I've always liked Frost, she is one of my favourite "new" characters.
She has cool moves and fatalities and looks awesome.

I hope she returns in the future. STAY!

I thought that Frost was a decent add as far as characters go when MK:DA first came out. After using her though, I was a bit let down. Yes, she has ice powers like Sub Zero, but if she's going to have 2 of his moves stolen directly from him, she should have at least a few more moves that are her own. Special moves are part of what make a character unique.

Of course, that's more the fault of MK:DA, where many characters still only had 2 or 3 special moves. But still, if a lot of MK fans can look down on characters like Kira for having a move list built from other, existing MK characters, then Frost isn't above that condemnation just because she has ice powers like Sub Zero. To me, that excuse doesn't fly.

I hate to bag on one of your favorite characters icebaby, but I honestly just never saw the need for Frost to exist in the first place. A female ninja with ice powers... It just sounds like a blatant rip off of the original, and it's rare when rip offs ever approach the quality of originals.

I honestly wasn't a fan of her overall look either. Her hair is...ice? I mean the rest of her original outfit makes perfect sense and looks cool (I agree that her second skank outfit is blatantly unnecessary and pretty much out of place given that she's a freakin Ninja), but the ice hair looked like it would be more appropriate in something like X-Men, not Mortal Kombat.

I know, that's a bit of a thin line, but that, coupled with her Armageddon ending that has her being a descendent from a line of cryomancers? Wait, so she's from Outworld? I kind of did a double take the first time I read that. It just sort of seems like more piling on to make her story seem interesting and for me at least, it failed.

However, I don't think that she's that weak of a character overall. Perhaps give her long, light blonde hair and you immediately take away one of the biggest things that I can't stand about her.

Plus, I do like the "lost apprentice" angle with her and Sub Zero and like Icebaby said, what will she be like when she comes out of her coma? They could make her twice as powerful and evil, they could make her crazy, they could have her be horrified by what she did and in need of going down a long road of repentence.

The last idea is a bit far fetched considering the fact that she only joined the Lin Kuei to become Grand Master. But maybe her near destruction of the clan could somehow give her perspective on what her lust for power actually accomplished in the end. I dunno, maybe that's asking for too much depth from a character in MK. Who knows.

Either way, I see some potential in her, but they'd have to make a LOT of improvements. New hair, a better overall look for her alt outfit, more original moves (and more moves in general) and a better story. That latter part... I see the potential, but I just don't see it playing out.

Bottom line, they REALLY need to make her stand on her own two feet as an individual character. Otherwise she'll always just be the "female sub zero" and to me that's a waste of a character slot no matter how you look at her.

VERDICT: GONE but just barely. I wouldn't be horribly upset if they brought her back, but it just seems like there's too much to change to make her more than her concept. Plus, if she's not feuding with Sub Zero, what's her function?

Sorry Frost, but we have a fighter with ice powers, and we have a fighter who is a blue female ninja. Whether you make fanboys angry, or give them a boner, you still gotta go.

Ermac
He is always one of the hardest for me to answer. I do love me some Ermac, I really do. I think his character really came through in Deception, and he sort of saved the asses of many of Earthrealm's best warriors. They took from "half-joke character" and complete filler, and turned him into this important figure in the Mortal Kombat universe.
That being said, doesn't anyone else feel he steps on Kenshi's toes a little bit. As a character I definitely feel should return, it makes little sense to have two "psychic warriors" in one game. Even with completely different moves and a mentor/student dynamic between them. For the sake of streamlining, I think Ermac should be taken out. Even for the sake of story, he steps on the toes of other fresher Outworld characters like Bo' Rai Cho and Li Mei.
They struck gold with Ermac in Deception, but I think it should only stay in Deception. It's nothing against Ermac, it's just that I don't see a really compelling case for him staying on besides "he's a very cool character" (which he is).
There's something tragic about Ermac that I think could see the character brought to a tragic end. What if during Armageddon, Ermac confronted Shao Kahn and was defeated, and all the souls that he was composed of were absorbed, and Ermac was forced to serve Shao Kahn again? Or perhaps after his destruction, Ermac can slowly be rebuilding himself across the realms. Think the ending to Brad Bird's animated film "The Iron Giant." Ermac sacrifices himself for the good of Earth and Outworld, even if they don't want him as their saviour, and as a result he is destroyed, but has so much will and resilience that he could come back as a presence for future games.
Perhaps Ermac can simply go about some sort of personal quest after Armageddon? Travelling the realms to do good, until he redeems the sins he committed as Shao Kahn's slave? That leaves him open for a return? Maybe you could even enter one of those good ol' fashion cheat codes, and unlock Ermac as strictly a versus fighter, beating the crap out of people with some similar specials to Kenshi, and some unique fighting styles.
That I've talked about Ermac so much should show that I really do like him. But for the sake of streamlining, I think he should be removed from the pool of main characters in the next game -- I will say that.
Frost
I never liked Frost. She was definitely my least favourite of the new characters introduced in Deadly Alliance (okay, except for Mokap). I just think there was so much about her that was redundant. Some elements about her worked:

* I liked that she was a student of Sub-Zero. It shows that Subby is now a mentor and emphasises that he is using the Lin Kuei for good. I don't know why Frost needed Kori powers, like she was his daughter or something, but the teacher/student thing was needed for Sub-Zero.

* It was good that she held a mirror up to Sub-Zero. When he saw her consumed by her negative qualities, it put doubt into his mind as to whether or not he was a good teacher. That is human development for Sub-Zero that furthers our investment into him as a protagonist, in my opinion.

The funny thing about these points, is that they both relate entirely to Sub-Zero, and his personal development. It has nothing to do with Frost being a good character. That being said, I think Frost should be killed off, and Sub-Zero move forward from here. What Sub-Zero now needs is a pupil that can redeem himself in his own eyes. Whether that is Sareena or a new character is up to you.

Alright, a change of look, some new fighting styles and such might re-juvenate my interest in her a bit -- especially if she became the Anakin Skywalker to Sub-Zero's Obi-Way Kenobi; but I think even that is a bit of a stretch for interest. Star Wars on Ice is not enough reason for me to want to see Frost back over other characters that are more demanding for the spot, in my opinion.

I see no reason for Frost to return.

She was good for Sub-Zero's character development, establishing his desire to train a successor or leave a legacy behind, and how failure effects him and dealing with her being a rebellious traitor and all that...but that's all over now and thus, so is her use to the story.

Sub-Zero is also descended from the Outworld Cryomancers. This was revealed in Deception. It doesn't mean they're from Outworld. Their ancestors were, but Sub-Zero and Frost are from Earth.


Anyaway, I liked Frost and I thought they did a good job with her despite the very concept of her character being "a female Sub-Zero." I liked her look and I liked her role in the story as Sub-Zero's apprentice who was too arrogant for her own good.

However, I do believe the next Mortal Kombat should really streamline the cast and story. Trim away excess baggage and whatnot...and Frost, well-executed she may be, is just "the female Sub-Zero." Unlike someone like Kira who's currently a hyrbid of Sonya & Kano, or Ermac & Kenshi's sharing telekinetic moves, it's not like you can just give Frost a little tune-up with different moves and she's fixed. You'd have to effectively make her....NOT Frost anymore. I suppose it could be done, but I don't imagine it being easy.
Story-wise, there's stuff that could be done with her. Her presence would give Sub-Zero some nice conflict and she could align with one of Subz' enemies. There could be a rivaly with Sareena.....but none of this strikes me as stuff that HAS to happen.

I'm not as violently against Frost's return as I am against character like Chameleon or Kano....but there are too many other characters I favor over her.
I vote go.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up! I'm still not a huge fan of the "let's just throw a bunch of crazy races out in Outworld" because it basically just turns that place into a plot device. I mean we have what, Tarkatans, Zatarans (Reptile's race, not the rice, maybe I misspelled that), Shokans, Centaurs, vampires and now cryomancers. I dunno, it just seems like a bit much. Just my 2 cents.

Oh, and your analysis of Frost was both spot on and much more concise than mine. I think she's well executed for what she is, I just don't see a real need for her anymore and to make her more valid, you'd basically have to change her identity. Good call.




Wow, not a Kano fan, eh? I was expecting you to say someone like Meat or Hsu Hao or something, but Kano? Eh, I guess we'll talk about him in a bit!

Heh.....no, not a Kano fan at all. Guys like Hsu Hao, Meat, Mokap, or Darrius, etc...I don't like them. I don't think they should return. But not to the point where I want to yell and scream. It's characters like Chameleon, Kano, Liu Kang, Johnny Cage, Sonya Blade, and Jax that make me want to start spewing venom all over the place.

All in due time.

Wow, that's a lot of sacred cows on that list lol. I mean, I think I know where you're going with this, even if Chameleon seems like a bit of a strange character to all out despise (I've honestly never thought enough of him/her to hate them that much. But yeah, I look forward to hearing your reasoning man!

i'd rather not see frost in the next game if sub - zero returns. she also does not have the skills to fight because in mkda she was frozen because of the amulet.

Chameleon is a special case for me. Like most people, I had previously just not thought about him...regarding him as a meaningless non-canon joke character.

But then they brought him back in Armageddon...and for no good reason. He had no story. No moves of his own. He didn't even have his own color, so even as a pallete swipe, he was worthless. And it's stupid to have two different characters with the same name....and Khameleon not only had the "K" gimmick name, she also had her own story and her own color.

I felt so bad for Khameleon in Armageddon. I was hoping she would a real revamp with her own unique appearance and her own moves (which would've made sense since she's of the same race as Reptile). But she got fucked over so we could get the two-bit rainbow ninja hybrid. And when they did add her to the Wii Armageddon...they just made her a female Chameleon.

I could keep going, but let's not get off topic.

Just to play devil's advocate, but wasn't Khameleon always a female Chameleon? They were basically both gimmicks put into Trilogy, weren't they? Sure, if you want to be technical, Khameleon has got more connections to the story, but I always felt it was weak.

Guy: Okay, so she can change powers, let's call her "Khameleon!"

Second Guy: Haha! That's cute! Because she has a lizard name, like Reptile, we could make her his sister, or something!

Guy: Genius!

Third Guy: Well, hold on...how about Reptile is not the last of his race, but they both are, and she's come to warn him despite us never having the intention of ever bringing this up again?

Second Guy: We have a winner!

Khameleon was never going to win any kind of award for original design. That being said, I wish they had gone further with Chameleon's story. I think there are places to take it, and make him ultimately a more unique character than Khameleon was. They didn't take that opportunity, and he is essentially an empty shell of a character. But I wouldn't say that he is a swing and a miss like Khameleon was.

Regardless, they were both gimmicks, and don't really warrant being treated like proper characters. They both sadly have got a very good chance of returning, if only for the fact that they are only gimmicks, and can inserted merely for some gameplay fun. Or maybe they will create some new gimmick characters for the new saga?

How does being frozen make her have no skills? She came back in Unchained and brutally killed many of the Lin Kuei members because she believed that she was seeing Sub-Zero everywhere. That doesn't seem like she has no skills towards me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but In Armageddon, that's when she like went on a rampage and was killing warriors? That was actually really cool. I don't hate Frost, I just don't really like her either. I don't know, I'm going to say sit out the next game, but not sit out forever.

dunno if i should throw ideas around for sake of getting battered on my ideas but...the thought of change in Frost's identity would not be an actual bad idea imo. i know its a far out idea and don't ask me how it could be done story wise but what if in some manner she could lose her cryomancy and develope and control a new element? maybe an amulet or an influence by a sorceror...just an idea. i think it would be kinda different to see such a dramatic change but if it does change like that i would like to see it happen infron of my eyes...like have her in both forms playable in the game. like if she took on an earth/rock element or even a plant like element would be neat to see the transformation and have the alternative to choose in versus the before and after version as alt costumes...??

i did not expect anyone to say no to frost but there are many i see that don't like her. interesting

It's an interesting idea. Hypothetically of course, if Ed Boon came to me and said "we want to revamp Frost and bring her back." Here's what I'd do:

I think as far as her story goes, maybe they could just disregard her Armageddon story (as most of those stories should obviously be ignored completely). If you HAD to say something, maybe say that during the events of Armageddon, she was in a frozen coma at the Lin Kuei temple while some Outworld imposter posed as her in order to gain Sub Zero's amulet.

Personally, I'd rather not say that and I'd rather not even reference Armageddon's storyline for her.

Then I'd take it from her Unchained ending. She went crazy, killed a lot of Lin Kuei and Sub Zero put her in an ice coma. I like the idea of her waking up differently than when she was put in the coma. I know her ending never uses the word "coma" but that's basically what it is. I'd make mention of how she woke up "different" or "altered" somehow.

Maybe we're led to believe that the power that was keeping her in the ice (we'll say the amulet) drained her of the her cryomancy powers? You know, I'd use words like "her powers appeared to have been drained by..." etc. When she emerges, she doesn't have ice hair anymore, but long, light blonde hair. Almost, but not quite white hair.

At this point, of course, the biggest problem becomes what to call her. No MK character has ever had a full on name change, and it's tough to do that without giving the impression that the previous name and character associated with it wasn't somehow flawed to the point where such a large correction needed to be made.

On the flip side, this would also make her unique, much more so than simply being "the female Sub Zero."

My feeling is that she should still have one ice attack, maybe something where she holds one hand up and out and ice shards flow from her hand, freezing her opponent briefly, but only at a very close range. The rest of her attacks should then be ninja based.

Give her a grappling hook type of weapon for some of her new moves to flow from. A grappling hook teleport, a grappling hook side step, a grappling hook move that sort of works the opposite of Scorpion's spear, where she catches the opponent and then flies toward them with a kick, throwing stars, of course her traditional slide would return.

Maybe she also gets a counter move where when catching an opponents punch or kick, she disappears into a black mist for a second, then appears behind the opponent, allowing the player to decide what she does next.

Or, in addition to pressing nothing, maybe you counter and hold A, she appears behind and uppercuts, counter and hold B, she appears behind and sweeps, counter and hold X, she disappears falls from the sky with a drop kick, counter hold throw button, she falls from the sky and lands on opponent with her shins on his shoulders. She then use her grappling hook to pull the opponent quickly down to the ground on his face. Etc.

Put her all in black, except for being able to see the upper half of her face and her hair.

Of course, her story would play out where you find out that though she thought she simply woke up from her coma, she actually died and was brought back to Earthrealm from the Netherealm by Noob. She takes her place at his side as a lead member of the Brotherhood of the Shadow. But the story hints that like his brother Sub Zero, Noob might have a bit more than he bargained for with Frost.

Oh, and the name... How about... Wraith? I would have her start out as Frost, but once you get her ending and when standing next to Noob, she blinks and her eyes turn black, I would say something like:

"Frost's lust for power drove her insane and ultimately led to her downfall and death. Reborn in the Nethrealm, she is the Shadow Brotherhood's first female assassin. Though Noob took great pride at "turning" his brother Sub Zero's former pupil to the cause of darkness, the ninja now known as Wraith already envisioned herself leading this vile clan against her sworn enemy: The Lin Kuei."

That's what I'd do anyways. It's tough though, because that's SUCH a dramatic change. I'd like to see one character undergo such a large alteration though, as I think it would be pretty cool to see. You know, make her stand out a little more. I dunno, that's really just something I put together, you know, 10 seconds ago, so it could use refining, but I think something like that could work.

fujin should stay. i liked his design and his powers. we should have more elder gods in the series. maybe he could protect earthrealm after raiden turns "dark".

Well, in his ending for MK4, he was declared as the new God for Earthrealm, and if they do decide to keep Raiden dark, there could be a good rivalry between the characters... As long as the writers don't fuck it up that's all.

I hardly played as him in MK4 & MKA so I don't know much about Fujin & his story.
I would like him to RETURN tho as his rivalry with Raiden would be an awesome story for him.

Agreed.

I think that Fujin has a TON of potential. I would like to see him become the protector of Earthrealm like Rayden was. I believe that this actually happened in Rayden's MK4 ending, as he chose Fujin to replace him when he was promoted from God of Thunder and Lightning to being an Elder God.

To me, Dark Rayden versus Fujin could be an epic battle. However, I agree whole heartedly with Icebaby... They REALLY need to flesh out his character. I mean, Rayden wasn't that well fleshed out either, but we've also had a much longer time to see Rayden grow and change. Fujin's had MK4 and MKA and it's highly doubtful you can really call the latter anything significant.

Still, his story in MK:A at least started the idea of a potential conflict, even if it was never realized. His alliance with Kung Lao could also be interesting.

I'd like to see his look updated a bit though. Both his MK4 and MKA looks seemed very basic and plain to me. I mean, he's a GOD and had what? Green hip hugger pants and tech vest with some symbols in MK4? Yeah, that's not gonna cut it.

His MKA look, while better, was still a bit plain. Despite his outfit looking very ninja-like, I still somehow thought he was Reiko or Rain the first time I saw him. His outfit should be more ornate, maybe give him a long, flowing white fu manchu beard. Something to make him look a bit more regal and wise.

Oh, and his alt outfit looked HORRIBLE. He looked like a botched created character at best.

His moves definitely distinguish him, which I like. Not a lot of characters that use wind attacks after all, but they need to build on that and give him more moves and a more unique style.

VERDICT: STAY without a doubt, but it's really time to build on his character, give him some depth not only in his story, but in his look and his move list as well. He's got a lot of potential, so do something with it!

This is kind of hard to call. I like him, because he is similiar to Raiden, but they haven't done enough with him for me to care. I say they get a new elder god fighter rather than see him a again. I say he goes.

Fujin's not an Elder God. Just a regular god. Just pointing that out.


Anway, I like Fujin. He didn't make much of an impression in MK4, but I liked him in Armageddon. The obvious thing, now that Raiden is going batshit, is for him to take up the slack as Earth's Guardian and act as the new mentor/leader for the heroes...so, he'd have stuff to do in the story.

The only thing he really needs is a personality. Something to really set him apart from Raiden. I remember not too long ago RazorsEdge701 had an idea where...unlike Raiden, who was a very encouraging and benevolent figure, Fujin could be more cantankerous and belittling. He cited House as an example, and I really liked the idea.
Fujin would still lead and guide the heroes, but he'd be a real dick about it. I think if they went with something like that it'd really give him the needed spark in his character so he wouldn't just wind up being "Raiden version 2.0"

I vote Fujin stay.