I loved playing Doom II. Nice reference.

Also, no one said Scorpion couldn't be harmed or even physically killed. He can. The point is, he simply reforms and can again be unleashed or escape on his own. Come on, professor, you know that's the point being argued. To say otherwise is just being disingenuous on your part.

I brought up the points I did about the definition of "death" and how it applies to souls and the already-dead specifically because Xysion's description of Scorpion's "immortality" is vague and not entirely correct.

The entire problem is that the nature of undeath and the rules of fictional afterlives is not entirely just a matter of what's in the canon, it's a matter of philosophy, perspective, and variable word definitions. I didn't BRING that, it was already there, and I'm not the only one who was bringing attention to it.

Also, the nature of Scorpion's powers and whether or not he truly can respawn/teleport infinitely at will isn't well defined and changes from game to game.

Finally, I can't tell what that picture you posted even is. Maybe a screaming face? Maybe a dragon and a mushroom or something?

Um, I've posted only the MK graphics and a picture of Raiden from the original MK film. I'm not sure where you're getting dragons and mushrooms? Screaming face?



Weird. That should have been Raiden (and was). Oh well, nothing a good replacement pic can't rectify.



Oh christ...are you going to cry about this all day? I'm sorry if I wounded your delicate feelings with a few sprites, but good god man, get over it. You're making something out of nothing. And just because you and Chrome didn't find it funny, doesn't mean folks with an actual sense of humor found it similarly offensive.

Just ignore it and move on if it bothers you that much.



Um, looks pretty well over to me, considering Xysion's last post. Just because you think the debate is still going on and you're just in a brief recess while the other party *calms down* doesn't make it true.

This:



I can kinda make out an eye and teeth so I'm gonna go with "yelling face", but I'm not sure what it means in the convo, like what emotion you're expressing here.

As far as your "joke", the problem is that the timing wasn't really appropriate. That's normally the sort of joke a person would post at the end of a big argument where a dude got "BTFO" or whatever term for defeat you might want to use.

As I pointed out, that's not what happened. The argument wasn't over and there was no winner or loser, I just wanted to wait a bit until he cooled down and was ready to discuss calmly.

ReptzMK Razor just love to think of himself as a poor misundertood angel, who try to shine the light of thruth to everyone. When in reality he is just an agressive nerd full of himself with victim complex, most likely developed over the fact that nobody gives a damn about his "awesome knowledge of MK lore" outside of this forum. All his reactions are a good testament to that. Poor thing just wants admiration and respect, but apparently to socially awkward or just not a good person at all to receive them for being just himself.

Like anyone who can't admit his defeat, in a dire situation, he'll try to argue semantics and throw insults, to distract everyone from the fact that he was wrong. And when the dust settles and everyone forget where and why it has started, he'll start to cry his usual song: "I was right, but those people trolled me!! Look how I am suffering!! Sympathize with me and my cause, for I am can PM Administration to ban those infidels, who dare to insult my mighty mind, EGO and headcanon!!". That was his usual MO for the better part of the year and not only with me.


You are pathetic and disgusting, my friend. As always.
And your words once again prove it. And clearly show what you think of this place and people in it. I decided to avoid conflicts with you for a time being, but you was either bored or your EGO took the best of you once again. And here we are.

I give my praise out of genuine admiration. Unlike you, I don't need to remind people about how I can contact Admin or how much time I spend on this forum every second post to gain supporters. And I never used a pity card. Another sign of your arrogance and weakness.


Coming from "mister depression and disdain of the year / all years" it is unconvincing quite a bit.

Didn't really answer anything. Like I said, I chose to exit because of his tone, not his content.

His post that I chose not to respond to mostly consisted of him repeating things I said with an unnecessarily sarcastic "of COURSE that's what happens" added on.

If it helps you to understand, I will post that rebuttal now:

1) His first post stated that Scorpion "works on his own and always has". This is not true. Scorpion worked with Kahn's army and then switched sides and fought with Kuai Liang in MK3, he worked with Shinnok's army in MK4, he joined Team Shujinko and was one of the fighters who let him copy his power to defeat Onaga at the end of Deception, he had an army of henchmen in Armageddon, he was member of a team repeatedly in MKvsDCU (in particular the chapter where he, Shang, and Baraka fight Captain Marvel, not to mention the whole roster fighting together at the end), and he both fought for and teamed up with Quan Chi in MK9.

2) He referred to Scorpion as "semi-invincible". That's straight-out untrue as well. Scorpion has a flesh and bone body which is no more or less immune to harm, damage, and death than any other character. His entire counterargument to this is that Scorpion doesn't stay dead and gets a new body every time he dies. But since EVERY character in the MK lore can technically do that, Scorpion just does it faster than some, his advantage is nearly meaningless.

3) He's still twisting the definition of "immortal". Scorpion is mortal. He can die. He dies repeatedly. His power is not immunity to death, it's REINCARNATION. Coming back from the dead doesn't make you immortal. "Immortal" means "CAN'T die". He repeatedly skirted around this by saying "Scorpion can't die FROM AGE", "Scorpion can't die FROM DISEASE." Those aren't parts of the definition. The word immortal normally means "can't die" period, no qualifiers. He should perhaps be using the word "Ageless" instead if that's what he means to convey, but being immune to age doesn't help you in a fight so I'm not sure why that's relevant in the first place.

4) The origin of Xysion's argument is that Scorpion killing Quan Chi is inevitable, because Scorpion can hunt forever and will eventually succeed. "Roll the die enough times and you will get triple sixes."

Unfortunately, as I already pointed out, Quan Chi is even better at coming back from the dead than Scorpion is, AND he rules the realm where Scorpion is normally trapped. Deadly Alliance represented a brief reversal of fortunes where Scorpion gained more powers and Quan Chi lost some of his powers...but in a universe where the events that happened in previous games aren't going to repeat, what's to stop Quan from simply removing Scorpion, whom he has control over in this universe, from the field of play and denying him the ability to return?

Scorpion doesn't have "immortality" anymore if he can't leave Hell.

And assuming that somehow Quan Chi cannot teleport Scorpion away or block his power to return...The belief that he even CAN kill Quan Chi comes from a game where Scorpion was buffed and Quan was nerfed within the story.
Quan Chi is NORMALLY much more powerful than Scorpion is. Why assume that, under normal circumstances where Quan Chi has not been weakened and Scorpion does not gain any new buffs...if they fight ten times, Scorpion won't lose ten out of ten?
And if Scorpion does kill Quan Chi, so what? Quan Chi will just come right back.
Interestingly, Scorpion has never killed Quan Chi, not even in the old timeline. In fact, when I stop to think about it, I don't think ANY of the characters who died and became Revenants or were resurrected ever killed their targets. (You could make a case for Scorp/Bi-Han in MK1, but Bi-Han isn't his real target, that was a trick.) Why assume that the power to come back from the dead makes winning inevitable when nobody's ever actually won that way?

We're talking about Bi-Han returning as Sub-Zero IF he'll ever become a hero.

When he saves Kuai Liang from the Netherrealm, I wonder if Kuai will permanently take over the Sub-Zero title while Bi-Han becomes grand master of the Lin Kuei under HIS rule?

That would actually be an interesting take. I'd also enjoy seeing a possible battle over the Grandmaster title then since Sektor is still around.

As long as we don't have 2 different Sub-Zeros in the same game, I'm fine. I hated Noob and his spammy clones in MK9 anyway.

What'll happen to Noob Saibot then? Pass that on to some random ninja in the future?

MK won't be the same without the grim reaper.

He never was the grim reaper.

Noob Saibot is not a reknown character to the public. He can go.

What public are we talking about, here?

The MK target audience knows all the Trilogy characters. To people who don't play MK, there's maybe only 4 or 5 characters in the series who are "reknowned". Noob is as mainstream as anyone who isn't Scorpion, Sub-Zero, or Raiden.

The overall public. Which I think does not have people who take that much of a deep interest in it. The average person who knows about Mortal Kombat knows those, but I really doubt they would know about Noob Saibot.

The Mk target audience is 12+ children, no matter how sugarcoated the whole rating thing is, the franchise's appeal aims towards the adolescent and perhaps who has a fascination for violence. Do you think that most people actually form ties with their games the way you and I did to MK?

They might know about him. I doubt that Noob is a front character easily identifiable. This is not a question that preoccupies me.

I agree with Chrome. It's not like whenever a non-MK kid hears the word Mortal Kombat, they'll immediately think Noob Saibot. Of course if they see him already, they probably think "O it's a black ninja palette." They won't even know the entire back story behind Noob and that he WAS the original Sub-Zero from MK1 from that kind of perspective.

The overall public doesn't even play Mortal Kombat. They might know a couple characters from the movie but even that is unlikely. I'm not sure my parents would even recognize the names Scorpion and Sub-Zero, despite their son's fandom.

Casual gamers with only a passing interest are likely to remember anyone from the first movie, but if they don't know the name Noob Saibot, they're probably just as unlikely to know Kung Lao or Baraka.

As far as people who actually play MK games goes, though, it's not like we're talking about someone obscure from MK4 thru Armageddon, the period when people stopped playing the games. He's not Li Mei or Dairou. He's an original Trilogy character. Everyone who actually plays MK knows the UMK3/Trilogy/MK9 roster (except the C/Khameleons).

LOL. Yet, MK9 sold better than previous games in the series.
Most likely all copies were bought by fans only or WB lied.


Somebody stuck in the middle of the 90s.
Not me.

Do you have sales figures for every home version of MK1, 2, 3, Ultimate, and Trilogy?

How about stats on arcade coin-op machine users?

I am thankful they can recogniye their son. I hope.

But jokes aside, no, I cannot agree tot hat. For example you generally assume that those players necesasrily played Trilogy and UMK3, what is not the case east of Germany for example (and that is already a huge number).

And my point, yes, the majority of the people who played MK also do NOT immediately care about or remember Baraka, Kitana etc. as well as Noob Saibot.

I can make an educated guess that the hardcore fans of the series only comprise a very small amount of the total MK players. And just because someone plays MK, let's say regularly still does not mean he cares or pays attention to the characters, so yes, while playing he may know characters, but otherwise, no. Would not recall.

You got a crush on Razor, dude? Are you jelly? You talk more about Razor than MK.
Can't... find... motive...

I think we are talking about the overall public who has played MK at some point. And I highly doubt most of them are familiar with him. And even if they are, I don't think his death would cause an uproar. Neither to them, nor to the MK fans.

OK, I meant games after MK4. Thoigh I wouldn't count arcade machines towards "sold units".

Still, MK9 was more succesful because of general public / general gaming audience, not some basement dwelling nerds, scarce tournament players and small bunch of MK fans from back of the 90-s.

General gaming audience is just regular people, not some secluded separate group. MK9 was a genuinly GOOD game, which was enough to be succesfull with them.


I wasn't the one to insult him first, this time around.
So, read previous pages before making inane assumptions.

At the risk of coming across as xenophobic...there are really only two audiences that make a difference to game developers. The Japanese generally only care about Japan and western devs generally only care about sales and perception in America.

If people in Germany play MK, that would be considered a bonus.
At any rate, this whole "How well known is Noob Saibot" thing was started by Kanji saying that "MK won't be the same without him" and your response that he's not reknowned to the general public so "he can go".
Technically, EVERYONE "can" go and it wouldn't make much difference. The only time a character being missing actively affected sales for the worse or inspired them to change the roster/re-release the game was Scorpion in MK3/UMK3.
But that was 20 years ago and there's a strong contingent of the fanbase now who is sick of Scorpion's repetitive nature and would not mind his absence. We've also been conditioned to accept the deaths of main characters via Liu Kang in MKDA.
The series doesn't "need" anyone anymore.
I don't think that's what Kanji meant though. I think he just meant it wouldn't feel the same TO HIM if Noob was gone forever.

Exactly my point!

Noob Saibot appeared in MK2, as Bi-Han, the original Sub-Zero.

But now that IF Bi-Han did return as Sub-Zero again, if he'll become a good guy for once and Kuai Liang can takeover his brother's codename later on... there's a chance for a new Noob Saibot to takeover the role.

At least Noob won't be Bi-Han anymore and neither would it be Kuai. It can be someone else.

Eh, personally I don't think it's right to treat "Noob Saibot" as a title or mantle that can be passed on to other people at will.

That dehumanizes the character, makes it an object instead of a person, a costume other characters can take on or off, instead of a real identity with a personality.

Well, Noob Saibot probably will not exist if Bi Han is Sub-Zero.

Noob Saibot is not a character that warrents a spot on the roster every game. He was not in Deadly Alliance for example. The only characters that I know of that warrent a spot in every game are Scorpion and Sub-Zero because of popularity

Interviewer:..Let's start there actually, characters.What the heck. At the end of obviously, at the end of the last Mortal Kombat, that kind of changes up things...
Steve Beran: It does.
Interviewer: Scorpion and Sub-Zero are back...
Steve Beran: They're back. They have to be.. People can't lose their minds....