I don't ever reading that Sindel's powers were dependant on Shao Kahn. I always took her as an Edenian martial artist who killed herself, and then was raised from the dead with new powers. I never thought of them as leaving her when she left Kahn's control.

I always assumed that she was killed during Shinnok's take-over of Edenia in MK4, which would explain why she was not there fighting for her realm. That Kitana was still "Princess" Kitana sort of always contradicted that, though. So I'm sort of glad she came back for Deception, and if they had done a true sequel to Deception, I would have liked to have seen her come back for one more round of Mortal Kombat -- perhaps with Jade being killed during the final battle against Onaga, while Kitana was killed by a pissed off Raiden afterwards (I liked the way he killed Shujinko in an ending because Jinny failed Earthrealm -- I could see him giving the same treatment to Kung Lao, Kitana, Sonya Blade, Jax and Johnny Cage for letting themselves fall under Onaga's spell).

The idea of a Sindel dressed in a little more black (maybe black ribbons around her wrists) to mourn the deaths of her ally and her daughter intrigues me. I don't think they should step away from the evil banshee vibes, because they are the powers Sindel now has, even though she is technically a white hat now.

But, that being said, they didn't do a true sequel to Deception, and now they're resetting the series, so I think Sindel will just pass away during or after the events of Armageddon.

Sindel will never pass away because then Kitana won't be a princess anymore.

As you've all seen in the past games, Kitana's design, personality, and overall theme is based on the whole "warrior princess" thing, and the devs are not gonna take that away.

If Sindel dies, then Kitana becomes queen and she'll lose all her floweriness and cutesiness in order to behave more majestic and intelligent like a queen (like Sindel) is supposed to.

That'll never happen since the devs obviously love branding her the soft pretty princess of MK.

So Sindel will remain Queen, like Wonder Woman's mother, just for the sake of letting her daughter continue being a warrior princess.

Anyway, I think Sindel deserves another chance. Her MKD and MKA versions were so dissappointing. Her design and special moves are far more superior and appealing then most characters, so she should return vastly improved.

As You-Know-Who said, while Sindel's powers may have come from the resurrection and Shao Kahn, they're not dependent on him.

Personally, I like that she looks like she still looks like a crazy-evil banshee even though she's been freed and is good. I like the contrast and I also think it's kind of cool that even though she's free from Kahn, his mark is still on her.
Some people would say as Queen she should dress more like one...whatever that means, I mean it's not like there's a "Queen Handbook" that states as a rule how one should dress...but fuck them.
Sindel looks good as a dominatrix.


As for her future, frankly I might rather Sindel goes.
I think they should streamline the cast & storyline and Sindel's become excess baggage. The entire realm of Edenia, for that matter, could burn down. It's become boring & redundant and it's only holding down the characters involved.

Although, if Edenia were be nuked, then maybe something interesting could be done with Sindel. Where would she go if her realm was gone?
But, I don't think it'd be a big loss if Sindel was killed off.

The thing about Sindel is that all of her problems are synonymous with Kitana's. There's not one interesting thing Sindel can really do that the more human face of Kitana cannot also do, and arguably better. She was a plot device in MK3, which is why she was there, and she was brought back to get some older characters some air-time in Deception, which is why she was there.

I don't see why they cannot have the Edenia storyline completely dropped, with Kitana finally finding peace -- or have Kitana become the new Queen, and take things forward from there. You need a compelling reason for Sindel to return, and the best I can come up with for her is a mother that had to bury her daughter. Even that is a little cliche, but it may work.

No.

What she needs is a new conflict. Anytime a character completes a story, they move on to another. It is the way of most comics, games, and tv series.

They need to introduce a catalyst that gives Sindel a new purpose. Reason why she's stale is because she's used up all her tricks. So she needs a new bag... HAS been needing a new bag, yet the devs haven't spent a minute to give her one.

It could be a new villain, a special object, an important event, an unexpected calling, a surprising goal, even a retcon, etc. So many ways to make a fantasy character work.

And don't pretend, Xia. Kitana is as stale as her. Only difference between them now is that she's the Champion's girlfriend.

Anyway, I prefer both Sindel and Kitana to return simply because they both offer great, fun gameplay potential. And you bio buffs keep denying that first and foremost, MK is a game series. If story were the priority, then the past 2 installments would have had better ones.

I agree, for the most part.

I think in the long run...and even though I like the contrast between she being good and how she looks...I think it was ultimately a mistake to have Sindel get fully free from Shao Kahn and turn totally good. It probably would've been better for her to turn on Kahn, but not turn completely good again...thus you could have the conflict between her and Kitana continue.

At the time, the happy resolution was fine, but now Sindel doesn't really have anywhere further to go. Like you said, at least nowhere her more fleshed out and developed daughter can't.
They could just retire Edenia and that whole sub-plot. Kitana becoming Queen of Edenia is the end of her story. There's nowhere for her to go from there.

If they were to bring them both back, something I could think to do would be to play up Kitana abandoning Edenia and that causing friction between her and Sindel.
Beyond that, I really couldn't tell you what Sindel could do though. And like I said, I'm more for streamlining the cast and story.

I don't know, I think there's plenty of original ideas left that could continue after Kitana becoming queen. Maybe the next MK game could take place in the far future, and Liu Kang and Kitana could have a kid who's playable, named Jin. You know, something totally new and original.

I've got to "LOL" at the above post, and agree that there is a lot that Kitana can do after becoming Queen. I also have to agree with Xia's analysis, and agree that there is not much to do with Sindel. Especially when you consider that her story is essentially Kitana's story.

As much as I like Sindel, I understand XiahouDun84's points about getting rid of her as a means of streamlining the story. One thing that I don't like is that they haven't shown much of Sindel's capabilities and actions as Queen of Edenia. In MK4 and MK: Deadly Alliance, you don't really get any bits of information as to what happened to her.

As Edenia's queen, I would think that she would also get involved with political and military matters. However, we don't really see this and therefore, a sense of depth and importance to Sindel's character is taken away. This isn't to say that Kitana should not get involved with military and political matters, but Sindel should be the higher authority that gets involved as well.

So if Sindel is to return, I feel that we need more insight into her character and how she does things. Kitana had been raised by Shao Kahn to become one of his top warrior assassins. Her role as Edenia's princess came after Edenia's separation from Outworld. So with that said, Sindel obviously has far more experience ruling Edenia than Kitana, and this is something that should be shown.

If both Sindel and Kitana are to return, Kitana could go in a different direction and have Sindel be the one ruling Edenia as its queen. Perhaps some things happen later that force Sindel to make decisions that her people will not like, even if they are as a means of saving her realm. So maybe, what can be explored is what her price is, so to speak. That is unless she is the type that does not compromise to enemy powers, even if it would lead to the destruction of her realm and its people.

This is my 2 cents for now.

I don't think killing off characters automatically makes the story or other characters more interesting. I think that is a predictable move done for shock value as a substitute for trying do something creative with characters.

Sindel is a 10,000 + year old undead magical queen who saw her husband murdered on the battlefield and her daughter raised by her husband's murderer and her people enslaved. Then she killed herself. Why? I find it hard to believe that she would kill herself and leave her daughter behind at Shao Kahn's mercy. That has never been explored to my knowledge.

After being resurrected and saved by her daughter they managed to restore their realm and continue to aid earthrealm against Shao Kahn.

How is that stale and uninteresting again guys?
I also like the fact that Sindel is a rarity in gaming. A female character that isn't in her 20s. Makes her more unique and interesting.
Then there is the other hand to consider. This is a fighting game and Sindel has one of the coolest visual designs and more unique movesets that has potential to be developed further.

She is fun to use I don't want to sacrifice her for another Taven, Daegon, Shujinko, or Dairou.

Something else to consider too is that WB owns these characters now. That includes names, trademarks and images. These characters are commodities more so than before.

I agree, but I think that for the sake of streamlining the story and roster as opposed to overdoing it like in MK: Armageddon, it does make sense to get rid of characters like Sindel.



From what is known, it can be assumed that she couldn't handle what was going on. It was kind of a poor move on her part in that she left Kitana behind. Then again, it's not like she would have any real control over raising her with Shao Kahn in her life.



One of the issues that is brought up is that Sindel (and Jade) have the same essential goals that Kitana has but there isn't as much character development. Sindel has only been in MK3/UMK3/MKT, MKD/MKU, and MKA. Her MKD story is somewhat of a reversal of Kitana's MK3 story, and in MKA, we don't get a bio for Sindel.

Another issue is that we see Kitana's actions with diplomatic and military matters yet we don't really see such with Sindel's character, despite the fact that Sindel is the Queen of Edenia. So what I'm saying is that Sindel is overshadowed by Kitana.

There needs to be an exploration into Sindel's character as well as a real sense of conflict for her if she's going to return.



I like that too, but that's not enough to keep her around.



Movesets can change. Her gameplay in MKD and MKA was pretty bad, especially in MKA since she didn't have Fu Jow Pai.



Yes, but that doesn't mean that characters like Sindel will necessarily continue on. Don't get me wrong. I like the character, and it would be nice to see her return given touch-ups here and there. It's just that good effort needs to be taken to bring out the best in her.

Exactly. It's the lazy way out.



Bingo!

Story advocates always fail (or refuse) to acknowledge this.

The priority should be the funnness, or at least potential funness (since she sucked in her mkd/mka version) of the characters. Not their little bios. It would be shameful and disgraceful to dispose of such a unique design and moveset, especially when characters like Scorpion have evaded "death" time after time on account of their popular designs and movesets alone.

Anyways, well said Thrawn. Bravo.

I also think that could be said for characters like Baraka, Reptile, Sonya, and Frost: Dead-end storylines, but cool moves and designs to compensate, and thus, justify their presence.

Let me respond to some of what you said Sub Zero 7th.

Let me see here.

1. It doesn't make sense to streamline the story to me by getting rid of characters like Sindel or Sonya. Get rid of Bo Rai Cho and Dairou or Lei Mei instead. My opinion of course.

2. In regards to Sindel's suicide you wrote that it could be assumed that she couldn't handle what was happening. You are correct that you can make that assumption. You could also make several other ones as well and they would be just a correct.

Maybe she was in fact trying to kill both herself and her daughter to save them from Shao Kahn and she failed. Maybe she killed herself in an attempt to save some Edenian magic or secrets from Shao Kahn. While your assumption could be correct I personally find it hard to believe that she would just abandon her daughter to Shao Kahn without a fight considering the fact that in mkd she wouldn't even strike her own daughter to escape.

3. You said there needs to be an exploration of Sindel's character as well as a sense of conflict for her if she is to return.

Umm..that was essentially my point. There is so much potential in the character that is wasted if you just kill her off for the arbitrary reason of "Hey let's streamline the story." You don't get exploration of characters if they are dead. I'm just saying.

4. You said movesets can change. I agree. You said her gameplay wasn't that good in mkd or mka. I agree. That doesn't make her special moves any less cool, it just means they need to be balanced and added to.

5. You said that she needs some touch ups here and there and that a real good effort needs to be made to bring out the best in her.

On that point we are in complete agreement my good fellow.


Thank you for the kind words QueenSindel(the Bitch.). I thought you might agree with me on this one.

For Sonya, I can see what you're saying about it not making any sense to get rid of her to streamline the story. She can be considered a protagonist, and she's also a fan favorite. As I said in my previous post in this thread, one of the issues with Sindel is that she is overshadowed by Kitana.

Sindel may be the Queen of Edenia, but it is Kitana's role as Princess of Edenia that shines by seeing her directly involved with military and diplomatic issues. This is the kind of stuff that we should mainly see from Sindel, who has far more experience ruling Edenia. It almost feels as if Sindel is obsolete in being a ruler of Edenia. Essentially, her story involves ruling Edenia and aiding the heroes, which is exactly the same thing that Kitana's story has.

Jade has a very similar issue in which she's good, aids her allies, and defends Edenia. Although I like both Sindel and Jade, it would make sense to get rid of both for streamlining the story, because they don't have much going for them.

You mentioned Bo' Rai Cho, Dairou, and Li Mei. I would agree on the first two, even though I like Bo' Rai Cho and kind of like Dairou. Dairou can kind of easily be taken out of the story. Bo' Rai Cho's case is different in that he has more going for him than what most people realize.

They look too much on the exterior of the character, which is kind of funny, because that's EXACTLY what Bo' Rai Cho wants his enemies to do when facing them in combat. By underestimating him, they can let their guard down, and they are in for a surprise when Bo' Rai Cho shows what he's actually made of.

To digress, why I think that Bo' Rai Cho could be killed off for streamlining the story is to give a sense of ending to his story. He could die as a legend of some sort. It can be the catalyst to affecting certain other characters, such as Li Mei or Kung Lao. However, he could also return and be a mentor/teacher.

As for Li Mei, I would have to disagree with you. There are people that don't like her, but the thing is, she has good potential to be her own protagonist or antagonist, depending on how her story develops.



You could be right. Either way, that sort of thing is better explored in a backstory game. Personally, I'd love to see a backstory game focused on Shao Kahn.



I had already brought up the idea of a need for her to have exploration into her character as well as a sense of conflict. To me, some characters have more/better potential than other characters. You may or may not see it that way, but I do.

Streamlining the story isn't the ultimate reason behind the idea of killing off characters such as her. There is a reason behind it (at least in her case). Like I said, Kitana overshadows Sindel. With Sindel having been alive (so to speak) after MK3 and her resuming her position as the Queen of Edenia, we should have seen what she has said and done.

You had MK4's rather flimsy story and MK: Deadly Alliance's Konquest stories. We see Kitana's actions as Princess of Edenia, but we don't get a glimpse of what Sindel has done.

While I think that Sindel has potential, and while I wouldn't mind seeing her return, her potential simply isn't as great as that of other characters'. Just because a character has potential doesn't necessarily mean that it's worth exploring it. Essentially, this is an issue in which everyone is more or less biased.

If Sindel is going to return, and if her potential is going to be explored, it better be worth it, otherwise, it's a waste of time.



That's not the real issue. Even if her gameplay can be made better, that doesn't mean much. Anyone's gameplay can be made better. That doesn't mean that I want to see that particular character return. If Mortal Kombat didn't have a story to it or whatever, I wouldn't really care. Then again, Tekken and Soul Calibur have stories, but I don't care about theirs. I just play those games very casually.



Yes. I just don't know if it's really worth it. Sure, Sindel fans are going to be quick to say that it is worth it, regardless if they care about the story or not. But hey, there are people who don't care about MK's story yet they don't want Sindel to return.

I personally would have liked to have seen some conflict between her and Kitana when it came to some diplomatic and military affairs. Kitana could have made decisions that Sindel would not have approved of. Had there been elements like this, both of their stories and characters would have had more going for them.

Granted, this could still happen, but I think that having those types of developments should have been shown earlier on. With the lack of real story and character development along with Kitana's developments, Sindel might as well pass on the title of Queen of Edenia to her, not that I necessarily want that to happen.

Haven't read everything in here, but Sindel immediately became one of my favorite female designs. Same sort of thing happened with Sareena and Sonya actually.

She's different, like different category of woman character in video games in general. She's older instead of brightly blooming 20's in age and appearance like QS(tb) said, and her design and playability appeal because of her specifics.

It just is what it is.

That said though, her story is dead. I mean of course, if theirs something interesting enough that they could do with her, then yea, keep her around. But on the other end of that spectrum, everything that relates to why she would act is done.

Who's she going to react to now, Rain, Taven, Shujinko...Argus? Who's she going to provoke now, Kitana?

Why would any of that be worth any substance?

It's for this view point that Id' love to see her come back for "special editions" or "Trilogy"-type games only. The glory and the challenge in her sort of character is not to overuse the things that are specific to her. No flying women...no sonic screams...the nails in her martial arts style...ect.

Other than that I think she'd be better going back to sleep in the canon. I think I'd appreciate her when I did see her more that way.

Sub Zero 7th wrote: I personally think Kitana needs to be used better myself. I'm sure you do too. However ask yourself why does Kitana overshadow Sindel? I think it is because Sindel hasn't been used properly. They are mother and daughter. They saw their family and realm destroyed in front of them and saw their people enslaved. Sindel was dead and then resurrected. Kitana was raised and trained to be a personal assassin by Shao Kahn. If you think about it, Kitana isn't really a pure Edenian. Sindel is. There is a lot of room for potential drama and exploration between the two characters. I think anyways. And I disagree with you. Lei Mei. Peaceful villager. Fighting to free her people from Quan Chi and Shang Tsung. Basically female Liu Kang. No thanks. I would love that myself and have often thought about how cool it could be. I agree with you that some characters have more potential than others. We obviously disagree about Sindel. I see much more potential in a mother who watched her husband murdered on the battlefield and saw her people enslaved and then committed suicide. Then she gets resurrected by the guy who murders her husband to be his wife only to destroy another realm. Then gets saved by her daughter who she hasn't seen in 10000 years only to see her now as a woman who has been raised by the creature that destroyed her life and realm. I find that much more interesting than just hero warrior princess. I feel the same way about Johnny Cage, Liu kang, Dairou, Darius, Lei Mei, Bo Rai Cho, and Shujinko. It's a big issue to me. If a character isn't fun to use than I am not going to miss them much from future games. No matter how much I like the story of a given character this is a fighting game first and foremost. Not a RPG or mmo. Game play matters to me. Sindel's is unique and fun to use. That is a big ace in the hole for her. Some of that could have been fun. However I caution against conflict for the sake of conflict. That is a very quick refuge a lot of writers take. That can be very predictable and boring. "Ooooo look at me I'm conflicted. Look at how interesting I am." Some differences of opinion or philosophy could be intriguing. Remember Kitana was raised in Outworld by Shao Kahn. That hasn't been explored much either in my opinion.

Arguing over who should return over the other is pointless. Kitana will always be the priority because of her popularity.

I think anyone with good taste would agree, however, that Sindel's backstory is far more deep and interesting than Kitana's.

Anyway, a no-brainer solution to Sindel's staleness has already been done with Raiden:

Sindel and Raiden are both realm protectors: Same ordinary goals and overdone crap. But after consecutive failure to secure his realm, Raiden has essentially taken a darker, cold-blooded approach at defending it, presumably, out of desperation or frustration or both.

This is basically the route I think Sindel should be taken in, especially considering she is a sweetheart. The contrast between her gentle, spiritual nature and a darker, viscious one would be much more striking.

Raiden's dark twist would have made more sense for Sindel anyway cuz considering Edenia is a realm of peace, maybe a more effecient way to secure it would be for its leader to drop the softness and kindness and take things more seriously. It seems to me like that is the most logic next step Edenia could take.

I don't think she should become "Dark Sindel" (as if she could look any darker, really), but through her actions and change of attitude, she could show us a changed Sindel who's taking drastic, surprising measures to protect her realm unlike ever before.

This change I don't think would suit Kitana since she's second in command. It just wouldn't make as much sense for her. Ugh, especially since her personality has been repeatedly shown to be dictated by the stereotypical princess title she so proudly carries.

Anyway yeah. For both Sindel and Edenia, a loss of beauty and peace-mindedness in place of a darker, harsher attitude is something I think is just waiting to happen.

Would it really give her much more to work with? No. Yet Raiden's goals and problems haven't changed either. He is still bent on doing the same thing he was doing in MK1. It would however shine a new light on Sindel, and also upgrade her storyline from its "dead" status. Though it would be a step forward, it's up to a writer's talent how creative and full of potential it would make her storyline.

Yes.



Correct.



No, Kitana is a pure Edenian. Both of her parents are Edenians unless Jerrod and/or Sindel have ancestry from races that come from other realms.



I don't know about "a lot", but I would at least agree that there is potential for such things.



How does that make her a "female Liu Kang"? If anything, it makes her more like a next-gen Sonya. In MK1, Sonya was trying to free her comrades. Admittedly, I wasn't really a fan of her (or Bo' Rai Cho, for that matter) in MKDA, but I grew to appreciate them when they returned in MKD. She may have been a "peaceful villager", but she's also a martial artist who has an aptitude for learning martial arts.

In MKD, she is struggling with the taint in her soul as she is being involved with Outworld military combined with Edenian forces to take down Onaga's Tarkatan forces. So whether you like her or not, her story indicates that she has potential to develop into the protagonist of the Outworld sub-plot. However, given the taint in her soul, which could become worse later on, she also has the potential to become an antagonist.

Btw, her name is spelled Li Mei. Not to sound like a spelling nazi, but I just don't understand why some people get that wrong.



Yep.



Yes, I know that it's a fighting game series. Gameplay is important to me too, both the technical stuff (not that I'm well versed in that stuff, mind you) and the fun factor. Yes, I could agree that Sindel is unique. Being fun to use is rather subjective.

For me, she's ok in terms of fun factor. I sort of like her better in MK3-MKT though I agree with the choice of Chaquan (Zha Chuan) for her. However, not having her continue on doesn't necessarily take all that much away from having a roster of characters with diverse and unique gameplay styles.

Maybe if they don't think of anything good for Sindel in terms of the story, they could just have her be an unlockable character to play as, sort of like in some of the Tekken and Soul Calibur games.



I see what you're saying, and I agree. It has to be done well in order to make it interesting.



That would probably work best in an MK Mythologies type game that centers around Kitana's backstory. I would like to see that as well. However, you could also have a character from Kitana's past that could appear in a future MK game. That character could shed some light on Kitana's days as one of Shao Kahn's warrior assassins.

-----------------------------



That's true, but I think that should change. However, I know it probably won't.



I like both characters, but realistically, Kitana's backstory is deeper, because not only do we know more about it, we also know the basic outline of it.



Sindel and Raiden might both be realm protectors, but Sindel is the Queen of Edenia while Raiden was the Protector God of Earthrealm. Raiden's new approach to defending Earthrealm seems to have a frustrated tone to it. Some speculate that the One Being somehow influenced him while others believe that Raiden's taint is a result of his soul being affected by Shang Tsung's and Quan Chi's souls.



How and why would she take this approach?



I don't think it would make sense. Raiden's new approach would likely be the sort of approach that someone like Hotaru would take. If I remember correctly, Edenia has an uneasy alliance with Seido. So for Sindel to take that kind of approach would probably make Edenia into another Seido, which to me would be sort of redundant.

Sindel doesn't have to stop being soft and kind in order to take things seriously. She's a warrior queen, one whom I would imagine has had many years of military and diplomatic experience.



What if she had a "separatist" mentality in which she tries to have Edenia blocked off from other realms to make sure it's secure?



I don't think being "second-in-command" means that it wouldn't suit Kitana or that it wouldn't make as much sense for her. As for the whole "princess" thing, I think that some people look too much at her title as princess and get that sort of "Disney princess" type image. I really hate that, and I think that's far from the truth, especially considering what we know about her actual character and story.

Because some people look too much at the fact that she's a princess, I think Kitana is better off separating herself from the Edenian sub-plot, at least for a good amount of time.



Nah. Edenia is supposed to be a place of beauty. I think that considering we have a realm like Seido and that Edenia has an uneasy alliance with the Seidans, I'd rather have a contrast of how those realms are ruled.



The thing is, Raiden's character involves him defending Earth. So with that said, it has to be expected for his story to essentially be about that. However, with Raiden, we get certain insights into his character and backstory.

One example is that despite the indifference of the Elder Gods, especially in times like Shao Kahn's invasion of Earthrealm or the threat of the Deadly Alliance, we see that Raiden cares so much for Earthrealm and its people that he is willing to be there to defend it.

This could (partially) be due to what happened thousands of years ago when Raiden waged war against Shinnok, the war that, if I remember correctly, nearly drove the Saurians/Raptors to extinction, forcing them to migrate to Zaterra.

When discussing about Sindel, what the MK storywriters need to do is ask questions like "What is Sindel like as a character?" and "How does she handle matters when ruling as the Queen of Edenia, especially in comparison and contrast to the way Kitana handles things?".

Perhaps at the end of MK3, Sindel could have been the one to rule Edenia while Kitana assumes her role as Princess of Edenia at the end of her overall storyline. I mean, Sindel is the one with the experience while Kitana had spent most of her life being raised by Shao Kahn. I don't know...

I think you have to keep Sindel and Kitana. Jade and the rest kill off.

--I don't see how Kitana's backstory is deeper at all. It's actually quite linear: Father turns out to be the man who destroyed her family and homeland, then she escapes and becomes Princess of Edenia.

Sindel, on the other hand, was resurrected and used by the same man who enslaved her people, killed her husband, adopted her daughter, and ultimately drove her to suicide. I mean, obviously Kahn's invasion caused her immense psychology/emotional pain, and as if that wasn't enough, she killed herself only for her soul to be restrained from freedom so he could use her to gain more power.

I think feeding more power to the same person who drove you to suicide lifts more eyebrows than any "my life has been a lie" crap. Sindel's backstory is more complex, emotional, and psychologically driven that Kitana's "shocking truth" past.

I also don't see how we know more of Kitana's backstory than Sindel's, as if knowing more would even automatically render it deeper or more interesting. The only canon information we have are the bios and some hints from the toons/movies.

"How and why would she take this approach?"

--No offense, but... Duh. For the same reason Raiden took it.

Loads of fans were confused or displeased with Raiden's "dark" transition, but I distinctly remember you being one of the fans in favor of it.

So when Raiden turns dark it's cool, but if Sindel were to do it your reaction would be WTF? That's quite biased. She has every right to toughen up and take no bs in order to secure her realm just as Raiden did.

Besides what other approach can she possible take? Continuing being Ms. Peace and Church while her realm is constantly wide open to invasions? What kind of leader would that make her?

"So for Sindel to take that kind of approach would probably make Edenia into another Seido, which to me would be sort of redundant."

--Does not have to be another Seido at all.

"Sindel doesn't have to stop being soft and kind in order to take things seriously. She's a warrior queen, one whom I would imagine has had many years of military and diplomatic experience."

--Again, it's not her image or even personality that should change. We don't need a "Dark Sindel," like I said. Only her actions/approach towards Edenia's defense is what should change.

"What if she had a "separatist" mentality in which she tries to have Edenia blocked off from other realms to make sure it's secure?"

--I wrote a bio about her making Edenian isolationist. That would work. That would be an extreme measure. I also think she has lots of unfinished business with Kahn that needs to be explored. They have never confronted each other since she turned good again and it leaves a big gap in her storyline. That is a subplot that has reached no conclusion after all these years. No one has been closer to Khan than Sindel. Killing her off before exploring one of the many ways a reunion with he ex-husband could turn out would simply be a waste.

"I don't think being "second-in-command" means that it wouldn't suit Kitana or that it wouldn't make as much sense for her."

--She's not the boss. It wouldn't make sense for the subordinate to decide on actions that would affect the entire realm. Maybe the idea could be hers, but the Queen would have to greenlight it.

"As for the whole "princess" thing, I think that some people look too much at her title as princess and get that sort of "Disney princess" type image. I really hate that, and I think that's far from the truth, especially considering what we know about her actual character and story."

--Was she not acting like an airhead flirt and boring ole sweety pie in the last game? That is her personality. It's shown in almost every game, film, and toon. So what if she's written as a tough warrior? She's rarely portrayed that way so it doesn't even count.

"Nah. Edenia is supposed to be a place of beauty."

--I think Edenia's beauty theme has been beaten to death already. And it's unrealistic. If the world was on the verge of invasion, would we be preaching love and beauty? Or be arming ourselves with big weapons and trying to save our world by any means necessary?

I think it's unrealistic how Sindel and Edenians keep acting like church-going tree huggers when their world keeps falling under attacks.

"The thing is, Raiden's character involves him defending Earth. So with that said, it has to be expected for his story to essentially be about that. However, with Raiden, we get certain insights into his character and backstory."

--And Sindel's character isn't about defending her realm too?

Insight? How can we get considerable insight on her when she's only had 2 bios? Raiden on the other hand has had 7. Of course we're gonna know more about him. Even so, that does not render a character more interesting by default.

"One example is that despite the indifference of the Elder Gods, especially in times like Shao Kahn's invasion of Earthrealm or the threat of the Deadly Alliance, we see that Raiden cares so much for Earthrealm and its people that he is willing to be there to defend it."

--So he cares about his realm. And Sindel doesn't?

"When discussing about Sindel, what the MK storywriters need to do is ask questions like "What is Sindel like as a character?" and "How does she handle matters when ruling as the Queen of Edenia, especially in comparison and contrast to the way Kitana handles things?"."

I think there's much that can be explored about her. Namely her evolution as protector of an invasion-prone, weak-willed realm and her pending confrontation/reunion with her ex.

Sub Zero 7th


I didn't mean that literally. I should have been more specific. What I meant was Kitana wasn't raised by her mother or father. They were both dead. She wasn't raised in Edenia either since it was ruined and merged with Outworld.

She never had a true Edenian upbringing. She wasn't raised in a traditional Edenian family as far as we know. She was raised as a child by Shao Kahn to be a cold blooded assassin. I am sure she had some other Edenian servants and exiles in Shao Kahn's palace to help teach her true heritage to her when Kahn wasn't paying attention though.

But she clearly didn't have a traditional Edenian upbringing. Sindel despite the fact she has been resurrected is actually the only 'true' representation of Edenian culture and values we have seen in all likelyhood. I imagine Jade, Kitana, and Tanya all to be about the same age and to have had the same experiences. I'm not sure about Rain.

I think there are bound to be some philisophical differences when it comes to defending Edenia from Shao Kahn between mothe and daughter. The complete effect of being raised by Shao Kahn has to have effected her somehow. At the very minimum she has all the combat training of an Outworld assassin, something Sindel does not. What Sindel should have or at least my idea for her is to really use Edenian magic. The flight, the purple fireballs (or were they blue?), the sonic scream could be examples of that.

Aside from using her fans what powers or abilities has Kitana ever exhibited? In mka she has a teleport. Perhaps after getting her mother back Sindel began teaching her some ancient Edenian arts? Obviously I am trying to make an arbitrary game design element fit but it could work.

Like I said, certainly in a Kitana, Jade, Mileena shaolin monks type game this could be explored further. However even in the fighting game series this could be explored in some depth. In my opinion it would be worth it.

In regards to whether Li Mei's counter part is Liu Kang or Sonya:

Peacful villager. Fighting for her people. Asian looks. Bland characterization. Being taught by Bo Rai Cho after mkda. Won the mkda tournament.
Liu Kang. Peacful villager. Fighter for his people the Shaolin monks and the White Lotus society. Taught by Bo Rai Cho. Asian. The most bland characterization in the game. Won the mk1-4 tournament.
Sounds like Liu Kang to me.
Yes the fact that Li (or is it Lei? Gosh darn it I can't ever remember) is forced to compete in the mkda tournament to save her people from Shang Tsung is a direct parallel to Sonya but everthing else to me screams Liu Kang.She is like an Outworld Liu Kang.

I was so hyped when i saw that MK armageddon game box with Shao Kahn's face and Sindel in the background. I was hoping they would explore their "rivalry" in MKA. Like someone said above, Sindel and Shao Kahn never fought since she was resurrected.
Talking about that, I think some people see Sindel's suicide in a wrong way. I mean, if she stayed alive, Shao Kahn would enslave her, and well, we know he had more than a crush on her. So it was like that: if alive, she would serve the man who killed her husband and conquered her realm; if dead, she woul find eternal peace.
And about her abandoning Kitana, there's more than a way the developers could explain that. For example, she could believe kitana was killed during the invasion.

To QueenSindel(thebitch)

I kind of hate to turn this into a Kitana vs. Sindel thread, because I'd rather talk about what Sindel could do if she were to return. Still, I'll try to address your points.

"--I don't see how Kitana's backstory is deeper at all. It's actually quite linear: Father turns out to be the man who destroyed her family and homeland, then she escapes and becomes Princess of Edenia."

That's a gross oversimplification of her story. Shao Kahn is not only the man who did those things, he also molded her into a cold-blooded assassin.

"Sindel, on the other hand, was resurrected and used by the same man who enslaved her people, killed her husband, adopted her daughter, and ultimately drove her to suicide. I mean, obviously Kahn's invasion caused her immense psychology/emotional pain, and as if that wasn't enough, she killed herself only for her soul to be restrained from freedom so he could use her to gain more power.

I think feeding more power to the same person who drove you to suicide lifts more eyebrows than any "my life has been a lie" crap. Sindel's backstory is more complex, emotional, and psychologically driven that Kitana's "shocking truth" past."

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. Don't you think that Kitana had gone through psychological/emotional pain with the stuff that she found out? I mean, she could have simply not cared about her home realm or her real parents and side with Shao Kahn. Afterall, she had been raised by him to be an assassin, and he is very close to obtaining another realm.

So in other words, she was basically on what had been the "winning side". I imagine she had a very high status, being Shao Kahn's (adopted) daughter, so why should she have cared and why should she turn against him? So you see, there is complexity in there, complexity that has yet to be fully explained, but I'm sure it would have to be there considering the fact that she chooses to turn against the man that raised her.

When looking at Kitana's storyline, she actually has one of the more developed ones. Sindel would need to have more appearances and more to do and have explored in order to see more of her character. I wouldn't mind seeing it if it were done well enough.

"I also don't see how we know more of Kitana's backstory than Sindel's, as if knowing more would even automatically render it deeper or more interesting. The only canon information we have are the bios and some hints from the toons/movies."

It's true that knowing more doesn't necessarily make it deeper. The shows and the movies are still non-canon even if certain elements from them influenced future MK games. Ulimately, fans have to do a lot of speculation on various stories. That's one of the big flaws of MK's storytelling. This isn't to say that there shouldn't be any room for speculation. It's more like when the story is told, there should be more told, know what I mean?

"--No offense, but... Duh. For the same reason Raiden took it."

Raiden took his new approach, because he no longer trusted the mortals of Earth to defend their realm. I'm pretty sure he'd also be willing to oppose those that don't support him and his views, even if they are heroes trying to defend Earth. We see that this new Raiden doesn't mind tapping into dark magic and making deals with villains in order to advance his goals.

While it might be a bit interesting to see Sindel have to resort to doing shady things in order to secure the safety of her realm, I'm just not sure if it would really be a good idea to have Sindel go to the sort of extremes that Raiden does.

"Loads of fans were confused or displeased with Raiden's "dark" transition, but I distinctly remember you being one of the fans in favor of it."

Yes, I do like Dark Raiden. However, when looking back, perhaps that his transformation into Dark Raiden could have had a better set up to that direction as well as more insight. Still, at least with him, we do see instances in which he acts when the Elder Gods do not, in order to help defend Earth.

"So when Raiden turns dark it's cool, but if Sindel were to do it your reaction would be WTF? That's quite biased. She has every right to toughen up and take no bs in order to secure her realm just as Raiden did."

We're both biased when it comes to the story and characters we like/dislike.

"Besides what other approach can she possible take? Continuing being Ms. Peace and Church while her realm is constantly wide open to invasions? What kind of leader would that make her?"

"Ms. Peace and Church"? Come on. That's silly, and it almost sounds to me like you're not even giving her enough credit, despite her being your favorite character.

"--I wrote a bio about her making Edenian isolationist."

That's good. I should have used the word "isolationist" instead.

"I also think she has lots of unfinished business with Kahn that needs to be explored. They have never confronted each other since she turned good again and it leaves a big gap in her storyline."

I think that needs to be settled in Armageddon itself. Shao Kahn might be one of my favorite characters, but to me, there is only so much that you can use characters like him. I think I had talked to you before about an idea in which Sindel and Shao Kahn could have joined forces to combat Onaga out of necessity. We could get some exploration into Shao Kahn's feelings for Sindel. If Sindel's and Shao Kahn's MKD stories had an element like that, both of their stories would have been deeper, at least in my opinion.

"--Was she not acting like an airhead flirt and boring ole sweety pie in the last game?"

That's your interpretation.

"That is her personality."

That's all you seem to see in Kitana, or at least, you focus too much on that.

"It's shown in almost every game, film, and toon."

That's a gross exaggeration.

"So what if she's written as a tough warrior? She's rarely portrayed that way so it doesn't even count."

So because you find her to be rarely portrayed as a tough warrior that it doesn't count, so therefore, she isn't a tough warrior and just simply an "airhead flirt" and "boring ole sweety pie"? I don't agree with that at all. I think what you only see is "Kitana, the flirtatious, goody-goody princess", not "Kitana, the reformed ex-assassin" or "Kitana, the diplomat" or "Kitana, the military leader".

Like I said, because there seem to be people who look too much into the whole "princess" thing and especially look into non-canon portrayals of her character, it's probably best that she move away from her role as princess and have her go in a different direction while exploring her character.

"--I think Edenia's beauty theme has been beaten to death already. And it's unrealistic. If the world was on the verge of invasion, would we be preaching love and beauty? Or be arming ourselves with big weapons and trying to save our world by any means necessary?

I think it's unrealistic how Sindel and Edenians keep acting like church-going tree huggers when their world keeps falling under attacks."

You're making it sound as if Sindel and the other Edenians are pacifists, which is far from the truth. I'm kind of surprised that you would even imply such a thing about your favorite character. She is a warrior queen who leads armed forces, so how the hell are they acting like "church-going tree huggers"? Had Sindel been a pacifist, she wouldn't be a warrior queen, now would she? She would have surrendered to Shao Kahn and be his loyal wife.

"--And Sindel's character isn't about defending her realm too?"

Yes, of course it is.

"Insight? How can we get considerable insight on her when she's only had 2 bios? Raiden on the other hand has had 7. Of course we're gonna know more about him."

Well, yeah, of course...

"Even so, that does not render a character more interesting by default."

That's true, but at the end of the day, that's a subjective thing. Even if there's a character that hasn't had many appearances or doesn't have as deep of a story as other characters, there could still be people that could find that character more interesting.

"--So he cares about his realm. And Sindel doesn't?"

I never said she doesn't. Of course she cares about the safety of her realm.

"I think there's much that can be explored about her. Namely her evolution as protector of an invasion-prone, weak-willed realm and her pending confrontation/reunion with her ex."

I don't see how Edenia is a "weak-willed" realm. It's just that there is a sense of escalation in terms of danger. Kitana saw this escalation and has become more and more frustrated because of it. As for Sindel confronting Shao Kahn, I think it would be better to wrap that up by having the two fight each other in Armageddon.

If Shao Kahn is to return in the next-gen games, he has to be used very carefully. He started out as an absolute villain but progressed into a complex villain that seems to (and that's where part of the speculation I was referring to kicks in) have some sense of goodness in him.

---------------------------

To Thrawn:

I understand your points about Kitana's upbringing. Thanks for clearing that up. In fact, you sparked an interesting idea that could have been used earlier on in the story. Since Kitana was raised in Outworld and therefore influenced by its culture, that should have had a clash with Edenian culture, a culture that she would begin to really learn about and experience when Edenia was separated from Outworld at the end of MK3.

"I think there are bound to be some philisophical differences when it comes to defending Edenia from Shao Kahn between mothe and daughter. The complete effect of being raised by Shao Kahn has to have effected her somehow. At the very minimum she has all the combat training of an Outworld assassin, something Sindel does not."

Yes, I agree. That's something that I feel should have been explored. We should have also seen a lot more of Sindel's actions as Queen of Edenia in conjunction with Kitana's actions as Princess of Edenia. Being raised by Shao Kahn, it wouldn't be unbelievable if a bit of his ruthlessness rubbed off on her, even after she reformed. That kind of mentality could easily conflict with Sindel's methods.

But hey, back then, it was the Tobias era, in which the stories usually didn't have the kind of depth that the Vogel era stories have. One thing I really like about MKD and MKA is that they have the bios in first person instead of third person. By having first person bios, it helps get a better idea of how each character talks and acts.

"What Sindel should have or at least my idea for her is to really use Edenian magic. The flight, the purple fireballs (or were they blue?), the sonic scream could be examples of that."

I think her special moves aren't a result of using magic but rather channeling her Fa Jing (inner power). However, I'm not opposed to the idea of her using magic. She probably does.

"Aside from using her fans what powers or abilities has Kitana ever exhibited? In mka she has a teleport. Perhaps after getting her mother back Sindel began teaching her some ancient Edenian arts? Obviously I am trying to make an arbitrary game design element fit but it could work."

Well, Kitana can fly in the air to punch someone. She can use her fans to lift someone in the air, which I'd imagine would involve channeling her Fa Jing through the fans. In MKA, Kitana had the same teleport that Jade had. Maybe Kitana learned it from Jade or vice versa. Perhaps it was a move that was developed during their time as assassins for Shao Kahn.

"Like I said, certainly in a Kitana, Jade, Mileena shaolin monks type game this could be explored further. However even in the fighting game series this could be explored in some depth. In my opinion it would be worth it."

In my opinion, it would work better to have the game focus on Kitana's story, with Jade and Mileena as supporting characters, since Kitana can be considered one of the protagonists of Mortal Kombat's story.

Now about the stuff regarding Li Mei:

You mention that Li Mei looks Asian while Liu Kang is Asian. They competed in a tournament, etc. You said they have bland characterization. While I'd agree with that for Liu Kang, and while I may possibly have agreed with you regarding Li Mei back in MKDA, I have to disagree with you about her after MKD.

Liu Kang does not have an evil taint to struggle with. He hasn't developed some kind of cold attitude, which Li Mei is implied to have developed. If you want to know what I'm talking about, check MKD's koncept art with her armor design. She can go in the direction of a villain if her taint can be exploited by villains. Li Mei may have had training from Bo' Rai Cho, but she was also trained by Shujinko.

To me, she has more going for her than Liu Kang did. She's only been in MKDA-MKA, and we don't know what her MKA story is. Liu Kang has been in the series since the first game, and the only main game he hasn't been in was MKDA. There were chances in which he could have become something more. Li Mei is still a relatively new character, especially compared to him.

With her taint and her involvement with Outworld's armed forces, she has good potential to either become a next-generation protagonist or antagonist. There's still more that could be explored with her. Characters like Liu Kang, on the other hand, have had their run, imo. The story isn't reliant on him, and there are other characters that could be developed into becoming the main hero.

"Won the mk1-4 tournament."

MK3 and MK4 weren't really tournaments. As Raiden stated in MKDA's intro, "Mortal Kombat has always been, and will always be.". It transcends the tournament format and is the struggle between forces through combat.