Boon already said it's not possible to change variations in one of his interviews. Go review his interviews if you don't believe.

I think it would be a bit OP because you could counter pick variation midfight. Or at least that's what I'm getting at from what I got from the title at least.

An interesting idea, but i dont see it happening

I've watched, read, re-watched, and re-read. I don't even see where the question has been raised.
It may not be possible, but I'm just speculating.

I take it that you never experienced a X-Ray combo attack that can ditch over 50% of health? You got to remember, if the victor banks on their meters, and the loser lost and choose a different variation. That player is fucked come Round 2 if your idea comes to be. We're talking guaranteed 75% fucked.
The point of variation switch is to keep things balanced, nerfing the loser due to poor variation match-up is not at all helping. Especially removing two meters which could be used for a combo break preventing such a pounding. I'm afraid I don't agree with you, sir.



I don't understand what you mean by that.



No different from counter picking during the "select character" screen.

The losing player is able to quickly switch to a different variation to get a chance of winning the next Round.
Even the victor of the round can change variations and still counter pick the loser if they're quick enough to catch onto it or they can just remain the same variation.

I personally think it brings balance to the match more than "Pick one variation, now you're stuck with that until you lose the match". It could definitely make the match interesting and fresh and keep players on their toes unless going against a player who studied them ALL.

If they were going to allow them to change variations mid-fight, there would be no point in the variations... They might as well give all the abilities to each character at once.

There will still be a point. But please explain why there will be no point to it?

I thought you were referring to counter picking as soon as the player realizes the variation wouldn't give the person an advantage without waiting till the next round.

The variations idea was incorporated to add diversity to the gameplay. Just like meter burning, variations are a way to mix up combat by adding another layer to a fight. Allowing someone to switch mid fight takes the idea a small step forward. How is it completely negating variations?

You would only have access to the different abilities of one variation at a time, and it would simply give you the opportunity to change your strategy keeping players on their toes.

If I decide that Scorpion has one good variation, an okay variation, and a terrible variation what point do the variations serve then?

People would just tell you to get better at them. And this is not meant to be crude, people will say that you're either not playing them correctly if you find a certain variation weaker than the others.

I found a character to be weak, and some found what I said to be wrong because they thought I wasn't playing them correctly.

I was providing an argument testing the 'validity' of variations for MKfan99.

If I feel Scorpion has one good variation doesn't mean there is no other point to the variations concept, because "insert your comment here"

Ahh, I see what you mean.

What if there were a tag team mode? If there were tag teams I'm sure some people would like to double select, and they wouldn't be able to pick the same variation. I'm stretching the idea as I don't even care for tag team mode, however if they brought it in here I'd assume it could work across the board.

I don't believe tag team has been confirmed as not happening. I know Boon said it wasn't as popular as they thought it would be so they may not bring it back.

I just want to hear a compelling argument against mid fight switches, because I think it's a brilliant idea! If it's not in initially i'd hope they patch it in or something. Its one of those things that I think people would use if it works for them and ignore if it doesn't. If both people can switch I just don't see where it would negatively effect the gameplay. Typically people appreciate more options than less...
It's making me think of Pokemon now.

@money I understand your point now. Before I thought you were saying switching variations mid match reminiscent of the stance button. Switch variations between rounds I think is your point, and i think your right, there shouldn't be any balancing issues because each player would be able to switch. I think this should be an option that can be switched on and off to the player's discretion.

As for a cost implication, I don't think it would need to be implemented since you arent switching variations mid match. If there was a variation-button for mid-match switching that would be a different story.

I thought that the different fighting styles back with MKDA-MKD was awesome. I loved pulling off the branch combos that go thru all 3 of the fighters stances. It was a different thing they tried and I thought it was pretty cool. I wouldn't mind if they'd let you go thru the variations during the fight, but then again, I wouldn't mind if you couldn't do it either. I'm happy either way.

I honestly think it would defeat the entire purpose of Variations in the first place. The whole point is to create a sub-game to the matchups; picking and counterpicking. Sort of like managing resources. Giving the player the ability to choose any/all resources would break down that sub-game. Having it be a Select Screen option greatly increases the stakes and tension. What are you going to bet with?

I think this a fantastic system NRS have gone with. It makes the player play smarter, instead of harder. OnTheFly Switching or even Mid-Fight Switching would infinitely weaken the strategic aspect of gameplay and the weight of that initial bet placed at the Select Screen.

Purpose breaks if you can switch between stances anytime. If it's just in changing round just makes it the most sophisticated system. Of course it would have been thought how to do. Should be some kind of combo and I think it would be fair to only loser (if that incidi against the winner when he loses he will have the same opportunity as we have a system of 3 rounds). There should be a button for that.

I would like the L and R Buttons Were thus:
R1 - Grab. R2 - Lock. L1 - Interaction. L2 - Tag Team. R2 + L2 = X-Ray.

!quote>
The point of variations is to add variety for a more immersive gameplay experience. I agree with you.

!quote>
Now how would this 'infinitely weaken' the strategic aspect of gameplay? Players will obviously not only be using the same thought processes when choosing their initial variation, but in determining which variation would be a better fit for the match if necessary as well. In this way players will be playing smart and the character switch provides a good opportunity for players to play their hardest. What is it detracting from gameplay?

!quote>
When you play to win the weight is the same from character select until the end of the match. It'd be really surprising to me if someone opted to switch a variation to help them lose.

The bottom line is that giving the player the ability to change Variations negates the appeal of the mechanic from a design perspective. It's like an MMO where you could switch Classes freely. That's not how the devs want you playing the game. They want you to choose a toolset and utilize the pros and cons of that specific toolset. Yes, selecting a character is doing that already. But the Variation system makes it far more interesting and requires more strategic, CONSIDERED gameplay. Switching freely would eliminate that need for strategy and consideration since you can just opt to choose later, then rechoose if you like. It's more like Chess now. Think about your move, plan your move, then make your move. After that, what's done is done and you play the board as it is.

Overall, this system will make for more considered, smarter matches, and I'm all for that.

At first it was negating the entire purpose and now its negating the appeal? MK plays completely different than an MMO, thats literally comparing apples and carrots.

My Scorpion A gets bested by your Sub Zero A, but based on how you played Sub Zero A, I believe I can beat him with my Scorpion B so I switch.

or my Scorpion A gets bested by your Sub Zero A, but based on how you played Sub Zero A, I believe I can beat him with my Scorpion B. You anticipate my switch and change to Sub Zero C. Those are two simple, smart, and considered strategies. Nothing eliminated.

It seems that you amongst others are arguing against an idea without considering what it offers. I'm not arguing against consideration and strategy coming into play while choosing a fighter. This same argument you present is making this into a debate of more or less limits(strategy). I think mid match switch idea is fairly solid and would make for interesting gameplay.

Let me ask a question in general.

How would both me and Moneyguy's idea make the Variation concept to be useless when MK Deadly Alliance and MK Deception already done this in some form of matter?

In relation to my proposal of bringing a Stance button back...

Be honest.
Did you use all three Fighting Stances in MKDA?
If you did, good for you.

I sure didn't.
I always used Scorpion's Hapkido.
I disliked Pi Gua.
And Ninja Sword was as accessible as his Hapkido Variation, excuse me, Fighting Stance.

Did the Fighting Stance concept seemed pointless to you then? If so, why?

Because after trying each Fighting Stance, you most likely said to yourself "I like this, I like that, but hated this." but it didn't bothered you because you had other Stances to fall back on. If anything is going to be pointless, by opinion, it would be one of the Variations you may dislike from that character because the other Variations where better for you to use in comparison.
With that said, you would be able to use two out of three at will. Why wouldn't you want to use two of your favorite variations at any time?

Although, after some thinking however, even though I already said it, but I do like Moneyguy's idea of an after round choosing. I now think it will be more balanced than a Stance button. Because imagine if the character had two OP variation versus a character that only had one good variation? Although I do believe this is something that will happen, but being able to choose one per Round would indeed make it more balanced compared to a button press switch. Thus, I'm liking Moneyguy's idea more than mine.

So, imagine MK Deadly Alliance with Moneyguy's idea.

You have Scorpion's Hapkido vs Sub-Zero's Dragon.

Scorpion's Hapkido variation easily beats Sub-Zero's Dragon variation (not stating a fact, just saying).

The loser switches Sub-Zero's Dragon Variation to his Shotokan Variation and the Scorpion player remains Hapkido.

Sub-Zero's Shotokan Variation turns out to be an even match against Scorpion's Hapkido, and the Scorpion player lost the round.

Scorpion player chooses to remain Hapkido due to how even the match was. Sub-Zero player remains Shotokan for the same reason.
X wins the match due to skill, not a Variation advantage.

Again, what's the problem here??

With MKX current design. Prepare to lose matches based on bad Variation match-ups, I have no doubts that this will happen. When you can have a better chance of evening the match with the ability to switch Variations after the Round.
If you still lose the match, then it's possibly due to skills or again a bad Variation match-up. Even though that will make two variations not good against just one character's variation, I say that's more of a developer's problem at that point.

But again, that's just a big assumption, I admit, and I hope I am so wrong.




I was going to say that but with oranges, but I just couldn't believe what I read and immediately closed the tab.

I guess I'm just not being clear enough. I wasn't trying to say that MK is like an MMO. I'm shocked that could be taken as a literal comparison. I was only using it to illustrate design approaches in general.

Clearly, we just have a difference of opinion. I agree with NRS that the approach they are now using with Variations is better and more interesting than Stance Switching or Variation Switching mid fight. NRS could have done that, but they obviously chose not to for a reason. I, for one, did not like Stance Switching so I'm glad it's not coming back. I think it took away a lot of what made MK feel like MK.

I like the idea of placing my bet up front on which build I'm going to use. I like the importance it puts on that decision. That's just me.

I see your points, however I dont think you can accurately use fighting stances to compare to variations. The fighting stance concept seemed pointless to me and Ill tell you why. MKDA-MKA it was a gimmick, in MKX variations are a mechanic. If you can't see the difference between fighting stances and variations then I shouldnt even bother trying to dispute the point.

There is a reason mortal kombat was not an official tournament game until MK9.. because the fighting mechanics sucked! Fighting stances only gave a false impression of depth to the game. The special moves never changed and the weapons were over-powered. Each fighting stance did nothing to change the dynamic of the character, they were just another thing to use.. a gimmick.

Now think about changing between things that are actually useful, well thought out, balanced, and strategic (variations) and put those all at your disposal. You break the intention of the system whose sole purpose is to separate these dynamics.

But anyway all that was for naught because mid post you said you agree more with moneyguy's idea; so I am basically ranting and raving at noone and nothing. Because moneyguy's idea could possibly work, it wouldnt change the dynamic of the game because the dynamic occurs during the round not between it. So picking a new dynamic before the round technically doesn't break the system. Again, this should be an option that can be switched on a off at the user's/tournament-holder's discretion.

But on a side note.. I never understood it when people say there are advantages to certain variations when put up against another certain variation. I have always found that SKILL is what wins a match not a variation or (in mk9) a character who "has another characters number". Never made sense to me just sounds like people wanting to whine and make excuses.

There was one character I couldn't beat in mk9 and that was johnny cage because of his stupid defensive xray that would get me everytime. which is completely my own fault.

There are three and not two alternatives to this debate:

- Power Stances swap anytime.
- Power Stances are exchanging between rounds.
- Not being able to swap stances.

The third is that this will be falendo MK. The First is the MKDA-MKD and do not want to come back. Now the second may be an evolution towards a future game.

I didn't take your example as an attempt to say 'Mk is like an MMO'. It read to me as 'This switching variations idea would play similarly to how class switching plays in MMOs' which is not the case. Two totally different types of games and the ideas while similar would come into play 100% differently.

The game is not out yet and there are still developments to come, who knows maybe NRS will wise up and we will see the mid match switching.


Exactly. The variations per character come differently. Every character wont have a weapon/zoning/defense form. How they handle this we will see.

I think to be in comparison you can. They are both in fact gameplay mechanics technically. Fighting stances proved to be ineffective in its execution. Like previously stated, fighting stances just dropped every character with a bunch of moves and a couple of combos(the best being the ones that linked every fighting stance). I think fighting stances also played better in MKA than in the earlier games.



Can't agree on this, because essentially you're saying the tiers don't exist. Skill definitely plays a huge factor; but some characters, as demonstrated by @TemporaryUserName's examples earlier in the thread, definitely have a clear upper hand because of the tools they have. That goes back to balancing and is no fault of the players.