I don't need a picture book to repeat the acid wash jeans analogy.

Sonya should be so lucky, to have any design concept as deep as those.
"Deep" meaning whatever you want it to, under these circumstances.

I think the strawman is partially a proper meat man, but what he's made of irrelvant. The point is that there are people who aren't indifferent or mindless MK team supporters who do like stuff, just as there are people without a "ultra conservative" agenda who don't.


Some things are more objective than others. I think opinion would be less mixed with your Scorpion example, although I won't discont it without seeing it!

You seem to be saying that Sonya should be aware of the "fourth wall" and the existence of the "battle damage" feature, and should assume that some significant portion of her top should become removed during the fight, but she should somehow also be not aware of the "magic forces" that will prevent lady nipples as well as the reproductive organs of both genders from becoming exposed?

FWIW, if you want to reason about pointless backstory stuff, if she's opted to wear this jacket for the fight, and presumably has some special forces "Q" (a la james bond) to make cool tech stuff, like Jax's arms, presumably the jacket offers enough support to contain her funbags, and is designed to take damage without malfunctioning! Look at most of the "costume damage" in the game - it's holes, cuts and stuff. Not clothes actually falling off!


Should everyone wear something flappy to show off battle damage and cloth physics? Should every arena have some water so as not to waste water physics effects? Should everyone wear some shiny item to show off the cube mapping shader? I don't think so.

Having special effects, physics and stuff is to allow the artists more freedom. Not restrict them.


I don't know that much about comics, but I know that not just the nineties were like that. Superheroes have always had spandex, crazy muscles and stuff. From what I gather, Liefeld's work was commercially successful and has fans to this day.

That kicked ass. I don't care if it was "out of character for a ninja".

Yea, but....

Sonya has gone from:



to :



Now personally, I admit that there are some semblances of consistency in the current, I don't even disagree with the whole "it's a video game" thing because I see why people are comfortable saying that. Y'know, come to think of it, I even get why some of us are comfortable with "mo' sex" from Sonya.

However, the point I'm making is that her particular evolution has definitely gravitated towards a more factual idea of a "like-real" woman soldier. Over the years, she continually moves towards an interpretation of a soldier that is more kin to what actual women of the armed forces dress and behave like. Even if that means it's still very fictional according to what actual real-life tells us it should look like. I'm cool with all that.

But, when I see something like what looks like the diliberate absence of her shirt, or a pretty silly choice for foot-wear (doesn't even matter from which game at that point), i'm inclined to say something about it. And it's not even really about her being sexualized for me, even though that is a sticking point, and that's even being considerate of the fact that sex appeal is always a part of her designs regardless. It's more about these elements not making sense on the design of the character.

I'm looking at it from a progressive stand-point. That says:

"Hm.. if she's been consistently moving towards a more real-like version that we can visibly keep track of (which is kinda subjective, I guess..) of what a woman soldier appears like.... then how do you explain ___ ,___, and ___ about the costume before us now."

Then from an artistic standpoint. That says:

"Hm... since this is a fictional character, what criteria are they using to take whatever liberty? Ah... probably ___ ,___, and ___. But damn, wait a second, where's the cleavage and the heels coming from?"

Then from a practical stand-point. That says:

"Hm... Okay, since there's a progression happening, and there's a fantasy element at play here, maybe ___ ,___, and ___ can be explained by the things this character is capable of. Still, cleavage and heels don't fit. "

THEN... I even give the "cool factor" a chance to breathe before I start complaining and all that. Which says:

Fine.... Some things about the look are not supposed to make absolute sense, some of this shit is just supposed to be there to make the character appeal more to the fans of that character or abroad."

1+1=2 right?

Well, IMO she looks cooler with the shirt, it'd be more practical for her to have it, artistically it'd make perfect sense, and it would fit for a progressive Sonya.

Thing about Sub-Zero is, he's NEVER had a problem thematically. Never had a problem looking cool, never had a problem with things working for him from a practical stand-point, some could challenge artistically but not really, and when he progressed, again, he stuck to his thing.

"Ice Ninja//Assassin"

Sonya is not so privileged.

Nice HQ picture got more?

Maybe I'm not seeing it, but how is Sonya no longer "Tough Blond Military Girl"? She's just as much that as Sub-Zero is still a "Ice Ninja/Assassin".

And maybe I'm just totally blind, but I don't see THAT much deviation from her ORIGINAL outfit either.


She's missing the headband and her spandex top has become a low-cut military vest. She replaced the wrist-bands with gloves. But she's still military with the dogtags and vest, still blond, and her top even covers more of her midriff than her original version did, though the pants are lower. Add some patriotic flair and I could easily see this as something her outfit might evolve into.

This thread makes me dizzy >_<

Same debate over and over and over and over >>

Neither side is 100% right or wrong so can we just leave it at that before it gets to 40 pages?

I agree, some people are going to hate it, others won't. Can this topic end now and move onto Nightwolf?

TWITTER:MK_MortalKombat wrote:
Sonya Blade is showing up in magazines all over the world, I wonder who's next.

Yay!

That was recently posted on twitter. I wonder what other magazines they are talking about. We know of the one in Russia and the one in London. Maybe more are coming soon?



Very well said Garlador.

You've pretty nailed the most significant matters of these entire discussion and once again you back up all your points and views with excellent proves and a subjective perspective.

I wish I had the strength to write my thoughts and opinions today, but, I have to go sleep. I'll do so tomorrow, so, expect a tsunami from me.

PS: Sonya really does looks better than ever. That new HQ render of her that Pred posted makes me see in her in a better perspective for some reason (I think Garlador's MK1/MK9 Sonya picture also helped a lot). I still want the shirt under the vest, but, I'm definitely falling in love with her design more and more. She looks absolutely brilliant.

Yea, THAT example is what I'm talking about. The design now violates progress, some artistic sense, and or any sensible practicality that she may have gained throughout all these years. And to some extent, it even violates the cool factor from my view-point. Because look, even though I understand the the fanbase for Sonya expands further than the U.S., my understanding of things allows me to know that EVERY woman on the roster does not need to be sexuallized, and therefor should not be. Especially someone as obvious as Sonya... She's probably the least likely to get such an aesthetic treatment because thematically, she probably shouldn't.

Maybe that's what they're after with this sort of ploy though...idk. I'd nod without hesitation at the idea that there's still enough of a demand for "gratuitously naked chicks in video games" that they'd take the risk. But, again, even though I get that there may be a demand (or greater than that, an acceptance...) out there for this sort of art direction for women in video games, for Sonya in particular, the contrary understanding I retain is that there is a greater demand to pander more to the concept and description of the particular character. Not only that, characters that are as adored as much as or more than Sonya are appreciated even more when they exemplify explicit qualities and characteristics. Hold on...

Your MK1//MK9 comparison confirms that what they may be trying to do is just that. Right? I appreciate that much.... However, one good, very specific reason I think this way, is because of stuff like "reality t.v.", for one example. A form of expression in media that has been spoon fed to consumers for at least some 5-10yrs or more. Now, again, I'll agree sex is still a huge selling point in even that medium BUT, where all this disdain is coming from for this particular sort of look on Sonya, is that social media as successfully sold the idea that it is unnecessary for women, especially with her specific sort of credentials, to be depicted in such a way. In fact, it is disagreeable when ya do that to a character that is supposedly a respectable member of a higher military force like she is.

So, as much as I get it when it comes to the ol' "it's just a video game chick" standpoint, what it seems like, is that there's not enough understanding for the evolution of what is socially appreciated (not accepted, it's more specific than that. I mean appreciated) going on in the NRS team.

Look at what we've been given to work with; "Women are equal, women are just as capable as men...ect ect ect." And I said in another thread that I believe that to be true. They are equal and all that.... So then, why the hell is it so hard for some of us to understand why other folks want that same sort of understanding of women to be reflected in video games? More specific? When it comes to an aggressive female with credentials that says she deserves to be respected, why would alot of people demand that she be depicted with said respect? Even more specific? When it comes to LT or Gen. Sonya Blade in Mortal Kombat, why would it be tough to understand that people want to see her represented with the same sort of respect that we've been taught is supposed to be given to a woman with her specific credentials?

Maybe it's just because I'm taking it too seriously, right?....
Nah man, that's wrong... The real reason is because the visual representation of such a character as Sonya is just as important to the characters overall persona as her story element or gameplay element.

It's a strong enough point I think, to say that "hey, alot of people would really appreciate it if THIS particular character represented what a strong woman fighter looks like, that is more closely related to the actual interpretation of the idea you're portraying. And hey, if you get closer to that, she probably won't have her boobs hanging all out.

That can-not be hard to understand. Let alone, we're talking about a shirt and some boots. I mean come on...

----

The other part of this argument I think, is that even with simplistic edits to this current design like the t-shirt and boots, the design would still be bleh.
On this matter though, I think it may just be that the art directors of the game didn't demand for much deviation from what already existed during the time-line that this game is supposed to take place. I do know that they do that, actually.

Y'know, they'll hand the artists a rough sketch or something and tell them that they want a particular look because of whatever reasons, and direct the inspiration of the overall design to MK1-MK3//T.



I personally am not looking to be 100% right or wrong. I realize you may not have been speaking directly to me, I'm simply entering my point of view on the matter. My view on alot of these long lasting debates is that there's usually some sort of constant theme amidst all the noise.

I think if the NRS team looks into this matter, they'll find that the under-shirt and maybe boots is where the compromise lies. There doesn't seem to be much position to those two changes we've been talking about for pages and pages. Even though I think we've been going on about the specific elements and whatnot this whole time, the question I believe, would be whether or not the changes would be at a detriment to the characters design.

Based on what 30pages of criticism says, I think the changes would be accepted without dispute. I feel strong enough about it... the ideas themselves were not really rejected, and that's probably because it'd be the right choice to change these very specific things about this particular characters design.



I don't hate it, and having read most of the posts in these pages, I don't even think it's a hatred that is fueling the either side of the debate. I just think the design suffers in lieu of some of the liberties they chose to take. Since that is so, I speak up about it to hopefully influence the final version in the creations process. That is, if we're lucky enough to be considered to such a degree.

Again, I've read almost every post in every page in this thread and, virtually no one disagrees that editing her a shirt in there is a bad choice. Also, once we got a good look at her, most of the people in this thread agree that maybe boots would've made a little more sense.

All I'm saying at that point is.... hey NRS... Do it! Go ahead and make the edits. It makes sense, and these edits seem perfectly agreeable across the board on at least this particular site.



I think similarly. I think she looks a hell of a lot better that any recent game, I mean, we're really just talking about her clothes. Although like I said above somewhere, even if they made the edits to definitely add the shirt, and probably turn the hills to boots, this design reflects a digression in artistic representation of the character base on what one side of this argument would appreciate, and what the other side of the argument accepts.

I'm on the side that looks at this overall design as merely being a simple regurgitation of something she looked like 20yrs ago. Almost to the letter, in fact (thanks Garlador).

To be honest, I would have loved to see them make the changes they have to her physical qualities, but take a little bit more artistic liberty with her clothes. Of course, don't forget that it's Sonya and she needs to retain some of her iconic qualities (green/white/black color scheme, belly should probably show, sleeveless, ponytail ect). But, like we might all know by now, I'd like to see her go a little further than the MKSM interpretation to incorporate more of that progression towards a real-like soldier placed in the Mortal Kombat universe.

I don't need or even want anything like these:

One

Two

Instead, fictionalize something like these according to where it should be obvious (means, give her this MK9 Sonya's build, take a hat or helmet off, add a ponytail or change the color, change a face for this MK9 one... ect):

Three

Four

Five

Six

Seven

Eight

Nine

Ten

Doesn't have to be exactly, and as a matter of fact, i would expect them to deviate from stuff like in these links a bit so that it fit Sonya's concept, grasped her iconic qualities a bit more, and over all just looked cool. With these images all I'm really trying to do is strike a tone for the base concept I'd like to see.

Processing all these pictures you'd probably end up with her MKSM costume taken a little bit further into the actual interpretation of what real military stuff looks like. It's not far off actually.

eh...

No wonder people no longer visit MKO.

700+ posts on a characters shirt. unbelievable

"People" had to post the 700+ replies, of course. Same as it ever was; not much better than massive threads on why there's only one fatality per character in MK:DA or what the final secret is.

True...

But MKO lost all of the competitive players for it's unwillingness to make some minor changes for that community. and now all that's left is this.

Well, at least at the end of the day everyone can put this behind them and move on. There hasn't been much hostility, and in a thread of this size with an issue so important to a lot of people we've had no major disturbances. Perhaps some annoyance, but that's to be expected in most any topic. If you're asking do I regret that MKO doesn't have much in the way of high-level gameplay discussion, then sure I do. Would it be nice if we had a crowd that could generate 700 replies to a gameplay topic in about a week, sure I do. I still think character design is very important, so this isn't as minor of an issue as some are making it out to be. Like I said, you can't have a meal with nothing but the main course alone.

But if people so "valuable" can't respect each other or this website in general, then there's just no place for it here. If high-level players were really so valuable to the community they wouldn't attempt to tear it apart. That sort of thing is even more mindless and worthless than what sort of clothing the characters are wearing, and I think it's hard to argue against that. If I was ever to give anyone special treatment, it would have to be someone that acted like they were actually deserving of such treatment. Not directed at any particular person since there are so many, but you are someone I've always enjoyed hearing from since you are one of the few that are actually personable enough to have a normal conversation with.

Dear lord, Predator....TL;DR to the max!

But hey, props for the passion.



I have to say to everyone who is really going apeshit over the character designs.....now you all know how I felt when Castlevania Judgment came out. This is TAME by comparison, really.

Why did Sonya wear her underwear on the outside of her pants in MK 1?

Bladder control issues.

I remember you from over at The Castlevania Dungeon. Man, haven't been there in a while. And, yeah, like you I couldn't believe how completely unrecognizable (and just plain bad) everybody was in Judgment.

I don't think we've got it that bad. Sonya still looks like Sonya. In fact, her face (something that's gone through hell over the last few games) finally looks good. Her body also looks great. I just wish she had a more interesting costume. This is as forgettable as Kira.

Brother!

Yeah, I have to say I probably was one of the forerunners of the Anti-Judgment movement for the sheer fact they butchered the designs. To this day I think the execs. at Konami were smoking crack when they handed full control of the character concepts to Obata. At least these new MK designs don't make all the characters look like bondage fetish enthusiasts.

Man, this thread is long.Come on everyone, let's go for the thousand mark.



Hey, if we don't like it we should say something about it. But it's not the shirt or vest or lack of undershirt, it's still those damn high heel boots that I hate. But not my favorite character (Although high on my imaginary list) so I'll worry more about someone else.

Despite the outcry I doubt they'll change this costume. But we might end up getting a decent alt because of it. If the alt turns out well then maybe we'll get really lucky and they'll make that the primary and this one the alt.

I'm not sure if that would be better or worse... At least it'd be an idea.
I don't know if it quite fits BDSM fashion standards, but I rather liked the practical implications of Jax' MKvsDC look. It wasn't exactly how I'd do it, but it lent credence to the "GI Joe" notion of a super-cop task force. Some sort of customized version of that shared with Sonya might've been nice, then, and now. Something that gives a sense of uniform to the Special Forces, but not necessarily at the cost of individuality. Lord knows MK isn't in a position to count on grace in that department.

Adapting Jax' exo-bodysuit uniform for Sonya also strikes me as a much more natural and informed evolution of the workout spandex of the digitized era. A potentially body-fitting reminder that it's not about a clandestine ultra-conservative agenda, but how embarassingly easy it is to top Sexy T2 Sarah Conner cosplay.

Eighties hangover spandex in dowdy green and black set the bar low, but at least it had the times on it's side. I think tight pants and a tiny jacket will be easy to best if they're planning alt costumes.

EDIT: ie; Mere minutes in Photoshop later:


OMG! What do you know? It's 1995 all over again, but we actually look like we know what we're doing and give half a crap. Fabulous.

Sexy and creative? Who'da thunk it?

That looks awesome. That'd make an great alt (Actually this one will make a better alt and that would make a better primary.)