Skeleton: " Why is it always Earthrealm that is on the defensive? Let's change it up."

That's a good idea man!

Krackerjack, I still don't grant your premise that everyone would only choose the best moves, specials, and that everyone would dress like a ninja. Players want to win, of course, but they also want a character that they like. Besides, if everyone had the same moves, no one would enjoy playing online because they'd basically be playing themselves. Instead, you'd see a lot of differentiation, as players would want to have their own unique creation.

Regardless, here's my list:

I want:

*5 special moves per character at least (as was promised before MK:D)

*Keep the dark look to the series like what MK:D had

*A survival mode (featuring a multitiered level: For example, 5 tiers that start in the living forest, you fall down the green river into a swamp area, you get kicked into a drainage area and wind up in a sewer area, you gut uppercutted into a castle and then kicked out of the balcony and back into the forrest...but this is just an example)

*A tag battle mode

*Support characters: Kinda like how Smoke does a move and Noob pops in and throws stars. More of this would be cool. For example, Jax may not be playable, but Sonya could finish off a combo by calling Jax in with his machine gun.

*Playable Characters: Baraka, Mileena, Sektor, Noob, Shao Khan, Smoke (human), Ermac, Scorpion, Jade, Sub-Zero, Kenshi, Quan Chi, Kung Lao, Kai, Rayden (evil), Ashrah, Kira (completely revamped) Jarrod and 7 new characters (with one being a vampire, one being a shokan, and one being a member of the Red Dragon).

*Hidden characters: Rain (something new and non-ninja like), Shinnok (completely revamped), and an 8th new character from the Black Dragon

*A create a character mode (like the one a described in my thread, where other modes give you currency, outfit items, and special moves)

*A krypt full of useful items (hidden characters, create a character items, new arenas, etc)

*Graphics that truly take advantage of Xbox 2, PS3, and Nintendo Revolution.

*More throws (especial contextual throws like when you dodge and end up on the right side or behind your opponent).

*Last and probably most important: A refined fighting system that doesn't allow for infinites, more balanced gameplay (and fighters), and a tighter overall fighting system like what others have described in this thread as well as Tony the Tiger's thread.

What I don't want:

*Rehashed fighting styles: Havik had one from Shang Tsung and one from Quan Chi, and neither felt different from the last game at all! That's terrible!

*Rehashed special moves or animations: Kira, I'm looking at you on this one. Hotaru also has a fireball that looks a bit too much like Sub-Zero's ground freeze. Again, terrible.

*A limited counter system: Give a counter move for foot attacks or fist attacks to weaker characters and give them unlimited counters.

*Infinites: Use maximum damage, patches, or whatever it takes to cut down on the cheapness.

*Characters: Bo Rai Cho, Johnny Cage, Stryker, Liu Kang, Jax, Sonya, Kitana, Meat, Blaze, Mokap, Moloch, Drahmin, Dragon King (good for one game, but needs to be retired), Cyrax, Havik (great looking character with horrible special moves, a lame plot, and two rehashed move sets)

*Minigames that have no relation to the main game: Release a fully loaded puzzle game seperately if you want, but don't waste the time with these types of modes on MK7.

More to come I'm sure

Good thread!!

Also a Tournament Type Bracket System Elimination game (for gamecube since we can't play online.) (Gamecube Sucks) I should have bought an X-Box

The things I DON'T want to see in newer MK games:

-overwhelming of ninjas. Please, we have Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Reptile (if he reevolves) as basics, plus there is Noob Saibot for a black ninja. No more. And no "palette swaps" on 3D models.

-not a one sided game. So have eerything what makes MK different: the wide variety of characters. Have the few sorcerors, few ninjas, few earthre-alm defenders, max two cyborgs, the two-three Seidans, Havik and so on and so on...

-don't listen to one sided fans and don't ditch those characters who made themselves a new, different feel through the games: Bo' Rai Cho, Drahmin

-arena interaction is OK, but the stage kills should be pit fatalities with a short combinantion. it is too easy to toss someone into a deathtrap in MKD

-no brutalities, friendships, babalities, but the Hara Kiri is a must!

-if there is ONE character hat has similar moves or move stealing, explain it why, and give at least ONE unique move for him/her/it.

-the most important, i repeat, THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE: a BETTER and LESS GLITCHY, FAIR ENGINE.

-you can keep the slideshow pictures as the endings, but please either make them longer, larger and better or use bridge animations between the pauses when the narrator tells about the events taking place.

-No filler characters, and at least 1/3 of the roster should be newbie
characters. Also, soon it would be time for the old ones to go: generation
change. Introduce us a new breed of fighters.

-damage would be shown on both face, body, and clothes.

-instant kills. Fuck the finish him, I still can't figure out why I can't twist
someones neck for the first attack. Keep the real gory fatalities for finish
him/her, but allow us quick and realistic kils during the match.

-more orchestral music

-announce Flawless victory everytime-no overshadowing fatality this time!

-reasons, clearing up plotline holes, a well-developed storyline.

-make the content usable. Nice to have concept arts, but they are separa-
ted into too many unlockables. Let the krypt be something usefull.

-better konquest. Shujinkos goofing may be boring for the third time.

-no funny stuff in the finishers. And no uber-crazy stuff like Funkhey
Darrius.

-less specials. Two or three, best case four should be the limit.

I don't mean everybody will use the same moves, only the people that matter. Only the people who want to play the game. There will still be thousands of idiots who choose the most useless moves.

There will always be people who play for some stupid reason like "it looks cool", but those people will never play the same game the actual good players are playing. They'll do some things that they think look good, but they'll never really compete with anybody (which is what fighting games are for).

The people who are playing the game competitively, at the highest level, will always choose the best moves, regardless of what they are, or how cool they look. What's the point in being 'different', when your character is less effective than everybody else's, and you're losing matches you could be winning?

The best players use the best tools, not the most different. If anybody wants to compete with these players, then they're going to have to use the best possible tools too, or they're going to lose. Simple.

Heh, I can see the scrubs crying now: "I lost to that guy but it didn't count, because he's cheap! He used all the best moves! He had to use all the best moves in the game to win, so obviously he has no skill, and i'm a far better player than he is, dispite losing to him 78 times in a row."

Krackerjack wrote: "There will always be people who play for some stupid reason like "it looks cool", but those people will never play the same game the actual good players are playing. They'll do some things that they think look good, but they'll never really compete with anybody (which is what fighting games are for)."

So why can't there be these two types of players again? Casual fans and competetive fans? I don't think that the only reason to play a fighting game is to win. If you're having fun, who cares? Yeah, someone who loses 80 times in a row may get pissed, but that doesn't mean that they'll chose the exact same moves as everyone else out of all the moves in MK:DA, MK:D, MK7, plus additional moves. If the MK team could make the moves as balanced as possible, and reduce the infinites and cheapness, I think that there could be a good variety. Besides, out of the thousands of casual and competetive fans, I'm sure there would be enough variety, even in the competetive ranks to at least warrant the mode. Sure, some will complain because there isn't enough variety, but I'm sure you could find someone different to fight if you actually looked around.

Oh, and my main reason for wanting this mode has nothing to do with the online implications, though I do think they'd be cool. I have an Xbox, but no Xbox Live. I would want the create a character mode, like many others, for being able to create old characters (yes, MK2 Reptile for example) as well as my own creations that I could use to play against my friends, who could use a memory card and bring over their own creations. To me, it's the best of all possible worlds, and I still think that this is better than MK rock paper scissors or an MK video board game or something silly like that because it relates well to the main modes. You give me an idea for an extra mode that has all of this, the flow from Kombat, Survival, Tag, Online, the Krypt etc.

Fighting games ARE about winning. Having fun is a different issue altogether, but it cannot possibly be logically disputed that fighting games are not about winning. It's the entire point of a fighting game.

If people find fun by playing a game their own way, then thats great, but that still doesn't change the main purpose or objective of the game. For example, if people play a racing game to drive backwards and smash other cars, then that's fun, but it still doesn't change the main objective of the game which is to win by coming first. Just like in a fighting game, if people find fun by doing flashy moves, then that's cool, but the main objective and purpose of playing is still to win.

This is why the game says "you win", and not "you had fun".



Funny you should mention that, heh. The last two games (MKD-MKDA) have been rock paper scissors games.

Anyway, I think it would be a cool idea as long as there was no possible way to play as your created character online. People can just regulate the usage of uber characters in vs play or at touneys at their own discretion.

Some people simply "don't feel it right" to have "fun". That is like playing Diablo 2: use replay the game, or kill a boss for the 44-th time just to get something special out of him. now that boring to me.

Despite that I had some powerfull characters in D2, I did not abuse the bosses or the replay ability just to get a few trinkets and unique items.
Same applies partially for MK. it is not about the moves:

if somebody's good (and has a competitive soul) he can beat you without the most powerfull attacks of the game. Wha do you say about that? Sure it may take a little more time to win, and you have to time out everything, not to mention that you have to learn to use the engine to your advantage. (infi-nites syndrome) It depends on the situation from my experience.

So summarium: those who are good can win also by not using the best moves, but if the engines flaws restrict you from using them becouse of the ridiculously risky nature of theese atacks, thats not your problem, it's the developers error in making the game.

And I don't know: I play both ways and I never complained about anything.
Oppose this as you wish, you're too insignificant to me to ruin my fun with
MKD.

I'd say what's the point? Yeah, you could, but why bother?
It doesn't prove that you're any better than somebody who uses the best moves, just more stupid for deliberately increasing your chances of losing, if anything.

becouse if he can actually use those attacks and time them perfectly knowing how to utilize the engines behavior, he should have no risk in obliberating the enemy.

Plus, it looks good, becouse it is not the rehearsing of the same-old mo-ves used by everyone. And it leghtens the repay alue, becouse you won't geet tired of the ame sooner than most.

oh, and of course, when in a real fight, it comes handy to confuse the enemy, but I always stick with the most quickest and damamging attacks.
Thats why very move has to have it's own atributes. if the move is just a less damagin version of a same with larger and faster ..you get the idea, then there is no point in using it.

So let me get this straight...

Using more useless moves makes you a better player?

No. But you are a good player at one point if you can easily win with less efficient moves. Of course you could use powerfull ones, thats beter.

But the definition of a good player doesn't comes out just from how fast and how efficient can he/she play. Somebody can be good with the most powerfull moves, but if he can be easily outwitted by less effective moves than he/she needs to pactice more.

Another thing:

An example: in a strategic game (heroes of Might and Magic 3) you may use lesser monsters to destroy the more powerful ones:
the Gorgon is a level 5 monster, but has an attack that decreased/kill a certain amount of opponents despite their data/atributes/power dependin on how many gorgons you have. Since you get more lower level monsters than higher level ones, they can do more losses, since their numbers increase their lethality.
If an exact amount of Archdevils (level 7 monster) face the gorgons, the Archdevils may kill the gorgons, but suffer fatal losses. And they have to deal with other monsters as well.

The morale of the story is that each move should have it's own attribute to be worth using it. That is why i grew out of simple fighters like SF (though gret fun still). In MKD deception this dos not applies, since at least 2/3 of the moves are only good for finger jogging. A shame really.

Nevermind. There's no point.
Just do yourself a favour and read this a few times.

Hahahaha, Chamberlain as the scrub. That was under the belt hahaha!

Anyway, ben there done that. the guy who wrote that probably has no idea of others fun. And I especially loathe when people say to me you should not play games. Why not? A game is for entertainment and not "agressive" competition! A shame people can't tolerate others fun...

later.


Oh and about Chamberlain: this guy is pretty much an idiot if he thinks that Chamberlain considered the peace pact above the direct opposition to-wards Germany becouse of complete ignorance or accomodation. First of all he should examine the plotological backgro-unds of the situation befo-re he jumps to conclusions.

Krackerjack, all I'm saying is that with so many people out there, you can still find variety. Not everyone will have the same moves, especially if the MK team can, by some miracle, actually balance a fighting game. Yeah, some moves will be better than others, that's inevitable, but a majority of people will pick moves that they like, and not could potentially get them the victory. You have this strange vision of a million ninjas who all have the same everything. Either you think that MK fans are too smart (picking absolutely only the best moves) or too dumb (for not only picking the best moves). I think that there is a mix, and its enough of a mix to have enough variety. In a balanced MK game (if it ever exists), this variety only increases, pretty much negating your argument.

Yes, I know that fighting games have winners and losers, but that's just how it is. If I like my character that I built, and I lose to someone else, I don't immediately assume that my character is flawed because I don't have a certain move or style, I assume it's because that player, that time, was better than me. If they beat me enough, yeah, it won't be that fun for me, but I assume that they are better at this game than I am, and I really don't think that, in a balanced game (that is the key to all of this here) picking a few different moves or a different fighting style will all of a sudden enable me to trounce this guy who has been kicking my ass on a consistent basis. In a balanced game, this simply couldn't be the case. If I practice enough and get better, then yeah I'll probably be able to hang more. But just assuming that all of the defeats, in a balanced game, could come from moves and not skill is ludicrous.

Of course I know that balance is easier said than done in MK games, so no, I can't take this for granted. But the onus of balance falls on the MK team. I feel that my idea is valid if the game is balanced. If this is not the case, then I would be perfectly content with your idea of not being allowed to take created players online, just as long as we can all create the characters that we wish were in MK7, or characters that we wish existed but don't.

I know what you're saying, and yes, there would be variety - but not on the competitive side. There would be a lot of people with different moves, but the people I would only want to play would be the people who are playing the game to it's full potential. These people would use the best moves. If they didn't, then they wouldn't be playing the game to it's full potential (in other words they wouldn't be playing to win, although they'd think they were), and I wouldn't want to face them, because I would be playing the game to it's full potential, and i'd wipe the floor with them, you see?

Skill does come into it, but assuming you have two players of equal skill and knowledge, the player with the better moves is going to win every time.

The people who aren't playing the game to it's full potential (people who pick moves they like rather than moves that will help them win) aren't relevant. The people who are playing soley win to win are, because how good the game is depends on how much fun these people can possibly have. Anybody can make a game that caters for people who don't know what they're doing, don't want to know, and aren't playing competitively, but the real test of how good a fighting game is, comes in at high level play when the game is being played to it's fullest. This is why when it comes to the actual core gameplay, the opinions of high level players matter, and the opinions of 'casual players' don't.

Also, some notes about balance (this isn't all that relevant here, but you mentioned it a few times). 'Balance' is just an illusion. You can't have a truely deep fighting game that is fully balanced, because in order for a game to be naturally balanced, characters have to have an equal amount of moves with similar properties, thus playing exactly the same, removing all depth.

Example:
If each character has a move that launches, then each of those characters lauchers has to hit in the same spot (ie mid, high, etc), has to do the same amount of damage, has to have the same amount of disadvantage on block, etc. If one character has a launcher that is different to everybody else's, then that character is instantly either better or worse than all other characters, which unbalances the game.

Sure the animations might be different, and one characters launcher could be a punch while anothers might be a jumping kick, but they NEED to have the same properties in order for the game to be balanced.

Which brings me to my next point, which is that all characters have to have the same moves.
Now, you can't give one character a move with properties that another character doesn't have. This would of course instantly unbalance the game by making that character better or worse, creating two character tiers right from the get go.

So, we give each character an equal amount of moves with equal properties. Here's an example of a short move list for a couple of fictional characters, in a balanced game.

Peter:
Jumping knee (launches, hits mid, does 15% damage, -30 frames on block, 30 frame startup).

Left roundhouse kick (tracks left, does 25% damage, -15 frames on block, 25 frame startup, hits high, fall back stun on counter hit).

Right hook (tracks right, does 7% damage, -10 frames on block, 10 frame startup, hits high)

Body blow (does 20% damage, -25 frames on block, 25 frame startup, hunch over stun on counter hit, hits mid)

Backbreaker throw (throws high, 20 frame startup, escapable, unblockable, -20 frames when ducked)

Nicole:
Uppercut (launches, hits mid, does 15% damage, -30 frames on block, 30 frame startup).

Spinning backfist (tracks left, does 25% damage, -15 frames on block, 25 frame startup, hits high, fall back stun on counter hit).

Roundhouse elbow (tracks right, does 7% damage, -10 frames on block, 10 frame startup, hits high)

Left knee (does 20% damage, -25 frames on block, 25 frame startup, hunch over stun on counter hit, hits mid)

Dragon screw throw (throws high, 20 frame startup, escapable, unblockable, -20 frames when ducked)

(Note: please don't crucify me for my ridiculous properties, it's just a quick example guys )

Okay, now, those moves all have different animations so they look different, but you may have noticed they have the same properties, so both characters are going to play exactly the same, with the same combos etc. It NEEDS to be this way, in order to maintain balance, because if you give one character a move with properites another character doesn't, you've instantly unbalanced the game and given one character an advantage over the other.

This is why you could never have a balanced game, unless you wanted each character to play exactly the same.

Rather than asking for 'balance', people should be asking for specifics. Things like logical frame advantage, fliud animation etc.

Yeah we need some good humor like Friendships, not Bo Rai Cho ripping ass, thats pretty lame and childish. Friendships were awesome and hilarious at the same time.

Peace Out

-Ripped Clothing, and scarring to the body
-Impale button back
-Female boss/subboss (i love the idea of the Tanya being boss, that would rule)
-faster gameplay
-sack John Vogel (cloning shao kahn? WTF)
-giving one off characters a second chance [eg REIKO!, Fujin, Kai, Jerok, etc]
-Bringing back Shinnok revamped
-Male Vampire
-More male Edenians
-the game available for PC (Then you can make downloadable upgrades)
-more interactable backrounds [even the little things of tripping over rocks and such]
-making liu kang stay dead
-FMV videos [oh you cant afford it can you? oh look its a flashy sports car parked outside the midway studios, Ed Boon is getting into the flashy sports car? never!]
-Online gameplay
-Character design (not create a character tho, because obviously everyone will pick the best moves, best costumes, thus making it boring, but if you have like a costume update, designing your own favourite characters to a look that suits you, that would be great)

I will try think of more..

1: Test your might/sight
2: Create yur own character!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3: Animalalities
4:Online Kombat
5:Puzzle Kombat
6:Konquest(like the one in MK:D not MK:DA)
7:NO old villans (like Onaga, Shao Kahn,you get the point)
8: A new lead (NO MORE LUI KANG!)
9:Fatalitys (OF CORSE)
10: HARA-KIRI'S
11:More throws
12:KILL OFF:
Lui Kang
Johnny Cage
Dairou
Kabal
Kobra
Darrius
Lei Mei
Hortau
13:
BRING BACK:
MAVADO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sonya
Jax
Kitana
Mileena
Sindel
Frost
*there's alot more i just can't think of any more!