No she wouldn't automatically be a cryomancer, but if she could manage to find a magical item or something to get rid of her demonic nature, is it so hard to imagine that she could also choose to be a cryomancer? Sheesh. Didn't you ever watch the muppet babies? Imagination?

"Choose"?

You think adding a magical artifact to MK canon that allows an individual to change their race to whatever they want it to be would be a good idea?
"Imagination" is a fine excuse for coloring outside the lines when you're 3 years old, but it can't change the fact that that makes the drawing look like shit. An adult storyteller with an adult audience has an obligation to tell stories that are good.

They have done worse. Ashrah's kriss sword (I think it was?) did something similar. With all the crazy stuff and all the realms there are, it isn't really such a stretch. Is it a good idea? I don't know. Maybe.

Ashrah's Kriss did not allow her to choose what race she wanted to be.
As far as we know, the only difference between a normal demon and the "ascended demon" she became is that the second isn't inherently evil anymore, and thus, can't change between looking human and looking monstrous.

No, but it managed to purge her soul of "evil" , an intangible concept. I don't think it's much of a stretch for something like I outlined above but more fleshed out.

Let's also not forget Nitara, a vampire. We don't know what kind of vampire she is but technically if she bit Stryker wouldn't he become a vampire? A new race?

Scorpion was a regular human ninja and now he is a ghost rider. You may not like my idea, but I'm a little surprised you guys seem to be finding this concept hard to wrap your mind around even if you don't agree.

I know you don't agree RazorsEdge701, but let's pretend you do for a minute. How would you justify her becoming a cryomancer? Any ideas? Consider it a creative exercise.

Changing from a human to a vampire or from the living to the dead is NOT the same thing as a deus ex fucking machina artifact that lets you become whatever the hell you want to be.

The MK universe has enough magic artifacts for people to hunt for already without adding more, anyway. If there was an item out there that could change people's races, wouldn't poor bastards who've had problems of this variety like Motaro and Mileena been after it ALREADY?

See, that right there is how you tell the difference between a good idea and a bad idea. A good idea 1) fits into the canon in a way that makes sense and doesn't contradict or confuse the past and 2) is actually INTERESTING and can carry over to future games, continuing the intrigue, it doesn't just begin and end in the same game and that's all she wrote.

The last time I was willing to entertain and creatively contribute to an idea I had already shot down, I did it because portions of the idea had merit even if the whole did not. (and also because the topic creator was an oversensitive female whose feelings I had apparently hurt and I was trying to calm her down >_>)
This, on the other hand? I can't think of a SINGLE good thing that could ever possibly come out of turning Sareena into Frost 2.0.

It would be DESTRUCTIVE to her character, because the ENTIRE reason Sareena is cool in the first place is her UNIQUENESS.

And that completely and totally sums up my feelings on the matter, so I'll just end by pointing out how ridiculously off-topic we've gotten.

I like the character but what is it that you find so unique about her compared to the other assassins, Rain, Kia, Jataka, Mileena, Noob, Smoke, etc.

There are a lot of realms with lots of magic out there. Edenia was supposedly merged with outworld, but lo and behold now it's back to it's original pristine state. I don't remember the explanation for that. There are a lot of unexplained things in these videogames.

If the Lin Kuei can turn some of there members into cyborg terminators, then maybe they have dabbled in genetics? Gene splicing. I solved it for ya without a deus ex expletive machina artifact. I'm brilliant. I know it. It's okay, you can say it. Genetically created cryomancers.

Do you even realize that except for Smoke, every character you just listed is willingly evil?
And if the Lin Kuei knew a damn thing about genetic experimentation, they wouldn't have used abducting children with mutant powers as their primary method of recruiting. That's just an inefficient use of resources.
Oh my god I am so tired of talking to people who haven't studied their canon yet for some reason think they can write sequels anyway. It's like you people are deliberately trying to punish me for being smarter.

Yeah. Although Rain doesn't think he is evil. If I remember mka right, he thinks he is entitled to the Edenian throne. Who are we to argue?

Noob is an evil wraith now, but when he died as Sub Zero he was only tainted with evil, and he did spare Sareena. He wasn't exactly a black and white character. Noob now is evil, but I think there is a tragic nature that can be played with in the future.

I would like a Noob/Sareena confrontation in the future. That would be cool too.

Relax RazorsEdge701. Except for the last few games, I've got almost all of mk 1-4 memorized too. The mk team doesn't seem to mind playing with the canon when it suits them though. They don't take it as seriously as we do. They will disregard and retcon whatever they see fit and they don't follow through with a lot of their storylines. You're too uptight. You don't agree with my story preference on this. I don't agree with yours. I think you're interpreting some of the bio's a little to strictly.

You asked me what the difference between Sareena and the other assassins was. Willingness is a pretty huge one.

Rain wants to take over Edenia. Noob wants to take over the Netherealm. Kia and Jataaka want to serve Quan Chi and do his bidding. Mileena wants to be Kitana. Kitana wants to protect Edenia.

Sareena just wants to be free. Free of the Netherealm, free of Quan Chi, of fighting, of being hated and hunted and treated like a monster.

So unique story? Check.

Looks? Very unique. Oh sure, you could say Sindel is a "goth chick" too, but Sindel's look is so different, and in my opinion, downright ugly. Sareena actually captures both the "cute" AND "sexy" aspects of the goth subculture if you're into that sort of thing.

And moves? The part that would be most affected by adding ice powers? Well...in Armageddon, she had the single coolest moveset in the entire god damned game.

The super-quick daggers, the "Five Star Kick" (which if you ask me, looks like she's drawing a pentagram with her foot when she does it), and the moves where she has FIRE trailing from her? Those are all very definitive, those are the kinds of moves that stick with a person and they hope to see in future games. Those are the kinds of moves that could one day become staples of the series. And for the most part, they don't say "Ice", they say "Hell".

You think after MK1 came out, Boon and Tobias sat around thinking "Y'know, the shadows thing was nice and all, but let's come up with a completely different theme for Johnny in the next game"? NO! They knew enough to keep what works. And that's how iconic moves are born, they stay the damn same from game to game until they stick in people's minds.

That's the same bullshit everyone says when I find holes in their poorly thought out "it came off the top of my head but I liked it so much that now I'm gonna be stubborn and refuse to see the flaws in it" ideas.

If you don't know the canon, you don't have the necessary tools to get creative and write out your own bio/sequel ideas, and that's all there is to it.
"It's just fan fiction" and "they don't care so why should I" are just poor excuses to be lazy and write badly. Do a job right or don't do it at all.
Besides, I've seen enough of Vogel's work to know he DOES care. No one puts that much detail into something unless they have a passion for it. It's just that he has to constantly come up with ways to explain Boon's dumb "I want to bring back this character even though we killed them off" whims.
I truly feel for John Vogel. When I read the MKO boards, I know what it must be like to have his job.

I never said there were no flaws in my ideas. I find some in yours. I still like mine better. That's it. Difference of opinion. I have mine and you have yours. I like mine better.

I think Sareena's look is sufficiently different from Sindel that I don't even really draw that comparision. I see how it could be made, but I think that is a minor criticism. Besides with so many characters populating the mk universe, there is certainly enough room for 2 goth chicks.

I do take issue with your statement that I don't know mk canon. I went into some depth above how Sareena since her very inception (hell see even debuted in a SUB ZERO game) has been tied to the ongoing Sub Zero saga.

I don't think it hurts her to be associated with Sub Zero, you want her to be a completely independent operator. Difference of opinion.

She could also keep her super quick daggers, just made of ice if she had ice powers. I don't see it happening, but your point about the move set being completely changed I feel is wrong. I addressed that above, you chose not to comment on it.

Sub Zero is a more powerful warrior and would kill Sareena in a fight. Sareena as a cryomancer would be a power upgrade for her. Lust for power and the search for increased power is a common theme in the mk universe.

I agree with you that the mk team cares and that does include John Vogel too. I never said they didn't care. The fact that they read the boards and continue to have my loyal business means they care and that I largely approve of their efforts despite my own preferences and critiques. My point was and maybe I didn't elaborate enough, the mk team when making a game have more to worry about than just continuity and story. They have marketing concerns and gameplay concerns. And the bottom line is it is a fighting game, not an rpg, a fighting game ultimately doesn't have to have the strongest story, it's about the fighting.

Mk vs DCU had a much better story than it had to have. Congrats to the mk team for a good job. I enjoyed it.

As far as my skeletal Sareena bio I gave you above, remember you asked me how I would write it and where I would take her character. I answered. I'm not a writer nor do I do fan fic. I do think my points logically follow her already established character arc though and I stand by them.

I never said I wanted her to be completely separate from Sub-Zero. That was Xia.
I just don't think it makes a lick of sense for two people to have the same powers just because they're allies. You want Kung Lao to start throwing fireballs shaped like dragons, too? Perhaps it would suit your fancy if Sonya got a pair of god damn metal arms?
New rule, everybody! If you're on a team, you have to be a clone of your teammate!

Metal breasts? I kid, I kid.

I don't think nor did I ever say all teammates should have the same powers, I do think it is applicable to Sareena and where her character history comes from however. I think you went off on a tangent there.

I think you're the one on a tangent, because where Sareena comes from and her history has NOTHING to do with ice.
She's from HELL. Her element is FIRE, her home is LAVA, the ONLY connection she's EVER had to ANYTHING of the cold variety is crushing on the brothers -Zero.
You're out of your damn mind if you think it "fits her history" to turn into a cryomancer.

One of the main pieces of evidence I point to in support is her what if mka ending. Let's suppose for a minute that Sareena wins mka and is the canon ending. Guess what? Need I continue? (I don't think it happens though)

We can both agree that her #1 desire and drive is to escape not just the netherrealm but enslavement also. However keeping that in mind, and what you just said, she might resent her element of fire and that could explain her fascination with Sub Zero. Keep in mind that upon escaping the netherrealm in mka what did she do? She sought sanctuary in Sub Zero's frozen Lin Kuei compound. You don't see anything significant with that?

Maybe I'm reading too much into the tea leaves here.

She's "fascinated" with the Sub-Zeroes because the first one was the ONLY guy she's EVER met who defied Quan Chi and could help her escape the Netherealm, and his brother is an even nicer Quan Chi hating dude than he was, duh.

There's not some weird element fetish lying just beyond that. She didn't even know the Lin Kuei temple was frozen. If you read her Armageddon bio, she never even makes it there! She follows Subbie into the Netherealm to save him from Noob/Smoke and gets captured/brainwashed by Quan instead.

And for the love of god, the MKA endings suck and none of them are coming true because they were probably all written in five minutes as a joke, LET THEM GO.

I agree about her initial interest in both Sub Zeros, but there still could be an elemental fetish there. As I matter of fact I rather like that idea. A fire demon of sorts liking a ice warrior and his brother who comes into hell and beats her masters. Cool (pun intended)


Also it is freaking Sub Zero. It had to at least cross her mind that the hidden Lin Kuei temple would be somewhere cold. duh. It probably would have been a disappointment if it was located in a volcano or Hawaii.

Agree most of the mka endings suck and were probably written as a joke.

Do you have ADD, or do you realize that "I like the fire character/ice character dynamic" is a direct contradiction of "the fire character should have the same powers as the ice character?" You can have one or the other, not both.

This conversation hurts my brain. I'm going to bed.

Sorry RazorsEdge701 I actually went to bed after my last post last night and I just woke up after sleeping 18 hrs. You know what always helps me feel better when I have a head ache? I suggest playing mk. I was actually getting ready to play some mk vs dc right now.

Have fun. I also think you're reading comprehension is a little rusty. Liking the fire demon/ice character combo is not necessarily a contradiction if the fire character would like to trade up for an element that represents the opposite of said character's enslavement. You seem to continually form your responses to my statements based on ideas and facts not actually in my posts. Perhaps your monitor is broken? Maybe you should get that looked at? I'm just concerned for your health. Your starting to worry me.

Smugness and condescension don't work when the other person is intelligent.

I read the words you used, I fully understood what you meant by them, and I responded based on that.

If the idea of a fire character liking an ice character appeals to you, fine. If the idea that the fire character wants to BE an ice character as a result also appeals to you, that's ALSO fine. What's NOT fine is GIVING a character what they want. Where the hell do you take the story after a happy ending, hmm? That's why they put the word "end" in that term, because there's no further story once you do it.

Besides which, Sareena finding a deus ex machina magic item that will all of a sudden change her from a demon into a cryomancer, two completely unrelated things, is still a BAD idea at its core and explaining the reasons why you want it to happen can't change that.

Imagine if I said "I think Liu Kang should wear blue and throw lollipops instead of fireballs". Now imagine I actually had what I thought was a really good, convincing reason for that, and I used things that had happened in Liu Kang's past to back myself up, like "Well Kung Lao wears blue and Raiden wears blue and Kitana wears blue. Everyone Liu is friends with wears blue, so why doesn't he?" Would you STILL ever think that makes any fucking sense?

That's basically what your idea sounds like to the rest of us. Since the last time I read this topic I've slept twice, gone about my business, and forgotten this entire conversation...and now that I'm back and read it again, I STILL feel the exact same way. A bad idea is a bad idea.

I agree. No reason for you to be smug or condescending. Apology accepted.

Now we are getting somewhere. You have acknowledged that you understand my idea and that I have shown my reasoning for it. Thanks.

You have also said that you don't like it and think it is a bad idea. Like I stated earlier that is cool too. To each their own. I see your point too and I still like mine better. I'm not changing your mind and you're not changing mine.

You asked a question above about where do you take the story after a character gets what they want. I respond with this, is what a character wants always the best thing for them? The answer is no. In real life if all of us always got what we wanted half of us would still be miserable and always getting what you want also leads to problems of its own.

If the mk team went this route for Sareena (which I don't think they are going to by the way) this is only another chapter in her story and does not automatically lead to the end her as viable character or no more story potential.

I understand your statement about Liu Kang and lollipops, but I don't think it is really relevant in this conversation since we are only talking about Sareena and her history. I never suggested linking every character to their allies improves their stories.

I would never suggest that for Liu Kang since I hate him and I think the best thing for mk was when they killed him in mkda.

The only thing along those lines I might suggest is if the mk team leaves Liu Kang dead for mk9 (which I think they should) I would give his bicycle kick to Sonya since she already has the vertical bicycle kick too and I would hate for that move to be left out of the game.

That being said, we have each stated our positions and we still like our own views on the characters respectively. Agree or not I don't think there is much else to say here unless you can think of anything else, so I will see you on the next topic.