I don't know exactly what you mean as far as the storytelling aspect goes, but i'm talking about a 2D fighter, like MK1-MKT. Unless I missed something here, I don't understand where Mythologies comes into play.

Grimm is right about SF.Mk should follow.

Well, I'll say this. I like 3D fighters NOW better then 2D fighters. But back in the day, I loved 2D fighters. I had Samurai Shodown, Marvel Vs Capcom 2, Night Warriors, Super SF2, Weaponlord, Primal Rage, Killer Instinct, Eternal Champions etc... I loved those games.

But to me, I just don't see those games as being the wave of the future. I don't see those flat 2D games carrying MK in to the next several games because honestly? How many 2D fighting games are on the market currently? SF4, Blazblue, maybe the recent Guilty Gear games, but the latter two are VERY niche titles and SF4 has nostalgia going for it that MK simply doesn't have.

I'm not saying that nostalgia completely carried SF4 to good sales, but if they took the same engine, same graphics etc and made a brand new fighting game, do you think that it would've sold nearly as well? I don't.

I'd also argue that 2D MK was more popular back in the day because 2D fighting games, and fighting games in general were more popular back then. Plus they had the digitized graphics and the blood that were much more surprising back then.

I'll agree that MK in 3D is still trying to find its bearings after several 3D outings. I had more fun playing the 2D games back in the 90's then I have playing the 3D games now. But that doesn't mean that I'd have more fun playing 2D games now.

Personally? I just want to see MK find that right balance of special moves and realistic 3D fighting. Give them all unique combos that are simple yet enjoyable to pull off, not the dial a combos from MK:DA. Give them all unique regular moves to go with their supposed styles. Give Jax multi-part throws if he's a wrestler (for example).

Work the combos in with the special moves so that if feels more like an extension of MK2's gameplay in terms of combos, but with the added nuances of air throws, multi part throws, counters, escapes, dodges etc of more recent games.

If they can do that, I think they'll have that 3D game that's great and unique to MK and not some Tekken rip off or 2D Street Fighter rehash.

I am a pro 2D person, and I think I can enlighten you. Having a 2D game telling a story doesn't have to be like mythologies. I actually have no idea how that popped into your head. They can tell the story like MKD with a konquest mode, or they can do the story mode like MKvsDC. Just because it is a 2D fighter doesn't mean it has to tell a story like Mythologies.

Finally I want to clarify that I want a 2D Mortal Kombat rendered in 3D. Just like Street Fighter 4, or Smash bros. It's not that hard to wrap your mind around the concept. Just imagine MKvsDC except you can't move 3 dimensionally. And, don't tell me that it's this 2.5D crap. That's just too confusing and not even experts are 100% sure they should be called that.

See, I was so close to just saying "alright, I can accept your opinion even though I completely disagree with it" and then you throw in a line like: that's why all 2d games that go to 3d is considered bad by people who know fighting games."

WHAT ARE YOU BASING THIS ON!?!?

You have no proof to back that up. Who have you talked to about this? Five people? Ten people? A hundred people? You just throw out these blanket statements, assuming that I'm dumb enough to simply accept them at face value and I'm sorry but I'm not.

But barring that, and barring the fact that you keep trying to back up your opinion with some survey of "pro gamers" or "gamers who know fighting games" or "actual fighting game characters" (okay, maybe not the last one), I'll just this:

I think that MK in 3D is okay. Do I enjoy MK now as much as I did back in the 2D era? No. I don't. But I also wouldn't enjoy a new 2D MK now as much as I did back then either. The simple reason is that it's hard for me to feel emersed in a 2D fighting game. After it's been 15 years since their popularity began to wane, it honestly looks primative by today's standards.

I do however think that MK in 3D has potential. I really think that the MK team has been making strides towards a good fighting game, they just need to put it all together.

I'd personally love to see a 3D fighter where each character has 7 or 8 special moves, a good amount of throws, and a combo system that encorporates the special moves ala MK1 and MK2. So you could have something that's Kitana Fan lift, square wave punch, fan throw, but you could also find a way to start it off with two and a kick.

Or you could have Sub Zero freeze, jumpkick, slide into an ankle lock, leg lock etc.

I want to see MK find that perfect balance between 2D and 3D fighting, keeping the special moves, while adding things like throws, multi-part throws, counters, escapes, dodges, locks, breaks, catches, deflections etc.

A system that's easy to learn, with simple combos, but deep for those that want it. We won't get it through MK3/MK:DA style dial a combos, MK1 and MK2 are outdated by today's fighting game standards, and while I don't want MK to be tekken or soul calibur, a nice mix of old school MK and the new school would be great in my mind.

You don't like that? No problem. Again, we just agree to disagree.

and konquest can be its own game anyways or you can make that fully 3d side game. after all adventure games are better in 3d, it would be like mksm included in mk? as a side game.

and mk is probably never gonna do good as 3d. doa 4 is probably the farthest you can make a 3d game stylish and gimmicky without having bad gameplay.
oh and bloody roar thats pretty wild......

In a way Bigsyke is right. When street fighter went 3D it got poor reviews. When MK4 came out it got mixed reviews. When KOF went to 3D it also recieved mixed reviews. Also one of the biggest problems with MK is that it's a fighting game style that works best in 2D. Reviewers complained that sidestepping mixed with special moves doesn't work well. I actually felt that the 3D elements of MKvsDC is what held the game back, and was a big cause of the problems gameplay wise.

There is nothing wrong with wanting MK in 3D. However, I don't think it's possible to make a fighter of this style done well in 3D. That's just my opinion, and maybe MK9 will be 3D, and maybe it will be good, and maybe it will revolutionize what a 3D fighter can do. But that is a lot of maybes.

If they keep pre-dialed combos, then they already lost. They always seem to say they are getting rid of them, but they are always there.

I'm sticking with my idea of I'd rather it be in 2D, but if It's in 3D, I will give it a try, but I won't have as high of hopes.

well even without the pro gamers opinion, a lot casual sf,mk,gg,kof fans did not like the 3d games AS MUCH as the 2d games in the 90's and some think its an abomination. i have saw a few who do like the 3d versions of those games. but the majority of the average fans will tell you 2d games do NOT translate well to 3d. its not that we hate 3d games, we just dont like 2d styled as 3d. and it is our opinion, the majority.

and as far as the 2d,2.5,3d mix up. i want 3d backgrounds and 3d character models, with fast 2d gameplay from mkt. graphics could look similar to mgs4 and god of war3 or gears of war or the new ps3 game heavy rain.

realistic mix with fantasy style, no cell shaded cartoons or anime.

Ok I see The point. But i doubt Konquest would work in 2D, and I also doubt that they would do a 2D fighting mechanic, and a 3D konquest.

it comes down to... (if it were 3D rendered in 2D)

Would it feel like a full game if it were fast moving 2D characters? If They could pull it off AND have 3D konquest with special 3D camera angles on fatalities.

Throw in FMV endings and cutscenes.. And il take the bait with no arguments.

I certainly don't hate 3D fighters, but i'm not too wild about them as of late. Lately, the fighters that impressed me the most have all been 2D, with the exception of Tekken 6.

I also feel that 2D fighters don't translate very well into 3D. Notice that MK is really the only one that did make that crossover. Unfortunately, not yet successfully. All others stayed true to their original.

Well, I hope that soon, they will release something that will get me excited.

I want 2d fighting (umk3 MKT) with 3d models and arenas and effects and all that shit.

Oh, so now we're just dismissing the "pro gamers" opinion? Because you know so many pro gamers and talk to them on a regular basis, right?

That's unfortunate, because I was really hoping you'd produce that survey where you asked all of these thousands of pro gamers that you know what their obviously important opinion was regarding MK in 2D or 3D.

So let's talk about all of these casual gamers that you've talked to regarding this issue. Since you keep saying things like "a lot of casual fans" and "it is our opinion, the majority."

Okay, Majority, if that is in fact your real name, WHO DO YOU TALK TO!?!? Where do you pull this garbage from!?!? Show me your survey of 500 gamers, or fighting game fans, or fans of sf, mk, gg, and kof that all say this. YOU CAN'T because it doesn't exist because you just keep making crap up to support your statements.

Who are all of these people that called MK in 3D an ABOMINATION? C'mon, I want names. Are we talking reviewers? Was it Jeff Gerstman? Dan Hsu? Some of the guys over IGN or Gamespot? Game Informer? Post some links, give me page numbers. Tell me what authorities on anything to do with video games actually used the word "abomination."

No? Not reviewers? Okay fine. These casual fans... How many have you talked to? Five? Ten? Thirty? At what point did you talk to enough people and say "you know what? I think I have a general consensus of what the majority of people think on this topic." Was it 100? 200?

C'mon man, you're so tapped in to the "average fan," show me that survey of all of these "average fans" that you talk to. It sounds like you've done a TON of market research on this.

You know what? Nevermind. I'm done talking to you. You're borderline delusional. I have zero problem with the fact that you want MK to be in 2D. None whatsoever. But your arguments are full of lies, half truths, slanted viewpoints or just flat out BS like that you somehow have "info" from the "average fan" or the "casual gamer" which you obviously don't.

You are my hero...
No offense to the recipient of that quote. I just found myself laughing at least 3 times at what I pictured you looking like when you were screaming that into your computer monitor. hahahaha

Street Fighter EX and EX2 didn't get poor reviews. IGN gave them an 8.5 and an 8 respectively. EX3, the one you're probably thinking about was at the laungh of the PS2. It was described by IGN as "rushed, uninspired, and downright mediocre." That's a quote directly from their review.

Nowhere in those words is that an indictment of SF being in 3D. It's in indictment of the team making the game. To me, that's pretty typical of a launch game, but honestly? I played EX3 and I thought it was decent.

But still, 2 out of the 3 in the EX series were good games. That was right about the time that the 2D version went in to hiding basically, and we didn't see it for several years.

As for King of Fighters 2006, Official Playstation Magazine gave it a 4 out of 5 and 1up.com gave it an 8 out of 10 (before it went to the dumb system they have now). But still, the Gamestats average score is a 7.0. So I'll grant you that it was average.

Again though, I always saw KoF as average to begin with, so that doesn't overly surprise me. That was one series that I never really got in to.

As for MK4, Gamespot gave it an 8.6, IGN gave it an 8.0 and Gamepro gave it an 4.5 out of 5. This is the Playstation version I'm talking about.

MK Gold on the Dreamcast was released to mediocre reviews because it was a rehash of a game that had been released on prior generation systems over a year before and the graphics looked hideous in general, but especially so when compared to Soul Calibur, which was also a launch title for the Dreamcast.

You brought up a good point though about 2D fighters making the transition to 3D and how tough it was. Well, based on the limited research I did, I don't overly see that as being the case. But I do agree that MK has had its fair share of aches and pains along the way.

I agree, its tough to transition from a 2D fighting style to a 3D style. Remember the outrage over the fact that MK:DA took out the uppercut for most characters? They actually had to bring it back for MK:D.

Stuff like this... How do you reconcile the fact that the first several games are played on a 2D playing field with jumps, uppercuts, big roundhouses, a severely limited set of regular moves, a few special moves etc...

They take that template, and then they put on this new 3D canvas, where the games they're now competing against aren't Street Fighter, Weaponlord or even Marvel's Versus games, but now they're going up against Tekken, Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur and Dead or Alive.

These are game series that have had two, three or even four games-worth of time to refine their fighting systems, hone their touch when it comes to graphics, tighten their gameplay so that it works just right, down to the last frame animation.

So yeah, MK's first real outing in 3D, MK:DA, is going to look pretty green in comparison to those games. They brought the dial a combos back from MK3, which was a huge mistake, and they put in these style gimmicks and they left out a bunch of stuff that people used to like etc.

But overall? It was still a solid fighting game. It averaged a hard eight on Gamestats, with only 3 of the 16 scores provided going for lower than an 8 out of 10. That's not bad for the first time out.

After three more games, MKD, which was basically fan service, MKA which was basically MK Trilogy part 2 and MKvsDC, we've seen the MK team try new ideas to varying rates of success, but they've gradually moved away from the complicated dial a combo strings and they've settled in more recently on a system that incorporates smaller combos mixed with special moves. The last game had a great number of special moves, I think.

To me, MKvsDC, while still slightly lacking in the graphics dept and still a bit lean in the gameplay was none the less another step in the right direction... MInus the running through walls, the rock em sock em close kombat and the free fall kombat.

So I dunno man, I think that MK would benefit from going a little more in the 3D direction as far as giving characters unique regular moves, but the blood, the special moves and everything else that makes a fighting game MK obviously isn't going anywhere either, so I think that we could potentially be headed for a better balance and hopefully a better game.

I don't think that 2D MK works in 3D, but I think that if you add the right amount of 3D fighter elements to MK, you could have a really nice balance that pleases both 2D and 3D enthusiasts. It's a unique problem to have for the MK team, to be sure, but the reason why all of those other 2D fighters' companies don't have this problem is because 2D fighters barely get made anymore. Many of them died out in the 90's.

I honestly think that MK had stayed flat 2D, they'd be lying on the scrap heap with Eternal Champions, Fighters Destiny, and all the other also-rans of that era.

Still though, I don't fault you for wanting 2D anymore than you'd fault me for wanting 3D. I just hope we can get a good mix of the two so everyone's happy.

Ha ha, yeah, not exactly the most mature moment I've ever had. I'm usually a pretty laid back guy, actually. It's like, I saw the posts where he was arguing with Icebaby and she complained about the EXACT same issue of how he only supports his opinions with either restating them or just throwing out a bunch of blanket statements that he never has any intention of proving.

Yet still... I got sucked in. After about 8 posts of that garbage, I guess I just got fed up lol.

I should reiterate that I have ZERO problems with anyone that wants MK to be 2D. If that's your opinion, then fine, go for it. I see the 2D market as more niche now than ever before, so in a way I think it would be MK going backwards, and after seeing how many 2D fighters have died off in the last 15+ years, I just see that way leading toward any early grave for my favorite series.

But again, I don't fault anyone for wanting MK to be what it once was in terms of game speed, stature etc. I just don't like it when people disparage what I enjoy, or make false statements in regards to their argument. It would've been fine if it had happened once or twice and he actually DID back up what he was saying, but he just kept doing the same thing over and over again while insulting games that I enjoy.

So yeah, I got a bit angry I guess...

My bad!

I had know idea that EX games had gotten decent reviews. If you ever watch any screwattack videos they always seem to talk about them being crap. I always got the general impression that Street Fighter EX was shit, end of story. Now I don't have a survey that says what each fighting game fanbase wants like Bigsyke.(If that was real it would probably make the developers job really easy).
I just get the general impression that 2D fighters should stay 2D.

Most reviewers who rate traditional 2D fighters tend to give them higher scores in the gameplay aspect of the game. Now I can't tell you what the fans want, because I don't check every fighting game forum, and I can't tell you what the MK fans want, because it always seems split 50/50 with anything about gameplay or characters.

However, to me I thought MKvsDC had excellent fighting it just needed to be 2D. I liked how you could intergate special moves into combos making the gameplay flow. I also really liked the pro-move system that made mastering a character more fun, and more challenging. However, me and some of the reviewers had problems with the 3D elements. Like how you can just side step special moves. The 3D also makes it so there are wall combos, that are near infinite. I think if they can restrict it to 2D then this Kombat can work at well, This would also give them more time to find flaws, and build upon the combat rather than trying to make the 3D elements work.

I may seem like a 2D nazi, but I actually wouldn't mind MK being 3D if it worked well. However, I just don't see it happening anytime soon, and I do like 2D fighters more than 3D fighters.

Oh that's no problem man. Like I said, I wouldn't fault you in the least for having the opinion that you're clearly entitled to. I only got angry/annoyed at Bigsyke because he kept talking like he'd done extensive market research and kept using phrases like "pro gamers want" and "we are the majority" when he has nothing to base that off of.

As for what you're saying here, I dunno... I always liked the EX games. I thought that they worked pretty well and while some might see them as slow or less responsive compared to 2D games, I just saw them as more methodical, allowing me to plan out my strategy.

For me, that's what I love about a game like Soul Calibur. When you learn a character inside and out (my character of choice has been Cervantes since the begining), learning what moves can get the opponent out of the ring, how best to juggle them, how to fake an attack and pull back, getting the opponent to expose themselves, when to throw a counter, when to retreat and how to retreat, knowing how far the opponent's reach can be, getting around their attacks for as side throw etc etc.

To me, you just dont' get that kind of depth with a 2D fighting game. Yes, there is certainly depth to be found, but to me, it seems as though it's much harder to find, plus it's even harder to find an opponent that knows that depth. I know, there's xbox live, but (and this is just me talking) I don't play fighting games so that I can play strangers online. I play against my friends and most of them think that depth in SF is jump kick, sweep repeat.

But in a game like Soul Calibur, all of my friends that play were able to find a character that they liked, learned a bunch of moves and then it really became a strategy of when to attack, how to attack, what move to use, when to parry, when to knock an opponent back, again, the list goes on and on.

You thought that MKvsDC's gameplay was good? So did I, actually. I thought that it was much more refined than previous efforts. I liked the number of special moves and how they mixed with the combos. I also like the fact that you can dodge special moves.

While I love special moves and obviously think that they should always be a part of MK (if you've ever seen me post about it, I'd rather have characters have an upwards of 7-8 special moves each AT LEAST), I also think that it's good to be able to side step them.

I mean, you could always duck about 98% of projectiles in 2D games, right? That doesn't render them useless. To me, it just adds another layer of depth and strategy because it's no longer this easy, automatic thing with special moves. Sure, before they could be blocked, but now it becomes "okay, do I throw the spear? Because he's far enough to dodge yet close enough to kick my ass if I miss."

I love stuff like that in fighting games. The idea that you have think before you act, but think quickly. Honestly, a couple of my buddies have told me on separate occasions while we played MKvsDC that it's the first MK game they've enjoyed since MK2. They all hated the dial a combos from all of the games since MK3.

Now, I'm not saying that my buddies speak for everyone, but I'm just saying that I think that MK in 3D is heading in the right direction. They might not be there yet (I agree about the infinates, without a doubt) and like I said, there have been some growing pains for the series, for sure, but I'd still rather go forward than head back to what MK's style was well over a decade ago.

On a side note, I also dug the pro moves. I'm hoping that we see more of that in the next game!

no one person is right or wrong here...lets not forget this is each persons opinion not factual. everyone has different tastes.

ign and few people do give a lot of bad games good rating and good games bad ratings. they act like fanboys somtimes too, with the xbox, ps3 junk.

if ex was so good street fighter would have stuck with it. or if it just did not sell pro gamers would have still liked it just like street fighter 3rd strike. the 2d to 3d games suck man to the majority of pro and casual. yes pro gamers will tell you if a game is good or not. not ign or gamespot. just look at evo tournaments. no 2d to 3d game has never got in, not sf ex, and a lot of them of sf fans. so they are not bias.

just like vf5 pro games suck to the majority casual gamers because they are too hard or not flashy enough. thats why tekken sales better.

sf4 mixes style and substance well. mk does not, its all style, which is fine in only 2d to me.

go find a list of the best 3d games from anyone and bet you wont find a 2d to 3d game on there. 2d to 3d games are average at best buddy. and dont want an average game i want a GREAT game.

and the japanese play 2d games way more than usa, they still have arcades. 2d games are really popular in jp. just watch japanes game tournaments you will see. japs also create the best fighting games.tekken,vf,sf,kof,gg..... so its safe to follow them. they know what they are talking about.

3d mk probably could be good if ed boon let a japanese producer help him.

but yeah mk should be 2d to me.

That's a really good point. I don't think any 3D mortal kombat has been at a tournament. The problem is that it's not that great compared to other 3D fighters, and it's not that great compared to fighters with special moves. I think the next MK could be a game played in tournaments if it was 2D and they used some of the gameplay mechanics of MKvsDC.

So far I don't think MK stands a chance of taking Tekken or Virtua Fighters crown in the 3D game aspect. However, I do think they could be a force to be reckoned with if it went back to 2D style. MKvsDC's gameplay was made to resemble more 2D gameplay even Ed Boon himself said that. Part of the problem I see with MK is that it may be hard for them to make it more hard core 2D, because they are in more of a position to sell rather than make a highly balanced, nearly unflawed, and pro level game. That means they have to dumb it down for the masses.

One good thing about MK going in the 3D direction is that if it worked really well, then it will revolutionize what a 3D game can do. This would be the first time 2D style would mesh really well with 3D, and it would probably generate a new genre of fighters. However, like I said before MK has a long way to go, and I'm not sure if it is even possible to make a game that way. Which is one of the main reasons I want it to go 2D.

yeah mk is not a deep fighter so i think they should stay 2d. because 3d has to be deep and realistic in order for it to be a good fighting game. in 2d you can have shallow gamplay but it still loads of fun. just like mk1 - mk3. 3d changed to much for me and it made mk boring because its not deep like tekken or sc.

its not that 2d or 3d is funner or outdated, it depends on who's making the 2d or 3d game.

so basically im saying ed does not know how to make 3d games, so im saying stick with what you know.

MK's 3D, get over it. If you want 2D so bad. Go play Street Fighter. You sound like you're more a fan of that series anyways.

Uhh... it's not just Ed who makes the game, it's the whole MK team. FACT!!!!

IGN are not fanboys. You're just saying that to try and negate the fact that critics like games in a series that you claim to enjoy. Even though I've only heard you rip on all the MK games that have come out for the last 10 - 12 years.

What the hell is the "xbox, ps3 junk" and what does it have to do with their reviews of MK?


If you hadn't noticed, Capcom stopped making BOTH 2D AND 3D Street Fighter games. SF4 is the first SF game to come out in YEARS.

Great, so now we're back to this "you're the voice of pro and casual gamers" crap again? Dude, you're not the voice of anyone but you. Just like you won't hear me say people between the ages of 15 and 30 overwhelmingly prefer 3D MK to 2D MK because I have no proof to back that up.

You just give your opinion, you have no survey, you have no sample size, you have no interview, you just have a list of gamers from a 2D oriented fighting tournament. Congratulations, you went went to the well and found water.

I'll keep trusting critics, awards that come from critics and developers, sales figures and my own taste in games. You don't like my taste in games? Well then it's a good thing you don't have to live inside my head, I do.


Okay, that was barely English. So pro gamers don't like Virtua Fighter because it's too hard? Well then, that's another thing that I don't have in common with pro gamers. I like my fighting games deep and challenging, not old cardboard cutouts doing two special moves and the same basic crap.

That's me though. You like 1995 era video games and prefer them to modern games? Fine buddy. To each, his own.


You say these things like they're facts and they're NOT. They're YOUR opinion. Not casual gamers, not pro gamers, not the developers, critics or fans. JUST YOU. I disagree with you.

I liked the SF EX games. I like the new Mortal Kombat games. I have a right to my opinion and your telling me who else likes what isn't going to make me change my mind about anything. Oh, and most 2D fighting games died out before they could transition to 3D. How many have even attempted to do it? Not many. So the fact that they might not be on some imaginary list that doesn't exist isn't surprising. Well, that and the fact that this list of yours is, much like your survey of pro and casual gamers, totally imaginary.



First off, "Japs" is an ethnic slur, so way to be (more) ignorant. Second, the Japanese gaming market and gaming industry as a whole is in decline. So why would I take my opinion from what's popular in Japan? That's about as dumb an idea as taking my opinion from pro gamers.

Oh it's safe to follow them? Oh okay, well you let me know when it's not and I'll just change my opinion right away. Seriously man, get real. As I've said a thousand times, I like 3D MK. Reviewers like it and obviously fans like it if they all sell so well. This is mainly how I base my view.

You go by what pro gamers play at 2D oriented tournaments and what people in Japan are (apparently) doing. Go for it. If that works for you, that's great. But I don't NEED to look to what you look for to judge the value in ANYTHING. I like Tekken, Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter and a litany of other games because I came to that conclusion via my own methods and my own eventual judgement.

You will not convert me to your way of thinking because I personally find it to be absurd. That's my opinion, I'm entitled to it. You keep liking the stuff you like, I'll keep liking the stuff that I like.

Yes, it should be 2D TO YOU. You've made that abundently clear in the 400 posts you've put up about it. As for your idea of 3D MK being better (I already think it's good) if a japanesse producer helped him...

Now that... thankfully, we can agree on. I'm fine with leaving it at that and never EVER talking to you about this again. PLEASE feel free to do the same.