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Mortal Kombat Series General

Discuss the universe of Mortal Kombat.
Page of 2

ThePredator151Posted: 07/06/2007 12:19 AMStatus ::


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Official Raiden Thread (Fan-Faq) Current Subject: -- Your Perception Of Raiden --

So, this really isn't the traditional "Official Character Thread". I'm writing a story about Raiden, and as alot of writers encounter, the story potential of a character like him has lead me to grow it into something of a book. Rough-draft wise anyway, no major editing yet because I'm still writing it.

I've pmed a couple people here on the site about it and haven't recieved a response so I figured I'd just put it out there. Either they're not interested, or their on holiday vacation or something.

Anyway, while I'm writting this thing, one of a few questions keeps popping into my head. The first one is this:

1. What do you do since the beginning of time Raiden?

I will give little teasers to this future Fanart//Story of mine if this sparks some good feed-back. For instance, in my story so far:

Teaser #1: Raiden is responsible for the orbit of the Moon.

Teaser #2: Raiden is responsible for the death of the Dinosaurs.

So yea, how would you answer question number one?


There'll probably be a few similar questions to come, and you'll be able to tell because I'll change the thread title to accomodate the new question.



New addition!! Enjoy the art. I just decided to make this out of the blue. Took time away from other stuff I'm doing but I like how it turned out for a GIF Animation....

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ThePredator151Posted: 07/06/2007 12:21 AMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born)

Oh, forgot to mention that any info about Raiden is welcomed in here, so don't feel intimidated if you don't wish to answer the focal question...Thank you

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quevePosted: 07/07/2007 10:29 AMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 1st Question: What In A Million Years Would You Do?

I honestly cant think how to answer question number one or two, but this really sounds interesting.

The moon bit sounds a lot more deep then the dinosaurs bit (maybe thats because I love dinosaurs and would feel sad if Rayden killed them all , lol.)

ThePredator151Posted: 07/07/2007 05:31 PMStatus ::


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Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

O.k. I see, then I'll move to another question then. Oh Queve, those "teasers" are concepts that I have used in the story I'm writing for Raiden currently. It will be a Fan Art when it's done, maybe even a "series" if it's long enough when it's all done..


Though, I think that when you consider "the beginning of time" in a Mk characters past, it's almost more logical to go with a scientific(factual) approach, but within the fantasy of the games' story. So, all we really know is that the Elder Gods made the universes, and that it happened sometime after they subdued the One Being and then *poof* all this stuff was made. So in my story, I chose to explain all this to the reader, from inside the mortal kombat universe .

Since nothing really "exciting" happens in the very, very beginning of Earths' creation, I used this section of my story to delve into who exactly Raiden is. A God...

Which brings me to my next Question:


2nd Question: How do you define a God? What makes a God--a God?


Now, here's where all kinds of interesting things come into play.

) What exactly is Raiden(or any of the MK gods for that matter) made of.

The most tangible elements that I figured a god could be made up of, is spirtual and or cosmic energies. This makes sense to me because neither of these can really be "destroyed" in the classical sense. And it helps tie Raiden to the heavens, as well as to "man" indefinitely.

In my story, I used them both to make-up Raiden, directly following the Elder Gods construction of Raidens realm.

)) Raidens' powers.

I'll tell you that I spent some time here building up the basis for why Raiden is.....like he is. Here's a few of the talents I believe a god needs to have in order to be considered "a God".

a)Self Preservation//Immortality
b)Teleportation//Plainer displacement
c)Telepathy
d)Holographic Image Casting and maybe some other lesser sorcery
e) the arts of Suggestion and Necromancy
f)Divinity - (water into wine, walk on water./ Strength in faith. = if people believe in and or worship him//sacrifice to him, he is stronger. If they don’t he is not hurt, it just doesn’t help him. This would also include super strength, agility, and imperviousness to his realms mortal hazards.)
g)the Virtues of Gods and Mortals
h)Power balance and preservation amongst mortals
i) Planetary balance and the Cosmos(have to be able to protect earth, outside of earth to some degree.
j)Rites
k)Sacrifices(last and ulitmate option for protection of a realm.)
l)Superior Combat. They are the originators, and pure sources of martial arts. Throughout the universe there are more than a plethora of martial arts styles. This can easily be contributed to countless mortal interpretations(or mis-interpretations) over the ages

)))Raidens learning curve.

The way I see it, gods are not conventionally "born" or birthed. So, they actually can come into existence with quite a bit of knowledge and pretty advanced experience. I say this because they are made with a purpose in mind. And then consider their source, the most directly related to the Elder Gods. It'd make Raiden or even say Argus concetrates....just slightly less.

Real time experience would be the only other aspect I can think of to consider in a gods learning curve. Well that, and the fact that this is Mortal Kombat, so I guess some semblance of training probably should be involved.

Too, it would make sense to me to put this aspect of Raidens life at the beginning of his story.....or at the very beginning of the world.


Your thoughts?

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LadyRaidenPosted: 07/08/2007 05:45 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

What makes a god a god in the MK universe?

1. Immortal. By immortal I mean will not grow old and unable to get sick or killed. Destroyed yes...killed no. There is a difference. As we know gods are able to give up their immortality somehow in the MK universe, but at the time they are mortal they are no longer truely a god.

There is a deference between Immortal and Eternal. Eternal means something always was and will never end. Immortal means there was a time the god in question did not exist and someday there will be a time they will no longer be. Personally I believe gods are normally just immortal not eternal. Whether they are born or created depends on the god in question.

2. A representive of some force of nature and/or concept. For example our all time fav being Raiden God of Thunder. There is also Ares/Mars God of War, Set God of Darkness (or was it Evil), etc. It is this force or concept the god (or goddess *grin*) gets his power but it also hints towards his weakness. Ares the God of War love the sight of blood shed but when struck by the arrow dipped in something that enabled it to injure immortals turned out to be nothing but a wimp crying in pain until Zeus sent him to his 'room'. (My memory may not be fully accurate on this myth can't find my Greek/Roman mythology book to refresh)

3. A given responsiblity or duty of 'god-like' proportions. Keeping the 'balance' whether its the balance of good and evil, the natural balance, etc. Or protection of great importance on a grand scale. Seeing to the souls of the dead reach their proper final place, etc. Now this is strictly MK universe.

From what little we've seen so far it seems that gods are required to see to a 'balance between the furies.' Whatever this truely is we don't know. Most seem to think it a balance between good and evil, but to be honest I doubt it but is most likely a balance of the natural (or supernatural) order.

Unfortunely, when Shinnok destroyed/killed many of the Earthrealm gods there was too few to keep this balance going. The Elder Gods made it even worse when they made Raiden an Elder Gods thus making the shortage of gods even worse (leaving on Fujin behind, poor guy). Now whether these gods 'reformed' after being killed or if they were truely destroyed makes a big long term difference but short term its the same. We either have too few gods to handle all that needs to be done or a army of inexperienced gods (from what I understand when gods are reformed after being killed they lose all their memories). Acturally I think the army of inexperienced gods would be worse. In either case the Elder Gods are doing not what is best for any balance but what is worse. Why who knows.

4. Powers/needs that could be consider 'universal' for all gods:

a. Observe unseen. Whether this is being invisible or just in spirit form no idea.

b. Read souls. Any god worth his salt can look into a mortal's soul and get a good idea their balance of good/evil as well a good idea of the mortal's true personality. How well or how deep a god can do this varies.

c. Call upon all the powers of their office while on duty. Please note I said while on duty. If a god *cough*Raiden*cough* should do something outside of his normal duties he may be cut off from his power source.

d. Proof of said office while on duty. Cronos the God of Time has his Hourglass, Ares his Sword, Athena her Shield, etc. What is Raiden's proof of office? His Drum! In the mythos of Raijin/Rayden he is often pictured carrying a drum in which he makes the thunder roll. He is never seen with a drum in the game because he is never on duty as a Thunder God when we see him (unless those new hats of his are cymbals from his drum set). He is always off duty so he is never at full strength. For Fujin its a bag/sack that carries the seven winds.

Might add more but ran out of time. Laters!

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ThePredator151Posted: 07/08/2007 11:27 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

LadyRaiden Wrote:
What makes a god a god in the MK universe?

1. Immortal. By immortal I mean will not grow old and unable to get sick or killed. Destroyed yes...killed no. There is a difference. As we know gods are able to give up their immortality somehow in the MK universe, but at the time they are mortal they are no longer truely a god.


You know, the way I like to think about Raiden concerning this specifically, is that when he conforms to a mortal status, he more decrees the absence of qualities like "Divinity", certain "Rites", or maybe even "Plainer Displacement" that I mentioned. To me it's more an "access" issue, than it is an apparent power absence.

What this means as far as divinity is concerned, is that he shouldn't be able to draw strength from outside of his own anatomy or will//body and spirit.
For instance, him throwing lighting can be seen as a "divine" quality, but then so is a Chi blast from Liu Kang, or Ice Blast from Sub-Zero. So Raiden, in a mortal form could keep his talents and signature moves, teleport, torpedo, ect.

There's also the matter of his experience here too. I mean the guy's been around forever, I wouldn't doubt that he even knows how to manipulate more than just Thunder and Lightning.

Another kind if divinity that I considered when I was writing is "imperviousness" to otherwise mortal hazards(a sort of "Superman" complex). So that when he conforms to his mortal form, he should loose access to this type of power. Which is also associated with a "Rite" by definition. Like a "Rite of passage", Raiden as a god, should have certain Rites to help solidify//confirm his immortality. So then it makes sense that he should be impervious to the elements of his domain(Earth)....and loose this ability when he conforms.

What follows is the sense it makes if we wanna consider "where" Raiden is. Outworld? Then we can start to gauge that he's probably sesceptable to a few more things, on top of the fact that no mortals beileve in, worship/sacrifice to him, or even know about him for that matter. So his presence there as a "God" is lessened. Outworld or NetherRealm? Even greater a decline in his presence as a god.

LadyRaiden Wrote:
Personally I believe gods are normally just immortal not eternal. Whether they are born or created depends on the god in question.


That's about right on. The One Being or The Elder Gods could be "eternal" then, right?..

LadyRaiden Wrote:
2. A representive of some force of nature and/or concept. For example our all time fav being Raiden God of Thunder. There is also Ares/Mars God of War, Set God of Darkness (or was it Evil), etc. It is this force or concept the god (or goddess *grin*) gets his power but it also hints towards his weakness.


I agree here, but not entirely for a Mortal Kombat setting. To explain, I think that one of our Mk Gods can have a representation talent//element or what have you. But I don't think we "have to" associate that ability with their weakness.

Since Shinnoks Mk4 ending, I've always wondered how you could actually destroy a god like Raiden. Where i stopped in thought was, that you had to erraticate the source energy.

I'm thinking it's this way because we know the Elder Gods created all the realms and the gods there-in. I think that if they did create their gods with a fault or "fatal flaw" of any sort....only they would know about it.

Too, since Shinnok was an Elder God at one point, he should know about the flaw. But since he is "fallen" from the pantheon, he no longer retains any of his divine qualities, nor his Rites as an Elder God. And while I'm at it, as far as I can tell, they didn't like, clear his memory of secret knowledge. So, we could go as far as to say he knows how to defeat the Gods//Elder Gods, he just doesn't have the power, access, or means to do anything about it.
As of MkA anyway...

LadyRaiden Wrote:
3. A given responsiblity or duty of 'god-like' proportions. Keeping the 'balance' whether its the balance of good and evil, the natural balance, etc. Or protection of great importance on a grand scale. Seeing to the souls of the dead reach their proper final place, etc. Now this is strictly MK universe.


I like that concept alot actually because, there's vast potential. How we interpret it, and convey it become the most interesting quality of it.

In my story, I gave full responsibility over Earth to Raiden, as well as a limited domain outside his planet = Earth + Realm. "The Realm of Earth."

Teaser: Raijin choose to delegates the responsibility of passed on souls..."Chapter 4: "Strength from Weakness"

LadyRaiden Wrote:
From what little we've seen so far it seems that gods are required to see to a 'balance between the furies.' Whatever this truely is we don't know. Most seem to think it a balance between good and evil, but to be honest I doubt it but is most likely a balance of the natural (or supernatural) order.


You can probably tell from the teaser above that I like the concept of a network right here. Each God carries his//her own weight, and the entire Realm prospers as a result.

LadyRaiden Wrote:
Unfortunely, when Shinnok destroyed/killed many of the Earthrealm gods there was too few to keep this balance going. The Elder Gods made it even worse when they made Raiden an Elder Gods thus making the shortage of gods even worse (leaving on Fujin behind, poor guy). Now whether these gods 'reformed' after being killed or if they were truely destroyed makes a big long term difference but short term its the same. We either have too few gods to handle all that needs to be done or a army of inexperienced gods (from what I understand when gods are reformed after being killed they lose all their memories). Acturally I think the army of inexperienced gods would be worse. In either case the Elder Gods are doing not what is best for any balance but what is worse. Why who knows.


Sub-Zero killed the elementals if that's what you were referring to. To fix this exact kind of problem, in my story, Teaser: I attached them to Raiden.

They're more like....stand alone extensions of Raidens domain//responsibility over EarhRealm. It's to the extent that if they or Raiden were to "die" independently, they would be just that, independent of each other. So, each of them would have the same resurrection traits as Raiden alone....but they're connected.

LadyRaiden Wrote:
4. Powers/needs that could be consider 'universal' for all gods:



a. Observe unseen. Whether this is being invisible or just in spirit form no idea.



b. Read souls. Any god worth his salt can look into a mortal's soul and get a good idea their balance of good/evil as well a good idea of the mortal's true personality. How well or how deep a god can do this varies.



c. Call upon all the powers of their office while on duty. Please note I said while on duty. If a god *cough*Raiden*cough* should do something outside of his normal duties he may be cut off from his power source.



d. Proof of said office while on duty. Cronos the God of Time has his Hourglass, Ares his Sword, Athena her Shield, etc. What is Raiden's proof of office? His Drum! In the mythos of Raijin/Rayden he is often pictured carrying a drum in which he makes the thunder roll. He is never seen with a drum in the game because he is never on duty as a Thunder God when we see him (unless those new hats of his are cymbals from his drum set). He is always off duty so he is never at full strength. For Fujin its a bag/sack that carries the seven winds.


a. You mean like being able to see the soul of Scorpion though the ninja fit? Or identifying the difference between Noob Saibot and the younger brother Sub-Zero by spirit alone? .....Or do you mean seeing things like Karma, Chi and Tai? Either way it's a lovely concept.

b. You know I was thinking about this actually. The conclusion I came to, was that every God should have some "sub-talents" or abilities. But for say... the God of the NetherRealm, his/her talents in necrophilia would be stronger-est, and maybe he'd have softer talents in the elements. See what I mean? He'd need necrophilia to be more prominent than say...the Water God on Earth.

c. I'd like you to explain this one a little more. "On duty"..?? I also have some ideas pertaining to "power sources"....or lack there-of too.

d. O.k.there's a couple things that intrigue me in here. First thing, is the "symbol" signifying a God on duty. After I was really familiar with the character Raijin some time ago, I came to the conclusion that they may have substituted his Drum for the Staff. Something that he could always reasonably have with him. Now, I do find the symbols on his clothing interesting too...but I'm just not sure they're as significant as the staff in Mortal Kombat. hm...If you don't mind, maybe I'll spend some time on this somewhere in my story... Kind of use this thread as "Fan Fact" for Raiden...

The other thing that interests me is his stregnth being associated with whether he's on duty or not. This kinda leads me to beleive that some of his power is stronger in different seasons(rain-y, or stormy seasons)....and that it also depends on where in the world he's "doing his job.

If I'm understanding that correctly, I dis-agree with this. I like to stay with the ideology that his Realm is is domain. No matter on or off duty. For me, everything seems to fall in "order//balance" with that...heh.

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TheSilverSurferPosted: 07/09/2007 06:10 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

*As god status, a person or thing must have immortality.
*God's usually protect and over-see everything that happens on a planet or near place. Knowledge is key.
*No hesitation envolved in making decisions.
*God's have huge amounts of limitless power.
*When God's face enemies that rival their own power & strength, a God fears nothing.

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LadyRaidenPosted: 07/09/2007 09:48 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

"c. I'd like you to explain this one a little more. "On duty"..?? I also have some ideas pertaining to "power sources"....or lack there-of too. "


By 'on duty' I'm mean they are preforming the duties of their office and not taking a 'vacation', have not been removed from said office or are outside of their domain. For example: Raiden is off duty as a Thunder God when he was fighting in the tournament as a mortal. He still has some basic powers but in reality not much stronger that a mortal warrior, many of the powers we do see can be considered his mortal form powers since other mortal warriors have similiar abilites. Raiden's lighting bolt compared to Subb's ice blasts or Liu Kangs fire balls. Raiden's teleport compared to Kung Lao's teleport. etc. The reason why he sticks to lighting moves is that is what is most familiar to him.

When he is actually on duty he IS thunder and lighting. He may not even have a human form at this time. He is literally part of nature incarnate with little or no regard to the individual mortal.

A possilbe example of what I mean is from an old fan fiction of my own:

In the hidden town of Sha-Kana, the people headed back to their homes after a long day. They all but ignored the signs of the distant storm heading their way. Lighting flooded the distant sky and the low rumble of thunder was barely heard. As if guided, the storm quickly approached the town. As if with a vengeance, lighting struck the altar of Sha Kha shattering the stone. The roar of thunder shook the ground, awaking the dozing worshippers of Sha Kha. Another bolt of lighting hit the stone skull, breaking it in half. The scream of the release of energy nearly drowned out the ground shaking thunder. Lighting struck again and again, shatter what remained of the unholy alter there was. The ground shook as if fearing the wrath from the skies. Fires began to burn in the grasses and linens surrounding the former altar. People ran from their homes in a panic…

(Later)

Back at the tavern, Rayden sat back down and pulled the blonde back onto his lap. “See that didn’t take so long did it?” The woman giggled and kissed the thunder god on the check. “All I had to do was a little thunder god business I’ve been putting off while defending Earthrealm.” He took a sip of the wine and then kissed the woman full on the mouth. The woman returned it with a fever. “Why don’t we just go now, hmmmmm” he mumbled into her mouth.


ThePredator151Posted: 07/13/2007 07:22 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

LadyRaiden Wrote:
When he is actually on duty he IS thunder and lighting. He may not even have a human form at this time. He is literally part of nature incarnate with little or no regard to the individual mortal.


Ahh.. I see, I don't know how I missed that.


Welp, that's enough time, how about another aspect of Raiden that hasn't been explored eh?

Question #3: When was Raiden Created?

The common answer would be to say that he was created "at the beginning of time".

I think there could be more to this than the obivous. Teaser: In the story I'm writing, the Elder Gods had a process. They created each realm individually, and over a time....and with them, its God.

I think this could be significant because it could tell us alot about why Raiden is the way he is. Was he the oldest? And with that, is Earth the oldest realm? Are the Gods then something like Siblings? How many actual realms do we have then? And if Raiden isn't the oldest, when in order was he created? What about each realms "other" Gods? How did they come about? And why is Raiden or say Argus, the leading God of their Realm and not Fujin, or someone else?

See what I mean? These are the kinds of questions I have already tried to answer in my story, but I wanna hear what other people think about it.

What's your take?

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LadyRaidenPosted: 07/13/2007 11:49 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

That depends was Raiden created or born? If created by whom (Elder Gods)? If born who are/were his parents (Daddy Shinnok)?

Personally, I always perferred the idea that he was born and that is the concept I always stuck to in all my Raiden/Rayden based fan works. I know this is not canon but unfortunately there is little we can argue for or against, with the exception of the crappy, non-canon MK: A movie. Big problem with this is that Raiden/Rayden is much younger than we might expect, but would help explain why he is so comfortable working with humans. He 'grew-up' around them. Now if you want to bring in actual Shinto belief, that I am extremely weak on and would love for some one to give more info on the Shinto history of Raijin and/or Raiden-sama. Living in S. Texas I don't have much access to Shinto shrines and the internet is proving unusually silent on this particular subject. (Any good websites in English PM me please) However, I could be wrong but I do believe there was a god that was the father of all the other Shinto kami's/spirits/gods this would hint that Raiden was born and if someone who really knew his/her Shinto might be able to narrow this down some.

If he was created, he could have very well have been created along with the Earth along with all the original elemental gods. The more concept related gods (War, Love, etc) were create when there were sentient life that required such dieties. Which brings up a big question: How much of real world history or theory do you want to bring into this? If you want to bring in as much as possible, we bring up the problem of that new "How the moon was created' theory in which the original Earth was struck by a large chunk of iron causing a good portion of the earth to scatter out into orbit and eventually becoming the moon. If the gods were created along with the Earth could they have survived such an event? Immortal or not that had to hurt! If you want to stick to just MK Mythos then we don't have those concerns but might make thinks more difficult since it might make it difficult to find a 'right time' for a god or gods to be created. IF gods were created they were most likely done when there started to be a need for them on a particular realm. Mainly when there was some life that may start effecting the 'supernatural' or natural balance of that realm. Mainly sentient life. Saurian, humans, etc all have a bad habit of altering the world around them to better suit themselves. Thus gods are required to ensure things don't get out of balance. Now which came first gods or sentient life...its a chicken/egg question. In either case Raiden and other original dieties would have mostly started showing up about the same time the first human (or saurian if you believe the whole Zaterrian theory) picked up his/her first tool or used fire for the first time.

Now reading over this....I noticed I wrote a whole lot of nothing *sigh* So no answers here but it did bring up some interesting questions.

mkflegendPosted: 07/14/2007 09:41 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born)

Hmmmm, the moon one sounds interesting.

Perhaps you can say something like Raiden was an old, old MK warrior himself back in the day wayy before the first MK and some where along that line he did something that helped Earthrealm some how and he was eventually made into a God and protector of earthrealm.

Not sure...something like that maybe, you can play around with the idea of your thread and about Raiden. He's one of those characters that you can do a lot of things concerning the beginning of his existence.

ThePredator151Posted: 07/18/2007 07:16 AMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

LadyRaiden Wrote:
That depends was Raiden created or born? If created by whom (Elder Gods)? If born who are/were his parents (Daddy Shinnok)?


In my story, the Gods are created. Being born would infer that they were manifested from a combined effort of some fort, and only that. It's a little more conclusive than I would have liked......Being created gives no limitation to that subject in my mind, which then plays in to the fact that we don't know exactly how man y Elder Gods there really are or what their actual powers or capabilities are.

So, Raiden doesn't have a definitive "father"//"daddy"//mother", or what have you... But he does have, and has-had a culmination that is a guidance, or parental factor that is absolutely there.

For instance: He does have to "answer to someone" for incorrect-ness. There has always been a consequence to pay, whether good or bad...in my story.

LadyRaiden Wrote:
Personally, I always perferred the idea that he was born and that is the concept I always stuck to in all my Raiden/Rayden based fan works. I know this is not canon but unfortunately there is little we can argue for or against, with the exception of the crappy, non-canon MK: A movie. Big problem with this is that Raiden/Rayden is much younger than we might expect, but would help explain why he is so comfortable working with humans. He 'grew-up' around them.


I actually do respect that concept though. That he may have been "born" into existence because it's the first path I took when I wrote the first 2 chapters of my story. I just found it harder to explain when I was writing so I changed it.

Questions I couldn't answer that came up were:

1. Who was his mother//Father? Can they have//make up legit names and small back stories of their own?
2. Then did they consummate? How do Elder Gods have a "baby"? And that's considering Japanese Mythos...
3. If Gods can be "born" and "grow up" into what we see Raiden now, can he get old enough to die off? And if so, how do you explain "death of natural causes" for a God? How do you explain the other Gods then? All of them had celestial "parents" of some sort?
4. Is all of that relavant in the end?....probably not.

It just seemed more simple to give the fact of the matter...and then create from those facts as a base.
------
Now see, this is a very important factor for me to consider while I'm writing this thing. That he "grew up" with someone. It's really different from being "born" in that, Gods live for-ev-er. My cousin and I muled over the concept and came up with some of these things:

Teaser: (sorta)...The events that lead to Raidens sacrifice were as human a reaction as ever(Irritance, abuse, tired of being used or looked over as a realm ect..).

Consisting of some sort of relationship with his Elder Gods long ago to current date, somewhere along the line Raiden has to "grow" into what he is now....that required practice...Which also indicates Trial and Error to some extent. Which would have to, whether he was born or manifested, consist of some type of parental guidance along the way. See?

If we look at what happened over the course of all our cannon game information, we see a pattern.....

A pattern where every significant individual aligned with "evil" Violated the rules of Earth and or Mortal Kombat....and or the rules of "Balance" if you will. And then you have to consider Shujinko in there as a type of a "big red button" that had been pushed finally for Raiden.

With the final key to that puzzle being that they always get away with it. Concerning Earth anyway....Which would mean alot more to Raiden than the Elders since Earth is his domain//responsibility.

They always come here fuck around, and leave without a sufficient (to Raidens standards) consequence to the damage they caused while they were here.

Shang Tsung//Goro Tried it the "fair" way, but there was no doubt corruption in the systematics of Mk1s' tournament. Reptile, Scorpion, Sub-Zero. And that's just trying to point to some "evil" characters....

Shao Kahn actually took Earth through his violation but lost it by the hands of Liu Kang. Adequate punishment? I wouldn't think so if I were Raiden. That's the equivilant of simply pushing a burglar outside your house, but leaving the door open. (Can't stand there and watch them forever, what happens when you gotta go to the bathroom? lol j/k)

MkS-Z Mythologies we learn of another irritation to Raiden. Shinnok became corrupted and Raiden was no less obligated by design to stop him...Quan Chi was also a major factor in these events.....I explore these aspects in my story too.

Mk4 We learn more of a "War of the Gods" millennium ago, which would calculate as another irritation in my mind if I were the "manager" of an entire realm. Gotta go protect where you came from right?(heavens) But how the hell do you battle someone who potentially helped create you? (Shinnok)..Difficult decision to make when you also have to consider that same individual is trying to kill the Other Elder Gods off...and so on and so on....

Then there's MkDa were they Kill the Second Champion, not to mention the first. "The Great Kung Lao", wouldn't that piss you off? They keep violating the rules...AND they keep finding a way to eliminate your champion from the Contest....Which by the way, you faithfully continue to enter within the ramifications and rules the Elders have set down before you...

MkD Here comes Jinko who's only trying to help....and actually talks to Raiden a few times, but never confirms between two parties (Raiden and the Elders) that this whole deal is real.

Sht, that's alot like having your check set up to be directly deposited into your bank, and you worked for the money. It's pay day, and you have the check stub, but the bank never recognizes the business you work for, or that you were supposed to have money(s) sent there. "Where the hell is my money?!?" *says Raiden* Lol!!

Time to smack Jinko(your "job", who gave you the check stub) and the Bank(the "Elder Gods") for confusing the transaction. haha!

MkA We learn Raidens abitions, which are greatly in violation themselves...(explore later)

LadyRaiden Wrote:
If he was created, he could have very well have been created along with the Earth along with all the original elemental gods. The more concept related gods (War, Love, etc) were create when there were sentient life that required such dieties. Which brings up a big question: How much of real world history or theory do you want to bring into this? If you want to bring in as much as possible, we bring up the problem of that new "How the moon was created' theory in which the original Earth was struck by a large chunk of iron causing a good portion of the earth to scatter out into orbit and eventually becoming the moon. If the gods were created along with the Earth could they have survived such an event? Immortal or not that had to hurt! If you want to stick to just MK Mythos then we don't have those concerns but might make thinks more difficult since it might make it difficult to find a 'right time' for a god or gods to be created. IF gods were created they were most likely done when there started to be a need for them on a particular realm. Mainly when there was some life that may start effecting the 'supernatural' or natural balance of that realm. Mainly sentient life. Saurian, humans, etc all have a bad habit of altering the world around them to better suit themselves. Thus gods are required to ensure things don't get out of balance. Now which came first gods or sentient life...its a chicken/egg question. In either case Raiden and other original dieties would have mostly started showing up about the same time the first human (or saurian if you believe the whole Zaterrian theory) picked up his/her first tool or used fire for the first time.


There you go..lol That's right about the state of mind I was in when I started writing my story...Asking questions like:

1. "When will they(Gods) be relavant?". I always just took into account that people believe Raiden has been around since...."the beginning of time". Never a mention of any of the other gods for some reason there....What if I ellaborate on that lack of acknowledgment? idk.

2. When did civilization come along?"....I'm a Science and Reason guy so I like to think it took Raiden some phases of mortal evolution to see his first civilization.

3. "Where was Raiden when all of this was going on?"....Being Created and going though Trial and errors...In history, what do we know happened to the Earth? What could cause those things that would be relative to a God? Probably Raiden in an Mk setting...

4. "When was Raiden Born//Created?" > > The beginning of "time".


Very good.

___________________________

I don't know much about Shinto and the actual facts behind Japanese//Chinese deities and such so I couldn't go there with you and hold any weight....well, maybe on a conceptual level at least. But I like fact too much in these particular instances.

Anyway, what do you make of all this?


mkflegend Wrote:
Hmmmm, the moon one sounds interesting.



Perhaps you can say something like Raiden was an old, old MK warrior himself back in the day wayy before the first MK and some where along that line he did something that helped Earthrealm some how and he was eventually made into a God and protector of earthrealm.


I'm glad you find it intriguing MkFl, Unfortunately, I've tossed around that idea in the early stages and there are too many un anserable questions there. If I go with that ideaology...

For 1: Then how has he been around since "the beginning of time"? Just a conceptual exsistance mad up by man? Then is Raiden a liar?!? heh..j/k

2. Humans came before time itself? This would have to be so in order for him to be a warrior, and then transformed into a God at some point if I still tried to follow what the common belief is about Raidens age....and if that's the case, who's really the God of Earth?

Fujin? // Why is he now the apprentice?

Haha! I beat you to it...(see, you like fu--ji-n..nm..haha)

But you see what I mean though..right?

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LadyRaidenPosted: 07/19/2007 11:03 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

ThePredator151 Wrote:
LadyRaiden Wrote:
That depends was Raiden created or born? If created by whom (Elder Gods)? If born who are/were his parents (Daddy Shinnok)?




In my story, the Gods are created. Being born would infer that they were manifested from a combined effort of some fort, and only that. It's a little more conclusive than I would have liked......Being created gives no limitation to that subject in my mind, which then plays in to the fact that we don't know exactly how man y Elder Gods there really are or what their actual powers or capabilities are.



So, Raiden doesn't have a definitive "father"//"daddy"//mother", or what have you... But he does have, and has-had a culmination that is a guidance, or parental factor that is absolutely there.



For instance: He does have to "answer to someone" for incorrect-ness. There has always been a consequence to pay, whether good or bad...in my story.





Ok in my 'fanverse' almost all gods with the exception of the original Elder Gods were born in the normal sense. For Raiden's parents I 'borrowed' from the only possilbe source of this the movie and his father is Shinnok. As for his mother, I dug out my good old Encyclopedia of Gods (Damn I love that book...wish I could find it now) and blindly chose Benten-san the Japanese goddess of luck for his mother. His parents were separated/divorced when he was young and his mother remarried to the Elder God of Air, Enlil (another name from the Encyclopedia of Gods) eventually having Fujin.

Note: By original Elder Gods, I mean the very first Elder Gods these I have no history on as of yet. In my fanverse there are seven and will always be seven Elder Gods. Only four of the original still exist and only three remain on the council. The other three were destroyed by Shinnok who himself was one of the original Elder Gods but is no longer on the council. The replacements were just gods elevated to the status of Elder God (ie Raiden in MK4). In the immortal hierarchy, gods have ranks of sorts. You have you minor local dieties, your major world wide dieties, Sworn Protector then your Elder Gods. Some gods may cover more than one realm but his is rare and in any case the Sworn Protector of the realm ranks them. Only ones higher up in rank is the Elder Gods themselves.

The reason why I like the idea that gods are born is that there are stories of them fathering half-gods (ie Hercules) Why would a species that was 'created' be able to reproduce in that manner or even want to have 'fun' with mortals? Not to mention, since I'm more familiar with Greek/Roman/Norse myth I borrow from that more than Eastern myth. In those myths gods and goddesses have as much 'fun' if not more than mortals. Not to mention they have their share of disfunctional families which makes writing Raiden's history so much interesting. More guy...his parents divorced...abusive father...annoying half-brothers...(you get the idea)


LadyRaiden Wrote:
Personally, I always perferred the idea that he was born and that is the concept I always stuck to in all my Raiden/Rayden based fan works. I know this is not canon but unfortunately there is little we can argue for or against, with the exception of the crappy, non-canon MK: A movie. Big problem with this is that Raiden/Rayden is much younger than we might expect, but would help explain why he is so comfortable working with humans. He 'grew-up' around them.




I actually do respect that concept though. That he may have been "born" into existence because it's the first path I took when I wrote the first 2 chapters of my story. I just found it harder to explain when I was writing so I changed it.



Questions I couldn't answer that came up were:



1. Who was his mother//Father? Can they have//make up legit names and small back stories of their own?

2. Then did they consummate? How do Elder Gods have a "baby"? And that's considering Japanese Mythos...

3. If Gods can be "born" and "grow up" into what we see Raiden now, can he get old enough to die off? And if so, how do you explain "death of natural causes" for a God? How do you explain the other Gods then? All of them had celestial "parents" of some sort?

4. Is all of that relavant in the end?....probably not.



It just seemed more simple to give the fact of the matter...and then create from those facts as a base.

------

Now see, this is a very important factor for me to consider while I'm writing this thing. That he "grew up" with someone. It's really different from being "born" in that, Gods live for-ev-er. My cousin and I muled over the concept and came up with some of these things:

>




I believe I already answered 1 and 2 already previously. For 3 its simple, gods age very...very slowly. It takes centuries for them to grow up. From infant to young child they age not much differently than your average mortal race. From young child it slows down to a crawl so that it takes a few centuries for them to reach their late 'teenage' years. Then it really starts slowing down until it slows to a halt when they are full adults. (Almost, the same thing could be considered for Edenians) As for how gods that are born get their powers...they are given them once a god is given a title or position. Before this, they have to 'borrow' from their parent(s), guardian or mentor. (Yes gods have to take lessons before getting a position, they are not born all-knowing)



4. Depends on the story you are writing whether it is relavent or not. In mind it is since I have and will no doubt bring up immortal family problems in my stories. If you're not then no relavence at all.




Teaser: (sorta)...The events that lead to Raidens sacrifice were as human a reaction as ever(Irritance, abuse, tired of being used or looked over as a realm ect..).



Consisting of some sort of relationship with his Elder Gods long ago to current date, somewhere along the line Raiden has to "grow" into what he is now....that required practice...Which also indicates Trial and Error to some extent. Which would have to, whether he was born or manifested, consist of some type of parental guidance along the way. See?



If we look at what happened over the course of all our cannon game information, we see a pattern.....



A pattern where every significant individual aligned with "evil" Violated the rules of Earth and or Mortal Kombat....and or the rules of "Balance" if you will. And then you have to consider Shujinko in there as a type of a "big red button" that had been pushed finally for Raiden.



With the final key to that puzzle being that they always get away with it. Concerning Earth anyway....Which would mean alot more to Raiden than the Elders since Earth is his domain//responsibility.



They always come here fuck around, and leave without a sufficient (to Raidens standards) consequence to the damage they caused while they were here.



Shang Tsung//Goro Tried it the "fair" way, but there was no doubt corruption in the systematics of Mk1s' tournament. Reptile, Scorpion, Sub-Zero. And that's just trying to point to some "evil" characters....



Shao Kahn actually took Earth through his violation but lost it by the hands of Liu Kang. Adequate punishment? I wouldn't think so if I were Raiden. That's the equivilant of simply pushing a burglar outside your house, but leaving the door open. (Can't stand there and watch them forever, what happens when you gotta go to the bathroom? lol j/k)



MkS-Z Mythologies we learn of another irritation to Raiden. Shinnok became corrupted and Raiden was no less obligated by design to stop him...Quan Chi was also a major factor in these events.....I explore these aspects in my story too.



Mk4 We learn more of a "War of the Gods" millennium ago, which would calculate as another irritation in my mind if I were the "manager" of an entire realm. Gotta go protect where you came from right?(heavens) But how the hell do you battle someone who potentially helped create you? (Shinnok)..Difficult decision to make when you also have to consider that same individual is trying to kill the Other Elder Gods off...and so on and so on....



Then there's MkDa were they Kill the Second Champion, not to mention the first. "The Great Kung Lao", wouldn't that piss you off? They keep violating the rules...AND they keep finding a way to eliminate your champion from the Contest....Which by the way, you faithfully continue to enter within the ramifications and rules the Elders have set down before you...



MkD Here comes Jinko who's only trying to help....and actually talks to Raiden a few times, but never confirms between two parties (Raiden and the Elders) that this whole deal is real.



Sht, that's alot like having your check set up to be directly deposited into your bank, and you worked for the money. It's pay day, and you have the check stub, but the bank never recognizes the business you work for, or that you were supposed to have money(s) sent there. "Where the hell is my money?!?" *says Raiden* Lol!!



Time to smack Jinko(your "job", who gave you the check stub) and the Bank(the "Elder Gods") for confusing the transaction. haha!



MkA We learn Raidens abitions, which are greatly in violation themselves...(explore later)






As for someone teaching Raiden what is right and wrong, that once again hints towards being raised. Even with the most perfect parents, a person can grow up completely confused and screwed up. With parents like Shinnok...its amazing Raiden grew up as well as he did. It might also account for the thundergods temper. He is living with an abusive father until he gets rescued by his step-father and mother. An abusive childhood could account for his temper but with being placed in a more loving family would account for him turning out mostly ok. Plus the destruction/death of loving family by his abusive father (remember Shinnok has been know to destroy/kill gods before) could make Raiden very protective of what he cares for (namely Earthrealm) since he has already lost so much. As much as I hate the 'Dark' Raiden, with this possible history in mind I'm surprised Raiden did break before this. (Actually in my fanverse he did centuries ago but recovers with a little help.) Jinko's stupidity was the last straw.

Now Raiden never did get along with Shinnok (frankly he hates his guts). Whether or not Raiden was born or created, he still hates Shinnok and the feeling is mutual. It takes more than blood to be family. I know I have relatives I would be happy to see dead if I could get away with it.

From what we've seen in the MK storyline, the Elder Gods have a very hands off approach to the realms and gods. They lay down rules, expects everyone to follow them with little or no supervison. What little supervison there is (Sworn Protectors) are almost powerless to interfer by those same rules. Either make sure the rules are followed by breaking them yourself or follow the rules and let others break them. A lose-lose situation no matter how you look at it. I believe any Sworn Protector would have to bend the rules more than once to at least keep the spirit of the rules going.

There is more...but tired so may continue tomorrow night.

Even more:

Sorry took so long been baby sitting newbies at work and got the Harry Potter book....Anyways, back on the Elder God/Raiden relationship. I want to say the Elder Gods were at one time in the distant past much more active in enforcing their rules and edicts. Unfortunately, when one of their own (Shinnok) abused his powers they started backing off. Whether its a fear of a repeat of Shinnok's actions or not I'm not sure. But just the fact that Shinnok a then Elder God himself, did turn shows that not even the Elder Gods are perfect. (Scary thought ain't it)

Raiden saw this up close and personal, after all he was the one to finally defeat Shinnok in that war thousands of years ago. We can safely assume he had some help...a mere god (who may or may not be Sworn Protector at the time) can not hope to face down an Elder God alone. He must have had help from at least one of the other Elder Gods (or someone/thing even stronger) either in sealing Shinnok's powers or some secret/hint on how to defeat the fallen Elder God.

Now as to how Raiden gets 'paid' for his work that is a differicult one...how did knights/samuri get paid for in the feudal era(s)? Unless my history is completely off (which it is most likely is) they got paid in land granted to them by their superior and the duty to protect those lands but also the right to use those lands resources. At least in the European side of things a knight could be beholden to a Baron a Baron beholden to a Earl all the way up to King. If you take the Elder Gods being the 'kings of the gods' you could have Sworn Protectors being Dukes and all the other gods/goddesses being of lower rank depending on who much of a realm they are in control of, worshipped in and/or what they are in charge of. Each god holds a duty to protect their 'lands and domains' in return are given the right to use the resources of their 'lands and domains.' With us poor mortals being the serfs/peasants or in some cases the stock.

Dragon Points:
ThePredator151Posted: 07/30/2007 07:56 AMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) Question 4: What Pisses A God Off?

Sry for the hiatus there. Let's spend a bit more time in the hypothetical shall we? Next Question>>

Question 4: What Pisses A God Off?

I like to think it takes alot to piss Raiden off. He has to be able to make "just" and "fair" decisions at all times and in split seconds every moment for the rest of eternity. So when I consider some of the things we've been talking about, I think that along with violators being a factor, it also has to have alot to do with time. Like a slow burn, or ich that just gets worse and worse until you gotta do something about it.

Some of the things we know since Raidens' MkA bio are:

1. According to the intro of Mk4, Raiden and the other gods battled Shinnok "thousands of years ago". When I first learned this, I was like : WtH?!?

What could make Gods fight each other in the first place? (feel free to give your opinion here).

I figured most likely it was betrayal, but I also feel that may be too stale a path to take considering how massive a fight like that could possibly be. Instead I chose to make a relationship happen. A complicated one at that. Now, I still couldn't bring myself to choose a "family tie" like LadyRaiden(even though she makes persuasive points). But it is a "situation" that could be conceived as a father-like to son-like concoction.

2. We learned that he defeated(not "killed") a sect of Necromancers it said "centuries ago".

To me this is an instant nod towards Raidens closeness to mortals and on an individual note: Quan Chi. The build up behind that idea is the hatred Quan Chi has for Raiden and him still having problems with Raiden(even if they were indirect mostly). I think that the reasons behind alot of the corruptions in Mk are due to a soured relationship between Quan Chi and Raiden at some point those "centuries ago", and concerning that Sect.

teaser: A path that I'm exploring is that those centuries ago, the Art of the Dead(Necromancy) might have gotten out of hand. This could be in a way that one of these necromancers bridged for the first time, Necromancy and a more potent Sorcery than Raiden would have liked to have had happened.

a.Maybe this "Sect" opened their first inter-dementional portal or something? b.Maybe one or more of them learned how to ressurect not only the dead body of a loved one, but bring that soul back from the Nether? Thus creating one of "Mans" 1st violations on Earth....

Now, what I was thinking, and what I even gather from previous post in this thread, is that could be a violation to one of Raidens jurisdictional duties as Earths protector. Like, if he were to send the soul of "just another dead mortal" to the Nether, and the Necromancers figured out how to bring them back.....they could be getting themselves into a lot of trouble with Raiden. And besides that, imagine a portal to the Nether Realm readily available to Earth for it's un-godly passer-bys

Motive behind a resurrection ceremony are endless...aheh, maybe a lightning bolt killed somebody? lol I don't know yet I haven't refined the idea just yet.

What do you think of the possibiltity here?

3. "Hundreds of years ago", the Great Kung Lao was killed. Along with us identifying that Shang Tsung has been around, and a nuisance to some kind of extent, even back then....by that time. This is along with with long living characters like Goro, Shao Kahn, Sindel, Kitana and Mileena, and a slew of others.

Point here is that even with all these other characters there to loose, Raiden looses his champion to treatry. What was their direct consequence?

I don't see one during pre-Mk1.

4. Now, hundreds of years later, and more frequently, we start seeing Assaults on Earth. Shang and Goro in Mk1....then Shao Kahn and the gang in Mk2.....then during Mk3-Trilogy, Shao Kahn actually does get his dirty hands on Earth.

Just fortunate for Earth, Liu Kang and the descendant Kung Lao were around to stop the merge.

Point here, is that "Earth Got Taken". Again, what was their direct consequence?

I don't really see one here either besides the fact that they ultimately lost and "live to fight another day".

5. MkSub-Zero - Mk4//G happens and we get the info on what happend to the Elemental Gods, Sub-Zeros' past, and Shinnok.

The irritation here I believe, is that "I just delt with this Shao Kahn thing, and now Quan Chi is back with my "father-like" figure causing problems for everybody now.

I know that would "erk" me a bit. Especially if I am Raiden and not even 100yrs pass with all these "happenings".

The elementals died, Shao Kahn took over Earth, and now Shinnok and Quan Chi are added to the equation of irritations...

6. Here comes MkDa, and the death of yet another one of Earth//Raidens champions. Catch that?

I say Earth//Raidens champion because I believe Raiden might have been more sensitive to Liu Kang than the Elder Kung Lao. I just image the saying:
"Hurt me once, shame on you, hurt me twice, shame on me".

I think that's alot of the reason people closely associate Raiden with Liu Kang besides Liu being "the chosen one" and all that. He knew he would have to make sure this new champion could handle himself. He knew he had to take care of "This One".

So when Liu gets killed anyway, it irritates him further in my mind. Really gets under his skin with Lius' death because he really cared about him and (I think) was beginning to rely on him as much to make him a God some day...?...But they killed him!! Crap!!

lol

7. In MkD Shujinko happens and the events he unknowingly helps set in motion are the final straw. Besides looking at it like "it's all Shujinkos falt", I look at it like: "Onaga just added himself to the "shit" that's already been going on.....and again, not even 100yrs has past and all these things are going on.


So I'll stop there and welcome any comments or opinions....I didn't go into to much depth because well.....I'm tired. heh.

What's yur take?

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King_RaidenPosted: 07/30/2007 11:21 AMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) Question 4: What Pisses A God Off?

If Raiden really went through all that stuff, no wonder why he has become more extreme!

ThePredator151Posted: 07/30/2007 04:19 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) Question 4: What Pisses A God Off?

King_Raiden Wrote:
If Raiden really went through all that stuff, no wonder why he has become more extreme!


If? The MkWarehouse is a good place to start. Read Raidens bios, brush up on those characters considered to be direct Raiden adversaries//enemies. Note too, that Raiden, has been the voice of Mk for most of the games(opening movies ect), so I'd say read or listen to those as well. Good reference from time to time.

I think we're fortunate that Raiden is a character that doesn't have many retcons... - at all. And I think that's pretty important that they didn't do that to Raiden considering they would have to reconstruct whole game stories if they did screw with "what Raiden said".

The term "More Extreme" you used is absolutely correct. I think when people take a look into what happened around Raiden, and understand a position of passive authority, it can be realized the emotional stress caused by "the bad guys", always getting away with shit.

ImO, Raiden has been getting shots thrown at him for a long time now, and it's just within this last few hundred years that the potential of the threats have become more real.....and far too consistent for anybodies taste.

Somebody has to do something, and I beleive that Raiden was right in the stand-point he took(i.e. most aggressive...) about Earth.

I just think the method was flawed because of the taint, the ressurection of Liu Kangs' corpse, killing Shujinko ect. Those things were "wrong" by a Gods standards imO.

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ThePredator151Posted: 08/03/2007 04:10 AMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) Question 4: What Pisses A God Off?

"Raijin" // "Raiden" in Japanese:



Some Random Fan Arts of Raiden that I either just ran into on the net somewhere(most are DA), or that I will have associated with my story for Raiden....

Yea, I guess this is sort of a teaser:

JAX007 // ScorpionBlaze: (Pencils)

1a. Dark Raiden Sketch

1b. Dark Raiden (Colored by: ravencolors)

2a. Dark Raiden Alt

2b. Dark Raiden Alt (colored by JAX007 // Scorpionblaze himself)

3. Raiden Concept

4. Raiden Concept 2

UdonCrew

5. Raiden Card

Malkavian7515

6. Raiden MKk1 Concept

BiggCaZ

7. Raiden Tatto Design

bobbett (Pencils)

8a. Raiden Concept

psychoheat (only colored it)

8b. Raiden Concept

theswitcher (Also has submitted art on MkO btw)

9. Raiden Concept w/Hat

10. Raiden Concept w/o Hat

What's yur take? There's more....but I just picked the ones I liked.

Oh, PS: Make sure you click on everything. The persons names, the art clickie, everything...

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LadyRaidenPosted: 08/04/2007 02:30 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) Question 4: What Pisses A God Off?

Ok...What pisses a god off...I decided to wait a few days before responding to this one since to be honest I have no idea what would make a god lose it. I would assume, that like people a lot of things could piss a god off and different gods would get angry over different things. Since this is a Raiden thread I'll stick to just the Thunder God.

First I thought stupidity in Earth's warriors would be towards the top, but then toss that idea out the window. Yes Jinko was a complete idiot but most of the other warriors are not the brightest people in the universe either.

Then considered endangering his realm. No, it might make him a little angry and protective but not enough to go postal like he did with old Jinko. If it did, he would have lost it almost every fifty years at every MK tournament and every time someone tried to get around the rules.

Then it dawned on me, the one thing that could seriously piss Raiden off was betrayal. The only big fight we heard of in Raiden's past was against Shinnok. What would drive a 'normal' god to face down a Elder God alone (or we can only assume alone) and end up destroying and entire civilization in the process. Shinnok betrayed the Council of the Elder Gods and the gods that follow them. Now if Raiden and Shinnok had a close relationship either father-son, mentor or even just close friends this would have hurt and Raiden may have seriously gotten pissed off. Especially if Shinnok killed or harmed someone close to Raiden.

Now, we don't know if Raiden knew the true or full story behind Jinko's stupity. (Yes, I know the whole Raiden going insane is the current 'canon' but I'm hoping that MK:A is nothing more than the 3-D version of MK: Trilogy) Afterall, in the Konquest game Raiden actually believed that Jinko could be the Elder God's chosen warrior. Maybe, when he found out Jinko was directly responsible for Onaga's return, he may have seen this as betrayal on Jinko's part. This on top of Liu Kang's death, having to face down the Deadly Alliance, then having to join forces with the Deadly Alliance against Onaga only to have to same as destroy himself in an failed attempt to defect the Dragon King...wouldn't anyone be seriously pissed? It was seriously a bad week for the thunder god.

ScorpionUnleasedPosted: 09/14/2007 11:02 AMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

ThePredator151 wrote:

2nd Question: How do you define a God? What makes a God--a God?

1st of all his power just wait to see a "Miracle" happens (eg Rock Smash by a sudden thunder). Also his size most Gods are huge (no coment). Another key is his wisdom. All Gods are very wise maybe the wisest beings in the world. Finally, God dont show up as humans [Raiden is wearing that chinese hat (he may was shown as human in the movie but if you remember he WAS human that time to save Liu Kang and his companions)]

ThePredator151Posted: 09/15/2007 08:57 AMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

ScorpionUnleased Wrote:
ThePredator151 wrote:



2nd Question: How do you define a God? What makes a God--a God?



1st of all his power just wait to see a "Miracle" happens (eg Rock Smash by a sudden thunder). Also his size most Gods are huge (no coment). Another key is his wisdom. All Gods are very wise maybe the wisest beings in the world. Finally, God dont show up as humans [Raiden is wearing that chinese hat (he may was shown as human in the movie but if you remember he WAS human that time to save Liu Kang and his companions)]


Um..

Raiden is not of "Western" or "North American" basis essentially, he's a Japanese, or "Eastern" deity. And as far as my knowledge carries me about those types of "Gods", they would and can "appear" on rare occasions for purposes of effecting those individuals who violated their rule.

They also could be responsible for "miracles" as you say, but I don't know if your example was a literal one or fictional.

And about the size of a god, I'll have to lean towards LadyRaiden here. By saying that, even in Greek Mythology, gods could take on any size, and different forms.

There really isn't a limitation in any mythos for a gods size as far as I remember. I remember Zeus could be huge, tiny, or anywhere inbetween. Therefor, I'm inclined to wonder the same for Japanese mythological gods.
hm...


__

I need to update this thread again. What's something interesting though?/
hmm..

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mkflegendPosted: 09/15/2007 04:44 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

ThePredator151 Wrote:
LadyRaiden Wrote:
That depends was Raiden created or born? If created by whom (Elder Gods)? If born who are/were his parents (Daddy Shinnok)?




In my story, the Gods are created. Being born would infer that they were manifested from a combined effort of some fort, and only that. It's a little more conclusive than I would have liked......Being created gives no limitation to that subject in my mind, which then plays in to the fact that we don't know exactly how man y Elder Gods there really are or what their actual powers or capabilities are.



So, Raiden doesn't have a definitive "father"//"daddy"//mother", or what have you... But he does have, and has-had a culmination that is a guidance, or parental factor that is absolutely there.



For instance: He does have to "answer to someone" for incorrect-ness. There has always been a consequence to pay, whether good or bad...in my story.



LadyRaiden Wrote:
Personally, I always perferred the idea that he was born and that is the concept I always stuck to in all my Raiden/Rayden based fan works. I know this is not canon but unfortunately there is little we can argue for or against, with the exception of the crappy, non-canon MK: A movie. Big problem with this is that Raiden/Rayden is much younger than we might expect, but would help explain why he is so comfortable working with humans. He 'grew-up' around them.




I actually do respect that concept though. That he may have been "born" into existence because it's the first path I took when I wrote the first 2 chapters of my story. I just found it harder to explain when I was writing so I changed it.



Questions I couldn't answer that came up were:



1. Who was his mother//Father? Can they have//make up legit names and small back stories of their own?

2. Then did they consummate? How do Elder Gods have a "baby"? And that's considering Japanese Mythos...

3. If Gods can be "born" and "grow up" into what we see Raiden now, can he get old enough to die off? And if so, how do you explain "death of natural causes" for a God? How do you explain the other Gods then? All of them had celestial "parents" of some sort?

4. Is all of that relavant in the end?....probably not.



It just seemed more simple to give the fact of the matter...and then create from those facts as a base.

------

Now see, this is a very important factor for me to consider while I'm writing this thing. That he "grew up" with someone. It's really different from being "born" in that, Gods live for-ev-er. My cousin and I muled over the concept and came up with some of these things:



Teaser: (sorta)...The events that lead to Raidens sacrifice were as human a reaction as ever(Irritance, abuse, tired of being used or looked over as a realm ect..).



Consisting of some sort of relationship with his Elder Gods long ago to current date, somewhere along the line Raiden has to "grow" into what he is now....that required practice...Which also indicates Trial and Error to some extent. Which would have to, whether he was born or manifested, consist of some type of parental guidance along the way. See?



If we look at what happened over the course of all our cannon game information, we see a pattern.....



A pattern where every significant individual aligned with "evil" Violated the rules of Earth and or Mortal Kombat....and or the rules of "Balance" if you will. And then you have to consider Shujinko in there as a type of a "big red button" that had been pushed finally for Raiden.



With the final key to that puzzle being that they always get away with it. Concerning Earth anyway....Which would mean alot more to Raiden than the Elders since Earth is his domain//responsibility.



They always come here fuck around, and leave without a sufficient (to Raidens standards) consequence to the damage they caused while they were here.



Shang Tsung//Goro Tried it the "fair" way, but there was no doubt corruption in the systematics of Mk1s' tournament. Reptile, Scorpion, Sub-Zero. And that's just trying to point to some "evil" characters....



Shao Kahn actually took Earth through his violation but lost it by the hands of Liu Kang. Adequate punishment? I wouldn't think so if I were Raiden. That's the equivilant of simply pushing a burglar outside your house, but leaving the door open. (Can't stand there and watch them forever, what happens when you gotta go to the bathroom? lol j/k)



MkS-Z Mythologies we learn of another irritation to Raiden. Shinnok became corrupted and Raiden was no less obligated by design to stop him...Quan Chi was also a major factor in these events.....I explore these aspects in my story too.



Mk4 We learn more of a "War of the Gods" millennium ago, which would calculate as another irritation in my mind if I were the "manager" of an entire realm. Gotta go protect where you came from right?(heavens) But how the hell do you battle someone who potentially helped create you? (Shinnok)..Difficult decision to make when you also have to consider that same individual is trying to kill the Other Elder Gods off...and so on and so on....



Then there's MkDa were they Kill the Second Champion, not to mention the first. "The Great Kung Lao", wouldn't that piss you off? They keep violating the rules...AND they keep finding a way to eliminate your champion from the Contest....Which by the way, you faithfully continue to enter within the ramifications and rules the Elders have set down before you...



MkD Here comes Jinko who's only trying to help....and actually talks to Raiden a few times, but never confirms between two parties (Raiden and the Elders) that this whole deal is real.



Sht, that's alot like having your check set up to be directly deposited into your bank, and you worked for the money. It's pay day, and you have the check stub, but the bank never recognizes the business you work for, or that you were supposed to have money(s) sent there. "Where the hell is my money?!?" *says Raiden* Lol!!



Time to smack Jinko(your "job", who gave you the check stub) and the Bank(the "Elder Gods") for confusing the transaction. haha!



MkA We learn Raidens abitions, which are greatly in violation themselves...(explore later)



LadyRaiden Wrote:
If he was created, he could have very well have been created along with the Earth along with all the original elemental gods. The more concept related gods (War, Love, etc) were create when there were sentient life that required such dieties. Which brings up a big question: How much of real world history or theory do you want to bring into this? If you want to bring in as much as possible, we bring up the problem of that new "How the moon was created' theory in which the original Earth was struck by a large chunk of iron causing a good portion of the earth to scatter out into orbit and eventually becoming the moon. If the gods were created along with the Earth could they have survived such an event? Immortal or not that had to hurt! If you want to stick to just MK Mythos then we don't have those concerns but might make thinks more difficult since it might make it difficult to find a 'right time' for a god or gods to be created. IF gods were created they were most likely done when there started to be a need for them on a particular realm. Mainly when there was some life that may start effecting the 'supernatural' or natural balance of that realm. Mainly sentient life. Saurian, humans, etc all have a bad habit of altering the world around them to better suit themselves. Thus gods are required to ensure things don't get out of balance. Now which came first gods or sentient life...its a chicken/egg question. In either case Raiden and other original dieties would have mostly started showing up about the same time the first human (or saurian if you believe the whole Zaterrian theory) picked up his/her first tool or used fire for the first time.




There you go..lol That's right about the state of mind I was in when I started writing my story...Asking questions like:



1. "When will they(Gods) be relavant?". I always just took into account that people believe Raiden has been around since...."the beginning of time". Never a mention of any of the other gods for some reason there....What if I ellaborate on that lack of acknowledgment? idk.



2. When did civilization come along?"....I'm a Science and Reason guy so I like to think it took Raiden some phases of mortal evolution to see his first civilization.



3. "Where was Raiden when all of this was going on?"....Being Created and going though Trial and errors...In history, what do we know happened to the Earth? What could cause those things that would be relative to a God? Probably Raiden in an Mk setting...



4. "When was Raiden Born//Created?" > > The beginning of "time".





Very good.



___________________________



I don't know much about Shinto and the actual facts behind Japanese//Chinese deities and such so I couldn't go there with you and hold any weight....well, maybe on a conceptual level at least. But I like fact too much in these particular instances.



Anyway, what do you make of all this?





mkflegend Wrote:
Hmmmm, the moon one sounds interesting.





Perhaps you can say something like Raiden was an old, old MK warrior himself back in the day wayy before the first MK and some where along that line he did something that helped Earthrealm some how and he was eventually made into a God and protector of earthrealm.




I'm glad you find it intriguing MkFl, Unfortunately, I've tossed around that idea in the early stages and there are too many un anserable questions there. If I go with that ideaology...



For 1: Then how has he been around since "the beginning of time"? Just a conceptual exsistance mad up by man? Then is Raiden a liar?!? heh..j/k



2. Humans came before time itself? This would have to be so in order for him to be a warrior, and then transformed into a God at some point if I still tried to follow what the common belief is about Raidens age....and if that's the case, who's really the God of Earth?



Fujin? // Why is he now the apprentice?



Haha! I beat you to it...(see, you like fu--ji-n..nm..haha)



But you see what I mean though..right?


Ohh yeah for sure, way too many questions with a lot of theories if you ask me lol.

As for Fujin, well he played a huge role in MK4 helping Raiden out and later on being granted protector of earthrealm since Raiden was promoted Elder God before the events of MK:DA, MKD, MKA etc happened.

Fujin thought in MKA we learn he's much more then an apprentice, he is the actual protector of Earthrealm especially with Raiden going psychotic now on everyone that ever threatened Earthrealm lol.

Hopefully they both come back in MK8. Personally IMO, they're both important.

LadyRaidenPosted: 09/16/2007 01:38 AMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

ThePredator151 Wrote:
I need to update this thread again. What's something interesting though?/

hmm..





Let's see...

You've covered where/when gods come from, what makes a god a god, what angers a god...indirectly we even covered how a god 'gets paid' and the ranking of gods.

How about what pleases a god...(ok get your minds out of the gutter). I mean what does a god like..art, music, sports, bird watching? Or what one does in his free time (or if they even get any free time which may lead to another reason why Raiden went postal)?


ThePredator151Posted: 09/17/2007 09:24 AMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

LadyRaiden Wrote:
ThePredator151 Wrote:
I need to update this thread again. What's something interesting though?/


hmm..







Let's see...



You've covered where/when gods come from, what makes a god a god, what angers a god...indirectly we even covered how a god 'gets paid' and the ranking of gods.



How about what pleases a god...(ok get your minds out of the gutter). I mean what does a god like..art, music, sports, bird watching? Or what one does in his free time (or if they even get any free time which may lead to another reason why Raiden went postal)?





Hm....All good points. Got me thinking now.....You know what I think I'll do? I think I'll put what I have of my story in here to analyze. I guess I would like other Raiden Folk to see it first anyway to make sure I don't fudge too much. aheh, Would you like to do that for a spell?

I have something like 4-5 out of, I think its gonna be 8 rough....ROUGH chapters done now. I want the end product only to have about 5 good chapters, as well as have art and be a FanArt of mine and all that.....I'm the newest kind of ammetuer writer already as far as big projects like this. But since my cousins got killed a few weeks ago, it really has soured my inspiration to finish the thing up already.... Maybe going over, and tossing around concepts from the stuff I already have will help to finish the chapters I don't have...

Ye or Ne on that?

I also have another idea as well. We could do an "Official character Profile" according to what we all agree on for the character or whatever...After all, I forgot I titled this thread the "Fan Faq" for Raiden. Maybe we could go through and make our Fan interpretation of what Raidens profile, and maybe a bio SHOULDlooks like to us?

Ye or Ne on that?

---------------
Didn't mean to blow your ideas off there LR, but my mind was in the gutter haha!

I'll come back and change the thread around with something though..

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LadyRaidenPosted: 10/01/2007 02:32 AMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

Yea on the bio...

Should we each do our own? I'm assuming the bio is to be based off the info here or can it be off of our own fanfictions?

sibunadPosted: 10/02/2007 06:46 PMStatus ::


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RE: Official Raiden Thread(Re-Born) 2nd Question: How do you define a God? -- What makes a God, a God?

man this is one of the best threads for me but i don't know why it isn't on the 2nd page already

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