Excellent post.


OK, I've rewatched cutscene. From that angle it looked like his shield from MKD intro, but indeed, Raiden shoot lightning at Liu Kang. Still, it's not Raiden's fault, since he acted in defense.


Shut ye yapper. You're annoying. Also, stop spreading lie.
I can admit my mistakes and I do so, unlike you.

No Flaming Let's post with a little more respect please. "Harassing and degrading other members is not acceptable. As such, there will be very little tolerance for "flaming". Arguments and debates are a healthy and natural part of the forum experience, but users must always remember to respect their fellow posters." ThePredator151

I interpreted the scene as Raiden wanting to shoot lightning at Liu Kang as a "back off" gesture, but he didn't even know his own strength, and, of course, fries him.

Thanks to this thread, I've been replaying story mode and I feel like there are a lot of "between the lines" script and facial cues that I never noticed.

That or I gotta quit smoking while playing MK.

Anyway, why was Quan Chi so damn pleased when Liu defeated Shao Khan? I feel like he somehow meddled in Raiden's attempts to prevent Armageddon.

If not for the fuck of him having even more to do with the storyline. He's in everyone's mix.

...reads to me like you're expecting something you shouldn't from a fan-based discussion board. It also reads like you missed the part where we affect every-game they produce (aside from mk1). You do know that a huge chunk of the ideas that go into MK games comes from right off of sites like MKO, right? With full respect to the development teams, do you think the great success of MK9 came purely from the in-house studios of WB and the MK/NRS Teams? If so, you're dead wrong.

Just because myself, or others are not actual members of the MK/NRS Team(s), doesn't mean we're not part of the culture that creates these games.



*standing ovation* - Or, fodder for a future revision on how to introduce a better Raiden backstory, or a sub-plot, or an updated bio, or comic book fodder...etc. It's their job to figure out how to use these things, if they'd like.



Again, their job, not mine. They can reach the ideas about this character now, because we have spoken them up. If they want to utilize the information, it's to their discretion how they'd manipulate the ideas to fit the theme and overall presentation of whatever game they use it for. Make no mistake though, they use stuff like this all the time. The evidence is in-the-games.



No confusion here. I know that I'm encouraging them to manipulate their idealism and concept of what a God should be presented to me as, so that I may have a more enjoyable playing experience. THAT'S the point.

Look at any one of the major characters that has gotten an "out-of-the-blue" overhaul/improvement, from past to current. Again, with full respect to the creative minds on the development team, it looks like you don't know that one or more of us 20yr fan-base members have always had something to do with such changes.

Your assertion for "that's that" is gravely incorrect. Fan input, and furthermore, fan influence is one of this franchises greatest assets. Like i said before, it's written all over the games.



Absolutely not. By that measure, you should fear me on this site without question.



Change your mind. Besides, as a creative type myself, acceptance without criticism of the status quo has never been a strong-suit of mine. I'll always look at and voice ways to do or present things better.



Incorrect. The Mortal Kombat contest came about after Raiden defeated and banished Shinnok to the NetherRealm. It was a way to at least give other threats a run for their money should they come about...and of course, they did [enter shao kahn]. He may not have made up all the rules and all that but, he was one of the minds who helped bring about, and accept this medium as viable. After all, why wouldn't the Elder Gods consider his input when he just saved their asses?

If not anyone else, Mortal Kombat is very much so Raiden's story.



That'd be sweet actually. I'm not asking to have them fundamentally change the game or this character.



Managing relationships has little or nothing to do with building up his persona based on his real ("real" contextually speaking, since we're talking in terms of a video game character) abilities, or influence.

The problem is they haven't written his abilities out...they haven't really described what he is....what he can do...where he can or can't do which specific thing(s), or what effects location or environment has on him etc. They haven't presented him well enough to me as a fan of this particular character, and as a result, I am unsatisfied.

What they've done is infer things...alot. I'm looking for them to commit to harder facts about the character and have those things also influence his behaviors and interactions in the game. I want more specifics.

In other words, he can be "nigh-invincible" and still have issues and different dynamics with other characters in the game. See Dr. Manhattan - an undeniable God-tier non-god character from The Watchmen as a soft example. Raiden is a much more engaged (and animated) character persona than Dr. Manhattan, but just hasn't been built up nearly as much.

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++Side Note: Raiden should be alot more impressive as a God character. His persona should be alot more intimidating because of what we should know that he can do...he should even be really scary at times.. I liked how they handled him in the MKD intro outside of him loosing the fight. But that still fell short to me.

While they did well with that presentation, sometimes, when he assaults someone, I expect him to behave like electricity itself. Erratic, insane, or especially when/if we ever see him in God/Ether form (he is electricity...c'mon already). When his posture is such that he's assaulting, defending, or helping someone, it should be a show. This is why I appreciate what I'm seeing in game from MKX. It looks like they at least tried to give me that "lightning show." I like his MK1 persona + some elements like his from MKD + MK9 the most. But like I said, even that mix falls a little short. With all this said, maintaining the fact that he's a good guy shouldn't be a problem. Lambert in the MK1 movie was excellent for presenting this idea, however, that interpretation of Raiden missed out on alot of the awe.
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Thanks, glad you see my point. See Dr. Manhattan example above for anything else.

That's not entirely true. In the old timeline, the MK tournament was invented by the Elder Gods for the first realms Shao Kahn invaded to defend themselves from him.

Edenia had 10 MK tournaments, Zaterra had 10 MK tournaments, Vaeternus had 10 MK tournaments, etc. They all lost and were conquered fairly.
Also, Shinnok's war with Raiden happened after Kahn conquered Edenia, that's why in MKA, Taven knows Shao Kahn is an enemy, but doesn't know Shinnok went bad and was banished to the Netherealm. He was asleep when that happened. So the tournament already existed. It just wasn't used on Shinnok because he's an Elder God, not an invading king trying to merge two realms.

They probably changed it in the reboot, though. I think Raiden's MK9 bio actually says the tournament was created for Earthrealm.

As a side note Pred, I can't tell you how happy I am to have an actual moderator active and paying attention to threads again.

I don't have that wrong, do I? This is what I thought it was chronologically...

1.) Shinnok went up against the other Elders (long before mk1)
2a.) Raiden beat him and banished him to the NetherRealm (pre-mk1)
2b.) Shao Kahn gets his thing going, and Mortal Kombat contest is created some time in here. (mk1)
3.) Shinnok gets out because of Quan Chi/kills Lucifer etc.. (while mk3 is going on, or simply pre-mk4-ish)
4.) Shinnok vs Edenia, Shinnok wins (pre-mk4)
5.) Shinnok vs Elder Gods again, and wants to get Raiden all over again (mk4)



Is that not right?



"politics" ...np tho.

I repeat my opinion from the previous post, which has become even more evident, because of your own words here: you are acting like typical "I know better fan" coming up with stuff, but without any idea how to actually implement it in the game.

Without it your arguments are extremely weak, because it seems you lack understanding, that MK is not just the story, it's not a movie, not a book. It is a video game, fighting video game, which consists from multiple elements. This fact, also, puts certain limitations on it.

Then there is a fact, that developers ultimately have limited amount of time, money and man-power to realize everything they want, which puts certain things a higher priority than the others (gameplay > detailed character development).

It's 101 of development. And when you ignore it, and make absurd demands without taking into account all of the above, you are no better than generic "Johhny the fanboy", who absolutely lack any understanding on how things done and just make demands on top of the other demands.

Short version:
You, basically, say "WHAT" should be done, without saying "HOW", which is important, when we talk about fighting video game, which limits certain aspects and puts some things on higher priotity then others.
Without answering "HOW" it should be done, your advices, just a unsubstantial wild imagination, with no backing. I am sorry, but this is how it really is.

This why I rarely speculate about such stuff this days, because, I realized, that since I am not involved in the development in any possible way I can't make any grand demands. And since I have good understanding of how development goes, I can see why some of my (potentially good) ideas would be dismissed or never realized in the game, even if I had any control over it.

Because answering question "what should be done" is not enough. Answering "how it should be done (if possible)" is much more important and without it any ideas and advices worth nothing, when it comes to video games.


Self-entitlement is strong in this one.


The who? Fans? What they have contributed to the game factually?
They have programmed it? Came up with fighting system? Story? Made cutscenes and models?
I've been waiting something more of substance rather than typical unfounded elitistic sentiment, which is illogical on many levels.


What I've said above.
With this attitude you can safely demand the most absurd and crazy things and then rage that they were not realized (because they were impossible to realize in the first place). Full circle.
But isn't it how most of the so called "hardcore / oldschool fans" roll this days?


I am sorry to remind you, but you are not the center of the universe. Just another consumer.
Their most important "mission" is to make quality product that will satisfy as much people as possible. If some people will leave - it's not big deal. As long as product sells millions, loss of hundred users is nothing to be worried about. Cue old axiom about how you can't satisfy everyone.


Until I see solid proofs, instead of odd claims and won't believe a single word of it.
MK-Team could and probably took some inspirations from fans, sure, but saying stuff like this, require something more of a substance.


I disagree with that.
General public input is more important, since big titles need to rely on success with major audience, rather than some group, whose interest can often come in conflict with that of developers and general audience.
MK is sort of example of it.


I like humanized Raiden, not infallible ancient being, hence I don't see any reason to change my mind. And your opinion is not that reason, sorry.
I do criticize stuff, but also understand what I can change and what I can't. So, as a rule I prefer to not waste my breath on something that's not worth it.


You are mistaking.
MK is a story about struggle between EarthRealm and their allies against various evil forces.
And while Raiden was an important character in all its installments, he always was playing a second fiddle to the hero of the day, be it Liu Kang, Kung Lao, Shujinko and so on. He has become truly main character only in MK9.


I am sorry, but this is your personal opinion. Not a gospel of truth. I like Raiden the way he is in MK9.


Manhattan was once human. Raiden was not. This puts quite a difference between two characters.

I don't mind giving a "humanized" aspect to Raiden's personality. I still feel that the way it's been done in the MK 2011 is just not the right way to go, because he is portrayed as an idiot. Drawing influence from the first movie and MK: Conquest versions of the character would have come off much better, and it would have made him much more interesting. Hell, even MK: DOTR had Raiden's personality like the Raiden of the first MK movie. He's still a powerful authority, but at the same time, he can crack jokes with the heroes and villains alike. Raiden is pretty one-note as a character in MK 2011 due to the way he is written. There is no sense of mystery, intrigue, or menace to him and instead comes off as kind of dull.

For example, look at the first MK movie where the three main heroes fight off some of Shang Tsung's goons. Raiden appears on the side, condescendingly claps his hands then asks what the heroes will do about the goons that are behind them. As they begin to approach the heroes, Raiden stops them, gives a one-liner, and they are already scared shitless. So just from that scene, we get a bit of his humor and a bit of subtlety at the end in which he informs (or reminds) the goons who he is and what he can do to them. Since certain elements from the movies have brought influence to the games, why couldn't the same have been done for these aspects of Raiden's personality?

The other big issue still lies within his amulet, a retcon that was designed to be the MacGuffin of the story. This goes back to my argument that MK 2011's story should have just been a real reboot instead of trying to tie the story to the old timeline. Doing the time travelling message was a disaster that created inconsistencies and retcons that will probably never be resolved.

Also, regarding the scene where Raiden zaps Liu Kang, it's still a stupid scene, because Raiden should damn well know about the dangers of his own powers. He could have easily teleported to reappear behind Liu Kang to kick him down or something. Contextually, I understand what the story writers were going for by trying to create that sense of drama. The execution is where things go wrong!

This goes back to issues I have with the series as a whole where there are many good ideas regarding characters, story elements, etc. but the execution of some of those ideas are simply not good. Hell, look at the 3D era with the usage of martial arts styles and weapons. It's a neat idea to have characters switch between different fighting styles, but the execution was terrible overall due to very limited move lists, stiff movement, and even the names of some martial arts styles being misspelled (e.g. "Lui He Ba Fa" is supposed to be spelled "Liu He Ba Fa").

I don't think Pred is off on what he's saying, and I do think the fans have a certain degree of influence on the developers. Just going by the last MK game, Ed Boon has stated that it was something of a love letter to the fans, because he knows that there is more of a love for the MK1-MK3 era compared to the later games. Another sign is the openness of the NRS' desire to want to make the gameplay aspect of their fighting games to be solid and have depth. There were elements in MK 2011's gameplay that could and should have been in the 3D era of MK games such as the ability to cancel normal attacks into special attacks.

Going back to the story, I understand that game developers have a limited amount of time and money and need to be able to meet deadlines. However, there are meetings discussing the various aspects of a game. So in regards the story and its characters, it would help to establish a solid foundation, especially since MK is a fighting game series that goes all-out with a fleshed-out story mode. Just the fact that they went all-out like that shows that they do want to tell a great story. But without having the right kind of mindset, a great story can't and won't be told.

Like I said before, I am excited for MKX regardless of the story as I am very interested in the gameplay aspects as well as some of the characters. I do like the story element of moving things forward by having a new generation of characters. I'm still skeptical about how the story will turn out, though I do think it'll turn out to be a much better story than MK 2011's story. Again, there's a part of me that's cynical considering how certain characters have been handled. If MKX's story involves Raiden making up for the events of the last game and becoming a better character, I'm all for it.

I still get the feeling some of you are confusing a character making "bad" decisions with being a bad character, is not the same. The previous Raiden characterizations worked only because he wasn't the main character, just supporting roles. Also, regarding Liu Kang's death, my personal interpretation is that Liu Kang was going for a killing blow against Raiden, the clash of the two powers backfired against Liu causing his death. Even if he's a god, Liu Kang is not an adversary he could take lightly.

I am disagree with all of this and here's why:
calling Raiden an idiot is like calling a blind man stuck in a maze an idiot. Raiden did what he could with limited information he had, the same way blind man would have try to search his way through complicated maze. It's not his fault that those consequences took place.

How he could now, for example, that murder of Motaro will lead to power up Sindel? I am still eagerly waiting answer for this question, but all I hear is "Raiden is idiot..because...". "Because" what?

I've kept asking this question for the last 3 years and so far nobody was able to provide a good answer, grounded in logic and reason, instead of personal hurt feelings and false personal perceptions of a character.

Instead all I hear that he is either should had precognition abilities, or some randomity about how Raiden's portrayal is wrong because it doesn't conform to somebody else's views. Why it should conform to somebody else's views, but developers is a mistery.


It was obvious it would happen the day it MK9 was anounced as reboot / remake.
Personally I can't even imagine shitstorm, if MK9 was separate entry in the series. All this whining about how MK-Team had forgot all this "wonderful" characters from the 3D era, would have been enormous.

All good things in MK9, supposedly done for fans, were necessary for the game to become a quality product. So, I think fans overestimate their importance once again.


Now we go into fanfic territory.


Has it ever occured to you, that MK-Team always wanted to tell the story simply fitting for a fighting game and not an epic masterpiece? Because, it is exactly what they've been doing all this time along.

That's mostly right except 2b happened before 1.

Like I said, in Armageddon Konquest, Kahn started attacking Edenia before Taven went to sleep, but Shinnok went bad and was banished WHILE Taven was asleep.

When Taven wakes up, he does not know Shinnok is evil, he thinks he's still an Elder God and an ally and is tricked into doing things for him.
Also, Shinnok definitely killed Lucifer and stole his throne like thousands of years before MK1. He ruled Hell for a long time, but didn't escape it until the beginning of MK4, and the way he gets out is a combination of Quan Chi secretly having his amulet, and Tanya tricking Sindel into opening a portal that will let him out. Your confusion on that detail may be because there were two different escapes - when Shinnok first arrived in Hell, he was a prisoner in the Prison of Souls, where dead people's souls are trapped and punished for their sins. Quan Chi helped him get out of there, kill Lucifer, and take the throne, which is how their partnership began. So Shinnok escaped the prison very early on, but couldn't escape the realm until MK4.

Ok, few things and we'll be done with this derail...

1.) I'd like you to identify with the idea that I may be choosing whether or not I want to describe the "what" to you, with or without also describing the "how" to you. Shooting a lot of aggressive strawman attacks at me won't change that.

So, like I said before, beyond contributing to these forums and providing what I think should happen so that I may become a more satisfied customer and fan of this series and this character, I believe supplying a method of implementation belongs squarely on the shoulders of the employees who work and get paid to produce Mortal Kombat.

2.) No-one here has to prove a thing to you. No-one needs to prove to you how they believe their ideas might work in-game, nor does anyone here need to prove to you whether or not they know how working on a games development team works. Likewise, no-one here even needs to validate their ideas for you if they don't chose to.

3.) At this point, what I encourage you to do is click all over every link in my signature space or search MKO like everyone else does to find answers like what you're looking for. Analyze the contents of people's posts, look at the dates, decipher when alot of these ideas were posted on these forums in relation to when MK released a game around those time periods. Analyze and conclude whatever you wish from there. I already told you that a lot of the ideas that went into the games came from the fanbase. I'm not going to walk you through this part because I believe you can take it from here.

4.) If you'd like to continue exchanging ideas about this character, I'm all for that. I think it's a fun pass time to go back and forth. Otherwise, this derail is over.

Then your ideas and words are empty and lifeless.
As I said before, without answering "HOW" yourself, there is no point in making any kind of demands and advices. Because, then you can ask them to do anything you want, without caring that it's impossible to do in the first place and then becoming angry that they haven't realized your ideas and vision. Full stupid circle.

Which I expect any smart human to understand, unless they are fanboys, who always demand impossible and so much caught in their VISION, that they ignore reality. There is nothing "strawman" about it. Just simple logic, which always good to easily shoot fans with overblown self-importance.


No.
They care about implemenatation of their own ideas first and foremost, since they do not working exlusively for you, but for millions of other potential customers. You are not the center of their universe, so don't expect much and don't be dissappointed, when your impossible requests (once again) won't be satissfied.
I've warned it'll happen.


Now, which of us is the strawman?

Basically using this kind of logic, I can demand MK-Team to create anything...like 25 Fatalities for every character or Animalities-Stafe Fatalities hybrid. It doesn't matter that it nigh impossible to do and there is no necessity to do so, BUT I DEMAND!! And then by continuing to use your..."approach" I can be angry, when in the new game it was not realized. Why? Who cares, that my idea was stupid and laughable? They did not do it and that's enough to be ANGRY!!
Don't you think it's quite childish?

But I keep forgetting that some of the fans are not rational beings. They always demand, rarely give anything back. And some of them are always angry. Big news.

When, I want to see something in the game I try to put myself in position of developers and think this idea through and try to answer questions:

Is that technically possible to do that element in the first place?
How it'll work with other elements of the game?
Is there really serious need for this element?
How it'll impact balance and gameplay as a whole?
How it should interact with other elements?
What potential problems it can create?

Answering those questions is a part of a development process. Demanding something by side-stepping them is quite childish. There is no instant arrival from point A to point B. But it obviously much easier to demand something and never think about "HOW" it should be done.
Really, really childish. No offence, but that's how it is.

Answering questions is really a good thing.


Basically your answer amounts to "Google it!!"
Thanks, but no thanks. Even if I won't be able to find anything, you always will be able to say, that I wasn't looking hard enough or misunderstood some things.
Looks like you don't have conclusive proofs and instead, just using good old "find proofs of my words yourself".
I am not playing such games, sorry.


Whatever.