No way, Kenshi sucks. He's weak, slow and unsafe. His best stance (kitana) has horrible recovery for about every move, including his mids. Tai Chi is a joke that has almost no mids at all and definately no power. Judo is better but still really weak. Judo's 1 is so weak that its laughable, 2 isn't much better.

Could someone please repost the entire tier list as it is now?

VQ

If it doesn't include sidestep glitches then how could Bo be so high without his F+4 throw abuse? Doesn't matter anyway since from what I hear online players cheese infinites to death so what does a tier list matter..? Characters with infinites also tend to have very high legitimate combos, with the side step glitch but you say that isn't included in the tier list but no one's going to stop using it online just cuz it's cheezy but whatever.

1. Its f3 not f4
2. u dont have to side step to get the throw
3. lol

yeah my mistake after long consideration i have to say that noob-smoke is indeed god-tier but he is the weakest of them behind bo and dairou,of course he has some sick shit and a terrific 50 50 but the problem he has is the "getting in" especially vs bo and some other chars that can punish a blocked u4 or 4 thats his main problem and some other shit i dont feel posting right now but he is still fucking good.

btw,havik must be higher

Yes, I've been saying that for a while now, too. Havik doesn't belong in Kira's league.

Hi I'm new here and jut looking at the tier list I expected Sub-Zero to be at the top not 23rd. I reckon Sindel, Kenshi and Ermac should be at the bottom. I thought Mileena would be a lot lower as well since her combos don't seem to do tons of damage unlike say Baraka and Jade. But this is just my opinion.

I agree, i think sub zero should be ranked a little higher although he is a very un safe player, come on guys its Subby. In my opinion i think Baraka is more like an 8 or 9 but i can see why you put him there.

Infinite combos not a factor for this first "updated" list:

01. Bo' Rai Cho
02. Dairou
03. Noob-Smoke
04. Shujinko
05. Ashrah
06. Scorpion
07. Darrius
08. Hotaru
09. Liu Kang
10. Raiden
11. Kabal
12. Mileena
13. Kobra
14. Jade
15. Baraka
16. Tanya
17. Nightwolf
18. Ermac
19. Havik
20. Kenshi
21. Sindel
22. Li Mei
23. Sub-Zero
24. Kira

IF INFINITE COMBOS WERE A FACTOR:

01. Ashrah (EASY Unbreakable Infinite from anywhere)
02. Bo' Rai Cho (Has Infinites, but don't need them)
03. Dairou (Hard to time TS Drop Infinite from full screen, don't need it)
04. Noob-Smoke (Tons of Infinites, don't need them)
05. Shujinko (Throw, Slam, jump over, repeat, don't need it)
06. Nightwolf (Tomahawk free throw madness, leads to Inf)
07. Scorpion
08. Darrius (His Infinites don't move him up any)
09. Hotaru (Hotaru has a couple Infinites, but he stays below Darrius)
10. Liu Kang (Throw Infinite near wall, hard to do, not a factor)
11. Raiden
12. Havik (Breakable, but easy Inf, still not good enough)
13. Kabal
14. Mileena
15. Tanya (Wall only Inf, Unbreakable)
16. Kobra (Throw Infinite near wall, hard to do, not a factor)
17. Jade
18. Baraka (Near impossible to land his wall infinite online...not a factor)
19. Ermac
20. Kenshi
21. Sindel
22. Li Mei
23. Sub-Zero
24. Kira (Her Time Inf doesn't work online)

konqrr~no way ashrah belongs in the top 10. shes to weak vs low attacks.

im also starting to believe sindel doesnt belong in the low tier area. she only has major issues vs dairou and scorpion..

01. Bo' Rai Cho
02. Dairou
03. Noob-Smoke
04. Scorpion
05. Kobra
06. Shujinko
07. Darrius
08. Liu Kang
09. Kabal
10. Mileena

What the... How... Dude, when did he drop ~ 10 spots?
I think you need to play me again...

peace

w0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RAIDEN MADE IT TO TOP 10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hoyes baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i own =P


also jades "online" inf works offline, same with rai (rais second stance one)

Why is Hotaru better than Liu, Kobra and Mileena? The rest sounds about right I think, I'd just say Baraka is better than Jade (Jade = more punishable than Baraka) and Nightwolf is better than Tanya, Jade and Baraka. Also, like MrSchpfmut I wonder why Kobra has fallen out of grace?

Did you take free throws into account when compiling the tier list? If so, why is Kenshi better than Li Mei?

Just questions, no fanboyism at work here :).

Cheers,
VQ

this list is way off places

i mean hotaro on 8 wtf

kobra 13 lol

jinko is too high,and ashra too


ashrah on 1 in teh infinte list is also too high,it should be 1.darrius 2.noob smoke 3.ashrah

if gauntlet 3 hits ur dead,df3 hits ur dead,if u get thrown ur dead,ns has also the same shit but due to lag issues u may fuk up the infinite combo sometimes but he has many ways to set it up,but darrius is killer teh inf is also unbreakable and easy to do anywhere on teh screen...ashrah also but the other 2 are better because of better set ups.

Oops, I forgot to swap Kenshi and Li Mei.

As for Kobra not so good anymore...yes, he does HUGE damage pokes like Jade and the block stun combo, the free throws, etc. He has only ONE mid move in his first two stances. The only reason he was top tier in the original list was because of the Kali Sticks d+3 rushing. That strategy isn't as effective as it used to be. If I'm Ashrah and I anticipate a d+3, block it, then hit you with Ba Gua b+4 or f+3~cs~u+2 or Chao Jiao f+1~cs~cs~u+2...you will eat a free throw and lose at LEAST 30% just by attempting a d+3. Kobra is still a really good character, but the other characters have newly discovered strengths. Low Fireball is overrated also.

Mileena isn't safe after Mian Chuan 41. Her only truly safe moves in MC are her sweep (free throw), b+22, and d+1. If she does anything else she is open to Kabal's Spin, Ninja Sword f+1, Ermac Slam, etc...pretty much anything. Online lag makes more things safe, but for the most part, she really isn't that safe.

Hotaru's risk/reward ratio heavily favors reward. High damage, Pi Gua is one of the best sidestepping stances (there are ways around Universal Tracking). One popup leads into an unbreakable plant move, which then leads into a mixup of another popup/throw into another plant. Anyone can use that split second as you recover from a plant to see where you are blocking to keep you on the ground. Hotaru is one of the best at this. BSF 21cs (2 hits mid), csb1, walk under, free throw, plant is over 40% I believe and plants which leads to Hotaru's biggest strength.

Ashrah has many ways to deal with low pokes. She is top 5. Her infinite is much easier to do than Darrius' as he has much room for error, each throw has to be timed just right. Her infinite is unbreakable, Darrius' is only unbreakable when he has them pinned against the wall. I will give Noob-Smoke the top spot for the Infinite list as Ashrah vs NS is a VERY bad matchup for her, but then it's Ashrah, then Darrius for the number 2 and 3 spots, respectively.

REVISED INF LIST:
1. Noob-Smoke
2. Ashrah
3. Darrius
4-24. blah blah

REVISED (non-inf) LIST:
01. Bo' Rai Cho
02. Dairou
03. Noob-Smoke
04. Shujinko
05. Ashrah
06. Scorpion
07. Darrius
08. Hotaru
09. Liu Kang
10. Raiden
11. Kabal
12. Mileena
13. Kobra
14. Nightwolf
15. Baraka
16. Jade
17. Ermac
18. Tanya
19. Havik
20. Li Mei
21. Sindel
22. Kenshi
23. Sub-Zero
24. Kira

I think there should be TWO tier lists;one for online and one for off-line,but here's how I believe it is for ONLINE (no infinite combos):

1. BRC (by FAR the best character in the game IMO)

2. Dairou (he's the second best online,but off-line I'd put him one or two spots lower)

3. N/S (obvious)

4. Shujinko (free throws into insane damage;also has certain special moves that are usable in approrpiate situtations)

5. Darrius (he IS underrated;he has the easiest 50/50 mix ups in the game,and a spammable 3 in weapon stance online;off-line,he is a little bit weaker)

6. Kobra (who says he only has d+3?d+1 is also great.f+1 can also act as a mid attack and is fairly safe)

7. Scorpion (f+1 is too good;it really is,but his 50/50 mix ups aren't that good as the ones from the above characters)

8. Kabal (Flash punishes almost EVERYTHING for 55% damage;u+2 is too good,but the only thing that sucks about Kabal is his damn throw)

9. Ashrah (easy 50/50 mix ups due to inescapable throw;nice combos,etc.)

10. Liu Kang (damn,this guy can be played like a motherfucker;pure 50/50 mix ups)

BRC, Dairou, N/S - God-Tiers

Shujinko, Darrius, Kobra, Scorpion, Kabal, Ashrah, Liu - top tiers

In the top 10,everyone can beat everyone,but Dairou can cause some match up problems.Bo is nearly unbeatable by everyone.N/S is probably the best anti-Bo when used correctly ONLY.

PS:Hotaru isn't THAT good.His throw is escapable,which allows room for breathing for your opponent.Liu has better 50/50 mix ups than him I believe,and so does Kobra.

01. Bo' Rai Cho
02. Dairou
03. Noob-Smoke
04. Shujinko
05. Ashrah
06. Darrius
07. Kobra
08. Scorpion
09. Liu Kang
10. Hotaru
11. Jade
12. Mileena
13. Kabal
14. Raiden
15. Tanya
16. Nightwolf
17. Baraka
18. Havik
19. Kenshi
20. Sindel
21. Li Mei
22. Ermac
23. Sub-Zero
24. Kira


personally, i think this is what the tier list should look like. without considering how people use them. i mean, just because say thug is super raiden shouldn't make him really high on the tier list, ya know? i agree with you that hotaru is good as hell. easy combos. two buttons do 28%. fantastic 50/50 mix-ups. quite a quick character also. but raiden should be lower and jade should be higher and kenshi needs to be moved. and ermac is lower also. he isn't that good of a character. kenshi is way better than him lol. i mean, i'm all for ermac moving up, but he just isn't that good of a character IMO. i use kenshi sometimes and he's a lot better lol.

umm, no Kobra is weak in Kali, all his mids in kali arnt really mids, if you duck F1 without blocking, it wont hit, same with up+1or 3 not sure the only good mid is b+3

ashrah isnt High Tier either, i can duck her all day and low poke her, same with jade, jade is weak vs pokes too, if somones spaming her long ass combo, ill just duck and upercut her Hotaru is Def top 10 Tier, his Grab is a free hit, if you grab than let them land and do b+1, cs, 2,2,up+1 its 45% His 50/50 mixups are awsome and his Secdon stance is one of the fastest lius 50/50 isnt all that good, his grableads to free dmg IF you time it PERFECT same with kobra btw, only good thing about Liu is Pao umm, hmm....thats about it i think, oh yeah, Rais God tier...when used by me =P .......jk, but he is atleast top 10, his 5050 is great, he has the fastest sweep in the game, F1 in nan owns everything not to mention his best feature his Tel, whitch makes his moves safe 90% of the time (when used right) the only downside to rai is staff it has no mids, but it has GREAT lows so either way rai is top 10 tier, and deff better than ashrah

umm, no Kobra is weak in Kali, all his mids in kali arnt really mids, if you duck F1 without blocking, it wont hit, same with up+1or 3 not sure the only good mid is b+3

ashrah isnt High Tier either, i can duck her all day and low poke her, same with jade, jade is weak vs pokes too, if somones spaming her long ass combo, ill just duck and upercut her Hotaru is Def top 10 Tier, his Grab is a free hit, if you grab than let them land and do b+1, cs, 2,2,up+1 its 45% His 50/50 mixups are awsome and his Secdon stance is one of the fastest lius 50/50 isnt all that good, his grableads to free dmg IF you time it PERFECT same with kobra btw, only good thing about Liu is Pao umm, hmm....thats about it i think, oh yeah, Rais God tier...when used by me =P .......jk, but he is atleast top 10, his 5050 is great, he has the fastest sweep in the game, F1 in nan owns everything not to mention his best feature his Tel, whitch makes his moves safe 90% of the time (when used right) the only downside to rai is staff it has no mids, but it has GREAT lows so either way rai is top 10 tier, and deff better than ashrah

umm, no Kobra is weak in Kali, all his mids in kali arnt really mids, if you duck F1 without blocking, it wont hit, same with up+1or 3 not sure the only good mid is b+3

ashrah isnt High Tier either, i can duck her all day and low poke her, same with jade, jade is weak vs pokes too, if somones spaming her long ass combo, ill just duck and upercut her Hotaru is Def top 10 Tier, his Grab is a free hit, if you grab than let them land and do b+1, cs, 2,2,up+1 its 45% His 50/50 mixups are awsome and his Secdon stance is one of the fastest lius 50/50 isnt all that good, his grableads to free dmg IF you time it PERFECT same with kobra btw, only good thing about Liu is Pao umm, hmm....thats about it i think, oh yeah, Rais God tier...when used by me =P .......jk, but he is atleast top 10, his 5050 is great, he has the fastest sweep in the game, F1 in nan owns everything not to mention his best feature his Tel, whitch makes his moves safe 90% of the time (when used right) the only downside to rai is staff it has no mids, but it has GREAT lows so either way rai is top 10 tier, and deff better than ashrah

then u can move night wolf up a tad, off a throw, he has almost 60 in tae kwan do - throw, wait, 2, cs, 1, 2, 3, 4, ff 4= 58%

as well as tanya who has 47 off a throw from anywhere on screen in
Yue Chaun
throw, ff3, 2, cs, 1, 1, U+1 = 47%

and sub zero who has 65 off a free ice clone. in Dragon: 1, 1, 2, ice clone,
B+2, cs, 1, 2, 1, 2, 4, cs, 2, U+4 = 65%....
peace

not to mention, free ice clone for sub zero,

in dragon : 1, 1, 2, ice clone, cs, B+2, cs, 1, 2, 1, 2, 4, cs 2, U+4 =70%

this alone should move sub up to close to top tier

If I trust anyone about tiers in MKD, it's you Thug. Let's have some games so I can see your Ashrah countering (of course you'll own me, as i suck lol). I want to see if she really has no counter for low attack spamming.

Get on AIM fool...

If it takes a 10 tier player to even be competitive against my Sindell, why is she ranked so low?

@Konqrr actually darrius's infinte is unbreakable also : throw,d,f+3,ss throw

yeah hotaru is pretty good pi gua d+1 is the shit ba shan fan b+4 is good also,his throw is ok and he has good planters and a nice special but he is not in the top 10 maybe 13-14 at best his mids are not safe and his throw his breakable and it gives ur opponent time to reposition himself

and kabals hooksword stance is also a very good sidestepping stance and u+2 cant be sidestepped it always tracks,the spin is deadly so I officially vouch for kabal being in the top 10 again at least lol.

VF all the way.

Breakers are way overrated due to quick recovery (QR). If I throw you in Pi Gua and you break, I can do QR and quick walk (tap forward fast) back to you. Even if you backdash I can still get you. If my back is to the wall and I throw you, then you break the throw...I can QR and throw you again before you even recover from the breaker. Breakers leave you at a disadvantage more often than not. I'm not saying they are useless, they can save your ass...but you better know when to use them and when not to use them.

For the most part, online, Hotaru's Pi Gua b+1 mid launcher is safe due to lag issues. You really have to see it coming to counter it.

Hotaru is top 10 for sure.
--Plus, there is a way to sidestep where universal tracking will not work. Even U+2 with Kabal in HS.