Should they stay or should they go? Character for debate: Shang Tsung

About Me

•02/10/2010 08:46 PM (UTC) •

Well thank you for being more clear.

PS: whether you hated the gameplay and acting in Mythologies or not, the Prison Stage DID fit into MK4 because it's where Hell keeps it's damned and MK4's villains were the rulers and legions of Hell. Kinda obvious. That's all I'm sayin'.
MK4 and MKM's storylines were way more important to the mythology of the series than people give credit for. I would say, in fact, that Mythologies is the cornerstone of every story told in the MK universe. Every single game has something that ties back to an event or character from MKM, and the storytelling methods employed set the example that all of the Konquest modes follow.

About Me

<img src=http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb424/astro407/Baraka407---Baraka-Sig---GIF1.gif?t=1302751589

•02/10/2010 08:55 PM (UTC) •

Wow, I babbled on in those two posts for so long that I didn't even see a new character was introduced.

I'm really sorry about that Icebaby. I'll keep on topic from now on and if I have a long, rambly post that's not about the character being talked about, I'll stick to IM. I feel like I'm almost bordering on spamming your thread and that's CERTAINLY NOT my intention!

I just keep getting interested in all of these sort of subtopics or whatever. Plus there seem to be a lot of smart people that know their MK in this thread and I dig that.

Ermac: I'm really torn on him/them. On one hand, I saw him as sort of a one off for Trilogy. Sort of a love letter to fans. Then MK:D comes out and he's totally redesigned and looking flat out awesome. His weapon is cool, his moves are cool and his look is cool as well.

But do we really need two people that use telekenetic attacks? I could certainly see Ermac as sort of a guide for Kenshi, but to me, that just throws him further in to the support role. Much like henchmen, I really don't like support characters.

If I'm supposed to believe that MK is a collection of the best fighters that are fighting for the big prize, whatever it may be, then I don't overly want to use a bunch of henchmen and support characters.

So without Kenshi, what can Ermac really do? I'm not a huge fan of his overall story of being a collection of defeated warriors that were brought together by Shao Khan to serve him. Maybe he has some sort of stuggle in order to try and be one human? Maybe he purges all other defeated warriors from him? Perhaps this changes him from being Ermac to being that one warrior? It's kind of like his Armageddon ending, only not really and without the suck.

I dunno, the more I look at Ermac's background, the less I can see in terms of future potential. It's a shame too, because his look and his moves were great in MK:D and his plot with Kenshi worked for that game.

I'd say rework his story somehow, but bring him back as a bonus, hidden character only.

VERDICT: STAY, but just barely.

Historical Favorite

@OptimusGrime

•02/10/2010 08:56 PM (UTC) •

On topic: Of course Ermac needs to come back. The MK team has barely scratched the surface of what could be done with his telekinetic powers in game.

Off topic:

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Y'know what you get when you say "let's go back to the MK1 feel"? You get Kobra. Everyone HATED Kobra! Why? Because he didn't fit. He was a throwback to MK1 and the time for throwbacks to MK1 is long since over.

In what way is Kobra a throwback to MK1? He's based entirely on Ken Masters. Explain yourself.

XiahouDun84

@XiahouDun84

•02/10/2010 08:58 PM (UTC) •

OptimusGrime Wrote:

In what way is Kobra a throwback to MK1? He's based entirely on Ken Masters. Explain yourself.

He's actually meant to be a homage to Johnny Lawrence from Karate Kid. Like how Liu Kang is a homage to Bruce Lee. And Johnny Cage to Jean Claude Van Damme.

Cobra Kai never die!

acidslayer

@acidslayer

About Me

•02/10/2010 08:58 PM (UTC) •

i'd say keep ermac. but i would like him to use the arena to his advantage by using his telakinatic power similar how that power is used in bioshock.
maybe a tad bit different. although if ermac returns i'd rather not see kenshi.

Historical Favorite

@OptimusGrime

•02/10/2010 08:59 PM (UTC) •

XiahouDun84 Wrote:

OptimusGrime Wrote:

In what way is Kobra a throwback to MK1? He's based entirely on Ken Masters. Explain yourself.

He's actually meant to be a homage to Johnny Lawrence from Karate Kid.

Cobra Kai never die!

SWEEP THE LEG!!!

About Me

<img src=http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb424/astro407/Baraka407---Baraka-Sig---GIF1.gif?t=1302751589

•02/10/2010 09:03 PM (UTC) •

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Well thank you for being more clear.

PS: whether you hated the gameplay and acting in Mythologies or not, the Prison Stage DID fit into MK4 because it's where Hell keeps it's damned and MK4's villains were the rulers and legions of Hell. Kinda obvious. That's all I'm sayin'.

MK4 and MKM's storylines were way more important to the mythology of the series than people give credit for. I would say, in fact, that Mythologies is the cornerstone of every story told in the MK universe. Every single game has something that ties back to an event or character from MKM.

Agreed! No, I definitely remember what you're saying about the Prison Stage. As soon as you said it, I remembered. Shinnok wanting to make Hell in to a version of Earth, but failing because it was hell, so everything was twisted in a way. I definitely recall that.

Begredugingly... Sadly. Ugh, why couldn't that game have played like MK:SM? I mean sure, the graphics obviously wouldn't have been there yet since it was a generation before, but my God, I just remember trying to jump on those godawful swing platforms and there was almost no way of telling whether you were jumping on the platform or jumping to your death.

Just a horribly designed game. But yeah, there was a ton of story in that game and a large part of what we ACTUALLY know beyond the intros for each game comes from MKM. That's about 95% of why I slogged through it in the first place lol.

About Me

•02/10/2010 09:05 PM (UTC) •

Baraka407 Wrote:
So without Kenshi, what can Ermac really do?

This:

Five on one against some of the series' greatest heroes and Ermac is "more than a match". Kenshi is the one who's a henchman, Ermac is the master. Recognize.

Besides, how many guys does MK have who use fire? How many sorcerers? Lots of folks have the same power source, it's only a problem when their actual special moves are identical. So give them different looking attacks and the fact that they're both psychic won't matter at all.

XiahouDun84 Wrote:

OptimusGrime Wrote:

In what way is Kobra a throwback to MK1? He's based entirely on Ken Masters. Explain yourself.

He's actually meant to be a homage to Johnny Lawrence from Karate Kid. Like how Liu Kang is a homage to Bruce Lee. And Johnny Cage to Jean Claude Van Damme.

Cobra Kai never die!

THANK YOU.

I thought that was common knowledge. How do you not know that, Grime?

So do you see now how they were trying to go back to the "characters inspired by kung fu movies" thing that they haven't done since MK1?

XiahouDun84

@XiahouDun84

•02/10/2010 09:14 PM (UTC) •

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
This:

Five on one against some of the series' greatest heroes and Ermac is "more than a match".

Tell the truth, it kind of bugged me they made Ermac look that powerful. Even though I hate three of those five characters....way to make the so-called "greatest heroes" look like total chumps.

But anway, in regard to Ermac and Kenshi....personally, I would rather the put more emphasis on Kenshi's swordsmanship in his special moves than the telekinetic stuff. Just my opinion, but I found the "master swordsman" aspect of Kenshi more interesting than his telekinesis.

Not saying they should completely abandon Kenshi's telekinetic moves, but I'd rather being a swordsman be more his thing and telekinesis be more Ermac's thing.

Sadistic_Freak

@Sadistic_Freak

•02/10/2010 09:19 PM (UTC) •

I wouldn't mind having Ermac around. But it should either be Kenshi OR Ermac to make it in the next game. Not both, unless one is going to be selectable and the other is hidden. If that's the case, I'll have Ermac be selectable and Kenshi to be a secret character due to his sword and telekinetic skills.

About Me

<img src=http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb424/astro407/Baraka407---Baraka-Sig---GIF1.gif?t=1302751589

•02/10/2010 09:28 PM (UTC) •

Razor, I know that Ermac's powerful. lol.

I just meant that in terms of story, what can he offer? I get that he can kick ass, but that's not exactly a story element.

I'm just trying to envision what his next role could be post-Armageddon. I mean, at the end of Deception, was it Blaze that he foresaw as the evil of the realms that was pulling at the Dragon King, despite his being unaware? Or was it the one being?

Before, I always took Ermac's sense of the future to be his predicting Armageddon. I fthat's the case, then yeah, my most logical thought is for Ermac's next step to be a sort of guide or master for Kenshi, which would make him more of a support character. That's what I meant before, not that he was beneath Kenshi somehow.

But maybe he's predicting an impending battle with The One Being? Or something along those lines. In which case, Ermac could be an invaluable part of the next story. It just depends on how his MK:D ending is interpreted.

What do you think?

About Me

•02/10/2010 09:31 PM (UTC) •

XiahouDun84 Wrote:

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
This:

Five on one against some of the series' greatest heroes and Ermac is "more than a match".

Tell the truth, it kind of bugged me they made Ermac look that powerful. Even though I hate three of those five characters....way to make the so-called "greatest heroes" look like total chumps.

It never bothered me but that's because Kung Lao and Kitana are the only ones of the five that I think are good fighters. Sonya, Jax, and Johnny have never been useful or won any important fights.

Also they were all under mind control. Having no free will would logically dull one's abilities and instincts in battle.

Baraka407 Wrote:
Razor, I know that Ermac's powerful. lol.

I just meant that in terms of story, what can he offer? I get that he can kick ass, but that's not exactly a story element.

I'm just trying to envision what his next role could be post-Armageddon. I mean, at the end of Deception, was it Blaze that he foresaw as the evil of the realms that was pulling at the Dragon King, despite his being unaware? Or was it the one being?

Before, I always took Ermac's sense of the future to be his predicting Armageddon. I fthat's the case, then yeah, my most logical thought is for Ermac's next step to be a sort of guide or master for Kenshi, which would make him more of a support character. That's what I meant before, not that he was beneath Kenshi somehow.

But maybe he's predicting an impending battle with The One Being? Or something along those lines. In which case, Ermac could be an invaluable part of the next story. It just depends on how his MK:D ending is interpreted.

What do you think?

I kinda already said what I think in my first post about Ermac, but I guess I can elaborate.
I've already established that I would get rid of Bo' Rai Cho and Li Mei. Now, once you do that, then Ermac is the ONLY good guy who lives in Outworld. He's the hero of a whole realm. Kenshi, on the other hand, is just another guy from Earth.
I'm a huge Kenshi fan, don't get me wrong, but he's not useful to the story, while Ermac is. I'd have Ermac as a main character from now on, while if Kenshi does come back, it should only be as a surprise hidden character, this wandering badass who shows up out of nowhere to settle disputes with wisdom and samurai-ness.
BTW: In his ending, he wasn't seeing the future, he was sensing the One Being's presence. It says so specificially with the words "He could feel its influence on Onaga, though the Dragon King was oblivious to its manipulation." That could only refer to the One Being, especially since Armageddon hadn't been concieved yet when Deception came out. There are no Armageddon references in the whole game unless you get the PSP version with Frost, Kitana, Blaze, and Jax added.

About Me

<img src=http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb424/astro407/Baraka407---Baraka-Sig---GIF1.gif?t=1302751589

•02/10/2010 10:05 PM (UTC) •

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:

I'm a huge Kenshi fan, don't get me wrong, but he's not useful to the story, while Ermac is. I'd have Ermac as a main character from now on, while if Kenshi does come back, it should only be as a surprise hidden character, this wandering badass who shows up out of nowhere to settle disputes with wisdom and samurai-ness.

BTW: In his ending, he wasn't seeing the future, he was sensing the One Being's presence. It says so specificially with the words "He could feel its influence on Onaga, though the Dragon King was oblivious to its manipulation." That could only refer to the One Being, especially since Armageddon hadn't been concieved yet when Deception came out. There are no Armageddon references in the whole game unless you get the PSP version with Frost, Kitana, Blaze, and Jax added.

Okay, getting rid of BRC and Li Mei, I'm on the same page with ya there. I've already said why I don't like the former and the latter is jsut too much of an almost Mileena for me to care as much about her. The slave storyline was interesting, but then they crapped on it by making her a lover (?) of the Dragon King. eew. I dont' care of Dragons are mythical, it still looks like beastiality to me, and not to make a bad joke (too late) but that's an "ality" I'd rather not see in MK.

Rim shot!!

But yeah, I like the idea of Kenshi being a lone, wandering swordsman as he was at the start of his MK:DA storyline. I like that a whole lot more than "Special Forces lackey" or whatever his figurative title would be in MK:D.

I didn't mean "seeing the future," in a literal sense. I knew that i misspoke when I said that. I meant, was he sensing Armageddon was coming, or was he sensing the One Being? While the latter seems obvious, given the whole plot of the very next game, it could easily be interpreted that the former was what they were alluding to.

Maybe Armageddon wasn't announced yet, maybe the ideas weren't even written down by Ed Boon yet, but maybe in his mind, he was intending to have the next game be this sort of apocalyptic battle. Tough to say.

But yeah, even as the sole good guy from Outworld, is that enough to put him in the next game? I mean, isn't Havik the only real representative from Chaosrealm? Should that give him a free ticket in to the next MK game?

I get it though, you like Ermac and you think he's got a place in the future games. Dispite his name being Error Macro and that he was a glitch to begin with, I think the MK team really stepped it up with him and made him a great character in MK:D, much more so than his previous appearance in Trilogy.

Like I said, I'd be cool with him staying, I just don't know what his story would be. Okay, he senses the One Being, he's the lone warrior left from Outworld... Sooooo, what's his actual reason for being in the next game? That he sensed the One Being and must destory him? Okay... I guess.

Maybe it's that desire in me to get more plot, more depth of character, more gray area in terms of good/evil etc... But I almost feel like he should have more to do in the game than just sensing the bad guy and wanting to destroy him. That's where Ermac kinda starts to lose me. I just don't see where the real depth would come from.

Again though, that's just me and that's just what I, personally want out of MK. If that story is enough for you, then more power to ya. Seriously.

About Me

•02/10/2010 10:13 PM (UTC) •

Important things, especially villainous plots, usually happen in Outworld. Thus, the defender of Outworld is important and his place in the plot is obvious. The way you're questioning Ermac's future, I could say the exaxt same about Sub-Zero, Sonya, Kung Lao, etc.
Obviously, in order to explain where the "depth" in his future storylines would come from, I'd have to write the plot to an entire goddamned video game, come up with villains and connections between characters, the whole nine yards. I've never written fan fiction or made topics like XD's MK: Rebirth stuff. Not that I wouldn't like to...but it ain't worth it. Who would appreciate the effort?

Reptile1112

@Reptile1112

About Me

You will die mortal. TOASTY Speed Metal will never die.

•02/10/2010 10:29 PM (UTC) •

I really like the direction they took Ermac in recently. And that's hard for me, since it was cool to see Ermac as a "normal" villain. Either way, I like the character, and I think he should return.