No, but seriously. If you want to look at it this way, every character in fiction, be it literature or movies, is open to interpretation. Not everything about them has to be spelled out. In the hands of a good writer, their actions usually speak for themselves and definitively imply certain character traits better than any amount of dialogue can.

Hell, a "stoic, silent type" is one of the most popular archetypes in fiction since for-fucking-ever. Most of the time, they barely even talk, and the author barely tells us anything about them. He doesn't need to, because it's the character's actions that allow the audience to understand perfectly well what kind of person they're dealing with. And MK, particularly the older games, is pretty much all action.

Maybe that's what doesn't sit right with you? The fact that we're coming up with these elaborate character descriptions despite the fact that until a certain point, we've never even really seen these characters talk? Is that it?


But nothing that we're saying about Sub-Zero, for instance, is just wild conjecture based on flimsy evidence. It's just common sense stuff like:



Oh wow, this guy I'm playing as is kind of a fucking douchebag...



Okay, so the little brother seems like he's actually a nice guy!


See?

This ain't some Da Vinci code bullshit.


I know that, but you were implying that Havik is somehow a worse character for having started off as Noob's alt. Which is silly, because at the end, they ended up looking nothing alike.


I actually kinda like Hotaru, but not nearly as much as Havik. That, and I'm too tired and lazy right now to list the arguments in his defense.


Well, seeing as Mavado nearly killed him and took his shit, apparently not.

What Kabal really lacked was motivation. So Havik just decided to provide him with one, that's all.


I'm pretty sure Havik never had anything to do with Kahn, because as we found out in MK:Unchained, Kahn never actually died in MKDA.


Because the Elder Gogs have decided that Kahn's conquests have to go through the proper diplomatic channels, it takes him fucking centuries to properly beat another realm in Mortal Kombat, invade it and and annex it. On the other hand, Onaga messing around with the Kamidogus represents an immediate threat to the very existence of reality. A somewhat more pressing concern, one might say.


Another thing is that while Onaga certainly didn't fuck around when he was in charge in Outworld, his style was all about instilling law and order with an iron fist. And considering that his enforcers were the Terracota Mummies, he is basically MK's version of Qui Shi Huang, the first emperor of China. That's why Hotaru has such a boner for him.

Kahn, in comparison, is literally Genghis Khan. Not only will he conquer your realm, but he will raze it to the fucking ground and have his Tarkatan horde hate-fuck you to death.

So which one of these two do you think Havik would side with, purely out of principle?


This is the first time I'm hearing about this, and it's awesome.

To what extent was he involved? Is there an interview somewhere?


Pretty much this.

Y'know, personally, I definitely recall suggesting a few times in the past that we should really get to see what the more populated areas of Outworld look like, that places like Kahn's Koliseum can't just sit smack dab in the middle of a wasteland, and that in any kind of real world setting it would be surrounded by a fairly prosperous trading town.

And then MKX gets announced.

I see the Outworld Market, and I'm not sure what to think.

We know that guys from NRS lurk around these boards. So the way I see it, there is chance, however miniscule, that somebody from NRS might come across one of my posts. And If at least one of the things I wrote is passionate enough and convincing enough to somehow influence the games that I loved since I was 6 in some kind of lasting way, it's the greatest reward I could possibly hope for.

So I'll keep writing.

RIGHT ONE THE MARK , my good sir.


On contrary, considering how people and many fans responded to the game it was fanservice and very succesful at that.
And please, nobody seriously care about location of the Pit 2. And what was wrong with Bi-Han's personality? He was an arrogant douche in the MKM, he was pretty much this in MK9. Nightwolf did appear in MK1 events, because it made sense to put him - he is one of the strongest warriors on Earth. And the reason why he was not there in original - because he was not have been created at the time. And about Kahn's invasion - it was changed to make arenas more lively and interesting, rather than lifeless empty streets. Those are stylish, but from purely design point of view they are not very interesting to look at.
Bottom line: you are nitpicking and your hand must be in pain from all this reaching.


Because few things were changed here and there? Please...


His observations are based a lot on his own vision of the series, which not many people share, so its validity could be put under scrutiny.


Fans are overreacting, because things not like in their childhood and this is the only reason why MK9 receives some flak form storynerds. They have built their own headcanon for the last 20 years and MK9 ruined it. Now they pissed off. But, that's kind of ridicolous since series never belonged to them in the first place and changes were to be expected.


And I'd argue that you are wrong. Street Fighter aslo had a lot of media about its story. Yeah, in this series it was never so important as in MK, but don't make it look like it was something unique to MK. In MK series there were only three canon comic books, and everything else was no canon, which essentially makes it no different from Street Fighter additional media. So there.


Yes and no. Potential was there, but it was ultimately fans who connected it. MK never bothered to make many of those assumptions canon and in many cases there were outright shotdown. However, all this unbelievable depth some fans speak of, was just in their heads not in reality.

Xia was interesting person, but like Razor he had a huge ego. I respect him for his work, but his childish temper tantrum during days of MK9 make me lost a lot of respect to him. And he is a straight case of what I said above, about fans creating their own headcanon and being butthurt, when all of sudden developers do their own thing.


Well, that's what writers do, when they need to move story forward. Afain MK is not about story, MK is a fighting video game, where decisions regarding story often comes from external development. And yes, original timeline is essentially nullified, but given what was glimpsed in MKX I am confident in the future of MK series and believe, that those changed were not in vain.


Because lore IS intact. Outworld is still there, Edenia is still there, Chaosworld and Orderrealm do exist. Onaga do exist, Blaze and even nonsense quest to stop end of the world do exist. Elder Gods are still there. MK mythology is still intact and what was changed mostly concerns personal history of some characters, which doesn't nullify the whole lore. If you think, that Nightwolf presence in the first tournament or transformation of Sub-Zero into cyborg are somehow ruining MK overall mythology, than I can say you are quite delusional and overreacting.
Oh, yes, different opinion - trolling. Favorite argument of fanboys without arguments.


I believe, when writers do something they have some reasons to do it. They are not tightly pressed to make MK game every two years and they have plenty of time and money to make games according to their vision. So, killing mainstays certainly look like an unwise decision in the shport run, but I think, there were some reasons to do it. It was not just spur of the moment thing or just for shock value, but actuallt weighted twist, which will figure somehow in the overall new story.
Besides, if they did like in MKDA, I bet the very same fans would cry tears of anger, because some of the stories form the past games were not finished and characters just dissapperaed without traces.


I think it's because you know you can't win against my arguments, because they based on logic. Since, you are fanboy with headcanon, arguing with someone who doesn't have such predilections, mean, that your headcanon will be questioned and tore apart at every single turn, which is, as I aware, is the worst thing that can happen with fanboy's dreams.
Bottom line: you are afraid to argue because you can't win. And your words, that I have not proved to you anything, is just another marker of that.
And stop projecting your shortcomings on me. If you think, that you are epitome if niceness, understanding and conciliations I've got bad news for you, hon'.

You're one of the main reasons why i come back here too. We both care about the game and the story we grew up with that got butchered bad in its MK9 reboot... But like that one MKO user said, and i agree! I see you best fit as Loremaster of MKO

That's creepy

RedSumac, you are just spewing randomness without facts to back it up. You know sort of like the director/writer of Mortal Kombat Annihilation, on how he, crapped out a bunch of characters from the games, and expected people to identify their personalities based on their roles instead of having real character development like the first MK movie and expected it to be a good movie. Mortal Kombat of the past , had its roots in comic books, so it was no different from Spider-Man or X-men.

1.Bi-Han's personality:

In MK Mythologies showed the original Sub-Zero was just a guy who just wanted to do his job. He HATED being being used by Qaun Chi and Raiden. Ultimately, he did help Raiden , because of the greater good, though he was evil, he had some good in him as Raiden said. How do I know this? Look at the way Sub-Zero behaves when being used by 3rd parties and how the game played out.


2. "Nightwolf did appear in MK1 events, because it made sense to put him - he is one of the strongest warriors on Earth. And the reason why he was not there in original - because he was not have been created at the time."

Wow, thanks captain obvious. Also, he didn't need to be there. It was just another example of the writers "MK Annihilation" type of storytelling, by shoving as many characters as possible, without giving them a reason reason to be there.

""Fans are overreacting, because things not like in their childhood and this is the only reason why MK9 receives some flak form storynerds. They have built their own headcanon for the last 20 years and MK9 ruined it. Now they pissed off. But, that's kind of ridicolous since series never belonged to them in the first place and changes were to be expected. ""

You must be bewildered, to what is going on, since you are grasping straws, in terms of what happened in both timelines. By the way, many of the "headcannon" you mentioned, is fact. Like the events that happened, not made up.

Believe it or not, people have read the bios and endings, to know what is going on. The only headcannon going on, are people who have no clue what is going on, in the original timeline. The thing is, the MK mythology isn't that hard to grasp. A person could read for like a hour or less to get all the bios from each game, and watch a 1 hour worth of watching cinematic of MK Mythologies on youtube, to get what going on.


If the MK team wanted to do a time travel story, they should have at least, got the original storyline right, so when Raiden changed things it would have made a whole lot of sense. Things like Sub-Zero working with Tsung, instead being on a mission to kill him, also Sonya rescuing Jax was wrong since it was Jax looking for Sonya post MK1, don't make sense because these plot points had nothing to do with the time travel.

I'm done here, RedSumac. You are the one making incorrect assumptions why people dislike the storymode, just because it was a time travel reboot. I won't fall for your troll bait, therefore I have no reason to argue with someone who doesn't even understand the argument against MK9's storymode.



Yeah, anyone who is a long time fan of a comic book series, or film trilogy, is creepy , that knows what is going on. More so, how events in the past shaped the future.

I'm glad Razor is here. He's very knowledgable with the lore and I find that helpful because I have terrible memory. I have been playing the series since I was five, but my memory doesn't always help me out.

I am also an old timeline, storyline, whatever you want to call it, purist, especially when it comes to Kitana, Mileena, Shao Kahn. It still boggles my mind, why the fuck NRS would retcon that so terribly. Let's just completely ruin one of the best back stories and Mileena's character while we're at it.

I don't remember quoting "being a long time fan of comic book series, or film trilogy" being creepy.

I apologize. I misread.

Yes i was, stop making you look stupid by assuming things you know nothing about. "Kids" these days smh

Oh its simple, I can go anywhere to get MK news. If I wanted someone to break down MK's gameplay I wouldn't visit here. I skip the majority of people's posts unless its a name I recognize at this point, or its a lengthy post. MKO has one of the more disrespectful communities I've been apart of.

Razor is one of the few person I've seen in the MK community who has the knowledge of MK Lore and still participates in discussions.

I have been lurking here in some way or another for 8 - 9 years. It's the only MK website I still visit because it has more interesting posters. Razor may dislike MK9's story (because it is written very poorly), but he still knows more about it then almost everyone who tries to criticize him about disliking it.

I've actually really enjoyed this discussion. Seeing some of you post shows how much you care about the story (even if MK9's did blow).

Also, I agree with many others here. Razor knows all of the lore and is probably the best user here. If he left this place wouldn't be the same. So, here's hoping you stay for a good long while Razor.

I will say this though. Why is anyone, I mean ANYONE, still responding to Sumac? He is either trolling or so damn self righteous that he can't admit he's wrong.

See? Revisionist history, every time you talk to or about me. You remember our past arguments the way YOU want to, not the way they actually happened, and lie to yourself and everyone else.

That's why I'm not doing it anymore. I did it over and over and over again for like THREE YEARS and what did it EVER get me? All you did was gradually become a bigger and bigger jerk! Talking to you accomplishes the OPPOSITE of the desired effect! At this point I don't care WHAT you believe or tell people because no one listens to your opinion anymore anyway, they're starting to view you as a troll.
This board saves every post we've ever made, nothing is ever purged and there is a search function that allows you to find posts by the poster's name. Any time anyone wants to see a past argument between me and you, and see who "won", that's all they have to do. That's all YOU have to do if you want to argue with me again and fulfill this bizarre desire of yours to relive stuff we've said to each other in the past by repeating it over and over.

... I stopped after my very last post to him when he said that characters really shouldn't have side stories. Like, it's horrible to have them be apart of something in Mortal Kombat that "hardly" serves a purpose to the main plot of the story.

Character development... pff, who needs that?

See, and that's why Kitana has awesome stories. But as I said before, I just feel like she's just thrown out of the importance and just is there to serve as a character from another realm. Again, this is how I see it, not necessarily how anyone else sees it. I never really said she isn't an important character, because really, she is. However, I just don't think a lot of people see how important her side stuff is. That's just how I see it totally.

"Fans are overreacting, because things not like in their childhood and this is the only reason why MK9 receives some flak form storynerds. They have built their own headcanon for the last 20 years and MK9 ruined it. Now they pissed off. But, that's kind of ridicolous since series never belonged to them in the first place and changes were to be expected. "

LOL! Seriously, what exactly are you missing here within these last few pages? Do you need to have this debate spelled out to you numerous times before the argument begins to sink in?

I've already stated I'm not losing my shit here due to nostalgia (funny how you skipped that part, selective reading again at it's best). I'm fine with changes! Bring on the Dragon King, the Deadly Alliance, Shao Kahn clones and Taven and Daegon. I welcome change if it expands and elaborates what is already there.

What MK9 done was change things just for the sake of changing them. They made changes to character origins just for the fucking LOLZ of it all , changes which Raiden's time travel should have had no effect on whatsoever. It's not "fan boy headcannon" to spot the obvious. I'd be fine with MK9 going back into the past and starting a fresh if they kept the character origins intact. But they didn't, they fucked them up just for the sake of it. That's the issue here.

Remember when this thread was about Kitana?



Me neither...

It's only natural that "why is character X underdeveloped" would turn into "ARE they underdeveloped?" and thus turn into a debate about how deep the story actually is, and whether or not the reboot made it way more shallow.
Also, Sumac is the Reverse King Midas, threads he touches have a habit of turning to shit.

Razor and T-rex, just DON'T leave this place, I know you guys won't,but still...The story nerd circle SHALL NOT BE BROKEN!

Regarding Kitana, I just hope she finally becomes the Queen of Edenia once she is resurrected. I have lost all hope that NRS can do justice to her anymore,so if not that, then just kill her off permanently.

So...this thread went from Kitana and MK story discussion to competition who kiss Razor's ass more. Hi-la-r-i-ous.
Certainly sroking his already enormous ego will make him even better in arguments and even better person. LOL.
I am afraid you will regret doing this one day.

Now for more interesting matters:

Of course, logical stuff is randomness for you. Why. Dealing with reality must be awfully boring, let make some stuff up.
My facts are what was presented in the series proper, not my headcanon. And whatever origin MK has it has nothing to do with discussion at hand, since MK is not a comic book series, with all what this entails.


Also, he was loyal Lin Kuei warrior (loyal to a fault). How exactly MK9 contradicted this? The answer: it didn't and you just imagined this stuff. And telling me that I am using randomness...WTH.


Another needless nitpicking. What a horrible crime against story: let use characters from games that were invented later in the story set a bit earlier. You do understand, my zealous opponent, that it was impossible to tell story of tournament without having some additional characters, right? In the end NRS would be forced to either reintroduce some characters from the future games or create some new faces, like it was done in MK movie. Personally I prefer the first option as it gives more opportunity to see more of a core MK characters instead of random people, who would be forgotten after this storyline.


You good at rhyming dude, not so with arguments. I don't need to grasp at straws, it's what you do with your nitpicking and attempting to find horrible crimes of writers, where there were non. Or at least, where they do not exist for somebody with the sense of moderation and logic. My straws are steel cables, your straws - are thin threads. So there.


I have only a vague idea what you were trying to say...maybe. If it was directed at me - I know MK lore, rather well. I even have my own Wikia about it. If it was directed at audience in general, I don't see what exactly it has to do with anything.


I am sorry, but before nitpicking on the MK9 storyline and me, you'd better to learn MK lore yourself. Sub-Zero (Bi-Han) was hired by Shang Tsung at the end of MKM. And Sonya was forced to participate in the tenth tournament because her team was taken hostage. Jax wasn't present there, but this is minor change, which allowed for more character interaction.


I am not sure, if understood you well, oh, woefull, headcanon warrior, whose heart is so big and whose speech is so awkward.

But as I said before, resorting to calling people "trolls" is the sure way to prove that you don't have actual arguments to present and that you are unsure of your ability to prove anything. Considering that RIGHT HERE AND RIGHT NOW I have smashed all your nitpicking shit, you don't have anything to show except for your insults and ego. So, go in the corner and thing about your behavior, so next time when you try to argue you'll present something more decent rather than this randomness.


And the perfectly valid response:



The only thing that they see that you haven't won anything either. But generally it depends who's side people prefer to support from the start.


Upgrade your reading comprehension subboy, I have meant completely different thing.


I believe, there was a plan and even if there wasn't...the result was not so bad. At least for me. More opportunities to new characters rise. Not a tragedy.


Oh, what a tough guy we have here. Guess, you earn daily achievements by being so "cool". Ha-ha.

Besides, you actually think you are any better? Don't spread lies: your touch turns everything into fanboish circlejerk where everyone either agree with you or called trolls and "people who don't understand anything about story". You are nothing, but whiny fanboy, who can't swallow the fact that real developers ignored his precious headcanon and did something different without consulting with "ol' mighty Razer". Hurt your ego quite a lot, eh buddy?

I'm going to address the only thing you said that isn't about personalities clashing...to point out that it's incorrect:



No, Sub-Zero was being INVITED by Shang Tsung at the end of MKM.

Which was ALWAYS canon because MK1 established that tournament attendance was by invitation only.

That's why Liu's temple could only send one guy, because they only had one invitation.

That's why Sonya was captured and her team thrown in the dungeon, because she wasn't invited.

Sub being hired to kill Shang is ALSO a thing that happened, AFTER he was invited. He was chosen for the job BECAUSE he was invited.
That ain't rocket science, it ain't subtle or hidden and I didn't make it up.
And don't start blaming me for the fact that everyone calls you a troll, you did this to yourself and you know it. What happened to that "I don't care what people think of me" attitude you had like six months ago when I warned you this is where your behavior would lead you?

Actually, in the OT, Bi-Han was invited by Shang Tsung to participate in his tournament, not hired to serve him. The way his character was portrayed in MK9 was hardly a problem compared to other characters. My main problem with MK9's story had to do with the core of the story, which is centered around an idiot plot.

On another note, Kitana being underdeveloped is far from the case. She did have quite a story in the OT, and it wasn't until the likes of games such as MK: Shaolin Monks did we start to see Kitana portrayed in more of a different light. With the later games, Kitana has lost something of that edge, which is really unfortunate. The solution for her and the mythology overall is to have a different mentality in terms of storytelling, one that's centered around telling that ensemble story while naturally developing characters in their story arcs.

It occurs to me that, as often as you use that phrase, I'm not sure everyone's aware that "idiot plot" is an actual technical term and doesn't just mean "I think the plot is idiotic".

So just to clarify for the benefit of others, an "Idiot Plot" is a story that can only move from point A to point B if the characters suddenly become idiots, i.e. act uncharacteristically irrationally or deliberately fail to think about what's going on.

Deception Konquest, Shaolin Monks, vsDCU, and MK9 ALL worked that way.
To a certain extent you could argue Armageddon does too, as Argus and Delia really should have noticed early on that everything they had set up to prevent her prophecy were the very things that CAUSED it to come true. If they had simply never created Blaze and the pyramid, no "reality-destroying war" would have happened.

For someone to act like they're all high and mighty, tells people to read up on lore that supposedly they don't know and STILL gets the damn lore wrong themselves is pretty hilarious and embarrassing. Granted this thread isn't about Sub-Zero, pretty far from that, if you're gonna argue to tell someone to go back to read up on the lore they "don't know" you might want to double check on stuff BEFORE you start acting like a "teacher." And I'm being extremely generous in saying that because you're far from that, Red.

If you're really bothered by people calling you a troll, maybe you should stop having "ignorant responses." I mean, this is how the site views you, a troll, I'm not sure where on the comparison level between WTFlegend and Hankypanky, but I've seen that word be used by several users. Maybe you should, I don't know, stop being ignorant and so high and mighty when there's no need for it?

I don't see any ass-kissing posts in this, people obviously enjoy users who KNOWS what they're talking about rather than someone who claims they know everything and ACTUALLY gets stuff wrong. I may have butted heads nastily with Razor in the past, I may have thought the way he corrects things was in a very ignorant manner, but that's just how the guy is. I'd rather believe someone who knows what they're talking about (even if it didn't look like it in the past) rather than someone who majority of the site calls a "troll" and gets things wrong.

Also, subboy? What... what in the world is that?

ANYWAYS

Kitana... yeah... her hair also seems to get very developed in every game she's been in.

...there's only ONE MK Loremaster, and it's not RedSumac, T-Rex, or Razor.

...it's Boon. Ed Boon. The MK series co-creator and current head of the IP. And only what he (and NRS) decides is canon is actually canon and relevant. If Mr. Boon turned around tomorrow and said "Sub-Zero was always a pink ninja with an affinity for hop-scotch", then that's canon and no amount of bitching or hand-wringing would change that.

Everyone's knowledge of the MK story is admirable, but that doesn't make the MK story immutable. Because none of you own the IP, you have no say over where the story goes or even if it's completely revised or scrapped entirely. Only Boon and Co. have that freedom.

The same is true of Star Wars. I LOVE Star Wars, and I particularly enjoyed reading through the EU. Spent years reading about the adventures of Luke and his New Jedi Order, the rise of Darth Caedus, the coming of Abeloth, and even the resurgence of the Empire further in the future. And I very much enjoyed the plethora of stories set in the Old Republic era. I became invested in all of the characters and watched them grow (Luke, Ben, Revan, Malgus, Leia, Han, Jaina, Jacen, Kreia, Satele, Tahiri, Lumiya, Bastila, Ackbar, Winter, ect).

And then one day, the EU was rendered largely irrelevant because folks like Mr. Lucas and Disney wanted to make new movies, with a new story and a unified canon. I was (am) heartbroken about the EU's demise, canon-wise. A lot of my time was invested into it, and I found the stories to be more than entertaining. My knowledge of the EU is expansive, but that doesn't change the fact that it's no longer canon.

Why?

I don't own Star Wars. Disney does, and they can go in whatever fuck direction they want with the story. They can reinvent characters, erase entire storylines, ect. And there's not a damn thing I can do to change that. Now, I could go on forums and bitch and moan like a hormonal ghost drifting down the corridors of nostalgia, spouting off the likes of:

"No! That didn't happen originally!"
"That doesn't make sense. See, in Vector Prime..."
"In the original timeline..."

It just doesn't matter. What's done is done, and I can either get on board with the new canon (keeping in mind that I can always go back to enjoy the old canon anytime the mood strikes me), or I can rail fruitlessly against something I never had an iota of say in regards to in the first place. And my encyclopedia knowledge of the old canon doesn't entitle me to any influence whatsoever.

The same is true of NRS, the old MK timeline, and MK9-beyond. Boon largely controls the destiny of MK, not us. NRS writes the story, not us. If they want to change *everything* about the MK story and the characters, they can. *We* can either get on board and support the new direction as a community, or we can cry endlessly about how things were different in the old continuity and pointlessly cite esoteric examples of such.

The old timeline is still there to be enjoyed, but NRS (the *true* Loremasters of MK) has decided to make a new continuity.

*shrugs*

Get with it, or get out.

Your "lore" is, for the most part, no longer relevant.

lol you have heard of a Retcon ... right? Because something that was canon and changed later is typically considered a terrible fucking way of writing. Again, like MK9's story all you want, but it is still bad writing.

The Transformer movies can be fun to watch, doesn't change the fact that their scripts are horrendous.

Why is it every thinks either you're stuck in the past because of the retcons, or you're nitpicking because the script was terrible? If MK9 was the very first MK ever made it would still be a shitty script with an idiot plot.

If writers want to go around retconning everything, people will notice and they will complain. And they have every right to.

The pomposity of this thread burned my eyebrows off. That said, I'm with ReptzMK. The story doesn't even really belong to anyone at this point. MK has grown outside of the games themselves, everyone has a different frame of reference for the story of MK. As time goes on it will change more and more, which isn't something to complain about either. If MK didn't change, it would die. MK isn't supposed to take itself that seriously. At a time it was, but not anymore.