For the love of Jesus, go back to 2D!

1.) MKvsDC's overall mechanic is a good base to start from. I'd make it faster paced if the frames and everything cooperate. By the looks of it, this might require leaving alot of the goofy stuff out. I'm not talking the typical goofy stuff either. I'm talking like, everyone having a fundamentally different jab. That sort of thing is unnecessary, and isn't the sort of explicit individuality that we've been talking about anyway.

For instance: Everyone should have basically, the same jab that looks different. Not a right/left hook as a jab, not a overhand right/left as a jab....just a normal jab that only looks different because everybody looks different when they throw a jab.

ex.1) ex.2) ex.3) ex.4) ex.5) ex.6)

This "goofy stuff" I'm talking about also extends to the other basic moves too. Kicks, round houses, uppercuts, sweeps, ect. They're only different aesthetically, and that visual difference is only there because different people get the same move done a little differently. It's not a different move altogether. It's more like "My punch looks like this because I'm shorter than most people..." or because my character is a girl who learned how to throw a punch from a guy, or because my character is a fat guy..ect. It's still the same basic moves that every fighter learns though. MK1-T had this sort of thing in the bag....idk why they changed it. In MKDA-A nobody really has a normal, straight jab. Everything's super imposed and over exaggerated for no apparent reason. lol Scorpion and his round about wild-man swings? That axe kick? The chicken leg combo? haha...

Anyway.

Other goofy stuff is in stiff stances, odd-looking victory poses, and special moves that don't obey well known physical exertion practicality. I have some mercy for these things because it is fun to see what they come up with, but this goofiness should not be littered all over the game and every character. Take MK1 & 2 Shang Tsung...

ex.1) ex.2)

That was great because he was pretty much the only one who really just stood there, and "threw" his fireball. Made it seem like he was "just that powerful". So much so that he didn't obey the laws of momentum or external disbursement.

They did well with him in MK3-T, & they got him right again in MKDA-MKA. And again in MKvsDC. But these times, he obeys some of the laws of physics when he uses his powers. He's reactive to a disbursement of energy...he's more obviously recognizing a powerful blast was let off. This is all good for Shang Tsung because not only does it show technology taking a toll on what the character does, it also gives us a sense that he might be growing in some way along side the technological advance...getting stronger.

The problem comes about though, when we see more than only Shang Tsung able to just stand there and throw their projectile. Luckily this hasn't happened with Shang though, so I'm happy about that and continue to appreciate the character. However, the point is that this level of exclusivity should happen across the board if a character is worthwhile. Shang Tsung is worth being exclusive, so that's why he gets a specific brand of ideas and behaviors. We have about a thousand Liu Kangs and Kanos on the other hand though.
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But fundamentally speaking here, I'd like to see something like MkvsDc's mechanic without all the goofy crap attached to it. Obviously, no funky mode that asserts itself mid match, no frivolously extra weapons (not unless it's scarce and character specific, and is a part of their regular movesets or combos [UMK3 Scorpion, MKT Stryker, MkvsDc Deathstroke ect]), no stance switching (although it was a fun idea, it's pretty much dead now), and none of the aforementioned, which is the other type of goofy crap that's sprinkled all over these latest games.

Simplify and expand on a central theme that is a step forward from MK1-T.

2.) Once the concepts surrounding "the way fighting happens (programming and mo-cap, basically)" is simplified, it's time to think about the way fighting should be presented. For this I'd propose the movie choreographed, martial arts theme I've talked about a gazillion times by now.

With a central theme, the characters and their varying styles matter a little bit less than say, the switching styles of MKDA-A. This is a good thing, because a central theme for the fighting provides enough complexity that leaves avenues like the switching styles needless to be executed. Therefor, that energy and those ideas, can now be focused more on making the fighting and characters convincing, giving the characters specifics (exclusive moves and behaviors), and giving depth to the underlying mechanic (more moves, specials and fighting possibilities).

You see? If we're not worrying so much about "how many" fundamentally obvious ways we can use the engine, that experience, ("how many ways we can use the engine") is still there, but it is allowed to just be discovered instead of being forced down the players throats in the forms of alot of modes and mini-games.

This way, the core concept is allowed room to breathe(the fighting), the character concepts are allowed room to grow (explicit individuality), and the overall theme is allowed to have it's own regenerative personality (martial arts movie choreography becomes MK's definitive brand of gameplay). Which is replay appeal beyond the core mechanic. This is what the feel of choreographic implication would do for MK. It regenerates the watching and playing experience, and holds up the allure to the game, just like MK1-T...or 4 depending on your tastes and how old a fan you are.

MK1-T had this choreographic quality about it. Which is probably most due to using the digitized (real people) sprites. It's that they had to perform a specific move, and then that move from that real person had to be accurately captured. The side-effect in doing that, is the people behind the costumes shaped the persona's of the characters, as well as shaped the way MK's "brand" of fighting should be presented. They molded the standard, and when MK went 3D it broke, and ran away from that standard.

This idea, attempts to "put that quality back in the game".

3.) Once all those concepts and fundamentals are stamped down, then we can get into what I think this thread is actually asking for.

a. Dail-a-combo vs Strings - Strings win, but I wouldn't mind seeing something like presets. Simple stagnate combos that start us off. Especially if this is going to be another brand new mechanic.

b. 2D vs 3D vs 2.5D - I liked how 2.5D felt. I'd try to step forward from MK1-T with MkvsDc's conditions and flexibilities. To where it's 3D but, the way the controls are set up suggest that it's a 2D fighter.

c. Not really sure about how to work something like dodges in there unless it's an almost automatic thing. Something like block+back during the instance of an attack (similar to how parrying works in Soul Calibur). I could see characters quickly moving their head or body around or out of the way like the old martial arts flicks. And if you got good at dodging while someone is constantly attacking you, it might look alot like the way the guys move in Fearless Dragons. haha... Could add strategy, and would definitely be fun to watch.

d. Definitely like the prospect of throw releases. MK seems to have caught onto this sort of thing with MKvsDc. So as long as it's there come MK9 I'm good. Pressing an attack button (a punch or kick button) in the instance of being thrown is a good way to keep this mapped.

While I'm on throws, I don't want a bunch of throws in the game. Maybe have 3 per character. (1.) A wake up game throw of some sort (from the ground like a tumble, or getting up), (2.)some sort of transitioning throw (turned around with your back to your opponent, 360 degree walking like a hip-toss or shoulder toss, or like a running//"charging at you" throw would be transitional), and (3.) a signature.

I don't see a real reason to have many more than that. Although one or two characters like Scorpion might be privileged to have a special move that's a throw in the air. He had it before and it looked good so...there's as far as I extend on that.

e. I also liked how they gave Kano a reversal in MkvsDc. Everyone needs at least one though, and I'd make these character specific too. Meaning the aesthetic would be different, but the fundamental function would be the same. Alot like how MK is currently handling jabs. Everybody's doing something different, but it's the same button, same function, same objective. This one might map out on the controller *block+Forward*.

f. Far as parries go, since I really only like weapons as character specific aspects of their move sets, or as character specific specials, I'll refer back to that Fearless Dragons link I posted above. It looks good for the hand-to-hand version of what I think MK's parry system could possibly behave like (22sec-27sec for feet and leg parries, 28sec-30sec for hand and arm parries). Using forearms, legs, shoulders, the head, and so on to deflect an incoming blow could be handled similar to that.

I'd probably map the parry on the controller as block+down, or block+an attack button like punch or kick, or block+forward+an attack button. It will only trigger if your attack button, is relative to their attack button. When someone is throwing a blow at your block, you have to be pressing a punch button to match their punch button attack, or in the case that their throwing a kick at you, you have to match their kick. So it's a 50/50 guessing game on parries, but that seems fine to me.

g. Wake-up game. Y'know to be completely honest with you, in any other game that has a deeply organized wake-up system, I am annoyed by it. I like to get right up and get back to fighting. So yes, I absolutely think MK needs to have some kind of wake-up system in place, and it needs to be competent in order to handle the majority of problems we face after we fall down. But I personally don't wanna see anything that let's me go from a perfectly fine standing position, and lays down on the ground flat. I want my opponent to have to knock me down. I feel it defeats the purpose to go down willingly.

So here's how I might handle it. If you get knocked down, you should be able to roll around. Yes, you should also be able to at least kick while laying flat on the ground. No funny jump up move involved right there, but a fast attacking get-up move was appreciated in MKA too. So I'd look into keeping that sort of thing as well. In addition, I'd look into seeing if we can block while on the ground in some way too. Check out Jet Li in Fearless (2:20secs - 2:35sec). Of course, not that some character will want to jump on you like that but, what if they did? And what if they were good with getting hits in on you on the ground? I would like to see how blocking on the ground would work against different kinds of low kick attacks.

However, the missing pieces that I would finally add, would be the capability to do an "on the way up" combo, and "from the ground" special moves. Some assholes just won't back up! lol Giving me the opportunity to kick the shit out of your shins or zap the hell out of you from the ground (Raiden in MKA's intro video.) would be delightful.

I think that once you're on the ground, these little moves should be as simple as possible. Block on the ground is the same button to block when you're standing. To do a special move, simply press something like Forward and a punch button. And to do a combo, tap in stuff like forward and some typical combo sequence. Forward+Hk, Lk Hk...for example. Add a special move onto that, which is performed at the end of that combo, after you're standing up. We could also have the option of a simple sweeping get up move.

But again, if there's gonna be a wake-up mechanic in there, keep that thing simple. Simple commands and all. I'd almost wanna opt for just making it easier to...get up. But when we look at it more closely, the point is to continuously fight....and if you can't at least defend yourself from the ground, it demolishes that very point. So, there should be one in there that is competent, but it should definitely be simpler than that of the technical fighting games out there.

h. Stuns are okay, but the obvious "stun moves" should be character specific special moves I think. Obviously, the stun property should be shared to some degree...but I just don't feel that everyone on the roster absolutely needs to have a move in their arsenal that permits a free hit. I hate to stop fighting in the middle of a fight. haha...

i. Frame sensitive moves are wonderful! Yes please. Frame sensitive moves gives us hope! lol I loved finally being able to squeeze another move in there because an MK game was designed to let me do it. It's like finding little Easter eggs within the mechanic, without being the gameplay guru that is Check. lol! It's wonderful to find these things and it makes your strategy unique.

Couple things though, I don't know that I'd keep the aesthetic that MKvsDC employed. The sound effect and the transparent bubble wasn't terrible, but I'd probably just try a different indicator next time. I think the whole "rage" thing may be clouding my judgment on this one though.
Also, combos in MkvsDc felt constricted, or they felt like someone put a limiter on how fast and continuous I could do moves in a sequence. I would jam out a combo I know works on pace with the game, but it just would not respond quickly enough, and it would not let me do more. Felt like the game was telling me how to play instead of the other way around.

Again, this is probably due to goofy crap like everyone having untypical basic moves to string together. Physics tells us you can't constantly throw a bunch of hay-makers back to back to back, and expect a rapidly paced combo to happen. Hundredths of a second count alot when fighting. I don't like sitting there waiting for the animation of a wide swinging jab to finish, in order to do the next move in my combo. Yin & Yang man...hard and soft moves in the move list...not only hard hitting moves. That or speed up the animation right there like old martial arts flicks used to do.

First thing I wondered is if they could accomplish the look, feel, pace, and ferocity of the 2D games' combos, with this MKvsDc system? Hence, strengthening the choreography idea. I figured if the moves were mapped out in a way that suggested a series of hits should happen, but after each hit I could stop, or do something else, I would've loved it. I'm thinking to myself the whole time: "The only time the mechanic should stop me, is when physically, my characters can't work a certain way." Like trying to do a HK, and then follow it up with a ducking low punch. That's a physically unlikely scenario in a "combo" situation.
Another one would be wide swinging haymaker punches, followed by some kind of roundhouse kick...Like Scorpion in MkvsDc (7-8 seconds in) courtesy of Check4900. Of course it looks cool, and of course I like how it looks, but you want that stream of four hits or so, to happen faster so you can do more of a combo. Like a step forward from UMK3-T (5sec or so in). haha...

j. Counters - never really cared for these, but I see how important they are. What I mean is, by the time I'd get into learning how to utilize these, my interest is lost when I'd use them in other games. So if there's a practical way to implement them, without making everything in the mechanic a maze, of course I'm all for it.

k. Yea...
- no breaking bones,
- no pick-up-able items laying around in the arena (if anything maybe there could be stuff to trip over, otherwise it's water or land for me and that's it.),
- Minimize deathtraps and make them harder to get knocked into. Maybe only open them up in the deciding rounds of a match. What an alert that would be for the looser of the first round.
- Body/Facial damage is cool, but it doesn't really do anything. I think it's a cool way to waste some memory. Even in SC4 I don't care about it, I'm either gonna win...or not.
- no "middle of the match fatalities", I've seen that one a few times too. I've always wondered why people would wanna shrink the fighting time down even more than it is. (it's only about 2 actual mins inside a match with someone, the rest of the time is loading the match lol)
- no, I don't wanna impale, or be impaled

...ect ect ect

Most of my answers to alot of this stuff will be a big fat "NO". All the add-ons, mini-games and modes have other places that they could work without getting involved, and in the way of the fighting mechanic. The way arenas, and the general fighting mechanisms behave have to stay relatively simple, otherwise it's not playable as a fighting game. It'd just a bunch of modes and mini-games lumped together. I don't want that.
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Tried to address these issues short and sweet. But you know me, I addressed them, it just ended up long anyway. lol

That is all.

TLDR, but...

So you are basically saying that different styles should not be incorporated and everyone should have the same jab/move with only minimally different dimensions?

That would be the point when my already minimal interest would turn into downright detestation.

No I'm not.

I'm saying a haymaker is not a jab. There is no jab that is wide-swinging so why assign and map that move as such? Not only that, but waiting for that animation to finish, in order to get to the next move in the succession is a waste of time. Scorpion (about 6sec in) *hook, hook, kick, kick, teleport, uppercut*

Seems petty because I'm talking about hundredths of seconds but, if I wanna throw a right hook, *Fwrd+Punch* or something.

I agree with most of your ideas Pred. The thing I dislike is the parry you explain...I would rather just have good ole fashioned block and maybe counter.
As for the wake up...I could not see our favorite MK characters rolling around on the ground lol. Seems too out of place...it worked in other games yes but maybe something else to take the place of rolling around. How about something like the attack wake up in Bloody Roar when the fallen opponent rises with a spring kick (not sure what the name of it is at the moment).
All in all...I mainly agree that even with it being basic and simple...it can end up being complex anyway. As far as combos...personally to me it does not matter too much but in my opinion I like it old school like MK3 - MK Trilogy or even like Killer Instinct. Hell...that would be a good idea...use a Killer Instinct type combo system that ties into a finisher. Instead of it being called an Ultra Combo...make it Brutality. EDIT: To touch on a parry/counter system or rapid blocking session...I could see something similar to lets say Dragonball Z but it would probably end up being similar to the close combat mechanics...following button presses or just an all out button mashing contest like test your might. I wouldn't mind it but it may slow the fluidity of game play if implemented the wrong way.

with new technology everday video games seem to get more real and more realalistic to a certain standpoint. the fact that mk9 is supposed to be more violent and fun than the rest in the series. that got me thinking what are they talking about. were they talking about the gameplay, story or modes. well mk was always about the fatalitys and specials that got me thinking all the other stuff got left behind. in most fighting games there are alot of strategic elements that enhance the fighting.

in mka they brought back the air fighting and brought in the parry systom that was very unbalenced and looked very cheesy. so in mk9 heres how i would like to see the gameplay get tweaked a bit.

kicks - that includes high, medium, low, special kicks and knee related moves. most high kicks are related to pop ups which you use that way so you can juggle your opponnet for a bit. high kicks also allow you to break through low and medium guards. also high kicks give the enemy an opening to allow medium and low attacks to connect. i'd like to see more variety when you use your lower part of your body to inflict damage to your enemy. like vertical, horazontal, diagnal, across, fast, medium and slow kicks. every kick should be reversable. it's just about timing.

punches - that includes high, medium, low, special punches, chops, elbow strikes, and various palm attacks. most punches are used mostly in a fight. high punches work similar to an uppercutt which can lead to juggles in the air. also high strikes using the upper part of your body can break through low and some medium guards. punches should be mixed up to allow various strikes using the upper part of your body. like kicks i'd like to see more variety. every punch should be reversable. it's just about timing.

sweeps - allow to catch an enemy off guard. sweeps can range from various swipes with your fist or even your feet. sweeps should be very fast and only be able to block if you are guarding low. i'd like to see more variety in sweeps. all sweeps should be reversable. it's just about timing.

locks- are used to stop or stun the enemy for a free hit unless the can counter it which would allow them for a free hit. can be used on low, medium, high strikes. locks can also be accessable while in the air.

holds- like locks there are used to stop an enemy causing for a free hit unless they counter your hold with an reverse button. hold can be accessed in the air or even on the ground.

throws- are used when someone uses the sidestep alot or even if someone wont let you get out of the corner or etc. i'd like to see multiple throws for each fighter. some approaching, some backing up, back, front, left, right, and even air throws. all throws should be reversable.

parrys- my term of parry is quite different than the one in mka. parry for me is you switch sides with your opponnet giving you a possible free hit. which is very handy and also usefull. parry should be accessable on ground and even in the air.

counters- is just what the term means and i feel every move except a fatality should be counterable. cause in real life you need to learn to adapt in order to be a better fighter.

specials- all specials should be unblockable. but you can counter the special with maybe one of your own depending if projectile or strike special. specials should be limited in the fight. they cause the most damage and are very accesable to all fighters. some specials all you have to do is duck or jump back to not be hit. specials should open up new areas to fight in if it hits an wall or floor or etc.

blocking- all moves should be blockable except specials and fatalitys. blocking is more of a defensive strategy to try and overwhelm your opponnet.

air combat- like to see improved greatly. all moves except specials should be unblockable in the air. all moves can be countered in the air. this would make for some sweet air fights. in the air you can use counter, parry, holds, locks to stop juggles and turn the fight in your favor.

arena activity- all arenas should have multiple tiers which cause sever damage. stage fatalitys should be brought back. all moves and throws can lead to another area. specials and powers should play an impact on the arena. heres a few examples - sky temple if you use sub zero he can cause the rain to turn to hail causing small damage. cyrax uses bomb causes a hole in the floor. scorpion uses his spear to swing around the tree to kick the opponnet in the face in the living forest.

sorry for being so long but i had quite abit of time on my hands plus have not posted in a while. like ideas. feel free to comment and post your ideas.

MK needs some serious lovin in the department.

First things first, the basic: Highs>Mids>Lows>Highs system, and the grabs>reversals>strikes>grabs.

Stuns: Something other than scorpions stupid spear of Sub-Zero's stupid freeze. How about a punch that would stun on counter hit.

Blocking: I really hate the idea of chip damage, get rid of it.

Counter Hits: An opponent should receive more punishment when they are countered with another attack by being stunned or taking more damage.

Remove Breakers: There is no skill involved in this retarded phenomenon called "breakers". Get rid of them.

A real reversal system: While being attacked, an opponent can counter high punches/kicks, low punches and kicks, and overhead punches and kicks. A window not as ginormous as DOA's, but just a liiiittle bit larger than SC's.

Parries: SOME characters have parries, some don't, this would help in diversity between characters.

A real sidestep game: Not like.... no move tracks if you sidestep at the last second, that's way too scrubish. DOA3.1's tracking was awesome, so anything I say will be a duplication of that.

Tech crouches/jumps: This move automatically ducks high's, that move automatically jumps over lows, etc.

Charge ups: This would be a nice addition, make some of them break blocks, make some of them unblockable.

A REAL throw system: Where every character has 3-10 throws, 10 for grapple type characters like say, Jax.

A REAL throw breaker system: With throws must come throw breaks, so that people can't use that guaranteed throw shit from MKD

Moves that evade/whiff: Would make MK players actually have to think when playing the game..... scary huh?

Pro Moves: I love the idea of pro moves from MKvs.DC, give each character 2-8 of those. Something that actually requires practice in Mortal Kombat. I remember reading how people hated these, lol, they actually have to work to pull off a move in Mortal Kombat.

None of that cheesy in-game mini-games: Just no..... That's all I got to say.... just no.

Test your might: This mini-game is not very good for the reputation MK has as a button masher.

Fighting stances: Not like in MKDA or MKD, I mean like DOA-ish stances that a character goes into, they could be major or minor, it doesn't matter.

Air combat: ......FOR CHARACTERS WHO CAN FLY ONLY. Like Sindel, Nitara, Ermac, and I suppose Raiden. And for Christ's sake, make it look semi-realistic, not that stupid shit from MKA where pressing B bounces them on the ground and right back in front of you.

Shakable stuns: Moves like Scorpions stupid spear or sub-zero's stupid freeze SHOULD BE SHAKEABLE unless on counter hit.

Larger movelists: MK is a 3D fighter now.... give each character their own specific moves like, 40 strings, 5 throws, 4 counters, 1 parry, and 8 special attacks. Like that. Emphasis on the 40 strings.... YES Mk should contain some damn memorization. LAnd I'm being really nice about the 40, I would much rather prefer a movelist with 120 strings.

Harder Inputs: What's the hardest input in MK usually look like? Foward, Back, A.... OMG SO CHALLENGING. Compare that to the hardest notation in say... soul calibur.... Down-forward, quarter circle back, down forward, up forward, down back, A+G..... THAT is a challenge. Of course I'm not saying put those kind of moves in MK, maybe one or two characters could have a throw that difficult, but what I mean is put in notations like diagonals, hold the button down, left-neutral, two buttons pressed at a time, half circle forward then down. Ya know? Hopefully this could reduce the amoutn of button mashed on this peice of crap.

Death Traps: I never liked the idea of one hit kills, so at least make it like Punch punch would send you flying at a 60 degree angle into rotating spinners. Make it a tad bit more difficult to do death traps, but then again, I don't really care because they can turn them off.

and most importantly:

MOST IMPOOOORTTAAANTLYYY

CHARACTER DIVERSITY: I don't know how to express this any more. I hate games where once you know how to play one character, you can play most of them, because they're so Goddamn similar. Make each character different and special in their own way; Ermac has a flight stance, Cyrax can magnatically approach his opponent, Nitara can move her shadow which are really bats that push the opponent towards her, Sindel can attack with her hair like punches and kicks, Jade's boomerang takes a certain amount of time to get back so her combos are different every time, Shinnok can raise the hands during hit combos producing baricades in the middle of the stage, stuff like that you know?

I really don't know how to emphasize that this game needs character diversity... unless I do this:

CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
CHARACTER DIVERSITY
NAO

- The user bleed (Gabe) has been working on a MUGEN MK game for a while, and has some interesting ideas in his Wake-up game vid. Watch Liu Kang's parry animations starting at about 3:30secs, at 3:55secs, and again at around 4mins... That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. That's in 2D. In 3D however, it might look closer to that Fearless Dragons link I posted.

- The wake-up sweep move that I was talking about can be seen in that same link at 3:07sec, and elsewhere throughout the vid.

Note: I just watched this video, I didn't know he did that. We must just have a similar thinking about a couple of these ideas.

- On rolling around, I'm pretty sure we got about as much as I would want to tolerate in MKD & or MKA. We already had/have rolling, and I'm pretty sure it's there in MKvsDC too, but I think it's just more subtle.

- As for that wake-up attack idea // (Ed calls it a "get-up attack"), we also had that in MKA. I think it was goofy to tell you the truth. What would make that concept alot better would be if we had more wake-up options than just that one, and that "get-up attack" was one of the moves some select characters had on their move-list. Another way to make that "get-up attack" concept better, is if it were just a special move (like Raiden in MKA's intro vid), or if it were a part of some simple combo that we could do from the ground getting up.

There's a few examples in one of the best choreographed fighting scenes I've ever seen, Jackie Chan vs Benny "the Jet" Urquidez.

Check out Benny's ground work at about 12secs in, he punches, dodges, kicks, kicks (looks like a ground-based round house), then he rolls away and stands up. Ground Tech stuff right there. Either you're laying down or you're one knee-up.

At about 3:20secs, Jackie gets swept to the floor. He then has to block, gets hit in the stomach, parrys quickly then Benny grabs Jackie's neck, [Jackie then throws a knee, then scissor grabs Benny's neck]. Brackets mean that's a combo.

Those are scenarios that have potential as moves (attack & defense) in MK. Of course not "exactly" like that, because we gotta think about how feasible getting a camera angle on it is BUT, the moves they're exhibiting should be possibilities for us in Mortal Kombat. There's also physics, and moves that turn into "auto" situation where we might not reasonably be able to control the character during the move.

Other fighting games have auto-situations, which is a very small part of why I don't like playing them. But with enough small reasons, they add up.



Don't mean to cherry-pick your post, but you are describing a reversal. To parry means to "deflect or slide off", and it's commonly thought of in relation to Fencing, or any other sort of sword fighting really.

This video is chalked full of parrys. Anytime they deflect a strike, or slide the enemy's blade away from their own body, it's a parry. Also, the movements right at the very end of this video, and what ends this sword fight is a reversal.

The hand to hand version of of a parry looks like this video here (30secs in for one good example). Any time Jet Li is not striking, but defends against the guys strikes instead of dodging, or ducking out of the way can be classed as a parry.

@ThePredator151...That first video was a good example and I think it works well with 2d but I can't see it for 3d. Now 2.5 I dunno. I think It could be implemented into blocking in general but not as a separate mechanic.

@acidslayers parry...I'm not seeing how Pred explains it as a reversal...to me it sounds more like dodging. Dodging is totally different than parrying but it could be fun. I believe there is dodging in Dragonball z...its a bit fast in that game but if slowed a bit it could be realistic enough for MK I guess.

@MyQueenSindel...I can see a larger move list yes but more combo strings I disagree with. Harder inputs for traditional special moves I can't see working for me either. I don't want to have to use an input like forward,down,forward,back,back+X for a special like a fireball...I can see for fatalities yes. Blocking damage as you call chipping I could put up with but only against special moves.Pro moves...I guess they did ok with it in MK vs DC but I could care less if they kept them.

Pi Gua Quan thrives on circular movements, that is why it is caled axe hand fist. The question is how to add properties for every single frame of animation for a particular movement.

This is why Aikido was awkward in DA. That style should have only consisted of reversals, but the idea is probably dropped because it would stand out. Who cares if it stands out, give a fighter a method of play that is highly counter-offensive!

I posted this thread on a different forum to see how they think of it, but I think I'm the only person there who truly wants Mortal Kombat to be a non-broken, competitive fighter.

I wanted to comment on, or just get you to elaborate on a few things here, even though I agree with most of what you've said. Hope that's alright.



Can you give me some detail on this? Simple comparison or a vid?



Stuns are not my favorite, I'll admit. To a degree it doesn't make sense to have them if I'm not saay, getting hit with a mallet over the head or something (even a backhand would justify it more in my mind). It's for this sort of reasoning that I think these could be more character specific. Shao Kahn with his war hammer, Drahmin with his club...ect. To that same degree, I really don't even consider Scorpions spear, or Sub-Zero's freeze real stuns. I separate those sorts of moves from actual stuns because those are just free hit moves to me, and not moves with the deliberate...
ending effect. They are stuns but, I just don't look at them like that I guess.

Specifically about Scorpions spear though, I wish it happened faster like it was. It's alot slower now than it used to be which took away alot about the surprise element that move used to have. It used to look like he actually threw the harpoon at you really hard. Now, it just looks like he's laying it out there for us in case we wanna take advantage of the opportunity to punish him for it. It's too easy to get around. Sub-Zero's freeze on the other hand, remains good. They keep improving the aesthetic as well so I'm not disappointed with that.



Why get rid of this? I think it's good because it forces people who wanna block all day long, to fight. Makes them realize that even if they just sit there and hold block, that they will still take little bits of damage regardless. Forces strategy out of them...makes them think about blocking as a tool in a strategy instead of just a safe haven in a match where they're getting their ass handed to them. Idk, I like that it's there.



Now that? I'd hate that. You're saying I counter your hit with a punch, but then you counter my hit with a punch and I take more damage? Nah, I'll pass on that. I mean, I'd respect it as a part of a work/reward system (because it should be harder to do on purpose), but I can just image these fights turning into turtle & counter fests.



They're not completely senseless, but I agree though. lol When I first heard of the term "breakers", I thought that if I caught your arm or something, I would actually be breaking your limb. That little stiff guard thing is silly and needs to go. And just to clarify, I don't like the idea of breaking limbs either. I think its' a lame idea.



Don't know exactly how I feel about that for MK because I haven't put much practice into it at all with any other game that I've played. SC, Tekken, VF..ect.



We differ here a little bit but I wanna try to break it down. I think that as a part of capturing a choreographed gameplay presentation or feel, they'd kinda have to share a parrying system between characters. Parrying, in a real fight is actually more instrumental than blocking. So, I'd lean more towards an elaborate parry and dodge system rather than making parrying character specific.

Way I figure it is, this is supposed to be a game full of "the best of the best" skilled characters....and so, they'd have to at least know how to move around really well in order to stay alive. That may be taking it a little too literally, but the point is, I think a dominate, carefully crafted parrying/dodge system, as opposed to all the countering some of these other games have would serve MKs Asian themes, and create a better martial arts movie choreographed feel in 3D/2.5D better.

This way, it'd actually behave like MK's 2D games looked. Which is like a fight scene from one of these martial arts movies. Watch any "best" martial arts flick, and you'll see a decent amount of blocking, a decent presence of counter attacking and reversals, alot of punches and kicks, alot of moving around their fight scene, and a crap load of parrying and dodging (which look like alot of blocking and moving out of the way).

In choreography, parrying and dodging is really what allows a fight sequence to last so long. Well, that and a few carefully placed pauses in the fight. It's also a big part of why the fights end up looking so good on screen, so long as they have a good choreographer involved. So what I'm proposing makes the fighting aesthetically more pleasing (like the 2D MKs were), as well as opens the mechanic up for more fighting possibilities. With a choreographed theme as the base idea for the fighting, they could tell what situations require a reversal, or a counter, or a parry...ect. Because it's organized around a central theme, and not just "put some reversals in because it doesn't currently have them".



Can you elaborate on these here please?



I like the idea of charge-ups and cancels. Raiden's charges worked out pretty well in MKvsDC. I'd actually prefer it if they stayed character specific like that. A charge up for everybody is not really needed. You'd get silly crap like Kano sharging up is throwing knife and so on. I'd give it to the "special characters though (Liu Kang["the one"], Shang Tsung or Quan Chi, Raiden, Shao Kahn, Shinnok, Scorpion, Grandmaster Sub-Zero...ect. Indication of an above-above average fighter.)



I think dodges would be fine alone but I agree. Only being able to side-step isn't really good enough. I like to stay in close range sometimes without having to resort to blocking all the time. This would/should eliminate breakers too. When I think of dodging in close though, I think of how Fight Night lets the characters lean out of the way in a few directions. Not sure how being able to lean out of the way when in close would work in MK though.

Lord knows I wouldn't want the close combat thing to return. The way that thing functioned was weird enough.



Agreed. Frame sensitive stuff is great and should be kept around as a part of any new system they come up with. It's a good opportunity for branding MK's gameplay too. A chance for them to advertise an element of gameplay that pretty much everyone likes.

And yea, I'd keep it hard to do too. All the bitching about how broken MK is, and when something comes along that's actually worth keeping in there, the cheek gets turned? Hm...Yep, it's supposed to be tough...justifies a practice area on the disc.



Do you mean placed where it was in MkvsDc? Having us button mash in the middle of real-time gameplay like that isn't good?

My view on Test Your Might is that it's a great opportunity for something worthwhile online. The concept is generalized enough to encompass any number of challenges in the game really. Test your might could be a team thing or individual...ect.

But yea, what do you mean by that?



By now I think they should have characters shifting their weight and overall stances around. Adaptive stances that react to what circumstance we're dealing with in the game. Weight distribution that allows us to notice the fighter might be on uneven terrain.

I think it's SF4 that has shifting stances in it. That would be cool enough for me right now, but I am talking about something more intelligent than that (more reliant on physics). The stagnate...monotonous stances could use an update. Could be one little indicator of ideas keeping up with technological advances if they did do something like this. It becomes an addition to other little annoyances when nothing else is greater for creativity missing in places like that. One the greater scale, it's not a huge issue though.



lol



A good idea.

--

I say don't do a damn thing to the fighting engine. Keep it simple. I don't want MK to be like Virtua Fighter or Tekken , I want it to be like Mortal Kombat.

I say bring it back to its MK II roots. Give everyone a standard set of punches and kicks, launchers ( uppercuts ) , sweeps , roundhouse / push back moves, and then finally give them their specials.

The only big change would be that while pressing HP repeatedly , instead of having the same punch punch punch animation, every characters animations be different to show off a different fighting style. And using fwd + kicks would allow you to throw out kick combo's.

Bottom line , keep it 2D based and ridged.

If you want Virtua Fighter or Tekken , play Virtua Fighter and Tekken.

Sooooooo, basically what you're saying is that you want to make a game that would be awesome by 1993 standards?

Since you want people that want MK to step into the 21st century to go play Tekken and Virtua Fighter, couldn't I just as logically say, if you want to play games that were cutting edge fifteen or sixteen years ago, why don't you sell your 360/PS3 or whatever, go buy a Genesis/SNES and play MK2, Super Street Fighter 2, Eternal Champions, Primal Rage, Weaponlord etc?

C'mon man, this is 2009. Given what systems are capable of doing in terms of graphics and gameplay, do you really want a rigid, 2D fighting game? Becuase you're basically saying that you want MK, one of the forbearers of the genre, to become essentially an Xbox live or PSN game.

I mean, I get it, MK along with SF were the standard bearers of the 2D fighting genre back in the day, and after four fully 3D fighting games, the MK series can't be considered one of the elites in the 3D fighting genre, but I'd rather they move forward and try to get it right, than move backwards and simply accept the fact that the series can't change with the times.

Remember, with the exception of SF4, most 2D fighters died before trying to make the jump to 3D. In fact, Street Fighter was pretty much dead for about 9 years before SF4 came out. MK was the only series to really try and make that transition from 2D to 3D. If MK had simply stayed 2D, I really don't think the series would be around today. This site would be around today either.

At least the MK team tried. Yeah, they failed at certain things, but they were also at the disadvantage that Namco, Sega or Team Ninja never had to deal with. They all started as 3D games from the ground up, while the MK team had to basically change the way they did everything and rebuild from the ground up. This of course, meant that MK:DA, the first REAL foray into 3D fighting came around the time when these other companies had several games out, several attempts at perfecting their formula etc.

I think that MK vs DC was a step in the right direction in terms of graphics and gameplay to an extent. I think that MK will undergo another evolution when the next game comes out. Maybe... Hopefully it'll be even better than what we've seen so far.

We'd both probably agree that MK as it is now, isn't good enough. Well, MK now basically has characters with interchangeable standard moves, but you seem to want to go back to that...why?

Wouldn't it be cooler to have characters that actually fight like they should? By that I mean, wouldn't it be cool if fighting as Scorpion felt completely different than fighting as Kitana or fighting as Kung Lao or Jax?

I want each character to be unique, not because I want the gameplay to be like Tekken, but because the technology is there to make these characters unique. So yeah, if the technology allows for a good wake up game, counters, parrys, unique styles for characters (so that Judo in the game is ACTUALLY like Judo in real life), etc, why wouldn't you want all of that?

MK might have been king way back when, but those days are long gone. If MK is going to be king again, then they have to take the best of all modern technological possibilities in the genre and combine them with the uniqueness of MK and what the MK series provides.

In other words, take the fluid movement, the animation, the frame damage, the complexity of modern fighters, the counters, parrys, the wake up game, the throws etc and combine them with MK's special moves to create cool (non-dial-a-combo!) combos, the MK style story, the dark backgrounds and feel, the fatalities etc...

Give me THAT game any day over simply throwing up our hands and deciding that since MK isn't as good now as it was back then, that having MK from, well, back then, would somehow be better.

THAT is the game that I'm hoping for and I'll continue to be an MK fan that hopes for that type of game experience. If you don't, and you just want the 2D glory days back, then I think you'll be waiting even longer than I will be.

The problem with your logic though Baraka is that Street Fighter II was made before Mortal Kombat and its still considered the best fighting game out their,so much so that Street Fighter IV went back to the more simple approach of SFII and ditched all the stuff that made it non accessible to people who want to just pick up and play (SFIII).

Mortal Kombat II was the pinnacle of Mortal Kombat because it balanced simplicity with strategy. It was competitive, but with out having to know 1600 different button combination's to win. The special moves were enough to differentiate the fighters from each other. It wasn't until MK3 came up with the dial a combo's and killed the game.

If they could do what Capcom did with Street Fighter 4, and take MK back to what fans loved while adding in things to bring it up to date, MK would be a success ....... but what you want is to make a new 3D fighting game with MK characters , rather than a new MK game with new play mechanics.

Mortal Kombat is what it is ....... the series was relevant back then because the game was good. The reason no one cares about Mortal Kombat now isn't because there is no "wake up" game or true parry system, its because the game become a shitty 3D fighting game.

The best 3D MK was Deception because it was the closest thing to MK II by bring back fast paced projectiles and specials.

No one feels the need to reinvent Street Fighter or King of FIghter's into 3D with all kinds of complex frame counting bullshit , and every time those games went 3D ....... no one liked them, they bombed, and went back to what made them great.

@jpetrunak...Your right,it should remain simple but competitive. Sometimes you can have too much of good things is what I think I am getting at. Sure it could use some dodging or a competitive parry system but don't go all out with new features at once in the next installment.Not using alot of new features gives the series more room to grow with each installment they put out.

An idea that just came to thought...I know there are people out there that totally loved the run feature. What if they instead brought in a "charge in attack" for each character. It might be a good idea for a quick move to come out of a turtling position or a good move for being aggressive.

Going back into a plain 2D plane fighting is devolution. It is an artificial atavism that is upheld by otherwise quality games, because their mechanics are so far balanced enough to be considered etalons in the genre.

2D fighting game mechanics are not inherently better. They are kept up because the fighting games that have the most replay value and most fluid and balanced mechanics are 2D fighters.

Forget it. I am not interested in a game where something as banal as continuous sidestepping is disallowed.

@chrome...If you are aiming at me with that response,From your argument I completely understand what your trying to say but going full 3d mechanics is not something I would like to see. I think they should work from where they left off with MK vs Dc 2.5d.

SFIV, a modern 2D fighter with 2.5D graphics. One of the best fighters ever made. Why should MK have to be 3D when games like SF, BlazBlue and KoF have proven that 2D is still the best.

A fast and frantic 2D fighters with no combos to memorize will always be better than a slow 3D fighter.

I agree with 2.5d game play too ....... im not implying that the game should be strictly 2D, but what I want to see is something like Deception or MK vs DC but with less weight. Make the characters a little faster, make their jumps bigger and higher, and make side steps more of roll out of the way than a 3D walk in a circle.

I don't want to tap U,U, or D,D to get my character moving out of the way, I just want to maybe hit a trigger button and dodge out of the way. They could even meter it like the run button was in MK3 so your not fighting people who are just constantly rolling in different directions.

The main idea is get back to the jump kicks, sweeps, uppercuts and projectiles ......

I don't want to see shit like .......

Scorpion Combo : F+HP~D*HK~HP,HP,LP,HK,F,F*HK~d,db,b (LP) ~ B,B, LP * D+HP

I'd Much rather see ...

Scorpion Combo : Jump Kick ~ Spear ~ Uppercut ~ Teleport Punch

That frame counting needing to have a masters degree to read that combo sheet and a photographic memory and a $150 joystick just to play someone online shit is for the birds.

***** And by the way topic creator , I do appreciate what you saying, im not trying to sound like a dick because I know you put a lot of though into your post . I am simply one those MK fans that feel Mortal Kombat is first and foremost about STORY, CHARACTERS and SIMPLE FUN. While I do enjoy Soul Calibur and Tekken, I feel they meet their niche in the fighting world, and Mortal Kombat doesn't really need to be the BEST FIGHTING GAME, it just needs to be the BEST MORTAL KOMBAT if that makes sense to you. When I think about my "dream" MK game, the last thing I think about really is the mechanics. I think about Storyline, characters and fatalities , and being able to play through the game with each character and seeing their endings. I don't go online to play fighting games because no matter how balanced, someone finds the god tier character/s and spams their same combo's over and over, so I'd rather see focus on simplicity which I feel actually makes for better balance.

jpetrunak wrote:

"The problem with your logic though Baraka is that Street Fighter II was made before Mortal Kombat and its still considered the best fighting game out their,so much so that Street Fighter IV went back to the more simple approach of SFII and ditched all the stuff that made it non accessible to people who want to just pick up and play (SFIII).

Mortal Kombat II was the pinnacle of Mortal Kombat because it balanced simplicity with strategy. It was competitive, but with out having to know 1600 different button combination's to win. The special moves were enough to differentiate the fighters from each other. It wasn't until MK3 came up with the dial a combo's and killed the game.

If they could do what Capcom did with Street Fighter 4, and take MK back to what fans loved while adding in things to bring it up to date, MK would be a success ....... but what you want is to make a new 3D fighting game with MK characters , rather than a new MK game with new play mechanics.

Mortal Kombat is what it is ....... the series was relevant back then because the game was good. The reason no one cares about Mortal Kombat now isn't because there is no "wake up" game or true parry system, its because the game become a shitty 3D fighting game.

The best 3D MK was Deception because it was the closest thing to MK II by bring back fast paced projectiles and specials.

No one feels the need to reinvent Street Fighter or King of FIghter's into 3D with all kinds of complex frame counting bullshit , and every time those games went 3D ....... no one liked them, they bombed, and went back to what made them great."

Actually, you and I agree on a lot more than you might think.

1) We both agree that dial-a-combos were pretty much the worst thing that happened to the MK series. They made a game that had great pick up and play ability about 2000 times harder for no particular reason.

2) The series was relevant back then because it was good. It's not as relevant now because it's simply not as good.

3) In the 2D era, special moves were enough to differentiate a character. The beauty was in the simplicity. Easy to pick up for anyone.

Here's the thing, I don't want to transplant Mortal Kombat characters into the Tekken universe. They don't mix. You seem to think that by "modernizing" MK, the series would have to immediately do away with what made it great.

I'm not saying that at all. You can make a new MK fighting game, have it be great and have it be MK all at the same time. I'm not even suggesting that your argument is a bad one, I simply just don't agree with it.

You want MK to go back to a 2D style, sort of SF4 feel, where the grahpics look up to date, the characters look great and there's even some 3D stuff thrown in, but at the core it's a 2D game.

To me, MK has moved beyond all of that. They could do it, sure. But to me, that feels like a step into the past. SF4 is what it is because they tried, as you said, to go 3D and they failed, so they went back to what works. SF4, make not mistake, is a nostaligia grab on the part of Capcom. The series was dead for almost a decade and someone took the old characters, slapped a new coat of paint on and people loved it.

I'm not saying it's a bad game. It's a great game actually, but I don't think that MK needs to follow that formula in order to be successful. Just because SF couldn't modernize, doesn't mean the MK team should just give up and do what worked 15 years ago, because I can honestly tell you that the nostalgia factor won't be there at all. MK has been around every year and for years now it hasn't been what you'd call a critical darling. Yeah, it's garnered some 8's here and there, but SF was gone a long time and it came back strong.

A move from fully 3D back to 2D will be seen by critics as A) blatant copying off of Street Fighter, which they'll assert was copy to begin with and B) it's the MK team's admission that the last 4 MK games stunk and they have to go back in time and do what worked years ago. They'll lambaste the MK team for being out of touch with what modern fighters are capable of and they'll berate for not being as good as what they'd be attempting to copy.

Now, you might not care about what critics say, but the MK team and Warner Brothers sure will. MK might've been Midway's golden goose, but I'm guessing that if the MK team doesn't hit the ground running with their next MK game, WB probably won't have much trouble pulling the franchise back, probably for a long time if not forever.

I know, that sounds like a lot of speculation. But my feeling is this: MK can be a good 3D fighter. The graphics on the last game were quite good and the fighting system is finally starting to show some good signs. Did you play MK vs DC? Sure, I hated the fact that DC characters are in it, but honestly, the game plays alot closer to the old MK games than Deception. Each character has several special moves and the combos aren't nearly as difficult to memorize.

Ideally, I'd like to see a game that's about halfway between what MK is now and the other, more modern fighting games. Yes, I think that characters should be unique. The only reason why they weren't in th 2D days was because of memory limitations and well, no one had really gone that route before.

Why not have a few characters that have a lot of throws? They don't have to be hard, maybe one button (say... Right bumper on 360) and a direction or two directions. What's hard about that? Make right bumper the universal throw button. How about some simple combos? B, B, B, B? I don't think that's too difficult. Maybe a counter button? The right trigger? Again, not too difficult.

You take a system that simple, then apply different types of move sets and throw sets etc to characters so as to form a style for that character. A character like Liu Kang or Kung Lao should be fast, but have moves that don't take off a lot of power. They have a lot of kicking combinations, maybe exciting kicks that are unique to them? They could be kind of like special moves, only they're just moves unique to them. A back flip kick, a double or triple jump kick...

You put all of these types of unique moves and combos in, but then you make them work well with their special moves, so Liu Kang does a double jump kick, and as the character is flying toward the ground, Liu Kang does his flying kick into them for even more damage. I think that this is the type of system that the Mk team is trying to move towards, but they just need to get better about making characters individual moves unique and fun to use, thus giving each character a style and feel.

Remember when Jax had his back breaker in MK2? Ah yes, the original mid air throw. Wouldn't it be cool to give him a few more of those? Some other throws like the gotcha grab and other thrings that really show off his power? To me, none of this sounds like really threatening stuff. You keep the special moves as a valuable part of characters arsenals, but you give players the tools to fight in multiple ways.

To me, that's simplicity AND depth. To me, you can have your cake and eat it too. You can have it both ways. However you want to describe it. I'm not saying that characters have to even have weapons like in Soul Calibur, they certainly don't need 10 hit combos or even multi-part throws like in Tekken, you don't need to do joypad gymnastics like in Virtua Fighter.

All you need are unique styles for characters, so that doing their regular moves is fun and not just dial-a-combo boredum. You take alot of unique moves, add in the special moves, make it so each character is balanced and has a good number of fun combos and juggles and really pour on the MK style of backgrounds, really gory fatalities, a great story and the overall MK ambiance complete with the music and the atmosphere etc.

I think the Mk team can do that and realize that vision better in 3D than in 2D. But again, to me, this would be taking the MK design forward while simply making a game with standard moves all being the same, differentiating characters by special attacks and a 2D plane would only be admitting defeat, doing something that has already been done a million times before and taking the series backwards.

I totally get your logic for wanting to go that route, I do. But personally, I think that moving backwards comes with it's own risks, while moving forward at least provides for the chance to try and perfect what they've been attempting ever since they made the move from the old 2D to 3D in the first place. Can they do it? Maybe not, but if want to play their best 2D efforts, I already have those games. I'd like to see them try and make something modern and great.

If they can do that, who knows, maybe MK will be relevant again. I do think though, that even if the MK team made the perfect 2D fighting game now, they'd get next to no recognition for it, the critics would probably hate on it for being old and outdated, and it wouldn't sell nearly as well to a generation of game buyers that have now basically grown up on 3D fighters.

This is an awesome thread.

2d isn't going to happen, and I wouldn't want it to happen. We all know where 2d can be taken--and some of the mugen games in progress seem to really be pushing its horizons, going to extremes to keep 2d fresh--but 3d is the way to go. I like the idea of having complete control of the character, not feeling that all of my motions aren't like a train stuck on the tracks. Maybe with a new MKM sort of game, pushing the limits of what's possible with a fighter/platform hybrid, but as for MK, it would feel like too much of a regression.

Fighting games are undergoing an evolution. Like film, in the beginning, a handful of people could make a decent game/movie, because everything was new. As new standards are made, however, the older successes mostly work in terms of nostalgia (or some qualities that transcend technology and more in-depth implementation). 2d fighters remind me of black and white movies--there's a limitation which at times is their charm, of doing so much with so little. But 3d has come in, given greater range of motion, really opened the door to making fights much more real if the developers would really seek doing so.

As such, I'd like to see video games take a step like movies in order to really make the fighting more interesting. Hire martial art experts, choreographers, stuntpeople (for locking down the motion capture of being slammed into walls, onto the ground, of falling), much like a movie would. Study what's out there. We're getting to the point where platform technology isn't so much of an issue. The only excuses are a lack of time/effort.


The character models are the first thing that needs to be changed. Slim them down--not every fighter needs to be Hercules or Pamela Anderson. Automatically the game will look somewhat faster, like the much commented fact in NBA dunk contests that a shorter player with the same vertical leap as a taller player looks as if he's leaping much higher (simply because his body doesn't take up as much intervening space from the ground to the apex of his jump). From there you can see how slow your fighting engine is, how unneccessary some strike motions are.

Next, figure out core moves. Not what would look cool--but the absolute basics, taking into account the character's "style" and body type. A jab. A power punch. Ditto for kicks. Note how the person's body moves. Now craft moves that complement those basics, that flow from them, seamlessly, shifting weight to give the strikes how much strength you want.

Ideally, there would be "flow" for virtually every move in a character's moveset, moves that organically arise due to body physics and the character's abilities. What I also want is for that flow to branch out. Say you're up close, doing a series of jabs, left right, left--fast, a flurry. You're using your back leg as a sort of anchor, to help push some force into those little punches. It's behind the other leg. This opens up possibilities. The defender is obviously aware of all those punches coming, but does he notice that with your leg back there it can gain some good momentum for a knee to the ribs? You have a choice of going with the flow of the punches--or suddenly breaking up the flow with a strong knee, hopefully opening up new things for you.

With non projectile, non teleporting special strike moves, I'd like to see similar possibilities of choice and branching. The special move itself as nothing more than a starter animation for a limited but effective range of moves. Johnny Cage's slide kick could start as just a rapid forward slide, depending on what you input now, a range of things could happen, including a sidestep as a sort of bluff--focus in getting a choreographed, flowing nature to this and avoid stiffness, rigidity, at all costs.

I think an important part about fighting is getting hit. Your reaction to a strike should be relative, at the very least, to a strike's power, location, follow-through, and your motion during the strike. A blow to the side of the head might make you stumble sideways. This would also potentially spell the end for button link combos, as the person you'd be striking, if your 'combos' were of powerful hits, would be liable to move out of the line of your strikes.

What I'd like to see done with this is something LIKE counters but not exactly. I mean counters after you've been hit, used only for certain situations. If you're kicked in a way that makes you turn some, you can smoothly use that momentum to do a spinning backhand--a sort of suprise chip that might buy you some space to regroup and become the aggressor. Recovery moves.

Some ground moves would be useful, particularly a button combination that would allow you to spring immediately back up (but not in all situations, like after an uppercut or roundhouse) and into a fighting-ready animation, or little shin kicks if you happen to have fallen by your opponent's feet. Complimentary, though, your opponent should have moves tailored to attack those on the ground.

I'd like more freedom of choice in the air, with more air-specific moves, grapples, throws. And for some moves which cause a character to glide in the air towards their opponent, perhaps holding the attack button down could govern the distance that move covers (so if you hold it down for the duration, the move could cover the full screen, if you release it part way it may only go a quarter, or a half, etc).

Everything should be done solely to give the player choices and freedom in fighting and defense. Most things can look cool if you put the effort in it, but first focus on making the game more flowing.

There should also be defensive moves/specials. This could be very interesting. Traditionally a block in MK anchors the fighter in place, narrowing the strategies he/she can follow immediately after. It's possible, however, for a fighter to but both hands up in defense--and charge, or sidestep or jump. Or even to do a "half block"--a quick, limited strike with one knee up or one hand up in protection (the "chip damage" would be twice as much, say, since only one hand/leg is blocking, if the opponent strikes). Give the freedom to allow players to use some specials defensively, adding animations to some specials that can be toggled in order to evade attacks or block more efficiently. Subbie could erect a thin wall of ice that could be smashed sidestepped or leaped over, but would break up the opponent's strategy and allow him to go on the offensive.


I'd like to see weapons gone. Make the basics great before doing something more advanced in a mediocre way. Maybe in a boss fight they could be useful, but not as something immediately available--you'd have to direct the fight to a certain area, put yourself at risk to attack in order to get it--sort of a fool's gold.

Much can be done to improve 3d fighting in general--to suggest it going back to 2d is understandable but also reactionary, and an admission of defeat ('oh it's not working right, let's abandon it altogether, not trying to address its problems--or its possibilities--, and cower in the corner with what we do know'). Take a trip down mugen lane if you want that--some wonderful things appear to be on the verge of being done in 2d, but I myself prefer to see what's happening on the vangard of 3d fighting, which has possibilities for some things that 2 dimensional sprite fighting can only approximate with excessive air fighting.

@MethMaker...I could agree with most of what your saying but I disagree with more or new air moves. If you ask why...some characters (Sonya and Raiden for example) have/had them kind of moves already as specials and that is one of the things of them characters that make them unique. Now if you implement that idea to the already made moves...that is another story. Like Raidens' super man type move could maybe be pressure sensitive to control the speed or height. Add more control to moves we already have. They have done it with other characters in the past (Kung Lao with his hat throw for example) so why not take it to the maximum potential with each character. I would take more control over special moves rather than air moves specifically. Such control over moves like this would almost make them air moves anyway because you could aim them up at a jumping attacker.

I just had a random thought about games of old that had a desperation attacks and wondered if it would fit in MK....hmmm. What does everyone else think on that?