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RazorsEdge701
06/07/2014 03:00 AM (UTC)
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Mojo6 Wrote:
But don't act like MK9 isn't a retelling / reinterpretation of the MK 1 - 3 story like it's such a huge departure as to be unrecognizable.


I was about to argue this point, but...

Mojo6 Wrote:
And you know what, maybe it was for you since you obviously know continuity nuances like the back of your hand.


See...I appreciate you realizing at the end there that yeah, for me it really is unrecognizeable. At least, everything after the Tarkatans attack the temple is. Before that they were doing okay most of the time. (Most, not all...but still.)

But that last part, implying that only someone who was a real deep-digging MK scholar would notice the differences...I don't get that. I mean, besides the fact that everyone here is aware of how the Sub-Zero and Kitana/Mileena stories, which make up the majority of MK2's plot, are in no way the same, I think an even bigger divergence is that, y'know, not a single one of these scenes happened in the game. Not ONE! (Well okay...here's me being reasonable: the text in the 2nd and 4th panels is still technically true and you can't expect a shot of a giant Kahn and Sindel pointing at a tiny planet Earth...)

That's not minutae. That's the ENTIRE MK3 story. And it plays over and over and over again when the arcade machine idles, so like...I'm pretty sure everyone who's seen an MK3 cabinet has seen those.

Is being old enough to remember arcades a rarity now? Because I understand that's actually a very real possibility in the year 2014, I just...assumed I had more age-group peers in this particular community. If the teenagers for whom MK9 is their first time encountering the original trilogy is the dominant demographic on MKO, that's a whole thing I hadn't considered I suppose.

And see...what you've done here is once again make me spend a lot of time talking about comparisons between the old timeline and the new timeline. And every time I do that, people act like that's the only thing I care about and the only reason I don't like MK9.

But it's NOT the most important thing. I have WAY bigger problems with Story Mode on its OWN merits, in the way it portrays characters, failing to extablish who they are and what they want properly, failing to have them develop along any kind of arc of growth, and failing to make basic sense in various scenes.

As for the rest of your points...okay, I liked some of those scenes too. But...those are such brief moments. The dumb stuff takes up way more screentime.
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.
06/07/2014 03:30 AM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
But "you have your opinion and I have mine" AVOIDS deep thought and intellectual conversation and the gap between us continues to exist. I want to UNDERSTAND WHY you have your opinion. The reason I argue the way I do is no one yet has ever helped me UNDERSTAND their point of view, which just makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills whenever I encounter someone who defends it. Nobody answers my complaints, they just talk in vague generalizations or give up entirely.



Regardless of what I tell you, you will not be willing to conceive it, or even attempt to, as you have already made up your mind.

However, I'll take a bite here, and humor you.

1. Describe the characters without referring to their physical appearances or occupations.

This here is the prime example of how you will not be willing to conceive what I tell you. I will list each character shown in the story and to my best ability identify who they are. I doubt you will take it in.

Raiden - good-natured, but a victim to anxiety. He sees the potential good in many, but worries too much about the evil lying within most.

Shao Kahn - viciously power hungry, but equally ambitious. He does not allow failure to disrupt his intentions, but the occurrence of failure fuels his temper, which is his greatest weakness.

Liu Kang - highly self-righteous. His position as a warrior destined to save Earthrealm leads him to be pretentious at times, easily judgmental towards anyone who does not follow his agenda. However, he does have a good heart, and he ultimately means well.

Johnny Cage - cocky, but kind. He sees himself as 'the best of the best,' but his arrogance does not overshadow his generosity as a warrior. He believes in good, and is always willing to do good when he can.

Sonya - self-righteous, but moderately well-tempered. Though strong in her beliefs, she can hold her own mentally and emotionally in most situations. She does not break easily; only in moments of dire stress does she have the potential to become vulnerable.

Reptile - vicious and obedient. He follows orders without question, and seeks out to obtain his goals by any means necessary.

Baraka - dangerous by nature; loyal. He believes greatly in the virtue of loyalty, and he shuns anyone he feels does not carry that virtue. He is instinctively dangerous and is never hesitant to use extreme violence, whatever the reason.

Shang Tsung - analytical, but overly curious.He sees the universe as his personal experimental grounds. He knows the ways to get what he desires, but his applications can be rougher than he visualizes. His excessive curiosity can get the best of him. He wants to know everything, do anything, and play with all things. He is the pivotal example of a mad scientist.

Kitana - regal, but full of pride. She is sturdy woman with great poise and majesty, but she also lavishes in her own pride. She feels she is above most, if not all, due to her royal status. However, she ultimately means well to serve her realm, be it Outworld, prior to knowing her past, or Edenia, following the learning of her past.

Jade - loyal, but overprotective. She is the typical pushy big sister. She means very well and loves hard, but she feels she must 'keep in check' those she loves. Her desire to keep others from doing wrong can be her undoing.

Kung Lao - immature and excessive. He desperately wants to prove his worth as a great person and warrior, but he does not know how to compose himself. He behaves very immaturely, defying orders and absorbing any attention he gets. He lacks mental and emotional composure.

Jax - well reserved. He is a highly mature and well-mannered man. His demeanor is nothing short of honorable, and he lives his life for the sake of bringing justice.

Cyrax - valiant and good-natured. He believes strongly in doing what is right. His motives of action point more towards the better of others than of himself. However, he belief in doing what is right can lead him to take risks he may not need take.

Sektor - cunning and determined. Though loyal to his kind, to an extent, he is hell-bound to his own agenda. He has particular endeavors in mind and does not like it when others obstruct them. He aims to see out his visions, one way or another.

Sheeva - brutal, but serving. She cares little about how easily she can destroy, but all shes does is out of service to another. She aims to serve well, and does so with no rebuttal.

Nightwolf - calm and deeply reserved. He is mentally and emotionally unshakeable. He has calmed his heart, bringing about eternal inner peace. He believes all people must learn to have inner peace, and that nothing should prevent one from being able to take control of their life. His temperance is matched by no one.

Scorpion - deeply anguished. He is tortured by loss and misfortune. He struggles to understand the value of mercy and forgiveness, and thinks mostly of avenging those he loves and care for. He is obsessed with the concept of retribution, and detests anyone who opposes it.

Bi-Han (Sub-Zero) - proud and strong. He is strong in his values but ultimately good-natured. He does not believe in lies or deception, and seeks to do things the honorable way.

Bi-Han (Noob Saibot) - bloodthirsty. He seeks to cause pain and claim lives. He has no humanly virtues whatsoever.

Kuai Lang - kindhearted and loyal. He believes in the law of good, especially when it comes to those close to him. He has a great deal of honor for his customs and vows to uphold them. His one flaw may be caring too much.

Smoke - Loyal, but impulsive. He is the typical good friend and confidant. He, much like his friend Kuai Lang, has great honor for his customs. However, he lacks the will to impose them responsibly. He can easily act on impulse and easily get himself into trouble he could have otherwise easily avoided.

Kano - selfish. He believes in self and self only. Even with his clan, he is his number one priority. He values money and does whatever is needed to get it. He cares absolutely nothing for the law, willing to commit any and every crime in the book, as long as it gets him paid.

Stryker - mentally structured and fearless. He is virtually the average human being, but possesses a great deal of calm and restraint. He holds his own well in tough situations and lacks any form of fear. He sticks to his job and will see it out to the end.

Kabal - unsure, but good-natured. He, after turning away from a life of crime, believes in good. However, he lacks true mental standing. He easily second guesses himself, and he worries more than he should. He always means well, but his lack of composure could turn on him.

Ermac - monotone, but highly dangerous. He is completely void of emotion, but is a force to be reckoned with. He uses full force at all times, lacking the concepts of mercy or minimality.

Quan Chi - deeply cunning, witty, and self-indulged. He is a great being of persuasion. He knows how to convince others to follow his will, which is in the end is number one intent. He has a well-thought out agenda he seeks to mold. However, he may be a bit too focused on himself.

Mileena - childish and playful, but dangerous. She is mentally juvenile and seeks to do nothing but have fun. She moves around in search of a playmate, but her idea of having a good time is bizarre, to say the least. despite her childish nature, she has a great deal of confidence in her abilities and is incapable of being discouraged.

Sindel - corrupted; initially good-natured. Who she is truly is mostly unknown. Prior to her death, she may have been a kind and noble person. However, her corruption has led her to become obsessed with serving her superior. In this phase, she is highly pretentious and thinks little of everyone, excluding her superior.


2. Why does Liu Kang look mad at Johnny when Johnny refuses to kill?

Liu Kang believes too deeply in his quest to save Earthrealm. He does not want anyone disrupting his agenda, even his allies.

3. How come Shang repeatedly lets people who've already been eliminated keep being in matches? And how come Raiden NEVER complains about any of the cheating?

No rules regarding the tournament have ever been mentioned, so there is no proof that those who have been defeated are not allowed to fight again.

4. Why doesn't Shang ever put Jax back in the dungeon after he prevents their escape? If he doesn't mind letting them walk around and having nothing to blackmail Sonya into fighting with, then why did he lock Jax up in the first place?

As stated, Shang Tsung takes pleasure in the sight of combat. He selects participants at will, ironically, and cares not whether or not they agree to his decision. As for Jax's imprisonment, while it has not been explained, considering the target, can be implied that he came to apprehend Kano.

5. If Raiden has healing powers, how come he never uses them again? Like, say, when he watches Kitana die SLOWLY?

Considering her condition, and how quickly she died following her speaking to Liu Kang, it seems evident he could not have healed her fast enough.

6. Why is a monk play-fighting and flirting with a girl who's trying to kill him? What's Liu attracted to about Kitana, exactly? Am I supposed to believe he's just a horndog appreciating her T&A?

You are merely perceiving it him to be play-fighting and flirting. Your perception is not law.

7. Why does Liu have to fight Shang after he beats Goro if Goro was the title-holder?

Liu Kang declared that his final fight was with Shang Tsung, and Shang Tsung accepted.

8. After Shang is beaten, the bad guys all just CALMLY WALK away through the portal. Why do Sonya and Jax just let Kano go? They're in the same room. They're watching him leave! He's the ONLY reason they came!

The laws of Mortal Kombat must be upheld. The bad guys lost, and they must concede, as Shang Tsung declared. Sonya and Jax have previously vowed to a new mission, to help Raiden and his quest to save Earthrealm. Kano was easily eclipsed by this.



Your questions were horrible. You clearly did not pay any attention to the story. You simply dreaded on the flaws you think you found. Had you actually payed attention to the dialogue, facial expressions, and positions of circumstance, you would've been far more in tune with the story. Instead, you simply passed judgment on the 'errors' you've found.

Again, I doubt you will even attempt to conceive anything in this post. In fact, I bet you will continue to combat me. It's what you do. However, you will only continue to make yourself look foolish. Quit while you're ahead.
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RazorsEdge701
06/07/2014 04:22 AM (UTC)
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Riyakou Wrote:
Reptile - vicious and obedient. He follows orders without question, and seeks out to obtain his goals by any means necessary.


When?

Riyakou Wrote:
Cyrax - valiant and good-natured. He believes strongly in doing what is right.


Then why'd he join an assassin clan?

Riyakou Wrote:
Bi-Han (Sub-Zero) - proud and strong. He is strong in his values but ultimately good-natured. He does not believe in lies or deception, and seeks to do things the honorable way.


You made every word of that up except "proud".

Riyakou Wrote:
Kuai Lang - kindhearted and loyal. He believes in the law of good, especially when it comes to those close to him. He has a great deal of honor for his customs and vows to uphold them. His one flaw may be caring too much.


When in MK9 is he anything like that? I can maybe give you "honor for his customs" if by "customs" you mean "brother", but he's never kindhearted or "believes in the law of good" in this story. If anything, he's kind of a selfish, impatient jerk until he's awakened from being a robot, and then he's just remorseful about helping someone conquer his world.

Riyakou Wrote:
Smoke - Loyal, but impulsive


I'm going to accept that you believe this, but I'm not convinced those scenes were actual characterization and not just MKvsDCU-style "we need good guys to fight each other over a misunderstanding" writing where the character in the scene doesn't really matter, it would have happened the same with anyone in his place, even Superman and Wonder Woman.

Riyakou Wrote:
Kabal - He easily second guesses himself, and he worries more than he should.


Wat.

No really. The hell did you get that from? The scenes before he's burned where he's afraid of the monsters?

Being afraid of monsters is "worrying more than you should?!"

I would say he worried exactly the right amount since Reptile one-shotted him with just his tongue and the next time he tried to fight a monster, he got burned to near-death without firing a single bullet.

Riyakou Wrote:
Liu Kang believes too deeply in his quest to save Earthrealm. He does not want anyone disrupting his agenda, even his allies.


What does that have to do with Johnny refusing to perform a Fatality, exactly?

Riyakou Wrote:
No rules regarding the tournament have ever been mentioned, so there is no proof that those who have been defeated are not allowed to fight again.


Loss resulting in elimination from the competition is mentioned numerous times in reference to Earthrealm warriors. For example, Cyrax's entire job is to beat Johnny Cage so that he'll be out of the tournament.

Riyakou Wrote:
As stated, Shang Tsung takes pleasure in the sight of combat. He selects participants at will, ironically, and cares not whether or not they agree to his decision.


What does that have to do with Jax, who never fights during MK1?

Riyakou Wrote:
As for Jax's imprisonment, while it has not been explained, considering the target, can be implied that he came to apprehend Kano.


That doesn't answer my question. Why does Shang not try to put Jax back in the dungeon after he blows up the helicopter?

I mean Johnny and Raiden didn't show up to help them out until AFTER Shang and Kano walked away, so it can't be "because their friends would have protected them".

Riyakou Wrote:
Considering her condition, and how quickly she died following her speaking to Liu Kang, it seems evident he could not have healed her fast enough.


Y'know what, I see an argument stemming from this one about how I'm "just being difficult" or "aren't willing to be convinced by anything" or something along those lines.

But all the same, I don't believe that answer is true. I believe if the developers had remembered they wrote Raiden healing Jax, and weren't of a mind to ignore logic for the sake of "Kitana HAS to die because that's the plot we want", Raiden had enough time to do what he did to Jax.

Riyakou Wrote:
You are merely perceiving it him to be play-fighting and flirting. Your perception is not law.


Really? Then what do YOU think Liu was thinking/feeling in the scene where he meets Kitana for the first time?

Riyakou Wrote:
Liu Kang declared that his final fight was with Shang Tsung, and Shang Tsung accepted.


Shang stood up from his throne and walked into fighting position before Liu spoke. "Only one fight remains" was an expectation, not a challenge.

Riyakou Wrote:
The laws of Mortal Kombat must be upheld. The bad guys lost, and they must concede, as Shang Tsung declared. Sonya and Jax have previously vowed to a new mission, to help Raiden and his quest to save Earthrealm. Kano was easily eclipsed by this.


That answer doesn't make sense. If there is an official start and end to the tournament, that end would have been when the gold light from the Elder Gods shined down on Liu.

And at the time, everyone believed Earthrealm WAS safe because they won the tournament and didn't know there would be more to the story. Any official vow Sonya and Jax had allegedly made (which NEVER occurred on screen, you're making it up) to put their manhunt for Kano on pause, they would have believed came to an end when the tournament did.

Sonya and Kano had long before then stopped being part of the tournament and Jax was NEVER a member of the tournament. Also, Kano is a citizen of Earthrealm subject to its laws, not part of Shang's team, and Sonya and Jax are agents of those laws there to rightfully arrest a criminal. That has nothing to do with Mortal Kombat or with the oversight of the Gods.

And you used the exact words "no rules regarding the tournament have ever been mentioned" as the answer to an earlier question. You are now contradicting yourself.

So...there are rules, but only the ones YOU make up?

Riyakou Wrote:
Your questions were horrible. You clearly did not pay any attention to the story.


Yes, that must be why most of your answers don't solve my questions. Because I'm the one who didn't pay attention and the questions were bad.

I don't mean to be insulting, but you're clearly doing it first.
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daryui
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06/07/2014 04:25 AM (UTC)
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I don't see Liu Kang as self-righteous.
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RazorsEdge701
06/07/2014 04:30 AM (UTC)
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daryui Wrote:
I don't see Liu Kang as self-righteous.


He's clearly referring to the ONE scene at the very beginning where he asks Raiden "what do you see in him?" about Cage.

That's why I didn't argue with that one. "Pretentious" is a pretty strong word for a guy who looks at a buffoon and sees a buffoon, though.
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daryui
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06/07/2014 04:35 AM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
daryui Wrote:
I don't see Liu Kang as self-righteous.


He's clearly referring to the ONE scene at the very beginning where he asks Raiden "what do you see in him?" about Cage.

That's why I didn't argue with that one. "Pretentious" is a pretty strong word for a guy who looks at a buffoon and sees a buffoon, though.


I would've done the same had I been in his shoes. Edit: would work out nicely in a fan fic...wink
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Rockchalk5477
06/07/2014 04:38 AM (UTC)
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It always bugged me that Kuai Liang, Smoke, Cyrax, and (I guess) Sektor were so upset by Bi-Han being murdered, while he was competing in a death tournament, working against his own realm (which he previously defended in Mythologies.) Is it not okay that an assassin who killed another assassin (who begged for his life) is then killed by the wraith of the very person he murdered? The Lin Kuei really seem like poor sports in MK9; "we can kill you, but don't you dare kill us!"

How did the Lin Kuei presence work, anyway, in an official tournament?
Bo' Rai Cho couldn't fight in official tournaments, because his victories would count for Outworld, so why do Earthrealmers and Netherrealmers get to help Outworld? (If they had, at least, had all the Lin Kuei - Earthrealmer fights occur in privacy, then it wouldn't be such a glaring problem.)
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RazorsEdge701
06/07/2014 04:39 AM (UTC)
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daryui Wrote:
would work out nicely in a fan fic...wink

Not any fanfic I'd write or read. Liu and Johnny met on the fuckin' boat, it's a little too late to be surprised by how he acts in the courtyard.
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RazorsEdge701
06/07/2014 04:45 AM (UTC)
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Rockchalk5477 Wrote:
How did the Lin Kuei presence work, anyway, in an official tournament?
Bo' Rai Cho couldn't fight in official tournaments, because his victories would count for Outworld, so why do Earthrealmers and Netherrealmers get to help Outworld?


Presumably, they would have fought only until all they beat all the good guys, then forfeit so that they'd never be in the final fight and what realm they represent doesn't matter?

I dunno, I guess that makes sense for the Lin Kuei, they're from Earth, they can fight in an Earth vs. Outworld tournament, it doesn't really matter who they're fighting for as long as they don't win the title match...but the gold light thing proves that the Elder Gods are WATCHING the tournament. Why would they let someone from an uninvolved third realm even put his name on the roster? Oh right, they don't do anything. They don't even enforce their own rules, because now Sindel isn't someone who killed herself to escape forced marriage, she's the only reason Kahn can't ignore the tournament and walk through portals...

Stupid fuckin' Quan Chi shoehorning...
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Rockchalk5477
06/07/2014 04:52 AM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Presumably, they would have fought only until all they beat all the good guys, then forfeit so that they'd never be in the final fight and what realm they represent doesn't matter?

I guess that's the best explanation possible for such a stupid alteration to the MK1 tournament.
Why would they let someone from an uninvolved third realm even put his name on the roster?
Stupid fuckin' Quan Chi shoehorning...

My thoughts exactly.
Icebaby Wrote:
Rockchalk5477 Wrote:
The Lin Kuei really seem like poor sports in MK9; "we can kill you, but don't you dare kill us!"


That's how it was like in my gym class... just without the killing.

I would certainly hope so!
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daryui
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06/07/2014 04:53 AM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
daryui Wrote:
would work out nicely in a fan fic...wink


Not any fanfic I'd write or read. Liu and Johnny met on the fuckin' boat, it's a little too late to be surprised by how he acts in the courtyard.


Lol. At least it is not as bad as one of the most powerful characters getting defeated by a person with only guns..partially why that is my least favorite chapter.

He took on 5 at once and was more than a match for them ...but loses to that cop.
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Icebaby
06/07/2014 04:55 AM (UTC)
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Rockchalk5477 Wrote:
The Lin Kuei really seem like poor sports in MK9; "we can kill you, but don't you dare kill us!"


That's how it was like in my gym class... just without the killing.

What I want in story mode is just, something that is not going to disappoint me in the end. 2011's story really didn't do that for me, (one of the few that actually LIKED the story, and really has nothing to complain about it) and I feel that these guys are just going to continue doing whatever they feel is what they want.

I don't want to complain that much, in fact, I don't want to do the same thing I did three years ago by asking a mod if it was all right for me to make a sticky "complaint" thread. I know for a fact that if there was a rant thread made already, majority of the crap that will flood in there will be the nonstop issue of who the Sub-Zero is in the trailer. No one can wait two more days (or one more since it's almost midnight here) for E3 to get answers. And to be honest, I really hope that this is just a trailer to show that there is a Mortal Kombat game, and that it has absolutely nothing to do with the actual story.

And yeah, I sorta carried off there, but that's what I want form story mode. Something that not too many people are gonna complain about. I know that there's going to be people that won't like it and some that are, but I don't want a giant fuss about stuff that's really not in their control to change or shouldn't be so bad that it makes people just go out and leave.
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RazorsEdge701
06/07/2014 04:59 AM (UTC)
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Icebaby Wrote:
No one can wait two more days (or one more since it's almost midnight here) for E3 to get answers.


Er...I think E3 starts in three days, after midnight.

June 10th, right?
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_MKX_
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06/07/2014 05:46 AM (UTC)
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I just hope they do something interesting with the mode. I feel like after MK vs DC, MK9, and Injustice we are starting to get the same old with the structure and all the chapters and random meaningless fights. It's getting predictable and that is never good imo

You know what would be different? If they just did away with all the fights and straight up did a two hour movie. One of the biggest problems with they way they have it now is that every scene ends in a fight which progresses the mode. This is predictable and as we've seen really forced at times.

I propose in the main menu there will be a selection simply titled "Story". Every time you beat arcade mode you unlock ten minutes of the story. For example if the story is two hours you have to beat the game 12 times in order to watch the whole film. I guess they could do 5 minutes as that requires you beat it with more of the roster, or split it up where you need to beat it with everyone before you get to watch the final scene.

Also, I'm not proposing eliminating the endings either. Character endings would still be a thing. The unlocked movie would not play after you beat the ladder. You would have to enter the story selection in the main menu and go from there to continue your story.

That's just one idea to spice it up a bit. There are other things they can do with the existing format to keep it interesting. Anyway, I'm looking forward to see what is revealed about the Story Mode at E3.




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Charybdis
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"Pray for the Kahn's Mercy"

06/07/2014 08:00 AM (UTC)
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@Razor, you make good points and I agree with you by and large, but if Riyakou enjoyed the story then why try to ruin it for him and foist upon him your opinion? I wasn't happy with it at all, though I enjoyed certain aspects, but if he liked, he liked it. Some people like things that others dont, you cant force him to see it your way
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b-don
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Thanks to Minion for the Sig!

06/07/2014 09:31 AM (UTC)
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I want Scorpion to kill Quan Chi. I wanted to see Scorpion be an ally to Sub-Zero(his umk3 story i believe) in mk(9),but after the cyber sub leak that didn't happen. I really want them to give scorpion something new to do besides failed revenge,since he's my favorite. I don't want him to be the main character/hero though,that would'nt go over well with most fans. But besides that....hmm.....I guess I want some things to be better explained,like how raiden couldn't save lieu,or the other warriors,with his healing magic. Or how ermac never used his limb explosion..... magic...thing.. on anyone besides Jax(as explained in a TBFP video). So yeah,just things being tighter,without so many plot holes.
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m0s3pH
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Mortal Kombat Online - Community Manager

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06/07/2014 12:40 PM (UTC)
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Charybdis Wrote:
@Razor, you make good points and I agree with you by and large, but if Riyakou enjoyed the story then why try to ruin it for him and foist upon him your opinion? I wasn't happy with it at all, though I enjoyed certain aspects, but if he liked, he liked it. Some people like things that others dont, you cant force him to see it your way


I think there's a disconnect here regarding what are and are not subjective aspects with the story. Liking how a character is portrayed, such as their appearance, background, development, et cetera is subjective. Understanding that said character's defining elements (i.e. faction) can preclude them from either possessing certain personality traits or looking silly when their actions seem to lack common sense is not. That's where there's a gap in comprehension here.

If you want to like the story of the last game for whatever reason, that's your prerogative. You're certainly entitled to your opinion on it. However, it is a fact that there are glaring plotholes, inconsistencies, and more than a fair share of general nonsense coming from many characters on both sides of the fence.

Whether that ruins your enjoyment is up to you.
I hope they are going for longer dialogue between characters, i mean i really enjoyed that! Just sit back for a little and let the story unfold!
It was quite lenghty but i wouldn't mind if they made it longer! Enjoyed the MK9 story and also will most certainly enjoy MKX's story
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.
06/07/2014 12:53 PM (UTC)
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m0s3pH Wrote:
Charybdis Wrote:
@Razor, you make good points and I agree with you by and large, but if Riyakou enjoyed the story then why try to ruin it for him and foist upon him your opinion? I wasn't happy with it at all, though I enjoyed certain aspects, but if he liked, he liked it. Some people like things that others dont, you cant force him to see it your way


I think there's a disconnect here regarding what are and are not subjective aspects with the story. Liking how a character is portrayed, such as their appearance, background, development, et cetera is subjective. Understanding that said character's defining elements (i.e. faction) can preclude them from either possessing certain personality traits or looking silly when their actions seem to lack common sense is not. That's where there's a gap in comprehension here.

If you want to like the story of the last game for whatever reason, that's your prerogative. You're certainly entitled to your opinion on it. However, it is a fact that there are glaring plotholes, inconsistencies, and more than a fair share of general nonsense coming from many characters on both sides of the fence.

Whether that ruins your enjoyment is up to you.


This issue isn't whether or not there are errors in the story; we all agree that there are.

The issue is whether or not the story is good in spite of errors. In the end, it all boils down to opinion. Neither of us can refute the other's opinion, but we do have the right to oppose it. I feel the story is ultimately well written. You are completely free to feel I am an idiot. lol
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m0s3pH
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Mortal Kombat Online - Community Manager

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Signature and avatar by ThePredator151

06/07/2014 02:12 PM (UTC)
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Riyakou Wrote:
m0s3pH Wrote:
Charybdis Wrote:
@Razor, you make good points and I agree with you by and large, but if Riyakou enjoyed the story then why try to ruin it for him and foist upon him your opinion? I wasn't happy with it at all, though I enjoyed certain aspects, but if he liked, he liked it. Some people like things that others dont, you cant force him to see it your way


I think there's a disconnect here regarding what are and are not subjective aspects with the story. Liking how a character is portrayed, such as their appearance, background, development, et cetera is subjective. Understanding that said character's defining elements (i.e. faction) can preclude them from either possessing certain personality traits or looking silly when their actions seem to lack common sense is not. That's where there's a gap in comprehension here.

If you want to like the story of the last game for whatever reason, that's your prerogative. You're certainly entitled to your opinion on it. However, it is a fact that there are glaring plotholes, inconsistencies, and more than a fair share of general nonsense coming from many characters on both sides of the fence.

Whether that ruins your enjoyment is up to you.


This issue isn't whether or not there are errors in the story; we all agree that there are.

The issue is whether or not the story is good in spite of errors. In the end, it all boils down to opinion. Neither of us can refute the other's opinion, but we do have the right to oppose it. I feel the story is ultimately well written. You are completely free to feel I am an idiot. lol


Right, the last line of my post covers what you've said in yours. I believe that one's own enjoyment of the story is based in how one prioritizes the respective elements. Gameplay, characters, dialogue, settings, backdrop, and more all feed into that. If you, for the sake of argument, valued gameplay above character development, you probably loved the story mode because it's a solid fighting game and not many characters receive proper development.

What I'm not sure you're understanding though is that when it comes to storytelling, there are a certain set of criteria that a piece has to meet to be considered "well-written." That much of the discussion really isn't opinion-based. Here is a standard list of things that should be present. There are certain pieces of the list that the last game's story violated more than others. I'd like to touch on one of those quickly, and it's regarding protagonists.

The goal when creating a protagonist for a story is that you want to construct a character who people will root for. In the context of MK9's story, Raiden (not Liu Kang) is very clearly meant to be the protagonist. The overarching focus of the story is the timeline, which as we all know is depicted by Raiden's amulet. The entire premise of the story is centered around Raiden being horribly naive, thinking he can just go around fucking with the timeline and all will turn out well in the end. Where he fails in his role as the protagonist is that his constant blunders make him a generally unlikable character. This wouldn't be the case had he overcome his shortcomings, but nope, he's a bumbling idiot right to the bitter end. The losses that he directly and indirectly caused to Earthrealm have left it with the odds heavily in favor of Shinnok going forward. Shao Kahn might be dead, and Outworld remains separate from Earthrealm, but that's because the Elder Gods stepped in. I'm probably meandering from what I set out to say, but the basic gist here is that Raiden started as an idiot, and he ended as an idiot. He never learned the error of his ways and it's left him worse off than he was at the same point in the original timeline. You'd think that after getting past the threats that Shang and Kahn posed earlier on that Raiden would've actually developed into a smarter, more judicious character. Instead, he stagnates, and by the time he's up against Kahn again he indirectly killed damn near everyone else by abandoning them to appeal to the Elder Gods... who would've intervened anyway because merging of realms is a violation of their laws. That's not a character who anyone should root for. You can't have a well-written story without a worthy protagonist, and Raiden is far from that.
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06/07/2014 02:30 PM (UTC)
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I had to learn that canon in high school, and while it is sensible, it is not law.

Yes, I do feel that some characters should have been better explored in the story, Jade and Baraka particularly.

In actually, everything on the list is met. The premise, that loss and sacrifice are inevitable, could have been better established towards the end of the story, however. Nonetheless, the premise can be seen. In fact, Shao Kahn having to win in order for Earthrealm to be saved was perhaps the most evident sign of the premise.

I think the most noticeable errors are the lack of a well-expressed premise and the inequality of conflict among characters. However, neither kept me from understanding and enjoying the story.
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KenshiMaster16
06/07/2014 04:03 PM (UTC)
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Were there tons of flaws in MK9's storymode that bugged me to death? Yes, far too many to count. Did I still enjoy the aspect of playing through MK1-MK3 done as a story-mode? An updated re-telling as it were despite its many, many flaws? Yes.

They were never going to be able to cover everything, or even half or everything they should have covered, in one game covering three. And I never even thought for one second, nor was I expecting, that they would. They would cover what was needed to pass and that would be that. Maybe now they can with next-gen capabilities but who really knows at this point, we haven't really seen much in terms of capability because there haven't been that many 'next-gen' games out on the market yet that are really pushing those new boundaries.

We're never going to get a fully fleshed story because Mortal Kombat is never going to be a Last Of Us, an Assassin's Creed, a Grand Theft Auto, a Bioshock. It pains me to say that but I know it's never going to happen. However, with that said, there is still a certain level of writing that NRS COULD hit the mark for but haven't fully gotten there yet. They could do better with their limitations, yes, and I hope with this game they get to do so instead of making an even bigger hole with multiple universes if that is in fact where we go.

However, some of the comments here have irked me. One in particular is one example being given by Razor I believe about how easily Kano and Shang could've taken out Smoke with rocket launchers and how that defies logic; if the entire story mode would've been done in that line of thought, it easily would've been a very quick game because logically, instead of boasting, Shao Kahn would've easily slain Raiden before he could've ever sent himself back in time to stop anything. Or the fact that Scorpion is undead and could've slain every hero there because of the fact he IS undead and Quan Chi could just keep resurrecting him over and over again.

As die-hard fans, I see all the points here and to a certain degree, they're all mostly valid from everybody but at some point, you have to just sit back and accept that this IS a fighting game, it doesn't shift copies because of its storymode and most importantly it's a game with characters who have magical abilities and god-like characters who should be able to, with just the flick of a finger, take out annoyances like Shang Tsung and just be done with it within' several seconds. But what good is a story if it's just THAT easy?
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RazorsEdge701
06/07/2014 04:37 PM (UTC)
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m0s3pH Wrote:
the basic gist here is that Raiden started as an idiot, and he ended as an idiot. He never learned the error of his ways and it's left him worse off than he was at the same point in the original timeline. You'd think that after getting past the threats that Shang and Kahn posed earlier on that Raiden would've actually developed into a smarter, more judicious character. Instead, he stagnates


Actually, he doesn't stagnate, he GETS WORSE.

Raiden starts the story very cautious and wise, gives good advice to his allies, and tries to AVOID making any unnecessary changes to the timeline because he rightly fears the butterfly effects.

But from the moment he sees Smoke on, he starts trying to change EVERY SINGLE VISION he has, no longer remembering to regard the consequences.
By the invasion, he's degenerated into a panicking mess who zones out in the middle of conversations because he really is losing his mind, and doesn't even remember how much lightning it takes to kill a man.

So he does kinda have an arc, but you're damn sure right it ain't one that makes him a likeable protagonist the audience is rooting for.
I don't think the moral of MK9 was supposed to be "Liu Kang was right", but that's what I fuckin' took away at the end of the game.
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T-rex
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06/07/2014 05:21 PM (UTC)
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Select reposts from the old thread, because apparently it's still relevant.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Liu Kang - Lost all faith in his religion and burned to death, probably a Hellslave.

I'd actually count him as an improvement. Liu was a very compelling character in Story Mode and, as far as I can tell, he actually turned a lot of LE TURKEY NOISES xDD haters around, so that's probably the best compliment to NRS.

Not to mention that the God Kang plot point is looking mighty interesting should they decide to follow up on it.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Kano - Pretty much the same, if not slightly worse because he became General of Outworld in the old one.

On one hand, having him peddle arms to the Outworld forces and seeing Tarkatans dicking around with AKs and RPGs was hilariously awesome.

I also really liked how he saved Kabal. Especially considering that Kano was the last person I expected to have any genuine character development in this game. I also liked the little bit in his bio about him having "military training".

On the other hand, I'm really rustled about the fact that he never got his climactic duel with Sonya on top of the skyscraper.

I'm also kinda torn on NRS basically giving him Hsu Hao's backstory. On one hand, it does give him more to do, but on the other hand, it basically writes Hsu Hao out of future games, which may be a positive depending on who you're talking to. I still say he could have potential if they completely rebooted his character, Stryker-style, but that's just me.

So let's be really generous and write him down as a plus.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Sonya - Grieving, has no Jax to create the OIA for her (she can't do it, he was the brains), might lose her mind and quit the army to follow (a possible hallucination of) her dad's ghost.

Yeah, unless her daddy issues are a setup for her father showing up as one of the new characters (which would be fucking rad), I'm really not sure where they were going with that subplot. I somewhat enjoy how it's implied that she blames herself for the deaths of her subordinates because she was the one who trusted Kano. A subtle change for the "HE KILLED MY PARTNER" in the OT. Not bad.

Let's count her as a lateral move, no better and no worse.

Also

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
she can't do it, he was the brains

Lol'd because it's true.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Reptile - Pretty much the same

On the plus side, he is one of the few people who survived MK9, and both of his masters are dead, so if rumors are to be believed, he'll be quite a major player in the sequel, finally making something of himself.

But yeah, he was jobbing superhard. sad

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Kung Lao - Dead Hellslave

Now that I'm rewatching some of the Story Mode cutscenes again, after you get past the initial "UGH" of his introduction in the MK1 arc, where he's brash, jealous and cocky, he's actually not that bad at all. After Liu beats Shang and becomes the Champion, he seems genuinely happy for him. His original MK2 bio was in dire need of a rewrite, anyway.

But I still don't quite buy him standing around gloating and showing off to the crowd in the Koliseum long enough for Kahn to just walk over and wring his fucking neck. I mean, that was a great Kahn moment, don't get me wrong, but a very OOC moment for Kung Lao.

So it's a maybe on this one.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Jade - Dead Hellslave

I do like the little tidbit added to her bio that suggests that she was given to Kahn when she was a child by her own parents as tribute. I really wonder what Jade has to say about that.

What I do mind is the fact that there is pretty much one thing and only one thing of significance that Jade really does in OT - she gets ordered by Kahn to track down and kill Kitana. Torn between her loyalty to her master and loyalty to her friend,she finally makes her decision and saves Kitana's life from Reptile. It's kind of the breaking point of her character.

In MK9, there's not even a second of deliberation on her part. As soon as Kahn decides to dispose of Kitana, Jade immediately forgets all about the loyalty to the throne and defects to Earthrealm.

YOU HAD ONE JOB

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Noob Saibot - Soul was torn to pieces and spread across the sky, so possibly Permadead. (Sure you can theorize he was sent somewhere else instead, but that's not for sure. Him being permadead would justify bringing a different Bi-Han from a world where he's still Sub-Zero in, like some people think the MKX teasers like that dialogue Ed posted on twitter means)

We finally get to see a bit of Bi-Han outside of his portrayal in Mythologies, and it was great. He was always a cocky, unrepentant douchebag, and they nailed it perfectly.

Once he turned wraith, he assumed a much more active in the story. In OT, he was essentially just some shadowy guy doing shady things in the shadows. In NT he basically takes Millena's position that she held in UMK3 (active member of Kahn's army secretly serving Shinnok). No tears shed for that shit, since it never went anywhere and was ultimately just another resurrection that made the story hard to take seriously. It makes much more sense for Noob to assume that role, anyway.

What I do I dislike the fact that Sub-Zero discovered what his brother has become was too soon, though. They should've at least saved it for the next game.

On top of everything, he gets an overall plus for me simply because his Arcade ending brings Havik into the story, and that's awesome. :3

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Kintaro - About the same, except fans used to actually give a shit about him.

His added backstory fleshes out him much more than anything that was said about him in OT (which was FUCKING NOTHING).

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Sektor - Exactly the same. Possibly slightly better in that there's no one to stop him from turning the Lin Kuei into a Tekunin by another name.

I'd argue that he was actually one of the few major improvements. We finally got to see what he was like pre-cyberization.

Not to mention that the revelation of him being the Grandmaster's son is already starting to pay off in his Arcade ending. I could argue that Cyber-Zero bullshit cheapens even Sektor's story, since the juxtaposition of Kuai's humanity and Sektor's cold, mechanical ruthlessness made for a pretty great little subplot in the OT, but that's going more into MKDA territory.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Cyrax - Still enslaved to programming & working for Sektor. In the old timeline, he'd be lost in the desert about this time, which led to getting rescued and mind-freed by Jax.

Kinda split on this one. On one hand, he obviously had a tremendous amount of work put into him, what with having a whole new human model that is actually animated differently (!) than his robot form. I mean, that's fantastic. NRS guys went above and beyond the call of duty on this one. His expanded backstory about him being a Motswana warrior is great. Hell, he even got a whole chapter of his own in the Story Mode, where we actually got a feel for his actual personality. And I suppose that yeah, his arcade ending about him finding refuge among the Shaolin could potentially be at least comparable to his stint in the OIA in the old continuity.

Here's my problem,though:

THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN SMOKE'S STORY

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

All NRS did was have the Lin Kuei play a fucking game of musical chairs. Sub-Zero ended up with a slight variation of Cyrax's old story, Smoke ended up with Sub-Zero's old story, Sektor got the same thing as last time and Cyrax ended up with Smoke's old story. It's crap. It's doubly upsetting because they actually got it so RIGHT the first time.

The minus and the plus cancel each other out here.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Kabal - Dead Hellslave

When I mentioned the few B-listed who greatly benefited from a bio rewrite, him and Sektor are probably the poster children for that statement.

A plus for me.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Kenshi - Wasn't in the story, and with Shang and Sindel both dead, his character motivation is in limbo.

Shang got killed off in MKDA before Kenshi could get to him anyway.

My problem was that his relationship with Ermac was removed because it wouldn't make sense chronologically.

A minus.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Nightwolf - Dead Hellslave

I was pretty upset that we didn't get to see him bring the survivors to his reservation or whatever like he did in OT, and seeing him participate in MK1 was a massive WTF, but I think I'm slowly getting over that.

Also

>Sindel
>single-handedly decimating 75% of Earthrealm's forces
>#rekt by Native American Space Nuke

After he pulled that off, he instantly went from a borderline C-lister to a tremendous badass and a fan favorite.

Considering that we actually got to see some glimpses of his personality, let's be generous and count him as a plus.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Sindel - Dead Hellslave who never even got freed from mind control during the invasion.

That wasn't even my main problem with her. It was her massively dumbed-down backstory.

DAILY REMINDER:
Sindel's Bio Wrote:
In an attempt to thwart the emperor's designs on Earthrealm, she sacrificed herself. Her suicide created a magical ward preventing him from setting foot there.


Couldn't she have just killed herself because the grief of losing her husband, the horror of seeing her people get slaughtered and her entire realm ravaged and the trauma of having been forced by Kahn to be his queen (and god knows what else he forced her to do) completely crushed her emotionally to the point where not even having to take care of her baby daughter (!) stopped her from ending her own life? That's something that add genuine tragedy and drama to her character. What is this ward bullshit we're getting instead?

Not to mention that her resurrection, the focal point of MK3's story, was anticlimactic as all fuck. They go to the desert,and Quan Chi pulls her skeleton out of the sand. =|

Awful.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
So there you go, only three characters, Johnny, Mileena, and Quan Chi (Okay, I'll even say 4 and give you Sektor just to be nice), weren't...whatever the antonym of "improved" is, in some way or another, by the MK9 timeline.


When I was doing this, my totals were something like:

Improved - 10
Dumbed down - 11 + Cyber fucking Zero. Yes, I'm counting him separately. It's so fucking bad it it ruined three other characters by proxy.
Overall unchanged - 7 (+Motaro?).

And keep in mind that I was being really lenient and did not count getting punked by Sindel as an automatic negative.

It's not great.
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m0s3pH
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06/07/2014 05:44 PM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
m0s3pH Wrote:
the basic gist here is that Raiden started as an idiot, and he ended as an idiot. He never learned the error of his ways and it's left him worse off than he was at the same point in the original timeline. You'd think that after getting past the threats that Shang and Kahn posed earlier on that Raiden would've actually developed into a smarter, more judicious character. Instead, he stagnates


Actually, he doesn't stagnate, he GETS WORSE.

Raiden starts the story very cautious and wise, gives good advice to his allies, and tries to AVOID making any unnecessary changes to the timeline because he rightly fears the butterfly effects.

But from the moment he sees Smoke on, he starts trying to change EVERY SINGLE VISION he has, no longer remembering to regard the consequences.

By the invasion, he's degenerated into a panicking mess who zones out in the middle of conversations because he really is losing his mind, and doesn't even remember how much lightning it takes to kill a man.

So he does kinda have an arc, but you're damn sure right it ain't one that makes him a likeable protagonist the audience is rooting for.

I don't think the moral of MK9 was supposed to be "Liu Kang was right", but that's what I fuckin' took away at the end of the game.


I'm of the belief that the mere thought that screwing with timelines is a good idea labels Raiden as a buffoon from the get-go, but I definitely see where you're coming from with this post. Surely had the MK1 piece of the timeline gone south he would've gone mad with changes for the sake of it. For the record, yes, I know that the entire idea of the game is time travel. If Raiden were smarter he would've been far more subtle, even more so than he was in the beginning of the story.
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