Actually, I never play Tekken or DOA or Soul Calibur, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Classics suck.



You're calling my opinion mindless nonsense. That's offensive. That's like me saying, "I don't mean to be offensive, but you're a total idiot."

actually mk is the ONLY fighting game which supports both hand to hand and weapon combat.
i ended soul calibUr(notice the "U")3 using the same two or three moves,the chars are boring,etc.
Tekken is surely bettger gameplay wise,but also tekken 4 and 5 feels"rushed" and the final boss Jinpachi is cheap as hell.
Virtua Fighter is also a good solid fighting game with better gameplay but with slow mechanics.sorry sometimes VF5 feels like a total boredom to me.
mk have hs cons,but is quick,easy to pick up for everyone,pretty much realistical event though poorly developed(wrestling without multiple graplle moves?judo with only two throws?mhua thai with only one type f knee attak?Nightwolf's vale tudo never hits wit low blows or headbutt?wtf?) they seems funny.
it's just a matter of "hate or love MK the way it is" and trust me the "love him" side is greater than "hate him",so kill every character(except for Mokap) is a hara-kiri move for Midway.

Thanks Eagleclaw, and I agree with what you're saying 110% about "if it was part of their vision, the MK team would've done it by now" regarding the fighting system, animation etc. I knew that those aspects would be brought up by other people as well. I know that it's pointless to hope for, but this ever so tiny part of me still holds out hope that the MK team will wake up one day and realize that their fans want a fun, deep fighting experience and not just gimmicks and window dressing wrapped up in nostalgia.
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Wow Ninjakata, I never even thought about some of your ideas, but they're spot on! Exploding bosses? Why not have a more dramatic ending where the bad guy gets it, but in a way that's specific to the character that kills him?

Going off of that idea, why not make it so that endings are not "what if" endings? I don't want to see those anymore at all. What purpose do they serve other than to confuse the player going into the next game as to what actually happened in the previous game?

Make a story mode where some characters lose, some die in their matches, maybe a character gets abducted, maybe a character is transported someplace away from the tournament, there are a million possibilities.

I also strongly agree with you about the lack of hidden content. MK Gold was the last game that I played where it really felt like you could discover things. Now you have a krypt for characters that will eventually go on the select screen and a bunch of other things that are basically labeled unlockables.

No thanks. I'd be fine with unlocking characters through storylines where it makes sense, or awakening a character or summoning a character at some point by doing something in the story. I'd also be a fan of changing the cosumes by pressing start and a button. But give me some things to search out within the fighting game, not just saving up koins to get a character.
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As for the whole debate that Thrawn, LastFighter, Edenian Ninja and Xiahoudun are having regarding characters returning, I'd have to side with Xiahoudun for the most part.

Yes, I believe that a certain number of past characters should return, maybe around four or five from the start, with two or three being hidden unlockables. You can bring back characters in following iterations as it makes sense, but why up the number of classic characters just for the sake of upping it?

I look at it more from a story standpoint. If you can make a compelling story for a character, and it fits in with what the new game is doing story-wise, than fine, bring them back. But there are characters that, while "classic" in terms of fan support and length of time being in the series, they'll always be support characters, henchmen etc whose stories have already played out over multiple games.

Johnny Cage, Kano, Ermac, Goro, Reptile, Jax, Mileena, Baraka, Kintaro, Smoke, Sheeva, Jade, Rain, Jarek, Bo Rai Cho, Frost, Hsu Hao, Kobra, Kira and Dairou are all support characters to me.

They all seem to be padding the side of good or evil with numbers and their stories are either played out or exist only to serve other characters.

I agree with Thrawn on one aspect though, the MK:DA to MK:D characters have been relatively week and unappealing. If the MK team can manage to make some good new characters, perhaps the characters from the first two games wouldn't be considered so sacred and we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

Yes, the Tekkens and DOAs out there don't kill off large parts of their roster, but those series also have the advantage of having good fighting systems, so players don't require a large amount of change to the games.

Unfortunately, those series also change at a glacial pace and you can tell that most reviewers are starting to see the formulas of Soul Calibur, DOA, Tekken and VF as becoming a bit stale.

MK got a bit stale after MK4 and they gave the series a reboot with MK:DA. Now, after four games, I think they've run this fighting engine and it's variations, the characters and plotlines into the ground.

MK:DA had 13 returning characters and 10 new characters. I think that a new game with 4 returning characters on the select screen and 14-16 new characters plus 4 hidden returning characters, along with a refined fighting system and a whole new story would do this series some good and hopefully keep things fresh.

I always hear the refrain "if you don't like MK the way it is and you want to make dratic changes than you must not like MK so go play something else." I could easily answer that with "If you want to see MK with all familiar characters, unchanged, than go play an older MK game. You have plenty of choices in that regard."

I've been a diehard MK fan since the very beginning, I had over 2,000 posts on KingdomMK before it went under and I have almost 2,000 posts on this site dating back to when it was MK5.org. Many of those posts are an obscene length (not unlike this post lol).

So I don't buy the idea that my wanting MK to modernize its fighting mechanics the way that Sub Zero 7th said, or wanting something better the way Eagle Claw said, or wanting a fresh roster with fresh stories and newer, better ideas the way Xiahoudun said makes me any less of an MK fan than the people that seemingly want this series to stagnate and remain in the past.

I really like the past MK games, faults included. MK4 is paper thin in terms of depth when compared to VF2 even, a game that came out well before MK4, yet I just played MK Gold yesterday.

You can have the nostalgia characters if it makes sense to put them in the game. You can have new characters if they're well made and provide interesting new stories and add depth to the series as a whole, but there has to be a balance. Maybe I fall somewhere in between what Thrawn and Xiahoudun are saying, but the series has to move forward and living in the past, because "that's how it's always been done" makes no sense to me whatsoever.

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That brings me to Jironobou's comments. Just because there have always been minigames and realms doesn't mean they've ever been a good thing in my estimation.

While the minigames tend to be well made (though I'd probably debate that when referring to Motor Kombat), what point do they serve? Does anyone buy a first person shooter to play a pin the tail on the donkey minigame? Why would I buy a fighting game and have any desire to play test your might before or DURING a fight?

As for the realms, I'm not saying that they should be removed from the story, but they should be disregarded in terms of story focus for the time being. I liked the first MK story where there was a mysterious fighting tournament. Bring back the tournament and focus the story on Earth again. Sure, characters can come from other realms, but don't pour over the details of Orderrealm or Edenia or Outworld etc. They were either never interesting to begin with or they're simply played out ideas.

On a side note, there is no mention of any other realms in MK1. There are no minigames in MK2, MK3 (no, I don't count Pong and Galaxian) or MK4. So I wouldn't say that these concepts rank up there with Sub Zero, uppercuts and fatalities in terms of tradition.

Baraka407, I still disagree with the idea that we need a new roster of characters. You stated above that 14-16 characters should be new, while about 8 should be returning. Without a doubt you have the ratios reversed. On top of that I still feel that the mk team should invest the time and effort into creating 3-4 new characters and making them very good and original.

I stated above and you I thought correctly reiterated that the new characters from mkda and mkd were pretty craptacular as a whole. One of my main issues with loading the roster with new characters just to fill some unofficial requirement of new characters is for the most part the mk team hasn't proven to me in the last eight years that they can create a lot of really good characters at one time.

Take some of the mkda characters as an example.

1. Kenshi. Unique look. An archetypal martial arts character. The blind swordsman. After that i didn't feel he was that great. Arrogant swordsman (think Misturugi SC), gets tricked by Shang Tsung into letting him steal his ancestors souls. Now he has to avenge them. Okay. Maybe. But then all of his special moves are stolen from Ermac. Not very original. I like Ermac better. Especially his redesign. So essentially a re skinned Ermac but not as cool.

2. Bo Rai Cho. Yet another archetypal character. The drunken master. Okay. I like archetypes. Oh no! He burps, farts, and pukes. In mkd he commits the worst atrocity in all of mk history by lighting his fart on fire in a fatality. He is the Jar Jar Binks of mk. Death to Bo Rai Cho.

3. Hsu Hao. Nuff said.

4. Nitara. Vampire, spitting blood, wants to free her realm blah blah blah. With a little retooling you basically get a vampiric version of the Edenians.I like the edenians better. They are more fun to use. She looked cool though.

5. Mavado. He had potential but I feel was set up wrong. He looked cool and had some cool special moves. Red Dragon clan though. I don't know. It seem to me that he could have worked better as a Black Dragon member. The first cool one since Kabal mk3. He also had Kabal's hook swords. So instead of giving him his own weapon we get a different version of Kabal. Cmon. Every mk fan associates the hook swords with Kabal who was a fan favorite since mk3. Red Dragon instead of Black Dragon.

6. Lei Mei. Female Liu Kang. The most bland female character in the mk series. I mean she literally is Liu Kang with a little Sonya element thrown in. Peacful villager (peaceful monk) , villagers get captured/enslaved, Lie Mei has to fight in a tournament to win their freedom (Sonya). She has Tanya's fireball animation too I believe. Then the ultimate insult. In a mk game with weapon combat she has sais. No Mileena. But this bland character has Mileena's signature weapon. Why didn't they just give me Mileena?

Okay that is six new characters that were crappy to average just in one game. Copies or ripoffs of other characters. Kabal, Ermac, Mileena.
You suggested 14-16. That is a fourth of what you suggested. Do you really think the mk team can do it? I didn't even touch mkd's lame characters. Dairou, Darius, Kobra, Shujinnko, Hotaru. That is five right there.

I understand where you are coming from Baraka407. We just disagree here. I would rather old characters come back and get improved and fleshed out than to have 8 new characters that I don't end up liking and then having to wait 2 years to hope they can come up with some good ones and hope my favorite characters return.

One more point. When we say advance the stories or develop the characters, keep in mind not much character development gets done in each game. When you think about it., we actually only get a bio per character and that is all the story and character progression we get for 2 years at a time. 99% of the endings end up being "what if" scenarios.

I personally prefer characters that I already know, love, and enjoy using to come back so I can get a little more story than another Dairou, Kobra, Darius, Lei Mei, or Hsu Hao.

That is largely how I look at this. I really don't care as much what they do with the gameplay and modes, as much as I care about the roster.

I understand where you are coming from, but I fundamentally disagree with all due respect. I enjoyed reading your posts and viewpoints though.

Loin-clothes. Ok, not all loin-clothes, but MK has abused them; over half the characters in Armageddon had loin-clothes, in either one or both of their costumes.

No power-ups. As stated by the OP, they're really an unfair advantage... especially the rage mode in MK vs. DC.

No side-games, such as racing and chess, etc. The time, effort, and game-space would be better applied to improving the overall game.

Don't kill off all the characters, how about 1/2 or 3/4 of them? There are many great, established characters. I applaud MK for wanting to be edgy enough to start from scratch, but the new characters will be hit and miss and it would be beneficial for them to keep some favorites to fall back on.

No character should have less than 3 special moves.

I think that's it, at least for now.

no crossover
no t rating
no lame fatalities

Death traps: The stage fatalities were alot better. They made the fights too short

Kreate a fatality: That was way too annoying and always the same finishing moves over and over.

Parries: What an horrible idea Midway put in MKA. It sucked. The cpu abused too much with that.

No too many characters: This prevent a good work for an MK game.

No more kata endings: Do I have to explain?

No new useless characters such as Kobra for example.

No more challenge combos

No brutalities such as the ones we had in MKT.

No more fighting styles again.

No more air Kombat. It looked like an anti-gravity system.

Not the same fatalities over and over such like Kitana's fan fatality.

No more more characters without new special moves. (Liu Kang and Mileena got the same special moves over and over since MK2)

No more konquest mode such like MK VS DC.

The alternate color of both primay and alternate costumes should be selectable.

Lego mortal kombat. lol

Thrawn, I get what you're saying, and all of your points are well argued, without a doubt. If you don't read any of the rest of this post (and I wouldn't really blame you because I'm horribly long winded lol), than at least read this:

If you keep churning out games where you add three or four new characters and the rest of the roster never changes, the game gets stale.

This is where I'm coming from: Look at Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur or Virtua Fighter. Regardless of what you might think of those games, I really liked them for a long time. The first Soul Calibur, DOA3 and Virtua Fighter 2 in particular. All of those series do exactly what you want for MK. They add a few characters and leave the rest of the roster as is, with minor improvements to their move sets.

I bought Soul Calibur 4, Virtua Fighter 5 and DOA 4 on 360. I'm telling you, I was bored of all three of those games within the first five days of playing them.

Why?

Because after so many games, I just got tired of using the same characters over and over. I always found myself gravitating towards the new characters simply to try something different and even that didn't hold my interest. I'd go back and use Cervantes or Hayabusa or Kage (my mainstays from those games) and they simply weren't fun to use anymore. I had used them for years now, and it was simply boring trying to suck some new fun out of characters that I had been using for well over a decade in some cases.

Why would you want that for MK?

Now, moving on to the rest of my horribly long post:

As far as the idea that the new characters are rip offs, I mean, look at the old characters:

Liu Kang: Obviously a bruce lee rip off. I mean, he even had the Enter the Dragon look completely ripped off from Bruce.

Rayden: Watch Big Trouble in Little China. I think you'll find some similarities with one of the characters.

Johnny Cage: Enter the Dragon, he was blatantly taken from the character "Roper."

Shang Tsung: Lo Pan from Big Trouble in Little China crossed with Han from Enter the Dragon.

Heck, the entire plot from MK1 is lifted almost directly from Enter the Dragon. A fighting tournament held on a secret island where there's more at work than meets the eye?

I know, the characters were new to MK, but I don't think that a large number of them are as sacred to the series as you might think.

I love MK1 and MK2, and there were alot of original character ideas, but MK3? With the exception of Kabal, I didn't like any of the characters introduced to the series in that game.

But if we're talking specifically about MK1 and MK2, I'd say hold on to Scorpion in Sub Zero (though give them relatively new looks and definitely give them new storylines to work with). I'd keep Rayden, maybe Kung Lao, but who else here is sacred enough to the point where they HAVE to be in the next MK game?

Maybe we're just looking at two different things, but I don't simply want to have a character in the game for familiarity's sake. If a character is in the game, they should be in there for a good reason. A good individual story that ties into, and thus improves the larger story as a whole. They should also have a myriad of new moves to keep them fresh and fun to use.

This story issue though, has been my problem with MK games for a long time and you hit the nail right on the head: The "what if" endings. Characters should have story progression, a beginning, a middle and and end for each game, and while I'm a fan of cliffhangers, for the most part you should know what's going on with a large part of the characters by the end of their stories.

Players shouldn't have to guess at which "what if" endings came true in the last game when playing a new game.

As far as stories go, and you mentioned stories in your criticism of Li Mei, Mavado etc, so I'm assuming that's somewhat important to you, well, check these out:

Johnny Cage: They guy has been making a movie based on MK for several endings. He died, then he came back somehow. Lame.

Liu Kang: Won the first MK tournament, kinda fell in love with Kitana, died and came back a zombie. Why a zombie? Who knows. Cage died, but he came back normal. Yeah, that's not good storytelling.

Kano vs Sonya/Jax: They've been going back and forth in this whole "trying to escape, trying to kill each other" storyline since forever. It's stale, it's old, there's nothing else that can be done here. Kano's nothing more than a henchmen for whoever the big bad boss is anyways.

Baraka: Perennial henchmen. Kinda sort of has this storyline with Mileena, but they always seem to simply double cross one another. Lame.


Now, I don't know if it's time constraints or a complete lack of creativity in some aspects, but I think that the MK team comes close to getting some of the new characters right.

Kenshi: A decent look and while he stole one of Ermac's moves, I dig his blind swordsmen storyline, even if the "what if" ending is dumb.

Mavado: Awesome look, decent story, I wasn't a huge fan of his special moves. I thought that they could've used the grappling hooks alot more than they did. I also agree that they never should've given him Kabal's hook swords.

Drahmin: I like that he's being used by both Quan Chi and Shang Tsung even if he's kind of a lacky. Though unfortunate, I think that his look and origin were pretty different. I was also really curious to see what his altered form turned out to be when he and Quan Chi fell into the inner sanctum chamber.

Hotaru: A cool look, and I dug the idea that he was a zealot who thought that he was doing good, but was serving an evil master. His special moves were obviously ripped from Liu Kang and Sub Zero though, which again looked like laziness on behalf of the MK team. His story was obviously a "what if" that wouldn't come true though, so his ending is rather pointless. Again, I really hate the what if endings.

Havik: Just an awesome look. Unfortunately, his story and special moves are awful. He's one of the main reasons why I think the MK team should do away with the whole "realms" thing and just stick with Earth. Sure, maybe a battle with Heaven and Hell, and Earth's in the crossfire could be awesome, but the whole chaosrealm idea was terrible and terribly executed. Still, Havik had a TON of potential.

So, I partially agree with you on the new characters, but as flawed as you seem to think they are, I can find the bright spots in many of them. I can also find just as many flaws in the old characters as well. As good as the old characters are, I still see a good amount of potential in the new characters.

I just think it's a matter of putting all of the pieces together properly. Having an interesting story, coupled with a cool look, new and fun to do moves and ideas that aren't blatantly ripped from other characters would be ideal.

Can the MK team do that? Who knows. But I'd rather hope that they can, as opposed to simply playing the same characters over and over again. Personally, I don't understand how you find the prospect of playing the same old charcters over and over again exciting.

Sure, there are some characters that are staples to the franchise, and I'd have no problem bringing back some other old characters in following sequels if it made sense (I'd never advocate the idea of permanently removing old characters from the series as a whole after all), but saying that you only want old characters because the new characters aren't good is kinda like only eating Reeces peanut butter cups because the other candy you've tried has been gross. Sure, the cups are kind of blah now after eating them for years, but rather than keep trying new candy to find something else that you like, you'd rather just stick with what you know.

I think that's where we differ.

Personally, I think that the MK team would be best served trying to keep everything new and fresh, so that it doesn't become those other fighting games that I mentioned before. Four to six old characters, maybe even a few more as hidden characters, and a large amount of new characters would be ideal for me. The new characters might not all be winners, but you never know.

If they made a game with primarily old characters, I know I'd get bored within a week or two. That much, I know, and I think that I have pretty good evidence from the fighting games that adhere to that trend to go on. Either way, I respect your opinion and I'd be curious to here what you have to say, so by all means feel free to let me know your thoughts.

I agree with everything you said....except the Realms thing.


I think other than Earthrealm....Outworld, Netherrealm, and Edenia should have to stay. Just my opinion though.

Hmmm...let me see here Baraka407. There is a lot to respond to. Really good stuff.

First off Big Trouble in Little China is one of my 3 all time favorite movies. Period bar none. Huge John Carpenter fan. Kurt Russel and John Carpenter=Awesome. I bought the dvd THE DAY it came out. I completely agree that they directly took Raiden from the lightning guy in that movie. MK has always been about old Chinese and kung fu archetypes.

In early interviews they said that the cyber ninjas Sektor and Cyrax were directly inspired by Predator and Boba Fett. I don't have a problem with this per se.

Other than his look Kenshi had nothing original. I will agree with you that Havok had a cool look. I disagree with you however that his story was uninteresting. He was one of the only new characters I found to be intriguing even though I never used him myself. I like the idea of him joining Kabal's new black dragon to spread chaos. Post Dark Knight it reminds me of the Joker.

I really like the characters that I like and I don't get tired of using them. It isn't any deeper than that. I do like new characters. Let me make that clear. I am not against them. I like the ones we already have though and I would like 3-4 really good ones instead of 5 that are bland and have reused special moves or story angles.

For all the new characters you really end up with clones or cookie cutter versions of old characters. I like Soul Calibur. But I primarily use the old characters because I like their movesets and stories better. Give me a new character I like and I will use that one. The only new characters I use and liked from mkda and mkd were Kira (story, moves, look), Frost (moves, look) Sareena (everthing), Havik (story, look), Mavado (look, moves). 5 out of two games .

Imagine if you took all the new characters from mkda and mkd and put them in a game all by themselves without any of the old mk characters from mk1-4. None of them. Would you like that roster? That seems to me to be what you would get if you scrapped the old characters.

I understand your view. I just think that to keep the game interesting, you tweak the gameplay, add new modes, add new story elements, fatalities, and such. It doesn't require a brand new cast to do that.

Your point about some of the older character's stories I agree with. Cage and LIu Kang are 2 characters who have lame stories. I personally hate Liu Kang more than any other character in mk history.

However you say henchmen like it is a bad thing. You have to have enforcers and low level thugs. Now cmon, few henchmen have ever been cooler looking than Baraka.

As far as getting bored in a week or two I understand that too. I was tired of mka rather quickly and it had all of my favorite characters. It wasn't the roster that did it though. It was the gameplay, the lack of modes (No tournament mode?), no canon endings, no bios, no original fatalities. The kreate a fighter was cool but seriously needed to be fixed.

Similar thing with mk vs dc. Fun to play, lacking in modes and content. I don't get tired of using characters I like, but even then I can get tired of a game that lacks variety in the mode and content department. I need characters I like though or I'm not playing it at all.

I get where you are coming from though. I think that the best solution to this is somewhere in the middle probably, but I prefer less new characters and more old returning vets.

Im sorry but I loved Kenshi, he was the best new character IMO.

Nothing to be sorry about WingsOfRedemption. I didn't like him too much. I think that he needs to lose he telekinesis. That belongs to Ermac. Give him a new moveset and I think he would be fine.

OK THRAWN! What you said is AMAZING and if you ever come to LA, lunch is totally on me. I TOTALLY agree with everything you have to say and I'm so glad someone else thinks this way.

It is NECESSARY that we keep the classic characters that made the series iconic. We need those memorable characters that first appeared in the first 3 games.

I mean, who would play a game with this roster?

Scorpion and Sub Zero (they're obviously in)
Hotaru
Hsu Hao
Kobra
Darrius
Nitara
Jarek
Kai
and 10 new characters!

-_- pretty lame if you ask me right?

I think that we should keep the classics like Sonya, Reptile, Mileena, Kitana, Ermac, Cyrax, Kung Lao, Liu Kang, Raiden, Scorpion, Sub Zero, Shang Tsung, Shao Kahn, Noob Saibot, Baraka etc etc. They need to polish these characters up because they all have potential as it is. I always said this and I'll say this again, there are a lot of classic characters in Mortal Kombat who never really got a spot light (Like Ermac, Sektor, Jade, Rain etc) and they should get their chance to shine as well.

Mortal Kombat has reached the point where we have TOO MANY characters as it is and we have A WHOLE bunch of characters that the team can choose from that can make a great game.

I don't think its necessary to add new characters just for the sake of having new characters. You want new characters? Go play MK: Armageddon and kreate your fighter haha..

The only *NEW* character that I can think of that would fit in great to the MK Storyline would be a Shadow Priest. Whenever they would add new characters to the series, it would just be a ripoff of a classic character and that would piss me off because a lame new character would take the place of a character that was already in the series.

Jarek=Kano
Mavado=Kabal
Li Mei=Mileena (when I saw Li Mei with those Sai's, I was like, "oh heck no!"
Kenshi=Ermac (I do like Kenshi though =X)
Kira in MKD=It could have been Sonya
Darrius in MKD= Just another Jax
Kobra= I was thinking Johnny Cage



But yea, Thrawn, I really do agree with you and I wish more people would see why the classic characters are so important. Yea, some may argue that the storylines get vague and boring..but chararacters can always evolve and change for the better. Its all in the hands of whoever is writing the story. The classic characters just need to be touched-up and polished with cool costumes, cool moves and a cool twist in their storylines.

Baraka407, I respect your opinions, especially for the fact that you have VERY valid points that you bring up and I totally agree with some one the points you bring up too..but honestly, when someone picks up a Mortal Kombat game, its pretty much EXPECTED that you see Scorpion, Raiden and the characters that bring back memories. The MK team has plenty of characters to choose from and those characters can create amazing storylines. By letting all those characters go, it can really ruin Mortal Kombat.

After all, Mortal Kombat is my favorite because of all those old characters.

Good read in here. Let's see what I don't want at this time.

1. A roster much more heavy than MkvsDc Universe

I really don't think it's necessary. 20-25 should pretty much be the mainstay for a game or so going forward. What Mortal Kombat is sorely lacking at this point is some foundation, and stability in the way that these things are set up.

So while I absolutely appreciate the way they like to switch things up every three or so games, I think that a necessity is that a continuous theme be carried out for at least that round of games. Gives a sense of inclusiveness to the hard core fan, and lets the casual fan understand that they are in for a ride once they pop any game in that sequence open. Also, if those very casual fans are only interested for one game, the segue(gateway) to purchasing other games from that particular portion in the series becomes alot more apparent.

EX: (got the second one in the series, but is captivated enough to go back an d buy the previous game to figure out what the hell is going on)

I figure that if they're gonna release three or so games on these current consoles that those games should at least carry a continuation as far as the characters involved are concerned. Hopefully making a statement that the story, and the characters involved in that current plot are being meticulously paid attention to.

2. No minigames or gameplay interruptions unless they are painfully relevant

Again, this is ground work. If you're gonna engage people in what these current games are about, you have to make those characters and the events that happen to those characters relevant to the player. Well, what better way to do that besides making every-single-portion of the game relevant to what's going on with the overall plot?

If a minigame is in there, they see what we want. We want these things to play to the central theme of a given character, or build a KAK, or really just give me something that is important to another important aspect of the game itself.

So no more frivolous min-games, side modes, or gameplay interruptions. I heard Boon say in a recent interview that some fans will have a multitude of good ideas, and that some of those ideas cannot exist in the same game.

Well......

I'm cool with that, because there are some things that as a fan, I just will not understand. But, the thing to consider in that case is placement. The general rule that I think they did consider is that if it interrupts gameplay too much, then that attribute of gameplay needs to be axed. I feel like if they continue this way of thinking then they may be on the right track still. All they might want fans to do, is simply articulate better. Cool, to say the least.

3. No more wasted potential

This is a big one, because Mortal Kombat is infamous for introducing some great concept, but never completing the processes it takes to implement these things properly down the line somewhere. I'm saying that if they come up with something like KAFatality, and it's not done correctly the first time (especially if they know that it wasn't), then the best thing to do is to give it back at more than full force when the time and technology is right to give it back to us.

Not "just a follow up game that shows it to us in a similar light, but at a time that lets us know that "Yea, we know it wasn't right that first time, but now we can do it how we intended to have it in the first place....see the difference?"

I feel like that's one of the magnificent things about following a franchise for as long as some of us actually have followed some of these games. It's being able to identify with certain things that makes a new game more enjoyable, just based on the merit that they see and heard a battle cry from a fan some time ago. It establishes a give and take between fan and developer that goes largely unspoken.

How many of us here remember how Reptile became a force in the MK universe? It's because yea, they redid him in the following game, but it was appropriate based on the way technology and everything progressed between MK1 and MK2. Then, MK3 really got into it with all it's little secrets and codes, and so on.

- They also need to stop wasting potential on the front of the characters. I am so sick of seeing a good character concept and theme squandered based on the mere fact that the one character was "just supposed to be funny"....or angry....or "in the middle somewhere".

So what I'd like to see them do going forward, is reiterate mock-ups of great character portrayals of some of our modern day characters in popular culture again. Look at alot of these best sellers, and most watched shows and things, and give us characters that specifically embody some of the things that makes these current day characters great.

Alot of these sitcoms and movies are taking some hues from Mortal Kombat in a many different types of ways anyway.....

I'm just saying.....take it back a little bit without being overly aggressive and transparent about it. Take these references for instance:


a. Scorpion = Michael Myers (Rob Zombie....almost) Means you can understand why he's doing what he's doing, but the fact of his method still puts him in that category.

b. Sub-Zero = Batman (latest two movies) // Ironman // The Incredible Hulk. albeit with Japanese influence attached.

c. Kitana = Angelina Jolie // Kate Beckinsale (the acting in their latest movies, not necessarily the looks)

d. Raiden = Dexter Morgan

e. Johnny Cage = Chris Evans (the acting, not necessarily the looks)

f. Smoke = A Ghost. As terrifying as they come.

g. Sektor = Brainiac (almost) Less verbal, more mysterious, and alot more methodical.

h. Kai = Avatar Last Airbender (manipulate his purpose to fit the character) "The One" complex, but indifferent almost to a fault of implosiveness.

i. Baraka = MKvsDC (manufactured, little more intelligent, but it was about perfect in that game)

j. Evil Guys & Boss Characters = Redefine based on current day terrors and phobias. I swear they need to take a survey or something.

- Storyline potential is being squandered as well. Inconclusiveness needs to hit the brakes in Mortal Kombat. We need to be able to rely on a constant stream of facts and events.

Potential for some of these side games is wasted eveytime another unwarranted cliff hanger is plugged in somewhere.

: Also, failure to comply with player demand happens here within the form of the Konquest modes. There's a particular basic formula that people are looking for from these things. Maximize player control through options, privileges, and gradual rewards. Minimize "doing things for me" while staying within the realm of reason.

"Don't only give me shit, let me do most of the work."

Let me find it, improve it, use. But make sure you let me learn, or teach me how to use it, and then leave me the hell alone about it (LOL). Seriously though, let me find it, use it, hold on to it. Let me adjust it, manipulate it, sell it, or throw it away....ect.

This is one big thing that really irritated me about any of the past Konquest Modes. It's that they either wouldn't or couldn't let me control the things that made my character a kind of legitimate force on my personal roster of playable characters. This is why I'd love to be able to take a KAK go through a Konquest Mode.

- Online experience potential. Gimme the whole thing now. Stop trapping me in those little basic-basic rooms. Stop trapping me with crazy loading times, that shit is old news even if it's still a very real problem. It's something people expect to be superseded with new technology.
It's like....alot of loading time is like admitting that we're gonna have to deal with a bitter beer face for that game. "ain't that old?"

4. Crossovers

Alright, I'll still take MKvsSF....but that's about it.

lol

That's all for now.

No less than 18 characters,

No pallette swaps being called alt costumes,

No Kata endings,

No rubbish minigames... unless they are good like the tetris like thing in Deception,

I can't think of anything else I don't want.

hoorah!

Thrawn: You might be right there, I think the compromise comes somewhere in the middle between what you would want and what I would want.

I certainly didn't mean to sound as though I was defending the MK4 to MK:A characters in terms of THAT being what I wanted in the next MK game. I mean, I get what we're arguing here:

You're saying that a game full of new characters would lead to having a weak roster, citing the negatives of the newer characters as examples.

I was countering that by saying that I would HOPE that the MK team could create some new "classic" characters by bucking their recent trend of creating characters that aren't up to the standards set by MK1 and MK2. I was also trying to cite some examples of characters that had potential among the more recent characters.

I only bring this up because I didn't want you to think that I WANTED what EdenianNinja described which was basically Scorpion and Sub Zero followed by a weak cast.

No, not at all. If the MK team can't do a good job in creating new characters, then yeah, I'd be much more in favor of your mode of thinking as far as the ratio of old to new characters.

The only thing that keeps me from going that route however is that in spite of the recent evidence that the MK team has lost their touch when it comes to making cool characters, I still want new characters. I want to see weapons that I've never seen and moves that I've never seen and styles that I've never seen.

MK2 had 5 returning characters to 7 new characters (yeah, I'm counting Reptile and Shang Tsung as new because Shang Tsung looked completely different and was previously unusable and Reptile had completely new moves and was previously unusable) and it was a fantastic game that improved on the original in every conceivable way.

It's that small fact that gives me hope that the MK team could do a new MK game with 4 to 6 returning characters, 3 to 4 hidden returning characters and the rest would be new. Sure, you might get a Hsu Hao or a Stryker in there, but you might also get a Kitana or a Quan Chi or some other staple of the series.

I know, the MK team's track record as of late makes the possibility for a good game with tons of new characters somewhat remote, but I'd take that over simply rehashing old characters, adding a new special move or two on them and throwing them out there for the same reason they've been fighting for the last few games.

As far as henchmen, I know that they have their place, but tell me, do the henchmen ever win? I mean, have you ever seen a movie where the best friend of the main character is the winner? I dunno, to me, that always made the support characters kind of pointless because all they ever did was either fight one another or get killed by the bigger bad or the main good guy or whatever.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Baraka fan, but I was always hoping that he would break off and develop his own deep storyline. Instead, he was simply a pawn being used.

Last thing, and this is just my preference, but I personally get alot more excited about seeing new characters than the returning ones. To me it's kinda like:

"Oh cool, Reptile's back." versus "Oh wow, who's that? I wonder what their name is, what their story is, what moves they'll be able to do!?" Granted, once I have the game in my hand, there is usually a bit of a let down with the newer characters recently, so I see where your skepticism comes in. I definitely understand it, but my feeling is, like I said, you never know, you might like some new characters, even if recent history leads you (and me to an extent) to be a bit pessimistic.

EdenianNinja: I see what you're saying and I certainly agree with you somewhat. You also have some very valid points, especially regarding the classic characters. If I had the choice between returning characters like Kung Lao or returning characters like Nitara, I'd obviously choose Kung Lao. I want to be clear on that.

But my point is that even though the newer characters have been underwhelming compared to the classic characters, you never know, you have to inject some new blood into the roster and you never know, some of that new blood (hopefully alot of it) might be good.

I was just pointing out to Thrawn when I was listing characters like Drahmin and what not that they have potential and that they weren't as bad to me as Thrawn thought they were. Plus, you have to take into account that these new characters, well, most of them have one or two games under their belts. Maybe give them some time?

Most people I knew hated Kitana when they first played MK2. Same goes for Kung Lao. But they've been in several games now, they've had special moves added to their arsonal and their storylines have been fleshed out more.

I'd also probably disagree with you on your definition of "classic" though. I would probably go you one better and say that MK1 and MK2 had the classic characters. Not MK3. Sorry, but to me, MK3, not UMK3 or Trilogy, but just MK3, had the weakest roster of ANY MK game.

But yeah, when you think of MK, you think of Scorpion, Sub Zero, Rayden, etc. So I certainly wasn't advocating scrapping the whole roster and just sticking with Scorpion and Sub Zero. Would I mind it? No, not really if the new characters were good. Of course, adding THAT MANY new characters would likely increase the chances of having more than a few crappy characters unfortunately.

But my feeling is that if a character is going to be in the game, they should be in there for a reason, not just because they are a beloved character. I like Kung Lao, but that doesn't mean that he has to be in every MK game from now until the series ends or the games won't be as fun for me.

I think that's where you and I differ. You seem to only want the classic characters. Am I wrong? I mean, would you literally want MK2, realized in 3D? Maybe add Sonya, Kano, Noob, Shao Khan and Jade as playable characters? Don't get me wrong, that would a sick bonus disc or something. But would you want that to be the next MK game?

Me personally? That wouldn't excite me one bit. It's been done before.

That's how I feel about alot of characters in the MK series. No, you don't have to get rid of them for all time, but give alot of them an extended break, especially if they have no story to develop for the new plot (whatever it'll be).

Sonya, Kano, Liu Kang, Johnny Cage, Reptile, Kitana, Jax, Mileena and Baraka are all in the "been there, done that" file for me. Their stories are played out and now it seems like they're mostly in games simply for fan service.

I'd like to see MK go with something like this:

Scorpion
Sub Zero
Rayden

Those are the classics to me. The definitive symbolic characters for MK.

Kung Lao

Add in other character like Kung Lao if his story works in with the new plot, which I don't think would be too difficult.

Sareena
Mavado
Ashrah

Then you add a few other newer characters that at least have potential to be more.

Kai
Shang Tsung

Because ever MK game should have hidden characters. Why they did away with this in MK;DA and MK:D I'll never understand.

Take those 9, add 13 new characters and to me, that's a solid roster.

I dunno, maybe you just like the familiarity of playing with characters you already know you're going to like, but for me, I can't simply play the same characters over and over game after game. I need new characters to try out and master. I need a healthy balance of familiarity with something new.

I think that you share Thrawn's skepticism on the MK team's ability to make good new characters, and I respect that, really I do. I'm always kind of worried about that as well in fact.

I'm in full agreement about not wanting palette swaps, moves lifted directly from older characters (my jaw also dropped when the MK team gave Li Mei Mileena's sais!) etc.

I want want alot of new characters, but I also want the MK team to get the new characters RIGHT. That's not such a bad thing, is it?

I agree with alot of what you're saying Predator and I know exactly what you're talking about.

As far as the potential is concerned... It always seems like lately, they take an idea that's cool in theory, but then when they go to execute it, the idea never seems to be fully realized or simply not as cool as you thought it would be when you first heard about it.

I can't think of a single "add-on" to the fighting that they've done that I've wound up enjoying over time.

Aggressor Meter: The first add on to the fighting, to me it basically allowed the computer to be cheap. I never used it in the arcades because it left you wide open to get hit.

Throwing objects: What was the point? Other than to take off a rediculously large part of someone's healthy. Plus, in MK4 days, it just looked bad. On a side note, why does throwing a severed head talk off the same amount as throwing a rock? Wouldn't the rock hurt just a little more? OK, now I'm nitpicking.

Weapons: This one is huge for me. They decide to add weapons in MK4. You have to do some stupid button combination just to get your character to bring it out, and then the move list is almost nonexistent. Sure, they refined the weapons system in MK:DA, but again, not a ton of variety.

How about a whip sword? A ball and chain? A trifold staff? Heck, make up weapons. Maybe a guy carries a lantern on a chain and he uses both the chain and the lantern as weapons. I dunno.

How about actually GIVING Scorpion that flaming sword from the promos? Maybe he has a move where he raises the sword up and it catches fire. Then he has a few special moves with it, like guiding a flame towards his opponent, a ball of flame that dissolves incoming projectiles etc etc.

What we got with weapons, to me at least, was very generic. I mean, look at Cage's moves with the nunchucks versus, say, Maxi from Soul Calibur. The differences are NIGHT AND DAY!

Neijin: Never saw why this was necessary or why only some characters had it. It looked dumb and it gave some characters an unfair advantage.

Konquest: Don't even get me started. Why this exists is beyond me. Okay, in MK:DA it was a relatively nice distraction from the main game. But to turn it into a, I dunno, action game? Fetch quest? Whatever you want to call it, the idea was awful. The graphics and voice acting were hideous. The gameplay was beyond boring. Why does this exist? Sure, there's fighting, but most of the time you're either wandering around or waiting for time to pass.

Test your Sight: Why? What is this in the game for? What point does it serve being in a FIGHTING game?

Deathtraps: Sorry, but these were just a terrible idea from the start. I love the Pit from MK1 and MK2, but why put something in that COMPLETELY changes the way a battle is fought? It's nice to have a change in strategy, but it's a glorified ring out. Either have ring outs or don't. But having them only be in certain parts of certain stages, well, it just made people want to do nothing more than angle their opponent for the cheap win. Not a huge fan.

MK Chess: See Test your Sight.

MK Tetris: See Test your Sight.

Kreate a Kharacter: It was okay, but there needed to be TONS more options in terms of outfit pieces, special moves etc. It wasn't bad, but it seems as though there is a LOT more that can be done here. How about Kreate a Tournament? I've suggested it before, but you give your kreated kharacters bios and endings (written of course), and you have a select screen and a versus screen etc.

Motor Kombat: Two words: No thanks. Oh, also, see Test your Sight.

To me, KAK was kind of a half measure. Hopefully they'll do it again and take the idea all the way this time.

Test your Might (MK vs DC): I'll say this once: Do NOT interrupt the flow of gameplay for a button mashing minigame! Never again!

Freefall kombat: Okay, I guess I'll have to say it again. Do NOT interupt the flow of gameplay!

Klose kombat: 3rd times a charm? Seriously, who thought that a "guess the button your opponent is going to press" minigame would be fun DURING A FIGHT?

So yeah, to me there have been a lot of half baked ideas or concepts that may have sounded good at the time, but for the most part were either executed poorly or never had a place in a fighting game to begin with.

As to your other points Predator, I completely agree about the roster size. 20-25 characters would be ideal. Maybe start at 15, with five spots open on the select screen. Then you add four more spots as you get the super unlockable characters. But really, that's about all that's needed in my opinion. After that it's kind of overkill, and the MK team's record seems to be quantity up/quality down to an extent.

Oh yeah, and no more crossovers. I'm in favor of that one big time. I'm not sure I'd even want to see MK vs SF. Just give me a new MK game please! We haven't had a legit sequel since MK:D and I'm starting to develop a twitch lol.

Crap dude. Do you realize how much information you crammed into that block of text ThePredator151? I think you and me are largely on the same page. I read that post and I agree with almost all of the points you made.

Let me respond with my take on some of the specific ones you made.

1. Next gen systems, memory space isn't much of an option, an established mk cast of 50 characters or more. Any future roster better have at least 26 characters. A majority of them have set special moves so there isn't a lot to create. There are no justifications or excuses for a small roster. This size allows the mk team to have a fairly large number of returning characters with 5-6 new characters. Agreed they need to keep a fairly consistent roster for about 3 games. That way they can develop and perfect the characters which also contributes to balance.

Basically agree with you on roster size, just up it one slot or two.

2. Mini games. I really have no preference one way or the other on them. I will say though that I liked the free fall kombat in mk vs dc. Also like the test your might running through wall things. Keep those but tweak and improve them. Klose kombat if it were kept needs to be improved. I felt it stopped the momentum of the fights somewhat. Kind of liked it but I wouldn't miss it per se if it didn't return.

3. Wasted potential

Ditto. This is one of mk's biggest weakness and simultaneously it's biggest strength. I have said this before and I will say it again. God bless Ed Boon. He isn't afraid to try something different and change things up. Where other franchised stay exactly the same with little or no changes, mk continually evolves. That is one thing that mk has going for it. Remember how much publicity chess kombat and konquest got prior to release? It was good for marketing and it translated to big sales.

Now I agree with what I think you are trying to say here Predator. Where mk has always fallen short and quite frankly pissed me off is not following thru on good ideas and dropping good ones.

Kreate a Kharacter had so much potential. Why was it dropped? It is a good thing for fighting games. It is a way to create older characters who didn't make the cut and create new characters for the players who get tired of the roster and need more variety.

KAK should return with a bigger selection of items, old costumes for instance. The ability to create more races, Zaterrans, Tarkatans, and Shokan. I mean cmon. Why couldn't you create a four armed shokan? Male or female. The ability to make a tiger striped one or a spotted one. That was a no brainer.

The ability to assign a fireball or teleportation move with particle effects present to a character was available. Okay fine. How about the ability to change the color of the fireballs. Lets say I want to make my own Noob Saibot but give him a freeze like Sub Zero. I want it to be black ice. I give somebody Scorpions teleport but I want the little fire effects to be green. I assign Raiden's electricity projectile to somebody but I want it to be purple. That would be awesome.

Why were the multiple arenas like in mka not included in mk vs dc. I liked the animations of knocking somebody down stairs like in the Wasteland. I like knocking them thru walls in Goro's lair. That should be included along with the new free fall kombat and test your might running thru wall thing in mk vs dc. They lost something that was a cool visual aesthetic and added a nice cinematic quality to the fights that no other fighting game has.

Death traps need to return. They were made for mk. In 3d fighting games if you are going to have ring outs in certain levels then they should be fatal.
Now I do agree that it got old a little that one hit could end the match so easy. Modify them somewhat. Make them so that you have to have less than half a life bar or maybe only on the final round of a match. Bring them back though.

More interactive arenas. Great potential their that wasn't followed through on in mk vs dc. The falling cliffs was an awesome level in mkd. The constantly shrinking arena was cool. The hanging corpse in mkd that could be kicked around was cool. The fan that you could be knocked into and spit out of in mka Sektor's level. The acid spitting Buddhas statues in mkda. The prisoners in mkd that reache out and grabbed you in mkd. The bell that you could be knocked into in mka after which you would fall down to the second level.

Now that I think about it mka had some of the best arenas in mk history. Far superior to anything in mk vs dc.

Continue to personalize the throws. Scorpion and Sub Zero and Quan Chi had awesome throws in mka and mkd. What the hell happened in mk vs dc? They all had the same throw. UNACCEPTABLE!

The foundation has been laid. The last trilogy of 3d games mkda, mkd, and mka had some very innovative ideas. They also had some very cool little things that I would hate to never see again. Continue with them, just keep adding to them.

4. Crossovers.

Complete 100% agreement here Predator. The only crossover I am interested in is MK vs SF.

There are only 2 options here if this is going to happen. You can have one or two characters appear as guest characters like Soul Calibur. The other option is to make a deal where Midway gets to license the SF characters for one game to make with Capcom's approval and Capcom in return gets to make a game with the mk characters pending Midway's approval. That way we get 2 games out of this.

I think I got all your points Predator. How do you like my block of text?

Something else I would like is a story mode like MK vs DC where you take each character for 3 or 4 fights and play through the actual story of mk 9. That way there is no waiting for the next game to find out what happens. Everything is canon.

Also NO RAGE METER. No power up moves. No aggressor meter. I hate beating my opponent up just to have them pull that rage crap and come back and beat me. Bull.

I suggested a Kreate a tournament feature before Baraka407. LOL. You trying to steal my idea?



Kreate a tournament is a another no brainer. The ability to set the amount of participants, set the sub boss you want to fight against and set the boss or champion of your own tournament is a great idea. Hell, I've said this before. You should be able to make yourself the defending mk champion of your own tournament and choose to defend your title, or to actually participate in your tournament along with the other kombatants.

That would be freaking awesome. Record dialogue so that the announcer announces you as the defending mk champion to spice it up and give some real incentive to play tournament mode. The ability to set the arenas and match rules. Complete customization to host your own mk tournament.

Again though Baraka407, the middle ground as far as returning characters vs new ones is pretty much what the mk team does now. Half and half. I personally prefer a slightly higher percentage of returning fighters so we can actually explore their potential. But to each his own.

I agree with you though that we haven't had a sequel since mkd. MKA in my own mind was more of a what if game like mk vds dc. I know it actually happened but it just screwed up the story so much, I like to pretend it didn't happen at all. Even though it was fun to play. I liked it much better that mkda for instance.

No more "animated looking" characters. From MK4 on...it just got to cartoony....

No more "filler" characters, with the same moves from other characters.

No more outlandish and way out there stories... MK1-3 made sense.

I want MK to go back to it's roots using real actors, in 3d game, with brutal somewhat realistic fatalites, and a story that isn't a convoluted mess.

DC characters!

Wow Thrawn, not a fan of MK:DA? I thought that game was a LOT better than MK:D, at least in terms of the look and the character selection. I dunno, it felt so new at the time for MK. It seemed as though they were headed in the right direction. The game was decent and something to build off of. Then MK:D came out and it felt like alot of fan service. Dark, gritty settings? Check. Jade, Baraka, Nightwolf and other "classics" returning? Check. I dunno, I think that game was one of my bigger disappointments in the MK history.

Anyways, I'm not sure that you and I have the same idea when it comes to kreate a tournament. Maybe we do, I'm not sure. You seem to have more of a customizable tournament idea, where I'm talking about literally creating your own "Mortal Kombat Tournament" with your own created characters, stories, endings etc. I dunno, maybe we're on the same page here.

Just you wait there one minute though Thrawn, I have been peddling this Kreate a Tournament idea since this site was MK5.org!

lol. Sorry, didn't mean to sound mad. I'm obviously not one bit. I've been throwing that idea out there for a long time though. Of course I don't think it's been since the MK5.org days lol. Pretty much since Soul Calibur 3 and MK:A brought the create a fighter idea over from wrestling games. I just thought, why not take it one step further in MK? You know, really put their signature on it?

You get to set your own background and layout style for the select screen, create all of your own fighters, you get templates to write their bios on as well as their endings (maybe you take still shots from replays and use them as pictures for the endings? Kind of ghetto, but better than simply reading text.)

To me, that would be the MK team's ultimate gift for fans. It would be the big mode. Kreate a kharacter and Kreate a tournament. Forget konquest or MK Chess or whatever. This would be the MK team saying "here, we made this awesome new storyline for the game, but you're all a creative bunch, wouldn't it be cool if you could create your own Mortal Kombat game? Well, here you go!"

Personally, I think that would be AWESOME. You have all of the special moves from past and present MK games as well as about 200 new special moves made just for this mode. You also need to have a TON of clothing options. All of this of course would be unlocked with currency, which you gain by fighting single player story, arcade, tournament, survival etc or wagering online). DLC? Yeah, more moves and clothing options. Not too tough there.

Yeah, I've had these thoughts, almost entirely unchanged for a pretty long time. What are your thoughts on how a kreate a tournament mode would work outside of the voice stuff (not sure how that would work, but it would be freakin cool if it did) and the champion idea (very cool also by the way)?

Instead of responding individually, I'll just respond to the topic again.

1. One thing I'm not so sure about after seeing it, is the physical damage. I'm not so sure that it worked out well enough once applied. mmm I mean, it really doesn't do much for ya does it? It didn't for me accept for at the end of a match when the victory pose gave us a close up...sometimes.

At the same time though, there would probably have to be something just as aesthetically pleasing to substitute it in it's absence. So I guess this first on is really on the fence for me.

I think I'd like to see what the next game would look like with greater emphasis on more rewarding finishing moves, or more illustrative victory poses, or better effects on special moves.

idk. Physical damage didn't quite do it for me, so I think this is an opportunity for experimentation, or greater emphasis somewhere else.

: Put the victory poses back on the select screen like they were back in the day. Mk1-T.

: Put more into weight distribution, or those monotonous standing animations.

: Use the physical damage on cause and effect when in the midst of a special move situation. To where, when I throw a projectile or something, it looks more detailed, and whether or not the opponent takes the hit or blocks it, that looks more detailed too.

I remember simply liking to see Raidens lightning explode and travel around the opponents body whether they took the hit or blocked.

: Use that effect more on the accuracy of facial expressions. I think I get more out of seeing the stress on the characters' face than seeing the damage change the look of my character. Makes it feel like they're doing hard work. Which, I think is actually pretty appropriate.

Hmm, full faces have obvious expressions, but for a character with a mask on, we might be able to notice Sub-Zero or Scorpions eyes doing different things during a fight. Haha, alot of the time, I think it might correlate with what the players facial expression is doing at the same time too.

2. Old Conceptual Ideology.

Don't get intimidated, lol look, Good Cop // Bad Cop is more complex now days. Mere good and evil is more complex now. So, to simply categorize some of the characters as good, neutral, or bad....is an old way of conceptualizing a "new" idea.

This is that whole shades of grey thing that people keep talking about. I think the problem is that the MkTeam see them in the characters, but may not be able to articulate them in the games to this more modernized, more intelligent audience. Where as earlier on, it was easier because it was what it was, and that's all it was.

--

This is also my way of saying that there's always more than 3-5 ways to say one thing. So I would love to see something subtle that indicates that they are in fact, not complacent in what they know to present to us in this next game. "Everything's the same, but it's from different vantage points, described or played through completely different."

3. Thrawn, I don't like DeathTraps. I think they should simple reinvent the pit, and give it to us from the camera angle that we had in Mk2 is all. Maybe try to come up with a bottomless pit that plays with the camera more or something. Maybe sees the screen jump around because "the camera doesn't know how to follow an endlessly falling character" or something. Knee-jerk "wtf" complex from the player. It'd be cool if the camera swirled around the character once or twice in that instance, and then pulled out, ascending back up out of the pit, watching the victim be left forever in the pit screaming and yelling and clawing for life. haha...sinister.

But, to be very honest, I want to be able to fight, or get beat the whole time. I won't close the door on experiencing these arenas differently though. For example, the Falling Cliffs arena in MKA. It's kinda odd but, I think I love that arena .

It presented a sense of urgency that I think is appropriate for a fighting game that's supposed to be high octane and fast paced. So yea, things that give you an adequate and ample chance to fight for the win, but that really challenge your skill instead of limit you. Those things work great for one or two arenas in my book. Makes it seem like if you do happen to fall off, it was just by chance. Even though you know the guy across the way might have been trying to position you for the fall.

I absolutely despise getting "knocked into" something though. There was no value whatsoever in that for me whether I was winning because of it or not. This includes being knocked off of the Falling Cliffs arenas.

I know there were times where simply "falling off" the arena just surprised me because I was so into trying to beat my opponent. That's the good part, but being knocked off by a strong attack is terrible.

--

Let me mention something here again too. I want to see what it'd be like to "deal with" when bystanders become a complication in the 1 on 1 fight in one arena.

I understand now that programming for that sort of thing is sticky business, but the way I see it applied works like the melee style fighting in MkSm with multiple opponents around.

I look at it like, we have the 3D arena (like MkSm), we have the moving camera (like MkSm), we have the same basic axis points on the two main characters (like MkSm). SO? I'm curious as to what effect adding "dummies" into the equation would be.

Look at this, particularly from about 1:07sec, to about 1:30sec.

You have Jackie and the other guy as the main two axis points that the camera will pretty much stick with no matter what. Which btw, is just about how a normal match would behave in a fighting game. The problem is how other things in the arena interact with those two axis points.

The normal idea is that nothing else really should "interact" with those axis points because it may disturb other parts of programming too much in that fighting situation. But I'm wondering if it would matter at all because of how a normal camera in a normal 1 on 1 fight zooms in and out (mainly a 2D perspective at that point, like in MkvsDc). I also wonder if it's simply too much activity on one screen for current technology to handle.

But then, and get this, the Unreal engine was built to handle these sorts of things [48 sec in] . So I don't see why we couldn't see something like the Courtyard arena, with the potential to resemble that "bar fight" vid with Jackie Chan I posted above.

You'd have you, vs your opponent, and when triggered (probably by going into the crowd at some point) the monks can get in the way, or get involved in your guys' fight. Helping and or hurting your chances of winning vs your opponent.

If there's a monk, or couple of monks fighting (or whatever) between you and your opponent, and you need to hit your opponent to win the fight, they should be able to react in a multitude of ways. I.E. they take punches and kicks from your or your opponent, they get hurt by projectiles ect....and on the other end of that, they could serve as projectiles themselves, or shields, or whatever...

But they're "dummies", so they take one or two hits, and die or fly off screen...or run away, or whatever. I don't know about them actually focusing on you or your opponent as an "enemy" on screen and actually trying to hit you, because I don't know how plausible that would be.

But all this commotion really is there for, is to complicate your fight from a skill, and sense of chaos point of view. If you can bat off these obstacles (the dummy monks), win the fight, AND perform a fatality? I think it serves it's purpose for challenging your skill, your patience, and overall, your focus in that one type of arena.

Just an idea that looks like technology is ready for it if the developers are willing. But again, I don't know to what degree, or in what extreme ways the programming would limit this from happening. All I know at this point is that it hasn't been done because it's been easier not to bother with it.

4. Baraka407, the only thing we disagree on is the Konquest mode, so I'll pick on that for a bit .

I love the Konquest mode, I hope they keep it around as far as an avenue to letting us play through the current overall story of whatever the game is. I liked MKD's Konquest the best, pretty much paralleled by MkSm, and seconded by MKA's Konquest mode. Those are the best ones that serve as a basic template to build from in my opinion. I did not like MkDa's Konquest mode at all. THAT one was really boring. I felt like there wasn't nearly enough control, even though I liked the mysticism associated with how they presented it.

The other three let me play and learn alot more. Which is a couple of the main selling points for me as far as how the Konquest mode saga continues. If that mode does not do those main fundamental things well, I hate it. It's why I can't stand MkvsDc's story mode.

Yea, there was fighting, yea, there were some cool cutsenes (that got boring btw), yea, there was even information given throughout the thing....but control severely lacked in this latest version of that mode. It's a terribly big "no no" to "usher players through a game. How in the hell do you actually "play" that? Push play?

So, I'd love to see them use that mode to flesh out the events surrounding a particular games' "Mortal Kombat Story" each time.

More specific? Give me KAKharacter, and let me basically become a inconspicuous contestant in the contest. I feel like it's perfect positioning every time, to get all the information and answers that I'd need for a game. All the while building up my personal character in a way that is personally important to me. I love the idea of KAK, and some of the appeal to KAK, is the possibility of creating oneself, and being allowed to personally invest, and engage in the game...personally.

I think Konquest mode is perfect for this. It would serve it's purpose in more than a couple of ways:

a. Deliver the story like a moive. Think of the extras on a dvd. We players view the main characters through a lens similar to that sometimes. We get information from eaves dropping sometimes, we pick up items in a way that effects the parent story of the game in some very small ways
(ex: you intercepted Shinnoks REAL amulet, now look at how the "official characters" have been dealing with that conundrum. lol)

It vests you personally in what's going on in that particular story for that game, and really provokes you to buy the next game for something similar.

SO, how do we get into fights? Well, I think first we can train with a personal sensei. But I think that should be separate. Like part of a dojo through the practice area in the game.
But, fights in the Konquest mode should happen organically. We should fight through a small, local contest to be nominated to participate in Mortal Kombat first. Should be short, and it might even be as simple as an introduction announcement once we get done making our character and entering the mode. Then, once we get out into the world(s), we start to find out things about Mortal Kombat and other characters, that positions us for or against other characters. Which, makes us find ourselves in fights with those "official" characters or personalities.

Like, if I'm a good guy KAK, and I "happen to be" on the same path that Quan Chi is on while trying to get the amulet, we'd probably fight. haha..Especially if he notices me eavesdropping or he sees me too often around where he's going.
Generally speaking though, if I align my KAK a certain way, and that doesn't change in the process of going through the mode in many ways at all, I should pretty much be set up to fight a certain category of opponents during my konquest. Makes sense to me, and it also delivers the story in a way that if I wasn't playing through the Konquest mode, the reason why Quan Chi would have a hard time finding the amulet, wouldn't be adequately explained in this example.
But without going through the mode, I'd probably get a lame explanation that seemed like a plot hole in the story.
I.E. "Quan Chi fought an anonymous warrior in pursuit of the amulet, but was unsuccessful in his first attempt. The amulet eventually made into the hands of blah blah blah.....Which gave him the opportunity to...blah blah blah" by the time it was time to wrap up MK9's overall story, and move that mainstay character forward and dismiss our kak from that sub-plot.

tah dah. *shrugs* Gave us something worthwhile to play through, vested us in that story for more than a day or two, and gives us reason to go back and play the other alignments to find out how else we as players can effect another slew of roster characters, and where we as players fit into the overall story for that game.

"Delivers the story like a movie". Action, drama, suspense, ect

b. Makes me care about the character I am playing with.

I am the main character so long as KAK is associated with this. Who wouldn't care about the character we play with then? So, where Shujinko and Taven fail as forced characters, players Finally win in this case. That, and it has residual. They could "re-introduce" this feature over and over for games to come so long as things are adequately updated and tweaked.

It's a win.

c. Character builder.

Continuing with the Quan Chi example above, what if I can't beat Quan Chi for that amulet? Wouldn't it make sense that I'd have to save the game, and go train more, go find some money for stuff, go get more information, and overall become a stronger, better fighter?

Couldn't I also be building a story while all of this is happening? I don't think it'd be that difficult if they treated it like a "captains log" of the things I've done in the game. Make it automatic, and by the time the official path of the mode is over, calculate a bio or ending based on the events that I went through. Aha! this is about the equivalent of a calculator or widet in it's performance. It's an active sleeper cell that compiles, calculates, and makes a final assessment of data. I'm sure something like this can tell my story for me once I'm done playing. I'm sure it can even assess updates to that story if this mode was open ended, and I chose to finish the game a bunch of times with the same character.

I'm not saying it's easy....I'm saying it's simple. Aheh, I don't know about you guys, but I didn't feel like writing my own bio in MKA. I wanted one manufactured for me based on the things that I did while I was playing the game. I think that the best place to put something like this, is in conjunction with an Offline Konquest Mode+KAKharacter.

It should be able to manufacture up some text that lets me know where I been, how many fights I fought and who, what kinds of things I picked up or got rid off. Things I still posses, training I went through, powers I have, information I gained, my alignment, allies//enemies, and probably even the source for some of these things.

And....idk, based on all these things that I took my KAK through, my bio, or ending or whatever could read:

"ThePredator151 trained vigorously from youth to become an eligible contestant in the Mortal Kombat contest. He was to eventually fight his way into the nomination of the greatest champion in his district by his counsel of sensei', one of which was Kung Lao. Leaving to contend in Mortal Kombat, Fujin graced the young champion and warned that he may now be a target for the Black Dragon leader of his district. Fujin was right.

Soon enough, ThePredator151 fought, and defeated that sub-boss in a vicious bout that ended questionably brutal for a new champion. The extremely lopsided bout made the new champ bold. So bold in fact, that he sported the badge of the black dragon leader on a rag around his foot. A symbol of insult to the clan instantly recognizable by any allies the clan may have.
As such, ThePredator151's first loss came at the hands of the Black Dragons leader; Kano. He was lucky the encounter didn't produce irony, and instead shed mercy on a badly beaten district champion. A determined Kano doesn't show mercy, but being on the side of a god of wind doesn't hurt things either.

From that encounter, Fujin gave ThePredator151 directions to a meeting of the current Earth champions near a portal. It was there that they'd be briefed and then teleported to Earth's third plane of existence to engage in Mortal Kombat. The meeting didn't yield much more information than he already knew, but a particular piece of information about an amulet intrigued him.
Warning that an immensely powerful sorcerer named Quan Chi would likely be in pursuit of such an item ceded a bit of greed in ThePredator151, and once teleported, he knew his journey will have just begun.

Once there, each earth champion was to have two preliminary matches, and up to five, if they made it that far, official fights that would determine a champion of Mortal Kombat. Before his trails started though, ThePredator151 veered away from this basic formula, and as a consequence, he stumbled onto information that might lead him to the amulet before the sorcerer would know about it. An odd old crazy man told him a story of how he was once deceived into believing that he was the elder gods champion, and that he knew where an amulet
was hidden.
ThePredator151 sympathized with the man, and in exchange for directions to passage out of the third plane, the man told him exactly where to find the amulet. The man told ThePredator151 that his name was Shujinko just before entering the portal, and warned that any man crazy enough to to go up against Quan Chi as a mere mortal was a fool. Undisturbed by that however, ThePredator151 took this information and traveled to a section of the third plane that noone would think to go besides someone called Shujinko.
He traveled for two of the seven days of the Mortal Kombat contest towards the destination Shujinko had told him, to a rare mountain through some woods, and into a cave that swerved and winded downward underground.
When he got to a landing in the caves path, he found where the amulet was hidden. But it was at this second that he also heard someone coming, but could not take cover quickly enough. It was Quan Chi!

The sorcerer laughed and told him that he would kill ThePredator151 if he did not move aside and save Quan Chi the pleasure of killing him. But they both could see that this sorcerer had no intention, let alone history of letting things slide. Quan Chi was rumored to enjoy the dismal ending of things, and they both knew that a fight was inevitable.

ThePredator151 tried to fight the sorcerer, but nothing more than a rag doll to the sorcerer. Just to hear the shreeks of pain and anguish come from an earth champion pleased him more.
Quan Chi had the amulet in hand, and was simply reveling in the added bonus of killing another mortal. The sorcerer tossed ThePredator151 through a weak borough in the depths of the cave, and once he concluded that it was time to permanently end the fun, he walked over to that borough to finish off the mortal. He spouted some words to the fallen champion and put his hand on the wall. But not realizing that the whole structure was weak for a reason, a boobie trap was set off when his hand pushed through that wall, triggering an avalanche of rocks and boulders onto the sorcerer.
Virtually buried alive, the only thing that remained exposed was part of the sorcerers limp white wrist....with the amulet loosely lay in hand. Though badly beaten, and almost to the point of immobility, ThePredator151 struggled to seize this opportunity. He crawled desperately over to the dead arm and slowly slipped the amulet away from the sorcerers grasp. It took what seemed like an eternity just to get out of the cave, but once he did, he immediately noticed a boost in energy and strength.

It seemed that the longer ThePredator151 had this amulet, the stronger he became, and within hours outside that cave, he was jogging, and even sprinting back towards the third planes main temple. The trip to the amulet took two whole days, the trip back took twelve hours.

Not only did he make it back to the contest in time to defeat all his preliminary foes, but he eventually went on to win
Mortal Kombat.
However, after review of his win by the Gods of EarthRealm and with the Elder Gods permission, ThePredator151 was stripped of his win and cursed to live 50 god years in the third plane of Earth. An equivalent of 100 human years in the first plane on Earth. He would suffer the effects of his normal progression in age for 50yrs. Returning an old retched man, just like that old crazy man he met, Shujinko

Eh...that might be too long, and it's rough as all hell but, you see it. There are pressure points in that story that a data calculator can pick up on, and given a dictionary, the calculator can write the story piece by piece as you do things going through the mode. You do not get this finished product until you finish the mode, however, a log is kept for your KAK slot on your hard drive.

To simplify this process, they could also use templates with the basic information predisposed based on the path that a particular alignment grants your type of character. "If you're a good guy, you get this basic stuff. If you're evil, you get this basic stuff....ect."

Plug the username in here and there, accent with a couple specifics about how you played the mode, or who you talked to, or what your powers are...ect, and there you have it.

Reads more difficult than when actually applied. However, the programming is easier said than done. I know.

Lastly, I wanted to say that in Konquest+KAK, our KAK will almost always have to be dismissed, or concluded at the end. Naturally. Our KAK's are not going to precede into the next game. (that would be dope though) So, they'd have to be conclusive endings, bios, or profiles that see our character bow out, die, walk away, retire, or otherwise go away from the games storyline. If you win and become the champ in your ending, obviously, it is non-canon.

But the point is, the gimme after you beat the mode should as adequate, and as intuitive as something like this.

d. Easter Egg hunt.

These are just cool. I think that the best thing they could ever do with a mode like this, is leave it open ended so that we can go back through, and find secrets and such that let us get more play out of the game.

Current gen, it's also an opportunity now for them to make some extra bucks off us if the game is good.

New maps and challenge packages for the Konquest Mode, new skins and attribute packages for the KAK side of the deal.
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So, the bottom line I guess, is that it needs to serve some fundamental purposes in order to be worth being there. Yea, it needs to be aesthetically pleasing and functional. But here are some of the key elements:

- Tell that games' story in great detail: Get innovative with delivery. Can't really get detail from the ladder and an ending.

- Let me be apart of that greatly detailed story: No, I don't wanna just read or watch it. Be more inclusive with the player here. "How can I become a part of Mortal Kombat in the way the thing plays?" I think the answers probably Konquest mode+KAKharacter.

- Make me care about the character I am using: Don't usher me through an-y-thing. Let alone make it so I can only play with some predisigned predispositioned character with a role that is already established as detrimental to that games story.

- Make me play it over and over again: Wasted potential in MkvsDc with the two sides thing. Alignment is good, but they need to give us ready access to like 3-5 different types of alignments, all having stout differences and outcomes from each other. Be greater the longer it is, and if these alignments could be intermingled. Creates different personalities while playing.

- Give me control of manipulating things, especially about my character throughout the time that I am playing the thing. For instance, let me get money or experience, or go practice, and let me see it reflect in how much better or different my character performs after doing so....in the mode. Change clothes, change alignment...whatever. I need to see it reflect once I load my game back up again at the spot I stopped to make those changes.

Only control that should be minimized, or taken away, are instances where I am forced to sit on a single page of the game. Like excessive reading, or loading time. Minimize my control over that sort of thing and read it to me, show me a picture, or eliminate the loading by giving me something to do during that time. If I have to sit and read alot (because I also want a lot of story in the game), then give me control of scrolling really fast. Stopping, playing, rewinding..ect.

I don't wanna write my own story though, I want it manufactured based on what I've been doing in the mode (just like generating statistics). But intuitive and inventive enough to want to repeat the process that gave it to me in the first place. Aheh, it's like getting mail from the mailman as a kid.

Only time I should be sitting on a screen not really doing anything is if I'm watching some cinematic or scrolling through some reading, if I'm trying to figure out where I wanna go next in the games' options, or if I'm manipulating my KAK in whatever way. Other than that I'd imagine I should be moving around in the game somewhere. MkvsDc made me sit still waaaay too much.


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Alright, that was all over the place. I'm outta here for a bit.

no more of those gay meters and power ups stuff

stop making smoke and noob the same person, those like two of the coolest characters ever and to combine them is just retarded

stop making stupid characters with weird names that I can't remember or even care to, still to simple ones, cage, reptile, scorpion its no surprise these are the characters that stuck around because they are cool and easy to remember

no more zombie lui kang
WHY WOULD U KILL LUI KANG ARE U STUPID
I'm dissapointed in you midway..