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Here are my thoughts on the 3D era characters... Some I like, some I don't, some have potential, some are just dead in the water and likely can't / won't be fixed (Hsu Hao, Mokap, ect.). I do see a lot of arguments around the different MK forums though ripping these characters apart and I would just like to take a second to put some things into perspective and show off some of the arguments I collected this morning about these characters;
"Frost is just a clone of Sub-Zero since she has ice powers"
So there can be multiple characters who use and spam fire attacks, but only one ice based character? .....Okay.
"Havik looks like a generic enemy in an rpg"
Same could be said for Baraka, yet everyone loves him despite the fact he is literally just a mindless henchman who acts as a punching bag the majority of the time.
"Li Mei is boring and has a generic moveset"
Li Mei was one of the more promising characters that started out; she had four special moves in MK:DA while most characters had only two or three. I mean, for crying out loud, she was touted as The Defender of the People of Outworld, she could've basically been the female/Outworld equivalent to Liu Kang.
"Hotaru looks exactly like Fujin, so he shouldnt come back".
All the ninjas looked the same and with time started looking completely different. Why cant Hotaru be given that chance as well?
"Sareena is garbage and her moves are just knive throws and kicks.
Sareena barely had any time to develop. They could incorporate her monster side into it to make gameplay more interesting plus her and Bi-Han's connection could be a major story point, especially if Bi-Han is still Noob Saibot. Her connection to Quan Chi could also become of importance if Quan Chi isn't offed in MKX.
"Bo Rai Cho is gross and a lame joke character".
And why exactly cant there be a major character with some humorous qualities? I mean Johnny did it. They should definitely cut his farting and throwing up down but he can still be a great character.
- A lot of non-specific griping and shit-talking about Tanya or Fujin.
Tanya is a traitor and a massive wildcard, also one of only a handful of characters in the canon who is Edenian and could serve as a major threat to Kitana if Edenia ever comes back into play. Fujin is the God of Wind, that alone should given him an excuse to be included because that's just fucking as awesome a set-up a character could hope for.
Now, a lot of people I'm assuming at this point are thinking, "Hey KM, you're missing the bigger picture here. It doesn't matter if you can defend individual arguments against individual characters, the fact is that the 3D characters are tainted by their association with what most people see as the worst period in the franchise."
Sure, I guess, but that all comes down to pure opinion. My opinion is that the era of 3D games started the trend of Boon & Co. branching out and starting to try and make Mortal Kombat MORE than just your average, run of the mill fighting game. They wanted more depth, they wanted characters more fleshed out, they wanted the story to be bigger and bolder than it was before, they wanted a more expansive and deeper mythology to their universe. They started experimenting with Konquest Mode which eventually would lead us to getting full-fledged story campaigns that actually let us get to see the story in action instead of through a singular 3 minute opening cut-scene and still picture endings. Without that era of experimentation, I doubt Mortal Kombat would be the way it currently is today.
I think that quite a few people give many of the 3D era characters a lot of pointless and rather unfair hate. However, that doesn't automatically mean they are all hidden gems either, diamonds in the rough if you will. The major problem many of the 3D characters had was that on paper they sounded good, some were even awesome on paper, but they just turned our either boring, forgettable and just plain underwhelming which is arguably worse then being just bad. They suffered at the hands of Midway's need for a new MK every other year. They just simply didn't get enough work done to them to smooth out their looks, their story and their gameplay to make each one of them individually stand out.
I personally think that many of the characters could turn out great if they were given a second chance and treated with more care and attention to detail. After all, look at Kano's reveal for MKX. Many people were on the fence or neutral about him. Then, the second his MKX reveal came up there was just a huge BOOM in the number of people in support of the character and even the amount that was purely excited for his inclusion. I mean, let's face it. Kano was always nothing more than just a thug who ran a gang, that's it. Nothing special there. Now look at peoples opinions of him based on the gameplay we've seen. Surely they could do the same for characters that were, at first, underwhelming but had a lot of potential from the 3D era. As evidence of how this could work in their benefit, see Exhibit A; MK9 Stryker. If the work is put in, these characters can shine. That point cannot even be argued, in my opinion.
"Frost is just a clone of Sub-Zero since she has ice powers"
So there can be multiple characters who use and spam fire attacks, but only one ice based character? .....Okay.
"Havik looks like a generic enemy in an rpg"
Same could be said for Baraka, yet everyone loves him despite the fact he is literally just a mindless henchman who acts as a punching bag the majority of the time.
"Li Mei is boring and has a generic moveset"
Li Mei was one of the more promising characters that started out; she had four special moves in MK:DA while most characters had only two or three. I mean, for crying out loud, she was touted as The Defender of the People of Outworld, she could've basically been the female/Outworld equivalent to Liu Kang.
"Hotaru looks exactly like Fujin, so he shouldnt come back".
All the ninjas looked the same and with time started looking completely different. Why cant Hotaru be given that chance as well?
"Sareena is garbage and her moves are just knive throws and kicks.
Sareena barely had any time to develop. They could incorporate her monster side into it to make gameplay more interesting plus her and Bi-Han's connection could be a major story point, especially if Bi-Han is still Noob Saibot. Her connection to Quan Chi could also become of importance if Quan Chi isn't offed in MKX.
"Bo Rai Cho is gross and a lame joke character".
And why exactly cant there be a major character with some humorous qualities? I mean Johnny did it. They should definitely cut his farting and throwing up down but he can still be a great character.
- A lot of non-specific griping and shit-talking about Tanya or Fujin.
Tanya is a traitor and a massive wildcard, also one of only a handful of characters in the canon who is Edenian and could serve as a major threat to Kitana if Edenia ever comes back into play. Fujin is the God of Wind, that alone should given him an excuse to be included because that's just fucking as awesome a set-up a character could hope for.
Now, a lot of people I'm assuming at this point are thinking, "Hey KM, you're missing the bigger picture here. It doesn't matter if you can defend individual arguments against individual characters, the fact is that the 3D characters are tainted by their association with what most people see as the worst period in the franchise."
Sure, I guess, but that all comes down to pure opinion. My opinion is that the era of 3D games started the trend of Boon & Co. branching out and starting to try and make Mortal Kombat MORE than just your average, run of the mill fighting game. They wanted more depth, they wanted characters more fleshed out, they wanted the story to be bigger and bolder than it was before, they wanted a more expansive and deeper mythology to their universe. They started experimenting with Konquest Mode which eventually would lead us to getting full-fledged story campaigns that actually let us get to see the story in action instead of through a singular 3 minute opening cut-scene and still picture endings. Without that era of experimentation, I doubt Mortal Kombat would be the way it currently is today.
I think that quite a few people give many of the 3D era characters a lot of pointless and rather unfair hate. However, that doesn't automatically mean they are all hidden gems either, diamonds in the rough if you will. The major problem many of the 3D characters had was that on paper they sounded good, some were even awesome on paper, but they just turned our either boring, forgettable and just plain underwhelming which is arguably worse then being just bad. They suffered at the hands of Midway's need for a new MK every other year. They just simply didn't get enough work done to them to smooth out their looks, their story and their gameplay to make each one of them individually stand out.
I personally think that many of the characters could turn out great if they were given a second chance and treated with more care and attention to detail. After all, look at Kano's reveal for MKX. Many people were on the fence or neutral about him. Then, the second his MKX reveal came up there was just a huge BOOM in the number of people in support of the character and even the amount that was purely excited for his inclusion. I mean, let's face it. Kano was always nothing more than just a thug who ran a gang, that's it. Nothing special there. Now look at peoples opinions of him based on the gameplay we've seen. Surely they could do the same for characters that were, at first, underwhelming but had a lot of potential from the 3D era. As evidence of how this could work in their benefit, see Exhibit A; MK9 Stryker. If the work is put in, these characters can shine. That point cannot even be argued, in my opinion.
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I liked Bo, The puke puddle made perfect sense, but the farting every second was tedious & annoying.
Spitting booze flamethrower is fine, even a shorter mist move during gameplay,
Or a stun move, where he spits booze in your face, like Reptile.
The fart flamethrower Fatality may`ve been a reference to the rumored character Pedro, who was a stereotypical Mexican caricature, who farted fire.
I made a fire ninjer for my comics with a similar move, but it was originally supposed to be a flamming tailwhip move that smacked them back. I just called it ass fire as a flamethrower thinking people would question the fire being solid enough to knock someone back.
I remember all the hate for Frost and Li Mei as clones of Sub-Zero, and Mileena.
I loved Li Mei`s original outfit. Awesome design.
My only gripes with DA-A was the clunky gameplay.
They were AWESOME games.
Ka-Tra
Spitting booze flamethrower is fine, even a shorter mist move during gameplay,
Or a stun move, where he spits booze in your face, like Reptile.
The fart flamethrower Fatality may`ve been a reference to the rumored character Pedro, who was a stereotypical Mexican caricature, who farted fire.
I made a fire ninjer for my comics with a similar move, but it was originally supposed to be a flamming tailwhip move that smacked them back. I just called it ass fire as a flamethrower thinking people would question the fire being solid enough to knock someone back.
I remember all the hate for Frost and Li Mei as clones of Sub-Zero, and Mileena.
I loved Li Mei`s original outfit. Awesome design.
My only gripes with DA-A was the clunky gameplay.
They were AWESOME games.
Ka-Tra
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Tetra_Vega Wrote:
rumored character Pedro, who was a stereotypical Mexican caricature, who farted fire
rumored character Pedro, who was a stereotypical Mexican caricature, who farted fire
What in the donkey-thrusting fuck is this? What era was that from?
Might be a reason they took a Spanish word for Bo' Rai Cho's name.
I think the logic of "... but they can make the 3d characters better now" is weak because, of course they can. That's not the issue. The issue is essentially are all of those 3d characters unique, interesting, and promising enough so much as to rule out the inclusion of a brand new character.
Actually yes I do think they can be more interesting. Jax and his daughter don't compare to Fujin. Oooooo a military family how interesting. Not really. God of wind who job is to guide people. Way better. Mortal kombat is a crazy world and it should be explored more. It would be nice to know about some 3d characters more to get a better understanding. We already know about jax. He been the same for years.
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Mojo6 Wrote:
I think the logic of "... but they can make the 3d characters better now" is weak because, of course they can. That's not the issue. The issue is essentially are all of those 3d characters unique, interesting, and promising enough so much as to rule out the inclusion of a brand new character.
I think the logic of "... but they can make the 3d characters better now" is weak because, of course they can. That's not the issue. The issue is essentially are all of those 3d characters unique, interesting, and promising enough so much as to rule out the inclusion of a brand new character.
Which, case in point, is not the issue at all as a good chunk of the original Trilogy characters were dull as well, what with pallet swaps. It took an entire generation for most of those characters (ninjas, cyborgs) to even gain a distinctive personality. NRS hardly ever comes up with new characters that are unique, interesting and promising anymore. It's pretty rare. Sure, we have our Kotal Kahn's, our D'Vorah's, our Ferra/Torr's, even our Erron Black's but for all of those we have Cassie who is essentially Cage/Blade, Takeda who is like a mechanized Scorpion from what we've seen and Jacqui who is a female Jax right down to the arm enhancements. I mean, for some of them, they didn't even bother making them unique in the overall basic/stripped down concept, they are literally just "human Scorpion," "female Jax," "daughter of Cage" and it leaves me saying "Uh.....what the fuck?" Like did they really have to give the arms to Jacqui? Couldn't she JUST be a kickboxer who HAPPENS to be the daughter of Jax or was that not enough to beat the point into being blatantly obvious that "Oh, that's Jax's daughter!" That's like Cyrax having a son but they make him a cyborg too in fear of not getting the point across.
And aside from the family trend, I now see another trend brewing; borrowing.
- Kung Jin, though unique to the MK universe as a bow user, is just the MK equivalent to Green Arrow, which was featured in their previous game.
- Erron Black will, no doubt if he's in, play incredibly similar to Deathstroke.
- Reptile sharing abilities given to The Flash.
- Ferra/Torr or Goro presumably playing similar to Grundy or Doomsday.
That's just thoughts off the top of my head but then you could easily say that the problem now is that NRS aren't just re-skinning characters like Kano/Sonya and turning them into Kira, they're now turning some Injustice characters into MK characters.
The point I'm trying to make is, these characters got the shaft. Compared to a lot of the Trilogy characters, they didn't get the necessary development to turn them from rough designs of characters into fully-fleshed out depictions like your Scorpions, your Kitanas, your Liu Kangs. The rate we're going, I'd rather see a lot of returning 3D faces because at least some of those are a lot more unique and interesting compared to "younger female Jax" and "younger human Scorpion."
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I don't get the mindset that NRS straight up hates 3D era characters because they haven't been confirmed for MKX. They have a story they want to tell with these descendants, I'm going to see how it is before I jump the gun and assume NRS left the 3D characters in an abandoned warehouse and set the building on fire.
NRS is well aware of the following certain 3D era characters have. Which is why I firmly believe if they don't make it this game, then there's always the next game. People have this idea in their heads that if the 3D era characters aren't in MKX, then they're gone forever. No. Everyone comes back eventually. It just might take awhile. But hey, patience is a virtue.
I would've loved to have seen Fujin, but if he don't make it then tough shit. I'll just take my Kung Lao, Cassie Cage, and Erron Black and make the best of it.
NRS is well aware of the following certain 3D era characters have. Which is why I firmly believe if they don't make it this game, then there's always the next game. People have this idea in their heads that if the 3D era characters aren't in MKX, then they're gone forever. No. Everyone comes back eventually. It just might take awhile. But hey, patience is a virtue.
I would've loved to have seen Fujin, but if he don't make it then tough shit. I'll just take my Kung Lao, Cassie Cage, and Erron Black and make the best of it.
Which, case in point, is not the issue at all as a good chunk of the original Trilogy characters were dull as well, what with pallet swaps.
Oh horseshit. Yes maybe in RETROSPECT but in 1992 those "awful pallete swap ninjas" were popular as fuck and the cheesy blatant kung-fu 90's ridiculousness was part of the games charm. There's a REASON MK is culturally iconic enough to be pop knowledge to even non-video game fans. Also, the Ninjas were expanded upon and redesigned as the series advanced so it's not even an accurate context to compare Sub-Zero in 1992 to his more contemporary design.
See I like every single one of the new characters and I don't for a minute buy into that "Cassie is just like her parents" or "Jacqui is just like Jax" crap. I fundamentally disagree with that generalization. You act like you've played the fucking game already and are generalizing at a level that makes this whole conversation ridiculous. Yes there's obvious similarities but both characters will/do act and play differently than their parents. I'm GLAD Jacqui didn't lose out to Hatoru or Cassie get bumped for Nitara. I LIKE that the series is trying to innovate and push things forward by introducing new characters and not just rehashing the same old shit except now in 1080p. Besides, there'll be more of a place for those characters in the next iteration of the MK series, whatever that's going to look like.
I really am tired of trying to convince diehards of the 3d era that all of those characters are worth salvaging just for salvaging sake. It's a circular argument because it boils down to personal preference. There's some huge shitter characters in there in my opinion and I don't buy the whole "lets just give Kai and Kobra a chance to shine guys!!!!" It's moot at this point anyway as NRS clearly has went with the creative direction in MKX to predominantly exclude 3d era characters in the main roster.
Mojo6 Wrote:
See I like every single one of the new characters and I don't for a minute buy into that "Cassie is just like her parents" or "Jacqui is just like Jax" crap. I fundamentally disagree with that generalization. You act like you've played the fucking game already and are generalizing at a level that makes this whole conversation ridiculous.
Yes there's obvious similarities but both characters will/do act and play differently than their parents. I'm GLAD Jacqui didn't lose out to Hatoru or Cassie get bumped for Nitara. I LIKE that the series is trying to innovate and push things forward by introducing new characters and not just rehashing the same old shit except now in 1080p. Besides, there'll be more of a place for those characters in the next iteration of the MK series, whatever that's going to look like.
I really am tired of trying to convince diehards of the 3d era that all of those characters are worth salvaging just for salvaging sake. It's a circular argument because it boils down to personal preference. There's some huge shitter characters in there in my opinion and I don't buy the whole "lets just give Kai and Kobra a chance to shine guys!!!!" It's moot at this point anyway as NRS clearly has went with the creative direction in MKX to predominantly exclude 3d era characters in the main roster.
See I like every single one of the new characters and I don't for a minute buy into that "Cassie is just like her parents" or "Jacqui is just like Jax" crap. I fundamentally disagree with that generalization. You act like you've played the fucking game already and are generalizing at a level that makes this whole conversation ridiculous.
Yes there's obvious similarities but both characters will/do act and play differently than their parents. I'm GLAD Jacqui didn't lose out to Hatoru or Cassie get bumped for Nitara. I LIKE that the series is trying to innovate and push things forward by introducing new characters and not just rehashing the same old shit except now in 1080p. Besides, there'll be more of a place for those characters in the next iteration of the MK series, whatever that's going to look like.
I really am tired of trying to convince diehards of the 3d era that all of those characters are worth salvaging just for salvaging sake. It's a circular argument because it boils down to personal preference. There's some huge shitter characters in there in my opinion and I don't buy the whole "lets just give Kai and Kobra a chance to shine guys!!!!" It's moot at this point anyway as NRS clearly has went with the creative direction in MKX to predominantly exclude 3d era characters in the main roster.
it works both ways. If you think that salvaging for salvaging's sake is not a valid argumentative point because it bouils down to preference, then ALL and EVERY character's future is basically up to designer preference.
Which is absolutely correct. There are some characters I wrote that people liked but they are not going to reappear in print. Ever. Also it is my personal right and choice to deprive NRS of any money as a justified reaction to the latest roster.
The new cast looks good, however it has nothing to offer me right now. I will check out the story mode etc. and most probably will not play the game because this isn't an MK I would happily play.
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Mojo6 Wrote:
Oh horseshit. Yes maybe in RETROSPECT but in 1992 those "awful pallete swap ninjas" were popular as fuck and the cheesy blatant kung-fu 90's ridiculousness was part of the games charm. There's a REASON MK is culturally iconic enough to be pop knowledge to even non-video game fans. Also, the Ninjas were expanded upon and redesigned as the series advanced so it's not even an accurate context to compare Sub-Zero in 1992 to his more contemporary iteration.
See I like every single one of the new characters and I don't for a minute buy into that "Cassie is just like her parents" or "Jacqui is just like Jax" crap. I fundamentally disagree with that generalization. You act like you've played the fucking game already and are generalizing at a level that makes this whole conversation ridiculous.
Yes there's obvious similarities but both characters will/do act and play differently than their parents. I'm GLAD Jacqui didn't lose out to Hatoru or Cassie get bumped for Nitara. I LIKE that the series is trying to innovate and push things forward by introducing new characters and not just rehashing the same old shit except now in 1080p. Besides, there'll be more of a place for those characters in the next iteration of the MK series, whatever that's going to look like.
I really am tired of trying to convince diehards of the 3d era that all of those characters are worth salvaging just for salvaging sake. It's a circular argument because it boils down to personal preference. There's some huge shitter characters in there in my opinion and I don't buy the whole "lets just give Kai and Kobra a chance to shine guys!!!!" It's moot at this point anyway as NRS clearly has went with the creative direction in MKX to predominantly exclude 3d era characters in the main roster.
Which, case in point, is not the issue at all as a good chunk of the original Trilogy characters were dull as well, what with pallet swaps.
Oh horseshit. Yes maybe in RETROSPECT but in 1992 those "awful pallete swap ninjas" were popular as fuck and the cheesy blatant kung-fu 90's ridiculousness was part of the games charm. There's a REASON MK is culturally iconic enough to be pop knowledge to even non-video game fans. Also, the Ninjas were expanded upon and redesigned as the series advanced so it's not even an accurate context to compare Sub-Zero in 1992 to his more contemporary iteration.
See I like every single one of the new characters and I don't for a minute buy into that "Cassie is just like her parents" or "Jacqui is just like Jax" crap. I fundamentally disagree with that generalization. You act like you've played the fucking game already and are generalizing at a level that makes this whole conversation ridiculous.
Yes there's obvious similarities but both characters will/do act and play differently than their parents. I'm GLAD Jacqui didn't lose out to Hatoru or Cassie get bumped for Nitara. I LIKE that the series is trying to innovate and push things forward by introducing new characters and not just rehashing the same old shit except now in 1080p. Besides, there'll be more of a place for those characters in the next iteration of the MK series, whatever that's going to look like.
I really am tired of trying to convince diehards of the 3d era that all of those characters are worth salvaging just for salvaging sake. It's a circular argument because it boils down to personal preference. There's some huge shitter characters in there in my opinion and I don't buy the whole "lets just give Kai and Kobra a chance to shine guys!!!!" It's moot at this point anyway as NRS clearly has went with the creative direction in MKX to predominantly exclude 3d era characters in the main roster.
Can we copy/paste this post in every thread?
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Windice Wrote:
The new characters don't really offer anything interesting. They are just being used to replace there parents in the future. Also mk is never really original in anything. The whole kids thing it's self is a cliche.
The new characters don't really offer anything interesting. They are just being used to replace there parents in the future. Also mk is never really original in anything. The whole kids thing it's self is a cliche.
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FROST4584 Wrote:
Ashrah didn't do anything important to the plot of the Deception. She has NO connection to either the good guys nor the bad guys. She is just doing her own little thing to get out of Netherrealm. How can anyone root for this character if she has nothing to do with the overall story? Her own story of killing off demons isn't interesting in the grand theme of Mortal Kombat Deception. Killing random demons is small beans compared to dealing with Dragon King.
Bo Rhi Cho is just an old guy who has done NOTHING in the past. He didn't even help the heros fight in the battle to stop Tsung and Chi. He rescued Li Mei from the soul transfer .... ok, but that is hardly anything in terms of story. His only claim to fame is that he was written to have trained Liu Kang and Kung Lao a little bit. He is just a fat old guy that farts and burps. His role in the MK universe was NEVER clearly defined. He is just some fat old guy , who wants to feel important again. To me , that is not interesting. Which leads me into Li Mei.
Li Mei , a woman who won the Deadly Alliance tournament. Ok first off, we are never told was or who was in this tournament. I refuse to believe she beat Sonya, Kung Lao, and or Sub-Zero. Again, what did she do in Deadly Alliance, other than fight for her village? The Deadly Alliance tricked her and almost transferred her soul. After she is rescued , how is she defined as character? What acts of heroism helped her become just another character, other than better than average design? Again, what role did she play other than just another generic "hero"? She wanted to screw Dragon King ... wow
What John Tobias did so well was define characters through their actions in the overall story of classic era characters. During the classic era, the character endings and bios helped defined them. Like I wrote above, during the "what if " endings of classic era, what the character did with victory and power in either cannon, non cannon, or semi cannon, reflected far more than the current 3-D characters.
The current team of writers, write the characters like each of their endings are pieces of a larger puzzle. When you have enough of the endings you can see the larger picture. The problem is that the larger picture was never interesting or gave way for character development. Also, in many cases the endings just pointed to the next installment of MK , instead of giving these characters resolution within each game.
Ashrah ending - Kills more demons goes to a higher level of Hell , until one day she will be free. How boring in relation to what was going on in Deception.
Darruis and Dairou two character that have NOTHING to do with either Dragon King or any of the events of Deception. Seriously, read their bios AND endings , they don't mention any of the main good guys or bad guys at all. As I said before, they have no big plans for Mortal Kombat. See my post above about Jax and Sonya, how they changed things regardless if they won MK3 or not. Heck, the concept of The Outworld Investigation Agency and The Special Forces are still today even after this lame reboot.
Darruis and Dairou, two of the most boring characters in the game. Pretty much a civil war between them and Hotaru. If you really want to get technical, the only reason that Hotaru alliance himself with Dragon King is to stop these two guys. Which leads me into the next character Hotaru.
As I mention above, Hotaru was just a foot solider. The only agenda was order at any cost. It is implied that he was happy just being a minion of Dragon King. Its so boring as a character. Baraka wanted more even as a foot solider.
Havik's character I want chaos to rule...... ah ah ah... ok. This adds nothing to the series. Also, it is silly that Havik helps the bad guys when they lose and then help the good guys when they lose. Seriously why is this character even in Mortal Kombat? Why is he remotely popular?
I don't even need to comment on Kira and Kobra. As you stated above just lackeys.
John Tobias did characters and story far better than the current writers. Lets take MK3 and Sub-Zero for example. In MK3 Sub-Zero had three things going for him. The invasion of Earth, the Cyber Ninjas , and Smoke. First, he joined a larger group of heroes, to fight against Kahn's invasion force. He was no longer just an assassin and thief. At this point he became a hero. Second he had to evade three cyber ninjas from a clan he was now marked for death from. Third, he was personal mission to save his friend. You see this is a character that anyone can get behind for an root for, far better than ANY of the 3-D era characters.
The is my point in terms of all the new characters, in the Deadly Alliance, Deception and Armageddon era. None of them really had any break away uniqueness to them. I ask you , how important on a scale of one to ten of ANY of the 3-D characters were?
I am not bashing anyone including NRS for liking these characters. I am just saying that in my opinion, the 3-D characters never had much going for them and they were less important when compared to the classic era characters.
Kotal Kahn, D'Vorah, Ferra/Torr and Cassie Cage to me are better than any of the old 3-D game's new characters , not counting Mortal Kombat 4. When it comes to me, what they DO in relation to the story will define them as worthy additions to MK. More so in their endings.
Example: If in MKX, D'Vorah is just happy being Kotal Kahn's minster she will be lame, if she wins in her ending. What she does with power if she wins in a "what if" ending, will help me like her.
TigerStyle Wrote:
Ashrah's ending DID imply she left the Netherrealm. She even left it in Konquest and had you go back there to find her dagger. How did you think she got to Nitara's realm and then the Edenian crater. If you don't find it to be interesting then whatever but it did go places.
All I said was that there was more going on than you remembered or left out purposefully because it wasn't your thing. I don't think everything needed to be involved with the main threat somehow.
FROST4584 Wrote:
Hotaru was just a foot solider, that didn't want much. Baraka was a foot solider too, but at least he had plans when he beat Shao Kahn. Speaking for myself, I didn't care about Li Mei or Bo Chi Cho, as I explained above.
You just pointed out how pointless Ashrah was in the story. It isn't like Quan Chi was in the game and she had something to settle with him. Her ending didn't do anything for her. Her ending implies she NEVER left the Netherrealm. Her whole arch just involves her killing Noob and just floating away to do it again? How lame. She was just some random character put in the game.Ashrah should have had a better role other than just killing demons.
Again, Seidan and the other group, were pointless to the story of Dragon King. These characters had NO weight in the current story. Nor did their endings expand their roles in a larger story.
Kira and Kobra as Kabal's new trainees were so exciting..... NOT. Again lame characters, that never mattered. At least Frost and Li Mei looked better designed.
Hotaru was just a foot solider, that didn't want much. Baraka was a foot solider too, but at least he had plans when he beat Shao Kahn. Speaking for myself, I didn't care about Li Mei or Bo Chi Cho, as I explained above.
You just pointed out how pointless Ashrah was in the story. It isn't like Quan Chi was in the game and she had something to settle with him. Her ending didn't do anything for her. Her ending implies she NEVER left the Netherrealm. Her whole arch just involves her killing Noob and just floating away to do it again? How lame. She was just some random character put in the game.Ashrah should have had a better role other than just killing demons.
Again, Seidan and the other group, were pointless to the story of Dragon King. These characters had NO weight in the current story. Nor did their endings expand their roles in a larger story.
Kira and Kobra as Kabal's new trainees were so exciting..... NOT. Again lame characters, that never mattered. At least Frost and Li Mei looked better designed.
Ashrah's ending DID imply she left the Netherrealm. She even left it in Konquest and had you go back there to find her dagger. How did you think she got to Nitara's realm and then the Edenian crater. If you don't find it to be interesting then whatever but it did go places.
All I said was that there was more going on than you remembered or left out purposefully because it wasn't your thing. I don't think everything needed to be involved with the main threat somehow.
Ashrah didn't do anything important to the plot of the Deception. She has NO connection to either the good guys nor the bad guys. She is just doing her own little thing to get out of Netherrealm. How can anyone root for this character if she has nothing to do with the overall story? Her own story of killing off demons isn't interesting in the grand theme of Mortal Kombat Deception. Killing random demons is small beans compared to dealing with Dragon King.
Bo Rhi Cho is just an old guy who has done NOTHING in the past. He didn't even help the heros fight in the battle to stop Tsung and Chi. He rescued Li Mei from the soul transfer .... ok, but that is hardly anything in terms of story. His only claim to fame is that he was written to have trained Liu Kang and Kung Lao a little bit. He is just a fat old guy that farts and burps. His role in the MK universe was NEVER clearly defined. He is just some fat old guy , who wants to feel important again. To me , that is not interesting. Which leads me into Li Mei.
Li Mei , a woman who won the Deadly Alliance tournament. Ok first off, we are never told was or who was in this tournament. I refuse to believe she beat Sonya, Kung Lao, and or Sub-Zero. Again, what did she do in Deadly Alliance, other than fight for her village? The Deadly Alliance tricked her and almost transferred her soul. After she is rescued , how is she defined as character? What acts of heroism helped her become just another character, other than better than average design? Again, what role did she play other than just another generic "hero"? She wanted to screw Dragon King ... wow
What John Tobias did so well was define characters through their actions in the overall story of classic era characters. During the classic era, the character endings and bios helped defined them. Like I wrote above, during the "what if " endings of classic era, what the character did with victory and power in either cannon, non cannon, or semi cannon, reflected far more than the current 3-D characters.
The current team of writers, write the characters like each of their endings are pieces of a larger puzzle. When you have enough of the endings you can see the larger picture. The problem is that the larger picture was never interesting or gave way for character development. Also, in many cases the endings just pointed to the next installment of MK , instead of giving these characters resolution within each game.
Ashrah ending - Kills more demons goes to a higher level of Hell , until one day she will be free. How boring in relation to what was going on in Deception.
Darruis and Dairou two character that have NOTHING to do with either Dragon King or any of the events of Deception. Seriously, read their bios AND endings , they don't mention any of the main good guys or bad guys at all. As I said before, they have no big plans for Mortal Kombat. See my post above about Jax and Sonya, how they changed things regardless if they won MK3 or not. Heck, the concept of The Outworld Investigation Agency and The Special Forces are still today even after this lame reboot.
Darruis and Dairou, two of the most boring characters in the game. Pretty much a civil war between them and Hotaru. If you really want to get technical, the only reason that Hotaru alliance himself with Dragon King is to stop these two guys. Which leads me into the next character Hotaru.
As I mention above, Hotaru was just a foot solider. The only agenda was order at any cost. It is implied that he was happy just being a minion of Dragon King. Its so boring as a character. Baraka wanted more even as a foot solider.
Havik's character I want chaos to rule...... ah ah ah... ok. This adds nothing to the series. Also, it is silly that Havik helps the bad guys when they lose and then help the good guys when they lose. Seriously why is this character even in Mortal Kombat? Why is he remotely popular?
I don't even need to comment on Kira and Kobra. As you stated above just lackeys.
John Tobias did characters and story far better than the current writers. Lets take MK3 and Sub-Zero for example. In MK3 Sub-Zero had three things going for him. The invasion of Earth, the Cyber Ninjas , and Smoke. First, he joined a larger group of heroes, to fight against Kahn's invasion force. He was no longer just an assassin and thief. At this point he became a hero. Second he had to evade three cyber ninjas from a clan he was now marked for death from. Third, he was personal mission to save his friend. You see this is a character that anyone can get behind for an root for, far better than ANY of the 3-D era characters.
The is my point in terms of all the new characters, in the Deadly Alliance, Deception and Armageddon era. None of them really had any break away uniqueness to them. I ask you , how important on a scale of one to ten of ANY of the 3-D characters were?
I am not bashing anyone including NRS for liking these characters. I am just saying that in my opinion, the 3-D characters never had much going for them and they were less important when compared to the classic era characters.
Kotal Kahn, D'Vorah, Ferra/Torr and Cassie Cage to me are better than any of the old 3-D game's new characters , not counting Mortal Kombat 4. When it comes to me, what they DO in relation to the story will define them as worthy additions to MK. More so in their endings.
Example: If in MKX, D'Vorah is just happy being Kotal Kahn's minster she will be lame, if she wins in her ending. What she does with power if she wins in a "what if" ending, will help me like her.
1. Because not everyone needed everything to connect to the Dragon King to be interested in it. That was the point.
2. "Bo Rai Cho has done nothing in the past", but then you go on to describe the fact that he trained Liu Kang and Kung Lao and tried to rally people against the Deadly Alliance and then mentioned what he was up to in DA/Deception.
I get it, you don't like these characters, but you keep trying to diminish a lot of what was going on because it just didn't interest you.
3. "Other than fight for her village" what did most of the characters do in the trilogy era other than fight for their realm? They only got short, vague ass biographies too until they started fleshing shit out more. Also her affection for the Dragon King was a twist ending that wasn't ever canon, which just makes you think you either only remember half of this or aren't bothering to really read up on it before posting about it. In the Trilogy games they barely mentioned who fought who in the tournaments in detail ,either except "Liu Kang beat Tsung/Kahn" and "Scorpion killed Bi-Han." Her character changes after being tricked going from wanting to save only her village to feeling a sense of duty for all of Outworld.
I don't even give a shit about Li Mei, I'm just saying you've either got a bad memory or you really just prefer the Trilogy era, which is fine, but you don't have to keep acting like there was nothing there writing wise in the 3D one.
4. Non-canon what if endings reflected better on the characters than a lot of the endings from the 3D era, some of which were entirely canon and added up to a bigger piece of the story, like you said the current team of writers do, but hardly any of MK9's endings were even semi-canon because the game just had a story mode that was re-writing MK1-3 in a concise manner with a few shock value changes. I prefer that over "This character beats Kahn and then a sentence or two about something else happens after."
5. They don't have anything to do with the Dragon King but they're opposing Hotaru, who's helping the Dragon King and Tarkatans because he thinks Onaga will bring order to the universe. That's his thing. Again, more character interaction and relationships than you give it credit for.
6. Havik's motivation is about as short and simple as a lot of characters in the series. Shang Tsung wants souls/power to remain young forever, Kahn wants to merge the realms, Sonya/Jax want to end the black dragon and protect Earthrealm, etc.
People liked Havik for his presentation and execution, which is why they end up liking most of the characters in the series. It's writing has never been amazing, not even now. It's just been very extensive and had a lot of cool concepts.
7. I don't like Kobra or Kira but Kobra was a sicko who wanted to see how his training paid off and started killing gangbangers and then eventually anyone because he grew to like Killing. Kira was selling weapons to terrorists and implied to be the more disciplined of the two. Both were eager to do something more with their clan.
Reptile was a bodyguard who wanted his race back for five games straight and always got fucked over until he was Nitara's bodyguard (oh hey another 3D character relationship, one that actually set up the premise of the next game) and became a vessel for Onaga.
8. Sub-Zero in MK3 had some interesting things going for him sure, but not that many people even get that many storylines going at once in one game. But as a Sub-Zero fan I'll tell you the only reason most people like Sub-Zero is for being a ninja that throws ice. His story isn't amazingly deep either and not even most of the Trilogy characters wound up getting a new motivation like he did after four games because they had to do something different with these characters who'd been around since the beginning doing the same thing.
9. Grading things on a scale is pretty silly but whatever. If you really want to get technical? They were all a ten because every one of them clashing with all their powers was what Argus feared was going to lead to Armageddon.
I gotta bounce because holy shit I put way more thought into video games than any human being should have today but I'm not trying to convince you to like these characters. All I'm saying is the original series had nostalgia in it's favor when people looked back on it comparing the old to the new.
I ain't even saying they need or have to bring these guys back, the reboot doesn't feel like it's the same universe as the original MK anyway, it feels more like an Earth-2 considering some of the different origins and changed properties of things. Maybe the problem here is that I appreciate almost every character in the series for what they are instead of having arbitrary standards or some shit for people to live up to. And Frost if you read all of this shit that ain't a knock on you.
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Mojo6 Wrote:
Oh horseshit. Yes maybe in RETROSPECT but in 1992 those "awful pallete swap ninjas" were popular as fuck and the cheesy blatant kung-fu 90's ridiculousness was part of the games charm.
Oh horseshit. Yes maybe in RETROSPECT but in 1992 those "awful pallete swap ninjas" were popular as fuck and the cheesy blatant kung-fu 90's ridiculousness was part of the games charm.
I was under the impression we were discussing a characters uniqueness and their promise, not their overall popularity which is another argument all to itself which prompts two completely different debates thus you're crossing territories. For instance, a completely shit character from a story/conceptual basis can still be popular based on move-set alone. Hell, a character can be popular purely because people can identify with the fact they were the first character a person randomly picked on a roster. There are way too many factors that go into popularity to determine anything concrete, which is why its easier to debate the core factors of the basis of a characters creation and how unique, different and interesting they are in the grand scheme of things.
On that note, if you actually read what I said, I said the many pallet swaps were unoriginal and uninspired, which was the debate, I never said they were God-awful, especially now that they have actual identities unto their own.
Mojo6 Wrote:
Also, the Ninjas were expanded upon and redesigned as the series advanced so it's not even an accurate context to compare Sub-Zero in 1992 to his more contemporary iteration.
Also, the Ninjas were expanded upon and redesigned as the series advanced so it's not even an accurate context to compare Sub-Zero in 1992 to his more contemporary iteration.
Which thus proves my argument. They had time to develop and grow as characters. The 3D era did not thus it's unfair to compare the two when they keep getting skimped over in favor of a handful of "new" characters that are, conceptually speaking, not new, unique or different at all because they are essentially remakes of characters already established in canon; i.e. Jax, Scorpion, Cage & Blade.
Mojo6 Wrote:
See I like every single one of the new characters and I don't for a minute buy into that "Cassie is just like her parents" or "Jacqui is just like Jax" crap. I fundamentally disagree with that generalization. You act like you've played the fucking game already and are generalizing at a level that makes this whole conversation ridiculous.
See I like every single one of the new characters and I don't for a minute buy into that "Cassie is just like her parents" or "Jacqui is just like Jax" crap. I fundamentally disagree with that generalization. You act like you've played the fucking game already and are generalizing at a level that makes this whole conversation ridiculous.
You're mixing two different arguments again here. Conceptually, yes, they are identical and not very well thought out or unique from a production stand-point. How the character actually handles isn't all dependent on a characters worth. Jacqui is a straight up clone of Jax from a concept point-of-view except for her sex; Special Forces agent, arm enhcancements, seemingly level-headed in nature. That all fits the bill. Same could be said for Takeda; family issues, trained to fight like a Shirai Ryu, seemingly interested in Hellfire abilities (thanks to the comics), uses harpoons/spear like devices. And then there's Cassie who fits straight down to the Special Forces agent with attitude issues.
Mojo6 Wrote:
I LIKE that the series is trying to innovate and push things forward by introducing new characters and not just rehashing the same old shit except now in 1080p.
I LIKE that the series is trying to innovate and push things forward by introducing new characters and not just rehashing the same old shit except now in 1080p.
See above. Gameplay aside and focusing just on the argument of a characters worth based on conceptual ideas; no, these characters are not unique, original and "new." They are re-hashed, second rate versions of a formula already well established and it's lazy character creation. There is absolutely no reason what-so-ever these characters could not have been given things to distinguish themselves as separate entities away from their parents. Does that mean I don't like them? No, I like Cassie from what I've seen of her gameplay but that does not excuse how conceptually boring and uninspired she is as an overall character.
Mojo6 Wrote:
I really am tired of trying to convince diehards of the 3d era that all of those characters are worth salvaging just for salvaging sake. It's a circular argument because it boils down to personal preference. There's some huge shitter characters in there in my opinion and I don't buy the whole "lets just give Kai and Kobra a chance to shine guys!!!!"
I really am tired of trying to convince diehards of the 3d era that all of those characters are worth salvaging just for salvaging sake. It's a circular argument because it boils down to personal preference. There's some huge shitter characters in there in my opinion and I don't buy the whole "lets just give Kai and Kobra a chance to shine guys!!!!"
That's not really the main problem here. The main problem is that even the characters WITH great conceptual basis that are original and unique are still getting skimped over in favor of some characters that are unique, yes, but then also characters who are in essence clones of their predecessors. It makes no logical sense why these characters have been ignored when we know for a fact they are indeed involved in the story of this game. It makes me think that NRS are merely comfortable. They take certain risks but don't like taking too many of them. They like staying inside the boundaries of the established formula and only stray now and again. Is there anything wrong with that? No, not really if that's how they like to operate, that's on them. However, as someone who is a fan of most everything they do, I would like to see more risks and I think they have the creativity if motivated properly, to do some amazing shit with new characters and changing already established characters (like Stryker) for the better.
As for the newbies I pointed out above, how they flesh these guys out in story mode and in the future remains to be seen. Perhaps like the pallet swaps they will find their own identities to separate themselves from their parental figures. But until that day, I stand by my argument.
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Y'all so bitter that we getting new characters over 3D era characters. I would've liked to see Ashrah and Tanya but tough cookies. You just can't be happy we're getting a new game after 4 years? There are some series that take years to get another installment. Not even mentioning the extra content we've been getting from the 2012-2013 interval. Y'all are acting so entitled it's gross.
If you hate it that much, don't buy the game. With as much hype and publicity MKX is getting, NRS won't miss your money.
And don't bring any of that "I'm a fan so I have a right to..." type shit. It's NRS' game in the end. It isn't yours. And y'all are acting like you played the game already. Just shut the fuck up already.
If you hate it that much, don't buy the game. With as much hype and publicity MKX is getting, NRS won't miss your money.
And don't bring any of that "I'm a fan so I have a right to..." type shit. It's NRS' game in the end. It isn't yours. And y'all are acting like you played the game already. Just shut the fuck up already.
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mentalbreakdown Wrote:
Y'all so bitter that we getting new characters over 3D era characters. I would've liked to see Ashrah and Tanya but tough cookies. You just can't be happy we're getting a new game after 4 years? There are some series that take years to get another installment. Not even mentioning the extra content we've been getting from the 2012-2013 interval. Y'all are acting so entitled it's gross.
If you hate it that much, don't buy the game. With as much hype and publicity MKX is getting, NRS won't miss your money.
And don't bring any of that "I'm a fan so I have a right to..." type shit. It's NRS' game in the end. It isn't yours. And y'all are acting like you played the game already. Just shut the fuck up already.
Y'all so bitter that we getting new characters over 3D era characters. I would've liked to see Ashrah and Tanya but tough cookies. You just can't be happy we're getting a new game after 4 years? There are some series that take years to get another installment. Not even mentioning the extra content we've been getting from the 2012-2013 interval. Y'all are acting so entitled it's gross.
If you hate it that much, don't buy the game. With as much hype and publicity MKX is getting, NRS won't miss your money.
And don't bring any of that "I'm a fan so I have a right to..." type shit. It's NRS' game in the end. It isn't yours. And y'all are acting like you played the game already. Just shut the fuck up already.
How many people in this thread are actually doing that? I wasn't a big fan of any of the 3D games except Deception and I like the guys in MKX.
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mentalbreakdown Wrote:
If you hate it that much, don't buy the game. With as much hype and publicity MKX is getting, NRS won't miss your money.
If you hate it that much, don't buy the game. With as much hype and publicity MKX is getting, NRS won't miss your money.
Just wanted to point out how ridiculous this argument is all by itself. We're all fans, we all care. When we see things we think can be done better, we voice our opinions. And guess what, people have different opinions. NRS obviously cares about our opinions because look at the changes they made. Look how they abandoned the 3D plane and went back to 2D. They hear us constantly so if we were all to shut up and either take what they hand us or not buy it at all, who knows where the franchise would be by now.
We've made impacts before, that's how we got the bios for Armageddon (that weren't even completed, by the way). So they obviously listen. Thus how important it is to voice your displeasure if you're not happy with something. Also, if we're discussing roster implications and characters who we think deserve a second shot, that really doesn't have any affect what-so-ever on gameplay so needing to playing the game to discuss this topic is completely irrelevant.
Mojo6 Wrote:
U do see that Johnny and sonya are getting old right?????? They are being used for the new generation. Windice Wrote:
The new characters don't really offer anything interesting. They are just being used to replace there parents in the future. Also mk is never really original in anything. The whole kids thing it's self is a cliche.
The new characters don't really offer anything interesting. They are just being used to replace there parents in the future. Also mk is never really original in anything. The whole kids thing it's self is a cliche.
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Windice Wrote:
U do see that Johnny and sonya are getting old right??????
U do see that Johnny and sonya are getting old right??????
Mojo6 Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
The new characters don't really offer anything interesting. They are just being used to replace there parents in the future. Also mk is never really original in anything. The whole kids thing it's self is a cliche.
The new characters don't really offer anything interesting. They are just being used to replace there parents in the future. Also mk is never really original in anything. The whole kids thing it's self is a cliche.
I wouldn't bet your money on that. I wouldn't put it past these guys to find a way to keep some of these characters young for a while, relatively speaking. They'll never truly let the Trilogy era guys go, regardless of how many years in the canon pass. After all, it is full of magic, gods, the Netherrealm and other means of keeping a character around. lol
KenshiMaster16 Wrote:
I wouldn't bet your money on that. I wouldn't put it past these guys to find a way to keep some of these characters young for a while, relatively speaking. They'll never truly let the Trilogy era guys go, regardless of how many years in the canon pass. After all, it is full of magic, gods, the Netherrealm and other means of keeping a character around. lol
Windice Wrote:
U do see that Johnny and sonya are getting old right??????
U do see that Johnny and sonya are getting old right??????
Mojo6 Wrote:
Windice Wrote:
The new characters don't really offer anything interesting. They are just being used to replace there parents in the future. Also mk is never really original in anything. The whole kids thing it's self is a cliche.
The new characters don't really offer anything interesting. They are just being used to replace there parents in the future. Also mk is never really original in anything. The whole kids thing it's self is a cliche.
I wouldn't bet your money on that. I wouldn't put it past these guys to find a way to keep some of these characters young for a while, relatively speaking. They'll never truly let the Trilogy era guys go, regardless of how many years in the canon pass. After all, it is full of magic, gods, the Netherrealm and other means of keeping a character around. lol
So why do people see these characters needed again????! To add more story to the people who have been in the spotlight for years???? I swear some of these other people need to get there opinions straight.
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Let's not forget that this is barely NRS's 2nd MK game. MK9 retold the events from the first 3 games, so no one should have expected 3D-era characters there. As for MKX, we still don't completely know who is in and who isn't. There might be a few more characters we don't know about that weren't on the leaked list and there's still the 2 DLC characters as well.
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Not to mention they literally laugh in the face of death on a regular basis
I mean c'mon, Shang Tsung's whole schtick is getting younger every time he sucks up a soul
Life finds a way
I mean c'mon, Shang Tsung's whole schtick is getting younger every time he sucks up a soul
Life finds a way
The problem is not that there are newcomers that replace the 3D era characters.
The problem is by the time MKX runs its course, it would be the time again to reboot the franchise and again, shove the same old stale, ground into the ground made-worthless trilogy characters down our throats again.
In order to progress the series it is MANDATORY TO REDUCE the first three game's cast. Something the newbiesd rightnow only have the power to do so in theorem.
Because they will eventually bring kang, etc. out again.
I love Shang Tsung as a character, but he has ran his course. Sure, it would be nice to have him again, but unless they run with some new ideas I rather see him out of the picture before he turns into another Kahn or Quan Chi.
Two characters completely devoid of actual merit due to overuse.
The problem is by the time MKX runs its course, it would be the time again to reboot the franchise and again, shove the same old stale, ground into the ground made-worthless trilogy characters down our throats again.
In order to progress the series it is MANDATORY TO REDUCE the first three game's cast. Something the newbiesd rightnow only have the power to do so in theorem.
Because they will eventually bring kang, etc. out again.
I love Shang Tsung as a character, but he has ran his course. Sure, it would be nice to have him again, but unless they run with some new ideas I rather see him out of the picture before he turns into another Kahn or Quan Chi.
Two characters completely devoid of actual merit due to overuse.
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