You know, after playing SF4, the thought has certainly crossed my mind. Take 3D MK characters, put them on a 2D plain and make the backgrounds 3D. It would certainly go a long way in making projectiles more interesting and relevant once more.

I don't think that the MK team has ever had a problem with the 3D movement aspects a 3D fighting game though. Their problem has always been the execution of the battle system.

While MK was right there among the better battle systems in the 2D era, where every character had the same standard moves, but were separated from one another by special attacks, 3D MK simply hasn't caught up to the times.

The VF's, Tekken's and Soul Calibur's of the world have given fighting fans a cast of characters with a wide array of standard moves and combos that make each character unique by much more than simply special moves.

In other words, in those games, when you play as a wrestler like King or a Kung Fu master like Law, the two fight completely different from one another. Same goes for fighting with a character that uses a whip sword like Ivy versus a character that uses a regular sword like Yun Sung.

Characters in MK have had weapons, full move sets and even special moves swapped between characters. The combos are clunky, the controls are stiff, the graphics always seem to be a step or two behind the heavy hitters in the genre, the glitches, the lack of fluidity in combat, the lack of a ground game, the minigames in mid-fight, the existance of nonfighting game modes at all, the lame counters (sorry, the real word is escaping me, but I'm referring to the jarring animation when you catch an opponents fist and the game stops for about three seconds)...

This is the type of stuff that infuriates and leads me to believe that MK is behind the times. Will changing things back to 2D fix the series? I think that it would fix some of that stuff, but certainly not all of it.

Still, at this point, I'd probably even take a partial fix over the last three or so MK games. So if the MK team announced that they were going to do something along the lines of what SF4 has done, I wouldn't mind the idea.

It would still kind of feel like the MK team would be waiving the white flag though. In other words, it would seem as though the MK team would be admitting that they can't make a good modern 3D fighting game.

You know I just had this conversation with my brother and I just bought SF4. After playing SF4 and replaying mk vs dc I don't really want them to go back to straight 2d. I think they pretty much did with mk vs dc.

I mean the entire game is really 2d but with a sidestep mechanic. I like how you can literally play an entire match with jumping and ducking and not have to sidestep. I like how you have to use the analogue stick or hold down what is it, L1 or L2, to sidestep.

I think they still need to tweak the jumping some, the characters still feel a little "heavy" to me. Air combos still aren't back to where they were in the mk3-4 days.

I also think they need to tweak the projectile tracking some to keep them relevant but still maintain the 3d sidestep.

I think that with the simple idea of solely using the dpad for 2d movement with mk vs dc engine they are really onto something if only they will keep it and develop it further.

I think I agree with you more here. Although I haven't played SF4 yet.

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I don't think they should follow the pack (so to speak) here. I think they should tighten up MKvsDC's ambitions as far as the mechanics goes. For once, follow through on something that is actually pretty good looking right now.

Gimme something like MK2-T again, but only a pure MK game next go round.
Do something like step forward from this:


...graphically, and progress from what MkvsDc started mechanically.

I also want to see special moves be more relevant specifically, as actual components of combos. Not separate entities within a combo sequence that need to be tied in to "make it a combo". But rather, they should seem seamless (cohesive attributes within a combo, mainly aesthetic) for what I'm thinking about, and almost feel like MKSM.

Actually, a perfect example of this would be something like in MKSM, Scorpions spear + fire on it, member? However, it's progressive though. So, maybe your first couple punches within that combo have no aesthetic effect to them. But as your combo progresses (6,7,8 hits and up), you start to see these aesthetic rewards that actually are relevant to the damage that you are dealing to your opponent. Would at least make the fight more visually exciting I think.

Another, even more relevant example, would be the way that UMK3-MKT Nightwolf's combo behaved. Green//red axe...ect. The only exception really, is that I see the combo with the opportunity of continuing in a multitude of ways. So that the axe (pop up), nor the shoulder move is the "ultimate end" of the combo. Nor is the aesthetic attribute there, the last aesthetic reward possible within whatever combo your doing. It's a pretty purely aesthetic reward though because it just makes the thing more visually appealing. More cinematic for certain characters.

Sounds Street Fighter-ish, but it's not, even though it should be quite cinematic. I may have to make a picture or something.

Anyway, that's what I wanna see. MKvsDC+ MK2-T+ a little bit of MKSM.

Yes, I think I see what you are saying Predator. After you get in so many hits on the combo you start to see some visual effects like flaming fists and particle effects on Scorpion or lighting on Raiden or ice particles on Sub Zero or his opponent?

Yeah that would be cool. I personally would only implement it on certain characters like supernatural ones but yeah that would be a nice visual treat. Give you another reason to perfect combos.

I also would like to see a little of the mksm combo mechanic worked in there as well. I really love that game. It is so fun to play and it feels really fluid.

On a side note I played SF4 some more last night and I am liking it more now that I have gotten used to the controls. I still would rather mk keep the mk vs dc game engine but with more bells and whistles and tweaks.

Another all 2d mk game would be good as well but I really think the new mk engine has so much potential if they would stick with it for 3-4 more games, keep mostly the same cast and really flesh them and the engine out. That would be awesome.

As far as combos are concerned, I think that the most enjoyable ones for me have always been the juggling combos. Something like Kitana's fan-lift to square wave puch to fan throw.

I don't really think that they need to have 8+ hit combos (at least not many), as most of them simply involve dial-a-combo X,A,B,X,X,L,X,B,Y type of stuff and while the speed of the combos looks cool, I wouldn't really call them "rewarding" to pull off. It's just rote memorization. There's no skill at all.

But juggling combos, ones that rely on timing and involve special moves as part of the combo (not just the ending move, same as what Predator was saying here), always seem to give me the sense that I've taken control of the fight in a way. You know, moving the opponent around, not letting them get their bearings etc.

A combo where (for example) Jax maybe knees the opponent, does his gotcha grab, follows up with a kick that pops the enemy in the air, then he jumps and does his backbreaker and follows it with a roundhouse.

That's more of what I'm talking about in terms of combos. Characters using their special moves to either put distance between or close distance between your character and the opponent, all without the opponent having a choice in the matter.

Another example: Sub Zero uses his ice ball, two quick punches and an uppercut, he then uses the falling ice block to knock the opponent back to the ground, he roundhouses them, teleports to where they'll land and uppercuts them.

I think that a combo system that relies more on the natural move set would be more intuitive and flow better. Kitana's 3 hit combo that I described earlier didn't have to be told to me because doing it simply made sense. It looked like I should be able to do it, and thus, I was.

To me, that's the ideal combo system for MK. Forget the 9 button sequences of boring punches and kicks followed by one special move at the end.

Just my 2 cents on it.

That's my personal preference too Baraka407. We are on the same page there I think. The mk series lost some steam with mk3 when they took the jump to dial a combos and decreased the damage and therefore the incentive to do juggle combos. Mk4 pulled the dial combos back and as such was a more fun game as a result in my opinion.

That was a major reason why I wasn't a big fan of mkda. The combo system was complete memorization and button mashing. The emphasis is back on juggling and less on dial a combos in mk vs dc I feel. One of the reasons I liked it better.

I think the mk team is really onto something with the current engine. If they would tweak the jumping some more and fix the projectile tracking so they are still useful while keeping the sidestep mechanic then they have the best of both worlds. 2d and 3d.

I guess what I really like about the mk vs dc engine is the fact that it is largely a 2d game with a sidestep mechanic thrown in. Not a 3d game specifically.

Ironically it is the mk4 engine that most people hated at the time (not me though) just improved upon with mk vs dc.

Ironically Dial A Combos are why MK is no more relevant. At all.

Agreed Chrome. The dial a combos hurt mk. It decreased the incentive to do juggle combos since they did less damage than the dial a combos. They turned mk into a button masher.

My biggest complaint with the last trilogy of games was largely the long style branch combos that were nothing more than memorization. Juggling was near nonexistent thanks to the complete lack of jumping and limited special moves.

I love the fact that in mk vs dc they have been reduced significantly.

PLEASE DO!!!!! and please put the run feature back. I miss mortal kombat when it was fast paced like trilogy and 4

Don't go back 2 2d!!! Get with the times ppl mk is much better in 3d its much more fun aswell and as 4 street fighter 4 the whole 3d 2d things looks pure shite 2 b honest just looks like a taki japanese game not impressed

MK does not have to be 2D again like Meat Beater 4,unless they made a remake of MK 1 to 3 then I guess thats pretty reasonable

MK vs DC's gameplay is fine. When I played Street Fighter 4 I was feeling like I had no freedom at all. A really jail gameplay. And boring too. So, no I think they should stick with MK vs DC's gameplay.

Personally I found MKvDC's engine to be a down-grade. Heck, I even found Deceptions better than Armageddons, most noticably with Scorpion - some of the juggles/combos were broken.

But MKvDC just seemed a hell of a lot worse, and way too simplified.

I think they should have it similar to Deception but just a hell of a lot more in-depth and better.

Definitely not. However, the 2D feel of MK vs. DCU was very nice, and hope it's in the next game.

Like people have already said, the gameplay is the problem, not the graphics engine.

man u are wrong. if u have not noticed, mk was popular when it was in 2d and much better. now all the Hardcore fans are gone because it has turned into a kiddy game with slow 3d controls and combo system, with the most stupid lame ass fatalitys. if you wanna a good 3d fighting game play tekken, soul calibur and virtua fighter. they have set the standards that ed boon cant seem to reach. mk needs to stick to 2d gameplay!!!

I think it looks more realistic wite a 3d gameplay -you see the stages from
Different angles!

the stages look just as good in street fighter iv

Going back to 2D just seems to me like a step in the wrong direction. Even Street Fighter which I never thought would never go 3D did go 3D, so to me if MK went back to 2D it would seem like a deevolution of MK. But thats just my opinion.

yeah i used to think like that to(if they went back to 2d they would degress) but now that i think of it, mk needs to go back to 2d. 2d fighters are fast and fun and u can have a little mistake or gimmick in them. but 3d has to be close to perfect because there is much else going on. i feel like virtua fighter and tekken have set the bar for 3d. it has to feel somewhat realistic and be in depth. mk has never been good at either one of those things. if they bring out a great 2d game you will forget 3d unless u prefer it.......

Deception being my favourite MK game I have to say I don't want MK to go back to 2D. Yes, it would take a lot of work and need a deeper fighting system, but instead of saying "if you can't get it right then don't bother trying and just release the same engine over and over" - we should be saying - "get the 3D engine right this time, or at least as good as possible with the technology".

Why turn around and go back to the beginning, when they could just go forward and get it right next time!

Well Mk has had four chances to get it right in 3d. is thst not enough??? thats the reason im saying it should go back to 2d because they just keep making bad 3d games. tekken and virtua fighter started out chopy graphics and combos but they kept getting better in each new game. mk started out in 3d and has pretty much went in a straight line all the way the bottom. they kept the same fighting styles system and the same boring graphics.

MK4 was the worst MK ever.

Deadly Alliance was great and got me back into the series.

Deception was even better than DA, and the best MK to date.
Armaggedon was rushed, with broken combos and not enough time to add in important content (fatalities, bios, proper endings, etc).

MKvDC was a hybrid 2D / 3D, and personally the 2D helped ruin the game (along with the many other things on the list).

Basically, they almost had it right with Deception, they just needed to expand on the engine and make it more in-depth. Instead they decided to nerf it in Armaggedon and screw everything over in DC.

^^I agree with this guy's last comment. Deception ALMOST had it down. I really think they just need to tweak some of the moves sets here and there and get more detailed, Deception was SOOOO dark & grimey man I loved every bit of it, I think they need to hire people from this site to be game testers because these guys find glitches within the first 48hrs of release...They really don't need to go back to 2d fuck that man, 3D is great, I like sidestepping also, why do people bitch about things like that?

i dont know why people dislike like side stepping. I guess it take away the use of fireballs or makes the opponent easier to dogde.......anyway if mk does stick with 3d and they make a decent one would still be in last place compared to other 3d fighters. lol. but i understand fans dont wont mk to be like another fighting game, they just want mk. I believe most people that buy mk these days are little kids and people that just cant picture their life without it(hardcore fans). they also buy mk because of its name and how good it USED to be....(cough...)