MK Gameplay Primer + MKDA's & MKD's failed fighting system written for everyone to understand in one post. Pg2: Solutions. Pg6: Simpler Explanations & Analogies. UPDATE: Pg8: Frame Ad

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I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

•08/24/2004 04:08 AM (UTC) •

I've done some damage and movelist comparisons between MKDA and MKD movies. While I'm not particularly sure how they changed the ratios of damage/execution speed/delay of all moves, some have definately changed.

Sub-Zero's Shotokan 2
MKDA = Approximately 8.25% damage
MKD = 11% it looks like

I'm not sure if this applies to a lot of the other singular moves that can't be stringed, but its helpful to see the movelist at least has been looked at.

Satyagraha

@Satyagraha

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•08/24/2004 04:25 AM (UTC) •

lol!!

"right click, save as"

HDT: Was that damage inflicted under any type of special circumstances, or was it just a natural hit?

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gabe687
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•08/24/2004 04:29 AM (UTC) •

MK would play great with this lay out.

1=Block
2=Punch
4=Kick
3=stage interaction = off wall attack, pick up weapon
L=style change left
R=style change right

This would be a very comfortable and useful lay out IMO.

If I were to make MK, I'd get rid of the 3 styles idea and just have 1 hand and 1 weapon style.

In that case, the lay out may look something like this.

1=Block
2=punch
3=stance change = Hand or weapon
4=kick
124, or 134= off wall attack and stage weapon.

The hand and weapon stances would each have smaller stances sort of like Lei Wulong, Nightmare and Kilik have. The number of extra stances would depend on the fighter's style.

About Me

I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

•08/24/2004 05:34 AM (UTC) •

HDT: Was that damage inflicted under any type of special circumstances, or was it just a natural hit?

It looks like natural hit, check out the unseen vids posted by ultimate ryu at: http://xboxyde.com/game_527_en.html. (gotta sign up though)

In one of the movies, Sub-Zero pokes 33% of Sindel's life away with three Shotokan 2's. It's really hard to tell though from the movie however. I'll try doing some pixel measuring with photoshop or something.

Bleed Wrote:
MK would play great with this lay out.

1=Block
2=Punch
4=Kick
3=stage interaction = off wall attack, pick up weapon
L=style change left
R=style change right

This would be a very comfortable and useful lay out IMO.

If I were to make MK, I'd get rid of the 3 styles idea and just have 1 hand and 1 weapon style.

In that case, the lay out may look something like this.

1=Block
2=punch
3=stance change = Hand or weapon
4=kick
124, or 134= off wall attack and stage weapon.

The hand and weapon stances would each have smaller stances sort of like Lei Wulong, Nightmare and Kilik have. The number of extra stances would depend on the fighter's style.

Hmmm yeah that would be a lot better Bleed, it'll also allow multi-stance martial arts like you said to be classified into smaller stances so it'd do them justice like drunken boxing.

Omega Supreme

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•08/24/2004 09:35 AM (UTC) •

Well, I don't have anything against the 1-2-3-4-block-SM-CS-system, it only should be a bit more obvious what the attack numbers really stand for. Changing this would really turn off most gamers too, I think.

Anyway, I wanted to add something fairly positive :) (yey).

I actually think that, while MKDA had many flaws, it was already better than MK4 or MKG. In MK4 nearly every character played the same (same combos, same speed, max damage evened out the stronger combos, etc etc -- actually this was just a 2D game with 3D graphics), and I hated that. Although in this department, as many have noted, MKDA could still have been a lot better, at least there were signs of improvement. I've been playing DA again last night, and it's fairly obvious that Drahmin is a vastly different character from, say, Scorpion.

Now, if Midway was to increase these differences between characters and let them spin down different trajectories in their styles and ways of playing, this would be great. However, I haven't seen much evidence yet of that in MKD. Although it looked like the players in the videos played purposely bad, I've not seen any evidence of them fighting in a totally different way.

Damn, this was supposed to be a positive thread :P.

VQ

krackerjack

@krackerjack

•08/24/2004 10:17 AM (UTC) •

VainQueur Wrote:
Well, I don't have anything against the 1-2-3-4-block-SM-CS-system, it only should be a bit more obvious what the attack numbers really stand for. Changing this would really turn off most gamers too, I think.

Anyway, I wanted to add something fairly positive :) (yey).

I actually think that, while MKDA had many flaws, it was already better than MK4 or MKG. In MK4 nearly every character played the same (same combos, same speed, max damage evened out the stronger combos, etc etc -- actually this was just a 2D game with 3D graphics), and I hated that. Although in this department, as many have noted, MKDA could still have been a lot better, at least there were signs of improvement. I've been playing DA again last night, and it's fairly obvious that Drahmin is a vastly different character from, say, Scorpion.

Now, if Midway was to increase these differences between characters and let them spin down different trajectories in their styles and ways of playing, this would be great. However, I haven't seen much evidence yet of that in MKD. Although it looked like the players in the videos played purposely bad, I've not seen any evidence of them fighting in a totally different way.

Damn, this was supposed to be a positive thread :P.

VQ

I agree with most of that, particularly that buttons should represent specific attacks (i think thats what you were getting at).
In MK:DA i really didn't like the fact that 3 could be an axe kick for one character, but a lunging punch type attack for another.

I think a system similar to Tekken's would be good (of course i don't want MK to become Tekken, but assigning a button to each is limb is a great idea), or maybe return to the hp/lp hk/lk system.
Obviously hk/hp would represent high attacks, and lk/lp could represent mid attacks, and attacks that lunged at the feet from a standing position perhaps.

I'd find it difficult to play with only one punch and kick button though. Thats a tad too general for my liking.

I dunno. Either way, i'd like a more universal style of play for all the characters as far as button presses go.

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gabe687
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•08/24/2004 03:32 PM (UTC) •

I tend to like the Tekken 4 button style much better than the VF 3 buttons.

The 4 buttons feel much more natural to me for some reason.

But I guess it also depends on how the attacks are used. Like SC2 or DOA3 feel very smooth and free for me.

But I still tend to like the Tekken lay out over the rest.

Since MK has such a small number of attacks, they can go with the 3 button lay out with no problem.

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"Tis true my form is something odd, But blaming me is blaming God. Could I create myself anew, I would not fail in pleasing you. If I could reach from pole to pole, Or grasp the ocean with a span, I would be measured by the soul, The mind's the standard of the man."
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•08/24/2004 03:45 PM (UTC) •

Bleed Wrote:
MK would play great with this lay out.

1=Block
2=Punch
4=Kick
3=stage interaction = off wall attack, pick up weapon
L=style change left
R=style change right

See what would be cool with this set up is you could have a diversity of attacks if you used punches and kicks along with switching stances back and forth instead of just forward.

In MKDA, if I wanted to start with Shang's Snake, branchinto Crane and back to Snake, I had to go through Jian(Straightsword) to do it making it harder to pull of those highly technical combos.

GD

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gabe687
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•08/24/2004 03:47 PM (UTC) •

Right, it seems like an obvious thing to have implemented.

I wonder why they didn't do it, or even in MKD. I don't think you can switch back in MKD.

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•08/24/2004 03:52 PM (UTC) •

Bleed Wrote:
Right, it seems like an obvious thing to have implemented.

I wonder why they didn't do it, or even in MKD. I don't think you can switch back in MKD.

And Boon said that the juggles would be inhanced I think.With so many people devising ways to pull off technical combos in MKDA, he would have known that back and forth style switching would have made it more creative.

I guees we'll have to see in October.

But another thing has bugged me. The linear attacks used in a 3D environment.

Why still use a 2D scheme for 3D? Just seems silly that they didn't think about it cause it would be more pratical.

GD

About Me

I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

•08/24/2004 07:18 PM (UTC) •

Switching stances back and forth would definately be nice.

As for the linearity of moves =P Every 3d fighter needs a healthy linear number of moves, that's why sidestep is good. But MKDA made it so that 85% of the moves were linear. I mean if Universal Tracking and Backdash Cancelling wasn't in, MK would definately be poke, sidestep, punish; rinse and repeat.

FLSTYLE

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•08/24/2004 07:26 PM (UTC) •

ghostdragon Wrote:
I guees we'll have to see in October. But another thing has bugged me. The linear attacks used in a 3D environment. Why still use a 2D scheme for 3D? Just seems silly that they didn't think about it cause it would be more pratical.

There's a lot of potential for solid 3D fighting in the current MK engine that hasn't been touched upon.

I'd like to see more moves based on the idea of MK:DA Scorpion's Special move/Stab button slash attack.

It provides a move that knock your opponent back a long way if you're in trouble, and shows how side-stepping can be done to great effect universally in future MK's.

The only thing I can see the side step being useful for so far are making projectiles look useless.

If projectiles can be made mutiple (one straight, forward, one to the left, another to the right), or thrown in different directions according to the choice of the player I think projectiles can be made useful in 3D fighting.

Some people have different viewpoints on what they use projectiles for, some use it as some to distract the opponent so that they can get in closer on them, but I like to think it can be used as a creditable form of attack, if done well.

Oni Lord Asmodeus

@asmodeus

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•08/24/2004 07:43 PM (UTC) •

EXELLENT POST!!! When DA was first released, I was able to look past those things (basically the gameplay as a whole) and enjoy the other element of the game, characters, story, etc., ut as someone else said, "...a figher is a bout competition..." When the GP is so unstrategical, the fun-factor goes to crap.

Again, great post and thank you. I just hope the guys at Midway get wind of this and react accordingly.

FLSTYLE

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•08/24/2004 07:57 PM (UTC) •

asmodeus Wrote:
EXELLENT POST!!! When DA was first released, I was able to look past those things (basically the gameplay as a whole) and enjoy the other element of the game, characters, story, etc., ut as someone else said, "...a figher is a bout competition..." When the GP is so unstrategical, the fun-factor goes to crap.

Again, great post and thank you. I just hope the guys at Midway get wind of this and react accordingly.

I just hope they saw the After playing VF Evo etc thread, there were 16 pages full of great gameplay ideas in that after 8 pages of misunderstanding of what the thread was about

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Mortal Kombat Online - The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
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•08/24/2004 07:57 PM (UTC) •

asmodeus Wrote:I just hope the guys at Midway get wind of this and react accordingly.

Hopefully for MK7. Actually.... why don't we send them our detailed concerns directly? Like in one huge email that's properly worded and addresses every flaw and possible solution the way HDTran started his first post?

GD

Omega Supreme

@VainQueur

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•08/24/2004 08:22 PM (UTC) •

They won't listen, unless that mail would be supported by a large portion of the forum members, or the site owners of major MK sites. But frankly, I don't see this happening soon, or perhaps only after everyone who played online witnessed what it's like...

VQ

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Mortal Kombat Online - The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
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•08/24/2004 08:24 PM (UTC) •

VainQueur Wrote:
They won't listen, unless that mail would be supported by a large portion of the forum members, or the site owners of major MK sites. But frankly, I don't see this happening soon, or perhaps only after everyone who played online witnessed what it's like...

VQ

Yeah, That's what I meant. A large number of people getting behind such a detailed critizism.

GD

About Me

I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

•08/25/2004 02:29 AM (UTC) •

Dang just saw the breakers, not sure what to think yet, will have to analyze all the angles in a bit, what do you guys think of it?

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•08/25/2004 03:45 AM (UTC) •

Just saw Scpropin's Breaker on Baraka. It's easy enough to do, but seems too easy almost.

GD

About Me

I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

•08/25/2004 03:50 AM (UTC) •

Hmm.. well the breakers have been shown to be 3 per match, and have only been shown to be done on block. What I'm considering right now that I posted on the breaker thread:

1) The breaker system has only been shown on block, does that mean that if you are getting hit in a ground-chain, you cannot use it? If you can only use it while you're blocking then... really it's kinda worthless. I mean think about it for a second. If you block a move and muchless a groundchain, the enemy is open for you to do a full combo and take full opprotunity to punish. But if you do a breaker, you do 0% damage instead? Why not just block it and punish?

2) Since it knocks back, does that mean that you can turtle with it with your opponent's back to a deathtrap and use it to break and knock your opponent through a deathtrap? Basically if you're in the right position, your enemy cannot attack you less they want to get broken and lunged into the deathtrap and forfeit the entire round?

3) Assuming it only works on block, since the breakers do 0% damage, which is fine, they still aren't useful to punish safer characters. So if you fight a character who does either a safe poke and an unsafe chain. You still wouldn't want to use it to punish the poke since it's 0% and you don't want to punish the chain with it since you can get off a full combo. So when is it truly useful?

4) With this breaker system, does that mean MKD will again not do a thorough counter, reversal, parry system for different stances and characters; and instead slap on universal breakers instead?

Many many questions that need direct answers or more videos.

About Me

I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.

•08/25/2004 04:55 AM (UTC) •

From myself from other thread: It is a knockback attack, which it does look like, it looks like Kung Lao's punch which gives you a wallhit in MKDA, wallhit moves, as shown in previous movies, are also death trap knocking moves.

It is Kung Lao's Shaolin Fist f+2, the enemy flops over exactly the same way and distance, only the camera is not adjusted. This move in MKDA causes a walltech opprotunity and thus a wallhit. All previous MKDA wallhit moves have been shown in MKD pushing people into deathtraps. It seems the above strategy might easily work. Fight someone with their back to a deathtrap, as soon as they attack, hit f+BL and your enemy will be hit by a 0% breaker that will send them to the deathtrap and through it, giving you an instant win. Therefore, when your enemy's back is against a deathtrap, they cannot attack without risking instantly losing.

Satyagraha

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•08/25/2004 06:43 AM (UTC) •

Breaker = bleh.

It's just one of those things I think we'll have to breakdown and see if it actually does anything, or nothing, lol. I like the idea of it being incorperated into death trap set ups. Play as though you're retarded, and win, WEEEEE!! lol

Random thought, but I'm getting a DC this weekend. LOTS of MKG going on, WOOT!

All this MKD garbage is making me play MK4 and UMK again, lol. Good stuff.

FLSTYLE

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•08/25/2004 01:33 PM (UTC) •

if you can only do it 3 times per round then it's a case of breaking 3 times then going back to MK:DA's gameplay

you can't really call that an improvement.

I don't like the whole breaking idea, a simple block, counter, reversal and parry system would've suited me fine.

MrSchpfmut

@MrSchpfmut

•08/25/2004 04:40 PM (UTC) •

I'm not sure on the breakers myself. Like the rest of you I'll have to see how they are performed to have a full opinion on them. If they are only on-block that's pointless, as Saty said somewhere, you can counter a 1,1 type of attack from any character in DA so a breaker gives you no advantage.

I'd also like to throw this down, though most of you probably read this in the last news update from Gamespot.

"Players familiar with Deadly Alliance will find a collection of new fighting styles, though things like style-branch combos and such are still present. All in all, the game plays roughly the same as Deadly Alliance, but you'll notice that the juggles and other little tweaks here and there make the game feel a bit more like some of the older, 2D MK games."

IF these guys who got to play the demo know anything of what they're talking about.... Um, i think it's better i don't say what i'm thinking right now....

I still want to play online though, i guess thats what i'm looking forward to. I hope they get that right, at least.