Hapkido

MK:D seems like the perfect fighting game... on paper.

When MKDA was about to come out, I was psyched : 3 fighting styles? Link combos from style to style? Holy shit! It's gonna be awesome!

When I popped in the disc.... well you can guess what my reaction was.

I didnt know anything about fighting games bak then, but still... it wasn't as good as I thought it would have been.

The whole concept of the death traps, 3 styles and all that stuff is good, but when they get to the conception, they just screw up. They're incompetent. They don't understand what makes a fighting game good, yet they're producing one of the most popular fighting game franchise in the world. (I should mention that I'm talking about Midway).

I say let some other developper create the fighting engine. No, better yet, just fire everyone and hire intelligent programers. (Only fire the ones responsible for the gameplay thought, as the writers have and still do an excellent job on the story).

I agree, diagonals have to be included (it goes without saying that the moves used by these button presses aren't useless as more than 90% of the moves in MKD, nobody wants more crap).

About the long ranged attacks, I agree that the weapons should take care of this department. It was smart to make weapon holders lose more health when they get struck, but it's stupid if the weapon itself doesn't provide some sort of advantage. Weapons, IMO, should be powerful but risky to use. Like the unblockable moves in Soul Calibur, only this time it's not just a move, it's the entire style. Wouldn't that be awesome.

BTW, HDTran, TTT, Satyagraha and everyone else speaking up for the game, keep doing an excellent job. Don't mind the people who won't understand or just take the time to listen to what we have to say.

look. midway is looking for money... they put in MK what most people want. most people want more
and better fatalities (only 1?!?! that suckz!11!), classic characters, stage fatalities, and lots of extras... everything but gameplay. the thing is, the people in midway know this. i bet they can sell million copies no matter how shitty the game is only because it's "Mortal Kombat".
think about it, why bothering and creating a better fighting system, better gameplay, if most of the crowd will buy it anyway? most of the message board loved MK:DA. most of the board will love MK:D because it has all of the cool characters, cool konquest mode, puzzle and chess kombat, more fatalities, stage fatalities, hara kiris or whatever. and they will have tons of secrets to find and everything. until it will start getting boring, there will already be info about MK7... plus looking for 'final secrets' and such... most of the crowd will be pleased. i'm realy not sure if i'm getting it or not.

I know what you mean... life is pretty unfair at times.

Unfortunately, you're totally right. Midway has no interest in making a good game, as long as they make an MK at all. It will sell a lot, and there's not much we can do about it, except posting nice threads like this and hope they hear us out.

Sad part is, even though I know the game is going to be deceiving, I would still buy it (if I had a PS2 or XBOX), just because I'm an MK fan. I'd be contribuating to their crappy game's success.

maybe when mk goes online, everybody will see it.

They will, and they will start complaining about cheapness, when some of us will just be taking advantage of the several flaws of the fighting engine they love so much.

Exactly. People can't hide behind the defense that they've "mastered" the game with their friends and know it's perfect. The majority of people on these boards I can imagine will at least play a little bit online. I'm giving it three months after release. So by late December these boards will be swarming with people complaining about this and that. How can the MK team ignore something then when not only is it talked about so much but when they can actually see it happen in front of their eyes online? Online play in Deception is a godsend for MK7. That I'm sure of.

Bleed Wrote: Hapkido

Good choice Bleed. In MK: DA, I felt Hapkido was quite well-rounded. It certainly wasn't the most powerful style, but I felt speed and fluidity in it. Now, I'm not saying it was a weak style either. Overall, I felt Hapkido was decent in the power area. I loved all of the different possibilities with combos for his Hapkido style. Some of you may say differently there, but maybe it's just me.

He had a lot of great kicking techniques and I wished they put a different attack move for F + 4 instead of just make it the same move as his 4 move (Front Snap Kick). Maybe they could've put in something like a Rear Leg Front Thrust Kick where Scorpion would lean back for more of a powerful move instead of the Front Thrust Kick where you step through and you're in the other side of the fighting stance.

There were some things that Hapkido really needed. First of all, it needed more hand techniques. In MK: DA, Hapkido had 5 hand techniques and I didn't particularly find them to be that useful. However, in MK: D, combos like 3, B + 1 will be extremely useful when it comes to knocking opponents into death traps and if you go play MK: DA and try out the practice mode with Scorpion, you'll know what I'm talking about. (that is if you aren't familiar with that combo)

What hand techniques should be implemented you may ask? Well, I was thinking of moves like backfists and spinning backfists. I feel they should also put in elbow attacks in Hapkido. Maybe they should even put in palm strikes. Now, I'd have to get back to you on the palm strike thing, but still..

Aside from hand and elbow moves, Hapkido was missing out on throws, joint-locks, and grappling moves. For those of you who aren't that familiar with Hapkido, it is largely influenced by a Japanese martial art called Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu which had moves like joint-locks and throws. That same style is also the basis of Aikido. My point in saying that of course is Hapkido needs joint-locks, armbars, and such for defense. I personally think it'd be a good idea if they had it like in Tekken where you'd press two attack buttons together to do some kind of super move type thing. Some other defense moves that I feel should be incorporated in the game for Hapkido are circular blocks (whole circle, semi-circle, and or quarter-cirle), rolling, breakfalling and maybe flipping.

The throws in Hapkido and Aikido should be similar to some extent. Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do should share a lot of the same kicking techniques although I liked the diversity of the kicking techniques in MK: DA between Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do. Why is that? Well, Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do were both influenced by an ancient Korean martial art called Tae Kyon which specialized in kicking techniques.

Overall, Hapkido should definitely be well-rounded. I feel that well-rounded styles should be a bit more on the harder to master side in which Hapkido wasn't in MK: DA. It should still be relatively easy to use of course, but with enhancements and such, especially with the ones I mentioned, it should be a bit harder to master so things can be more balanced out and such.

The thing that worries me is weather or not people will see the faults in the first place, then actually care enough to want to fix it. I'm literally scared that "MK fanboys" will simply not care. I'm scared that they wont care even when faults have been clearly and elegantly presented.

I would like to think that mankind is intelligent enough to see garbage and then want to throw it out. I honestly don't know, though. "sigh" We'll see, soon enough.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: Exactly. People can't hide behind the defense that they've "mastered" the game with their friends and know it's perfect. The majority of people on these boards I can imagine will at least play a little bit online. I'm giving it three months after release. So by late December these boards will be swarming with people complaining about this and that. How can the MK team ignore something then when not only is it talked about so much but when they can actually see it happen in front of their eyes online? Online play in Deception is a godsend for MK7. That I'm sure of.

maybe this is what it takes for mk7 to be a good game

Satyagraha Wrote: The thing that worries me is weather or not people will see the faults in the first place, then actually care enough to want to fix it. I'm literally scared that "MK fanboys" will simply not care. I'm scared that they wont care even when faults have been clearly and elegantly presented. I would like to think that mankind is intelligent enough to see garbage and then want to throw it out. I honestly don't know, though. "sigh" We'll see, soon enough.

That would suck so much if people actually see things that aren't good but are too blind to admit there's something wrong. People who just don't know any better can learn by seeing but people in denial aren't going to break.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: Satyagraha Wrote: The thing that worries me is weather or not people will see the faults in the first place, then actually care enough to want to fix it. I'm literally scared that "MK fanboys" will simply not care. I'm scared that they wont care even when faults have been clearly and elegantly presented. I would like to think that mankind is intelligent enough to see garbage and then want to throw it out. I honestly don't know, though. "sigh" We'll see, soon enough. That would suck so much if people actually see things that aren't good but are too blind to admit there's something wrong. People who just don't know any better can learn by seeing but people in denial aren't going to break.

Sadly, I can see some of the "it's perfect" fans getting upset about the cheapness of online play, shrugging it off, and leaving online play for good to continue playing with their family and friends... just to keep MK on the pedastal that they have put it on

Now THAT would be a crying shame..

I mean, dont these people want the game to Improve?

Thats the point of sequels........

HDTran,

Just wanted to complement you on your gameplay breakdown. Extremely concise and well thought out. Your skill level and breadth of knowledge in fighting games is evident.

It's facing people like you that make me re-think playing MKD online. :)

At least EVERYBODY will see the flaws, and know that we are not just nitpicking.

Every little bit helps. Sadly being in the minority, we need all the help we can get. Though, come to think of it, we're in the minority when it comes to MK fans but most general fighting game fans are on our side. Some food for thought.

I know it's too late for any more what if this and that stuff but does anybody think that Shujinko will have an extremely simple infinite if he has Scorpion's spear and Sub-Zero's freeze?

TonyTheTiger Wrote: I know it's too late for any more what if this and that stuff but does anybody think that Shujinko will have an extremely simple infinite if he has Scorpion's spear and Sub-Zero's freeze?

Tony:
I've been thinking about it, but I don't think so, especially seeing how Damage Reduction or Midway's 2 launcher limit in a single combo will kick in.

Replying to some of the earlier stuff in this thread, sorry about my absence from it guys.

TheRack:
Tobal's system is very interesting TheRack, primarily it's grappling system. However, other than that, I really don't see many qualities that I really like about the game. Tobal is a good game, there's no doubt in that, but MK should definately handle things better in the realm of how 3d fighters are done ala Tekken, Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, etc. This includes projectiles as well, definately every projectile in MK should be one of the three following. Can only be blocked low (low attack) & tracks, can only be blocked standing (mid attack) & tracks, unblockable and doesn't track. That in itself would remedy a lot of the problems with the usefulness of projectiles as they will be able to be actually utilized in mixup. There are some other stuff I could think up of for projectiles, but that's the core of fixing that issue in my opinion. Of course if MK had a different movement system, perhaps making projectiles like True Ogre or Devil Kazuya might be a good idea.

Egon:
Thanks Egon, the discussion and encouragement from my peers that expect a better fighting game engine and from people who learns MK flaws is what keeps me going.

Satya: That would probably make me cry, really. Not because my love of MK would blind me to that extent, but because people are so ignorant in fluff that they can't recognize something presented infront of their face.

ON A SIDE NOTE, I hope to do something upon the first few months of MKD's release to help break down the moves in a more concise manner to show people exactly how many useless moves there really are. Probably some sort of movelist breakdown, damage counts, safety, whether it knocksdown, launches, etc. Too bad we can't get our hands on framedata. =P
Edit: Just wanted to thank ImmortalKombatant and Sleepwalker for keeping this thread alive at times when it needed it as well.

I wonder if the frame data can be extracted from the game's code itself. People tore MK:DA apart and came up with some neat stuff. There's that sticky thread on the DA board still there even though it was abandoned quite some time ago. Maybe if there's a PS2/XBOX saavy person around with enough interest they'd be willing to look around and extract the info. It'd be far more productive than looking for a final secret and if Noob is running around the Krypt.

I also have the same feelings about Tobal. I played through all of the first and most of the second. Tobal 2's quest mode though is probably the most irritating thing ever. But the grapple system is really the only thing that shows some sort of innovation. Everything else is kind of basic. Though I do wonder why Dream Factory didn't do more with the Tobal engine and instead chose to make a horrendous fighter like Ehrgeiz and didn't do anything worth bragging about after that.

lol that might work, I've considered actually capping the game at 60fps and timing stuff in practice mode (as soon as you see the icon for the button, you time the frames when the enemy is actually hit) for execution frames, but I don't have cap stuff. Since Execution frames isn't as important as delay after, frame advantage, etc. it doesn't really matter as much. Although it would be cool to have real frame data.

I've asked and discussed with multiple sources regarding frame data; players and profesionals alike. The fact is, if you cap the shit, even at 60fps, there is always data loss with in the stream. Then you've got human error. You might be able to get a rough estimate of the data, but nothing definate. Which, having it definate, is kind of the point of frame data anyway.

Plus, not only do you have execution till the hit registers, then the disadvantage, which is almost imposible to measure by eye, especially if a buffer system doesn't exist - THANKS MIDWAY!! REALLY GOOD!! Then you've got hella arbitrary shit like invulnerable and soft frames.

It's a tall order, lol. I doubt that Midway will release the frame data to, say, Tips and Tricks, too. lol. Unlike how Arcadia gets that shit from the various companies in japan. Midway, forever low tier.

Edit: Also, I would crap my pants if Midway actually took the time to document the frames of their animation cycles. Let alone hardcore frame data designed to ballance a game and give it functionalilty, lol.

Edit # 2: HDT, or anyone for that matter. I too was planning on breaking down some properties for MKD and posting them. So, if anyone wants to get a system together then split the work up, I'm good for it.

I partially understand frame data, but not completely.

can someone explain this to me a little?

Bleed:
I've been actually considering your idea since you posted it and I'm still not sure. In the name of realism and naturalistic looking fight, it sounds really really nice dude. I mean I think it would work. It's just for some reason, everytime I think of my character automatically moving for me to dodge (animation wise), I remember V-ism Cody from SFA3 again when he blocks mids and highs, lol. But yeah, I think it'd be great, although very different at first. Question on that system though, does that mean that the arms used to enter the stances move as slow as normally moving from standing to crouching? That also means it has to go to extremes to make high/mid blocking and low blocking look different enough to easily differentiate right?

Satya:
I never knew that, damn, so much for even having a possibility of frame data then. =P

I'm not sure, but I think someone should make a thread (late at who knows when so no one replies) where the first post is a post with links to anchors of the posts following that. Then that person proceeds to make every reply a single character, each with their own HTML table for their movelist, then their combos, then their strategies. After that, people just keep contributing to that thread and the person who originally created it can just update those threads and list who contributed what and etc. as well as the information in their designated posts. Others can go into the thread and easily click on the first post and get anchored down to the corresponding character they wish to look at. This way its easily accessible to people as well as it being shown that its the community that created it as well. So like say I want some info on Kenshi, I click on Kenshi and I see his movelists, combos, strategies and under "movelist" (assuming we make movelists more than just names and motions. But also safety, whether it launches/knockdowns/etc. properties, and a rating of overall usefulness within the stance) I see the contributor being Satya and I will know who contributed as well as get access to the information instantly.
Kinda like the MKDA gameplay thread, except the first 20 something posts are from one posted with each character in it with all the information so far. Whoever wants to do that would have a lot of work to keep it updated though.

ImmortalKombatant:
Hmm well I'm not sure which particular problem you're having with frames, but let me just cover it generally. (hopefully not drawn out like my normal posts)

Frame Data is information on a move's execution, frame disadvantage and frame advantage in different situations. Think of it simply as a real number that's counter generally at 60 frames per second, which you can measure how fast moves are, how safe, how much advantage, how much disadvantage, etc. Normally, fighting game developers supply this to magazines like Arcadia, which Satya mentioned up there, so that they are printed to the utmost accuracy.

Now basic execution frames, frame disadvantage and advantage.

I'm going to use Street Fighter as an example here. Have you ever noticed that when you're close, someone like Ryu can do crouching jabs repeatedly or crouching shorts repeatedly and push you away? Ask yourself why for a second. Now lets say you are fighting Ryu as Ryu. Why not after blocking Ryu's first crouching jab, you jab at the instant it connects back and hit at the same time when he does his second jab? Surely your jab is equal to his. The thing is, his first jab gave him frame advantage. This means that when you blocked it, you were left disadvantaged for a few frames. So lets just say that Ryu's jab is 5 frames execution and 2 frames advantage for example.

So he does a crouching jab and you block it. He did a move that took 5 frames to hit you and gave him 2 frames of advantage. So now both of you try to jab right after that in the same moment. If there was no frame advantage/disadvantage, it should come out the same, but that's not true. Now when both of you jab, his jab is 5 frames + 2 frames (from his advantage) while yours is just 5 frames. So since he recieved the advantage from the first clash, you were disadvantaged in the next clash.


As you know, MKDA didn't have much in terms of how moves were done, but MKDA had three types of categories when talking frames.

Execution frames: This indicates how fast a move is, simple enough. There really wasn't any major flaw in how this was executed except for the fluidity of how moves were shown.

On Block frames: This indicates how much of an advantage or disadvantage. Of course MKDA didn't have any frame advantage. What this means is that after every hit you do, after its blocked, you are in disadvantage. However, I'm sure everyone has noted how MKDA has "safe" moves, but you gotta ask, safe from what? Lets say the fastest move in MKDA is an 8 frame jab.

If you throw an attack in MKDA, it will either leave you in 1-7 frame disadvantage or 8+ frame disadvantage. If it's 1-7, you can block and avoid being jabbed/launched/etc. into a combo by blocking the oncoming attack, since at most a -7 frame disadvantage does not gurantee you anything. That is what a safe move is. (Remember, the fastest attack is an 8 frame jab) However, if you do a move that, on block, gives you -8 frame disadvantage, then you can get hit by jabs SINCE it is guranteed. Since you are in -8 disadvantage, if he hits with anything that is 8 or less frames in execution, then he gets it for free. Now, remember that the fastest move in MKDA again is the theoretical 8 frame jab. However, MKDA's 8 frame jab leads to a full-style-branch combo that does 25-40%.

The reason MKDA fails here is because first of all, there is no frame advantage off of anything, which is semi-okay after something is blocked. But what's worse is that the fastest option (the theoretical 8 frame jab), is also one of the most damaging options. So everytime you are disadvantaged enough that you will get hit, you will lose at least 25% or more of your life.

Now imagine this in a Tekken Perspective. Let's say you were playing Tekken 3 or Tekken Tag. I'm sure you know/seen Kazuya's and Jin's 1, 1, 2 string. Two quick jabs and a finishing punch. Now if someone did a move where they were disadvanged enough to get punished, but not disadvantaged enough to get hit by big moves, they would eat that jab string. However, that Jab string is nowhere near 25% hell it's very small.

The problem with MKDA vs. Tekken is that MKDA, if you're disadvantaged enough to gurantee the fastest option then you lost 1/4th of your life bar at least. In Tekken, if you do a move that is near safe, but can still be retaliated at, you will lose only a bit of your life. That's why Tekken has a better risk/reward ratio. So instead of doing a safe move, you pick a move that gives you a little bit more reward than the other move, but also adds a little risk. You do it, it gets blocked, the enemy retaliates and you lost 5-10% of your life. But YOU KNEW that it was the most you could have gotten hit for because it was the least risky move.

Now we look at MKDA. Again, you want to do a move that has a little reward than what your safest tools can offer you, so you decide to do the move, knowing that you should only be risking a little. You know that the move your doing is the closest thing to safety at exactly 8 of disadvantage after its blocked. You do the move, it gets blocked. In MKDA, assuming we're still going with the fact that a jab takes 8 frames to execute, he retaliates with a full-style branch WHICH is guranteed on FIRST hit and begins with the FASTEST move for 8 frames (you were in 8 frame disadvantage after the block, he hit you with an 8 frame jab to start) and you lost 25-40% of your life? That is a big concern of what the hell-factor. So MKDA is reduced to two states. Safe and unsafe. Which isn't how 3d fighters should be. There should be different gradients of risk/reward. I mean if you played Tekken, DoA, VF and everytime you did a move that was close to being safe, but you ate a jab that took away 25-40% of your life, that is how MKDA is.

On Hit frames: This is how fast you recover after you actually land the hit. Generally you are disadvantaged and in MKDA, you are always disadvantaged after a hit. (which is why they rely on guranteed chains so much)

Now you gotta be asking yourself, well where do I fit frame advantage into all of this? We obviously can't put frame advantage after a move gets blocked for half the moves, otherwise people can whore them up and continue their offense as well as being perfectly safe. We obviously can't put frame advantage after half of the on hit moves because it would be silly for someone to hit you normally and get in faster hits (because you add the advantage after it) again and again.

This is where counterhits come in. Now in other games, when you hit someone during the time that they execute their move you get a counter hit. Lets say I'm winding up for this big punch, but instead you hit me with this other move during that wind-up, you get a counterhit. VF calls this Major Counters, DoA calls it Hi-Counters, etc.

What's nice about a counterhit is that generally, you get frame advantage. So lets say I attack you, you counter hit me before my attack lands, now your REWARD for attacking me in that time is that you get frame advantage. This will allow you to continue your offense and make me play defensively.

What this also enables is that usage of the slower and unsafer moves. So lets say you are playing Sub-Zero and you have this ridiculously slow and unsafe move. However, if you get a counterhit off of it, it actually gives you advantage enough to continue your offense. So the reward for doing this crappy slow and unasfe move is actually GOOD when you counterhit. So, besides basic mixup (when your move lands), you can use it to disturb and regain initiative forcing your opponent into defense. This is why frame-advantage is so vital for balancing out moves. For moves that have slow execution, there has to be a reason to use them besides damage (unless the damage is like 20-30% of your lifebar), this is that reason. Since none of the slower attacks in MKDA even did 10% of your lifebar, you never saw the slower more useless moves. This is why all of those slower moves should have given frame advantage... but of course MKDA didn't have a counterhit system, so you couldn't fit frame advantage anywhere.

There are other factors to consider besides frame advantage that I won't cover here, but other move properties may change after counterhits to make a move good also. Lets say you have a character with a good low, does okay damage moves at decent speed and is decently safe. Now you have this other low attack, which does very little damage and isn't as safe, BUT if you counterhit with it, you get 5 frame advantage AND it knocks the enemy down. (move properties)

So that's it in a nutshell... hmm I tried to do it in less words, but er.. didn't work out.

The easiest way to explain it is this. Go to the following site and look at Jacky's movelist.
http://virtuafighter.com/commands/index.php?chara=jacky&ver;=evob

Notice all the numbers in the columns next to it?
Now look at the legend and see what those categories mean.
http://virtuafighter.com/commands/legend.html

And that's pretty much it for frame data, frame advantage, and frame disadvantage.

Awesome. That was a great explanation. Even if it was not intended to me, Thanks a lot!