and you know it. You are the ONLY PERSON who thinks when we say "Ermac is in MK1" we litterally mean he was an intentionally programmed secret charecter to be fought against. It's just a lot simpler that way and anyone with two braincells knows what we mean.