its not infinte you can get out of that one..

Oh my god Liu Kang, stop asking questions like this and please just get online and play people! I'm trying to be professional about this and answer everybody's questions, but you're making this very difficult for me. You're basically going through the ENTIRE tier list finding pretty much NOTHING to be acceptable. It's very obvious through the way you are talking that you don't know anything about the game. Please don't think of this as making fun, but rather pointing out the obvious. Read through the high level thread and get a grasp of the what the game is about instead of criticizing everything. Thanks...

As for your question...

MKDA Sub-Zero and MKD Sub-Zero are totally different.

1. In MKDA his Shotokan jabs(1 and 1,2) hit mid and were fairly safe, especially using 1 by itself. In MKD they hit high and have horrible recovery time, essentially raping the usefulness of Shotokan. Also, everything hits high/low. Meaning besides a cold shoulder there's no reason to duck.

2. In MKDA Dragon was a good stance. Dragon: d+3 was the fastest move in the game and pretty much poked out of anything. His Dragon BDC shit(d+3~bdc/1~bdc/1,1~bdc/1,1,2~bdc) were great, but all of them are nonexistant in MKD. Not to mention Dragon also has no mids, where in MKDA you had d+2, which was one of his best moves.

3. MKD Kori is completely different from MKDA Kori with the exception of a few moves. MKDA Sub had b+4, which was a sweep that went under high attacks and was pretty safe. It also had the stomp kick(3) which launched and a whole different set of low attacks. In MKD he has a better set of lows(mainly because of the addition of d+3), b+2(which damage wise is SUPERIOR to the stomp kick) and a new b+4 that's not as good as the old version.

4. Special wise the Ice Clone is SUPERIOR to the Ice Shaker in pretty much every way. It was a pain in the ass setting the ice shaker up in MKDA, and for the most part not worth it. The clone is much easier to set up and there's much more effective post-clone options then there was post-shaker options(actually, there were no post-shaker options besides if it connects that you quickly switched to dragon, powered up and raped). The cold shoulder in MKDA hit special mid(meaning you can block it either low or high), while in MKD it hit mid. The freeze in MKD is better because of the roster. In MKDA the freeze was basically useless, but vs certain chars in MKD(mainly NS and Sub) it can be effective.

Also, correzz stay away from using Kori: b+4 that much to mix up. The best mix up is really b+2/throw. If you aren't smart with b+4 you will get fucked up bad.

And M2dave, Axe: b+2 sucks ass, and don't get me started on the stance itself. By the time I actually land one 40% juggle off of Axe: b+2 I could have chipped away half your bar with Huay Chan: 1/d+4/throw change ups and smart MF d+3 play.

I know, but usually I just do a b+4 to open up a 50/50 between b+2 and throw.

But you're right, MKDA Sub was very different, and I also thought the Shaker wasn't very usefull besides the obvious juggle uses.

And the Liu Kang fella, 1,2,b+2 was never safe, and still isn't, neither is 1,1,3,2.

jeeze.... im just fucking wondering. no need to be an ass to me for asking some thing. i just wanted to understand y u put whom here and there and i had some questions. and i cant play online. with my set up for some damn reason it wouldnt connect right. so dont even mention playing it online. that just makes me mad.

and the Shaker i think would be better in MKD. ya its alright... not that good really in MKDA but IF it was in MKD it would rule imo. all i primarly even do with Subby in MKD is his specials trying to freeze them and when i do i do the Cold Blade combo. thats it. pretty much nothing else. and i do perfectly fine on MAX with out continueing doing that and whoop all my friends asses that way too. like i said it probably depends on how u play. hell im pretty sure im not the only one who uses the same strategy with Subby in MKD but perhaps we still do it differently.

plus big whoop bout being "safe". sorry but honestly that aint a big deal imo. im not afraid to take some damage.

so ya i hardly notice a difference in Subby in MKDA and MKD. every thing seems to be pretty much the same to me. i dont care for single strikes or 2 hit combos in these games. unless their pop up moves i see them to be useless. i go for the big combos mostly or ones that can make some space like in Dragon if i remember right 1, 2, b+2.

and one last thing... if u didnt want questions u shouldnt of bothered making a tier list then. its really just ur opinion (and whom ever worked on it) and i do respect that and u knew u were gonna have questions asked. yet i only had a few questions and u just be rude.

You have to be careful when going only for big combos when playing against human opponents. We know that you will attempt it and simply side step your combo string. The best thing to do in any fighting game is to find a decent poke and a good set up to keep you opponents on their toes and to frustrate them. Honestly I would rather play some one who always goes for big combos because I would win more often, that I have proven to myself over and over. Now a poking player like myself on the other hand can prove to be frustrating in the least. Imaging 80% of your combo attempts being sufffed out by a single jab, not to mention poking so much you become frustrated and then start making mistakes to try and counter.

Using one or two moves that are fast and can be used as pokes help "up" your game. Poking opponents to death causes them to break down, and guess what hapens next? Thats right, all of your breakers are gone due to pure frustration then its open season for my set ups into throw or a big combo of my choice. Or I could just poke you until you quit. This is what you will encounter when playing a halfway decent player online or offline. Use the big combos only when you know you got 'em.

Peace.

The infinite with Smoke DOES work.It's just a little bit harder.SSR on the P1 side,but SSL on the P2 side.

Konqrr has played me and he even said it works with a somewhat tricky timing,and I also have people complaining because they couldn't duck.

Versatile,Mileena is too low.From what I've seen in her second stance, 3,1 hits mid and juggles (and pushes the opponent rather far away;not sure how safe it really is).Then after it do b,d+4 (the rolling thing).After that,you get a free throw.I think this whole combo might be inescapable.Anyway,after the throw either throw again or 3,1.

i tried that sub zero one against the computer on max, didn't work, with or without the throw, sorta worked in practice mode, i dont understand, does it register as one big combo, or u just use that delay after B+1 and throw em? or is it a corner thing? how do u throw them? by the time u walk over to them, they're on their backs with their feet up in the air, is it different vs human players?

by the way, after B+2, you can freeze them before they hit the ground, hope that helps somehow..

Mad props to you guys for actually taking time with this game to compile a tier list.

Lord knows only a few could do it.
Still serving the MK commumity to the fullest.

Good work.

Check,it does work,but Sub-Zero's is a little bit harder.Try it with N/S first to get the feeling and timing for the glitch.

Remember,do Throw,b+1,walk up and side step the right and grab again.The timing is NOT easy.Mess around with it a little bit.Let a friend duck for you so you know when you did it.

When you're P2,the same rules apply,except side step to the left and then grab.

m2dave, it's 4, 1

I agree Versatile...Mileena is too low. She's mid tier with this strategy, it is VERY frustrating as m2dave locked me down very nicely with this. Even if you duck the throw attempt or block the 4, 1 combo she's relatively safe to start the whole mixup again.

wow, that is some serious shit with smoke, i dont care what you say, if u can pull that off, thats skill, much much props, i can only get it a few times, damn thats hard!!! so really the sidestep is just to time the throw, but how come you have to side step a certain way? its alot easier when youre close to a wall, but youre gonna have to show me next week once i finally get online with this shit

this is the way to play, some serious mind games going on here, i dont think i can hang!!!

PM me if u want instead

.

trust me i tried telling them she needs to be higher, they laughed at me..

actually u know what i think after the top tier, every 1 else is pretty much even if used right, even kira has some decent stuff. but thats just my opinion i guess.. what do i know.. but hey i feel special winning w/ low tier characters.. sindel and kabal..
guys just play molson-x he'll show u how to win w/ any 1 using simple tactics...

If I came off as an asshole I am sorry Liu Kang, I just didn't expect so many complaints from one person. I strongly suggest just reading through the high level board and getting your friends to learn the game with you. This is the kind of game anyone can get good in.

I'll talk to Greg about Mileena soon guys. I had a feeling she might deserve to be a bit higher, but I needed intelligent convincing from other players. If she's moved, where do you guys think would be best to put her? I'd say to me she should be below Li Mei. Kunlundao: 2 is just too strong of a move to me, but that's just how I feel right now. Let me know your opinion on where she belongs.

wow, that is some serious shit with smoke, i dont care what you say, if u can pull that off, thats skill, much much props, i can only get it a few times, damn thats hard!!! so really the sidestep is just to time the throw, but how come you have to side step a certain way? its alot easier when youre close to a wall, but youre gonna have to show me next week once i finally get online with this shit

this is the way to play, some serious mind games going on here, i dont think i can hang!!!

PM me if u want instead

I've flawlessed one individual with this infinite combo before.Anyway,the side step seems to be necessary,but I'm not sure about the specific sides.For me to say the least it's easier to SSR when you're player 1 and SSL when you're P2.It's a glitch.When the opponent gets up from the planting move they seem to have some active standing animation,but not for a lot of frames,so that's why it works;however,with some timing to it.I usually never use this unless I want to practice online.This is meant for those BRC players,such as Yayo ,because I just can't beat them with Scorpion or anybody else for that matter.

Sub-Zero's is a little bit different.Notice how he recovers much,much faster from 1,b+1 than Smoke does from b+1.This changes the timing completely and needs to be done differently accordingly.The easiest time I have is with Darrius' d,f+3, walk up and SSR,Throw.

Mileena is mid-tier I agree,but she has problems getting close up and utilizing this pressure tactic.If you dash in with 4, you're going to get that annoying special move of hers (f,f+4).So maybe there's a better mid move when coming up close;otherwise,the other one is just fine.Also,this was discovered such a long while ago that she has an infinite off the Rolling move.Basically while juggling,do it and tap "f" before you do another b,d+4.It's useless though because of damage reduction.

that sucks they get up so quickly, in tekken you could just lay there, WHY THE F*** DIDN'T THEY PUT THIS SHIT IN THE GAME??? cuz that wouldn't be traditional mortal kombat...

anyway ill fuck around with this when i get online, but that scorpion one is my favorite, much props out to you, all of you for that matter, ima enjoy fighting along side you against these cheap fucks, and i will pull on them!! im sorry, if u pull period, youre getting pulled!!!!!!!!

a scorpion combo i think

hapkido

B+1, hellfire

hellfire is guarenteed after B+1, i think...

Versatile,why is Sindel so low?She is definetly middle tier at least.I think Kira and Mileena are a bit low as well.

To versatile:
Agreed that kori is the most playble stance for sub. agreed that b+2 and throw is great. agreed that clone is much better than shaker. not agreed that shoto is weak thougyh. it does lose a few gems in that it lacks mid blows and king's crown is not useful compared to last time. However, the kick this time is that shoto recovers quicker and allows players to condition others. condition with d+1, followed by a sidestep or cold shoulder. Never make intentions clear and never just assume that a crouchin opponent is going to stay crouched and not stand up in the midst of a cold shoulder.. conditioning with d+1 is key due to it being absolutely safe. side stepping at correct times immediately after d+1 opens avenues for combos or throws. btw in kori i always repeat b+2 after i hit him once with b+2. to me, its confirmed damage. sub kinda sucks in 50\50 sits. which is why he must be able to condition and utilise with a standing or crouching opponent. once there is a dif in life turtlin tactics are utilised.

Versatile, i love the tier list, but i have one problem, and i will be able to settle it online, i am an avid shujinko player, and i KNOW that Shu is a top tier player... i am CRKFIEND on PS2, or FFWHITEY... I can consistantly do combos over 50 damage... where can u ask for results like that???

Besides being a cry baby online,you're not actually that wrong.However,you depend too much on the Tele-Slam,which when gets blocked,will get you punished.Your combos are great of course and the reason you win,but try to play a 50/50 mix up when you get close (play kind of like Elamit but with your own style) and I'm sure you'll have better results overall.Still,BRC,Kobra,Noob-Smoke,Dairou and a few other characters are better than Jinko.

Yeah man, that was my EXACT style of playing Sub-Zero back when MKD first dropped, but now I feel that Kori is the way to go, and that the cold shoulder just isnt enough of a threat(doing 9 damage and being punishable) to use with throw/d+1. d+1 to me is a great move in a bad stance. It would of been nice if they could of somehow found a way to implement d+1's properties into Kori blade. Also, side stepping isn't that effective due to universal tracking(tap up before doing the move to make it unsidesteppable). Nice shit though man.

Shujinko is the shit CRKFIEND(I hope you don't do crack, that shit is no good..lol), and I figured people would complain his rank(even though upper mid tier is damn good in this game), but the characters above him can threaten damage in the 40s(or higher) and have better ways of setting them up. Just give me any chars and i'll tell you why we put them above Shujinko.

To versatile. Yup lotsa ppl tell me online that its kinda noobish to overdepend on d+1 in shoto, with sidesteppin and cold shoulder. but they also tell me for some reason it works. as long as you keep a clone in the mix or be ready to change to kori, you should do well. of course d+1 cant stand by itself, but after opponent has been conditioned with kori's b+2 and throw, a quick swap to shoto could deal some quick easy damage. in kori, most people block high due to range of b+2(which unlike d+1 in shoto cannot be whored out though) while in shoto most people block low against d+1. may not be a lot of damage, but for sub users it all adds up. That is why we choose to throw instead of combo. that is why we rather settle for a 20+ percent combo in kori than risk a breaker. sub is all bout his defense, and once opponent has to attack sub with clones, freeze balls and kori in the mix, some easy hits occur for sure. and that is how i get my wins onloine..

I said it can be broken wit combo breakers... That is the only way I know how to get out of it. If you know other ways please share them with me.

I would say these infs are just as usefull as noob smokes jumpkick one. I really wish this game wasnt so fucking broke but it was fun while it lasted.

Could someone explain to me why Nightwolf is where he is on the tier list ? Maybe m2dave or vers
thanks in advance