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Gameplay & Strategy
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Satyagraha
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"You see, I face a whole new Monster!! I face a man, who represents, the Nintendo Entertainment System..."

 •08/30/2004 02:21 AM (UTC) •
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I don't know if it will be one of the "best" fighters out there if those things are delt with. Those are things that should be dealt with in the first place; they shouldn't be treated like a luxary or some brillant feature that makes it great.

Though, perhaps peeps will look at it, maybe give it a chance, then walk away. Instead of looking at it, then laughing. grin Now there seams to actually be something to look at, which is more than can be said for DA.

I'm glad the SP button was taken out. That was such a joke. Makes it easy for stick players, too, lol. tongue
I also didn't enjoy how everyone seems to have one throw.

But.. what can we expect.. this isn't our game. We're asking too much from a game that does offer a lot.

Maybe MK7 will be the definitive fighting game.. but since MK is simple in nature, which a lot of people refuse to grasp, its like.. what do you expect?

Long live MK, even if it is something a monkey can understand!
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mkraiden
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---
MKRAIDEN

 •08/30/2004 03:18 AM (UTC) •
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You raise some good points, while I do not agree with everything you have to say the side-stepping issue is one that I think needs to be addressed. It seems when I play I can either always side step or never side step, and I believe that goes to your 50/50 argument. I also do agree 100% with 80% or more of characters move sets being useless, or maybe a better term would be unrewarding. I do believe though that one problem MK faces over other competitors is the additon of "mystical moves" I think slightly more emphesis on these moves could drasticaly change the way MKD handles as a game.

Another thing that sorta has got me down about MK:DA gameplay... I think blocking should be handled differently. Blocking in mkda would prevent you from taking damage, however usally when you blocking something you can come back again with another move... Mk should incoperate a smart blocking system, where as let's say you a high kick, the block would not simply stop the attack, but leave you with a chance to throw a counter attack, not as wide as a reversal, but enough to shift the battle back and forth... then the player could have a choice.. a quick strike to stop the attack, another block, or something of that nature. Im sorry I didn't describe what I was thinking very well.. Just think of a martial arts fight.. where it's not simply one fighter punches and kicks, and either combos, or get's block... but rather a constant exchance of varrying blows, block, reversals, and evasions at varying depths to create an experience where knowledge of moves and how your oppoenet moves becomes vital, not what 6 moves repeated will lead to victory. If that could be achieved I would be happy.. not even in Tekken, or VF has that level been quite laid out.
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sickman
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 •08/30/2004 04:09 AM (UTC) •
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thats true, but it would overcomplicate the fight unless it was done seamlessly
mkraiden Wrote:
You raise some good points, while I do not agree with everything you have to say the side-stepping issue is one that I think needs to be addressed. It seems when I play I can either always side step or never side step, and I believe that goes to your 50/50 argument. I also do agree 100% with 80% or more of characters move sets being useless, or maybe a better term would be unrewarding. I do believe though that one problem MK faces over other competitors is the additon of "mystical moves" I think slightly more emphesis on these moves could drasticaly change the way MKD handles as a game.

Another thing that sorta has got me down about MK:DA gameplay... I think blocking should be handled differently. Blocking in mkda would prevent you from taking damage, however usally when you blocking something you can come back again with another move... Mk should incoperate a smart blocking system, where as let's say you a high kick, the block would not simply stop the attack, but leave you with a chance to throw a counter attack, not as wide as a reversal, but enough to shift the battle back and forth... then the player could have a choice.. a quick strike to stop the attack, another block, or something of that nature. Im sorry I didn't describe what I was thinking very well.. Just think of a martial arts fight.. where it's not simply one fighter punches and kicks, and either combos, or get's block... but rather a constant exchance of varrying blows, block, reversals, and evasions at varying depths to create an experience where knowledge of moves and how your oppoenet moves becomes vital, not what 6 moves repeated will lead to victory. If that could be achieved I would be happy.. not even in Tekken, or VF has that level been quite laid out.

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HDTran
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I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

 •08/30/2004 04:23 AM (UTC) •
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mkraiden Wrote:
You raise some good points, while I do not agree with everything you have to say the side-stepping issue is one that I think needs to be addressed. It seems when I play I can either always side step or never side step, and I believe that goes to your 50/50 argument. I also do agree 100% with 80% or more of characters move sets being useless, or maybe a better term would be unrewarding. I do believe though that one problem MK faces over other competitors is the additon of "mystical moves" I think slightly more emphesis on these moves could drasticaly change the way MKD handles as a game.

Another thing that sorta has got me down about MK:DA gameplay... I think blocking should be handled differently. Blocking in mkda would prevent you from taking damage, however usally when you blocking something you can come back again with another move... Mk should incoperate a smart blocking system, where as let's say you a high kick, the block would not simply stop the attack, but leave you with a chance to throw a counter attack, not as wide as a reversal, but enough to shift the battle back and forth... then the player could have a choice.. a quick strike to stop the attack, another block, or something of that nature. Im sorry I didn't describe what I was thinking very well.. Just think of a martial arts fight.. where it's not simply one fighter punches and kicks, and either combos, or get's block... but rather a constant exchance of varrying blows, block, reversals, and evasions at varying depths to create an experience where knowledge of moves and how your oppoenet moves becomes vital, not what 6 moves repeated will lead to victory. If that could be achieved I would be happy.. not even in Tekken, or VF has that level been quite laid out.

Raiden, this is what frame advantage and frame disadvantage is. In MKDA, there wasn't any frame advantage, but there was frame disadvantage. Many moves in MK weren't "safe", the state of not being safe after a block and having a delay that allows your opponent to retaliate is frame disadvantage. In other 3d fighters, the jab and the slower moves and Counterhits of the normal moves give you slight to heavy frame advantage. Which basically lets you recover faster than the enemy and continue your offense. The thing with MKDA is

Many fighters such as Tekken, Virtua Fighter, etc. have pulled it off perfectly already. Go to virtuafighter.com or tekkenzaibatsu.com and look at a movelist, you will notice charts of numbers of how many frames it takes to execute a move, its frame advantage/disadvantage after a block, its frame advantage/disadvantage after a normal move, its frame advantage/disadvantage after a minor counterhit (when you hit the opponent during their frame disadvantage) and its frame advantage/disadvantage after a major counterhit (when you hit the opponent during the execution of a move).

So yeah, other 3d fighters are really complex about recovery and retaliation of every move in every situation, whereas MK is not. MK basically is safe (0 frame disadvantage, but 0 frame advantage as well), moderately safe/unsafe, and unsafe. And since as Satya has pointed out, without a counterhit system that works along with frame advantage/disadvantage, it's hard to make MK really balanced in uses for moves.
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HDTran
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I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

 •08/30/2004 04:26 AM (UTC) •
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No special move button is owned, although Subby needs a damage up or Neijin =P Otherwise he is just gonna do ice clone tactics all day.
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Satyagraha
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"You see, I face a whole new Monster!! I face a man, who represents, the Nintendo Entertainment System..."

 •08/30/2004 04:34 AM (UTC) •
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sickman Wrote:
thats true, but it would overcomplicate the fight unless it was done seamlessly
out.

What he's describing is similar to frame advantage, which HDT eplained in this thread, heh. tongue

It does not over complicate the fight; it makes it, well, a fight, lol. The entire point of frame advantage is to help give meaning to moves. It's up to the player to find the meaning. Where as in DA, everthing was almost utterly useless, aka meaningless, in practical situations.

If implemented correctly - as everything should strive for, anyways - the player wouldn't even notice it unless they're the kind that wanted to. For purposes of obtaining a greater understanding of the game.
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Satyagraha
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"You see, I face a whole new Monster!! I face a man, who represents, the Nintendo Entertainment System..."

 •08/30/2004 04:42 AM (UTC) •
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HDTran Wrote:
No special move button is owned, although Subby needs a damage up or Neijin =P Otherwise he is just gonna do ice clone tactics all day.

Wonder if he'll have punch freezes again, lol. That would be too good.
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TonyTheTiger
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 •08/30/2004 04:55 PM (UTC) •
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Overall, I'm just glad this game is looking actually like over the top Mortal Kombat rather than the boring slap fest that DA was.
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Satyagraha
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"You see, I face a whole new Monster!! I face a man, who represents, the Nintendo Entertainment System..."

 •08/30/2004 06:02 PM (UTC) •
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^^^
Exactly. It's nice to actually get an MK game, lol.
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MrSchpfmut
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 •08/30/2004 06:02 PM (UTC) •
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Satyagraha Wrote:
Wonder if he'll have punch freezes again, lol. That would be too good.


Wait, did you just reference to something called a buffer?????? OMGGGGG!!!11!1

Seriously though, I would love to see some spammable stuff. If you could buffer a special move into your attacks (as the old Mks did) it would open up a lot of doors that were simply just NOT possible in DA.

On the other hand it could seriously break some characters. But broken characters are more fun to play with than stiff ones.

I could see the spamming now...
Nightwolf, Taw Kwon Doe - Shoulder rush...
Hotaru, Pi Gua - Fireball juggle...
Sub-Zero, Anything - Clone...

I want to bring up breakers again real quick (sorry i haven't had time to read everything blah blah blah), but in one of the new gameplay videos it definately shows Scorpion do a combo-breaker after hit! I'm not sure if it requires timing or anything to pull off, but it happened. It's at the very beginning of the Scorp vs Diarou vid.

In that same fight Scorpion is landing hits, and when the last punch is thrown Diarou ducks and launches Scorpion with his sword. Was that a whiff by Scorp, or what happened there?
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TonyTheTiger
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TonyTheTiger - Forum Director

Mortal Kombat Online - The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
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Nintendo is comprised of three Japanese words. Nin, Ten, Dou, and when combined it means we kicked the holy shit outta Atari.

 •08/30/2004 07:41 PM (UTC) •
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Yeah, I'm not saying that I think everyone is going to start praising MK:D's engine or anything. It may not be trying to do many things so it's not going to be revolutionary. But I'd at least like to see it decent enough so that everything it does try to do is done right.
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sushix
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 •08/30/2004 09:00 PM (UTC) •
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I really wish someone at Midway would read your posts. Unfortunately, I doubt they will implement those things in this incarnation of Mortal Kombat. One thing they can do, however, is fix those annoying glitches you mentioned in one of your posts, especially the backdash cancel glitch which allows some seriously broken shit to be done. Is Midway even aware of these glitches? Why haven't testers pointed out these glitches before? Someone should really just mail them a list of glitches that need to be fixed for Deception. Having universal tracking in a fighting game today is just embarrassing...

Oh, and if this is not worth any dragon points then what the hell is?
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HDTran
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I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

 •08/30/2004 11:40 PM (UTC) •
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Has move cancels into specials been confirmed or are you guys just pulling my chain? =P

Oh yeah, how would you guys map MKD buttons on a joystick?
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TonyTheTiger
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TonyTheTiger - Forum Director

Mortal Kombat Online - The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
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Nintendo is comprised of three Japanese words. Nin, Ten, Dou, and when combined it means we kicked the holy shit outta Atari.

 •08/31/2004 12:16 AM (UTC) •
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I'd do it like this on an arcade board.

.........1......2...
..CS.....B.......
.........3......4...

Maybe

.......1...2...3...4...
CS....B................
............................
Or

...1...2...3........
...4...B...CS....
........................
Those are the only ways I can imagine it working. Too many damn buttons.
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MrSchpfmut
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 •08/31/2004 12:23 AM (UTC) •
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HDTran Wrote:
Has move cancels into specials been confirmed or are you guys just pulling my chain? =P

Oh yeah, how would you guys map MKD buttons on a joystick?


No, I'm just kinda in my own dream world that Ed would do something he had in Mk 1!

What kind of stick do you have? A 3x2, or?
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HDTran
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I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

 •08/31/2004 12:27 AM (UTC) •
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Those are some pretty good configs tony, trying to think of some logical positions to put em.

I have several panels and sticks, but mostly those are either 2 rows of 3 buttons or 2 rows of 4 buttons. I have an X-Arcade as well too (although I swapped every button and stick on the damn thing and plugged up buttons I wouldnt use)

But with the X-Arcade allowing the most customization

There's three rows. The top two rows have three butons. The bottom row has two butons (left button and middle button), but its slightly shifted to the left to allow Neo Geo configuration, which I have plugged up for the time being. None of my sticks have a perfect middle button to make an oldschool MK layout though.
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MrSchpfmut
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 •08/31/2004 12:39 AM (UTC) •
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Cool, I have an Xarcade too. I'll probably have something like this if I decide to play on a stick. [Xarcade] Sort of like SC2...
1..2..SC
3..4..
BLK

[2x3]
CS..1..2
BLK..3..2
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Satyagraha
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"You see, I face a whole new Monster!! I face a man, who represents, the Nintendo Entertainment System..."

 •08/31/2004 01:56 AM (UTC) •
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Yah, HDT, just dreamin' like Mr.S said, lol.

I'm prolly going to make another custom just for D. MK3+ cp style, but a little tighter on the button layout than most cabs have them.

If not then I'll just use my other. SF style layout, 1-4 on the far right buttons. To the left of those I'll have block on the button and CS on top.
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mastermalone
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•08/31/2004 02:52 AM (UTC) •
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HDTran Wrote:

Oh yeah, how would you guys map MKD buttons on a joystick?


For MKDA my arcade stick was set up as follows:

CS...1..2..No use on this button
Blk..3..4..SM

It worked very well for the game, the CS button could be positioned on the No use side as well if desired. I was never able to play a fighter using a pad and I applaud those who have no trouble pulling off those branch combos with a pad. It was really easy with an arcade stick, almost like typing in the combo.


Take care

TonyTheTiger Wrote:
I'd do it like this on an arcade board.

.........1......2...
..CS.....B.......
.........3......4...

Maybe

.......1...2...3...4...
CS....B................
............................
Or

...1...2...3........
...4...B...CS....
........................
Those are the only ways I can imagine it working. Too many damn buttons.


TAKE out the CS button and make it a motion... Problem solved...............
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HDTran
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I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

 •09/01/2004 02:41 AM (UTC) •
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Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'll definately try to use em. I didn't use a stick before because 7 buttons is just really impractical.

HDTran Wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'll definately try to use em. I didn't use a stick before because 7 buttons is just really impractical.


They really should chop it back down to 5 buttons, High Punch, Low Punch, Low Kick, and High Kick, and Block. Forget this 1-2-3-4 nonsense.

Bring it back!

Thats the most buttons it should have...

Give command presses to Style changes and special moves, two buttons gone right there....

Give MK7 diagonal commands.............
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TonyTheTiger
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TonyTheTiger - Forum Director

Mortal Kombat Online - The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
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Nintendo is comprised of three Japanese words. Nin, Ten, Dou, and when combined it means we kicked the holy shit outta Atari.

 •09/01/2004 03:54 AM (UTC) •
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Maybe the throw system has been reworked but it still looks like Deception doesn't have wakeup. There really isn't any footage of someone staying on the ground but in the Kobra vs. Scorpion vid it looks like Scorpion may have done his hellfire as a wakeup move but who knows. Anyone have other vids or thoughts supporting or against this?
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Satyagraha
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"You see, I face a whole new Monster!! I face a man, who represents, the Nintendo Entertainment System..."

 •09/01/2004 05:35 AM (UTC) •
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For a loooong time I've been pissed about not having command wakeups. Now, I don't like the idea of not being able to lay there, tech when I want to, or get up when I want to. That is pretty lame. The more I've been thinking about this, though, the more I think there will still be wake up games, serious wake up games. Just not the traditionl "3D style." I think a more 2d approach will/is be(ing) taken, weather that is by choice or not I have no clue.

Instead of taking random supers or dp's on wake up, peeps will be taking random canned spam, mix ups and so forth. I'd feel much more comfortable with this thought if I believed a buffer exists, but I don't, lol.

Also, do my eyes decive me, or at 1:46 in the Scorp vs. Darrius vid: Did scorp get anti aired' with a poke? Good stuff if so.
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