Switching Variations Mid Fight

Mortal Kombat X

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posted08/20/2014 06:54 PM (UTC)by

moneyguy

@moneyguy

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02/18/2006 08:04 PM (UTC)

Not sure if this idea has been discussed, but what do you all think about it?

Ideally I would like to see this executed to keep up excitement during a match. If it were up to me, I'd enable it so that after one round has ended both players could perform an input that would change their character to one of the other variations before the second or third round begins.

When I imagine it I would want it to be executed in a similar way to that of the Kombat Kodes you could input before a match begins in previous MKs. It would have to be done fast and both players would have the opportunity to do it. Maybe there could be a setting that would change it to whichever player inputs it first Hara-Kiri style.

Anyway I think that this would keep things interesting during a fight. I like the variations idea, but it seems like if you play enough you'll know exactly what to anticipate especially since the variations are listed above each characters name during the fight. I would've enjoyed it more if the left the variations of the names out of the fight, leaving it up to the players to notice the differences in character models/moves and figuring it out themselves.

lastfighter89

@lastfighter89

•08/06/2014 05:48 PM (UTC) •

I am afraid it will not possibile for several reasons:

1) gameplay wise the idea is useful for tournament and high level games, in order to make match ups harder, because you have to know not only the character, but also his/her variation. And counter the match up is possible only during the select screen, unless hidden select.

2)switching mid fight will remind of Deadly Alliance/Deception change fighting style, which was cool back then, but had bad reception from the overall players. At least, that I remember.

3)Some variations have huge aesthetics differences like sunglasses, medallions and different light effect according to the chosen variation. Switching between them could cause some problem in loading such items mid-fight.

4) in order to switch variation you should use a button, and it seems that the "change stance" button from MK9 will come back. Never understood the usefulness of this.

Jaded-Raven

@Jaded-Raven

•08/06/2014 05:51 PM (UTC) •

It has been already been confirmed that it will not be something you can switch mid-fight.

moneyguy

@moneyguy

•08/06/2014 08:20 PM (UTC) •

Jaded-Raven Wrote:
It has been already been confirmed that it will not be something you can switch mid-fight.

Where?

thisiscourage

@thisiscourage

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•08/06/2014 08:27 PM (UTC) •

moneyguy Wrote:

Jaded-Raven Wrote:
It has been already been confirmed that it will not be something you can switch mid-fight.

Where?

Gameplay videos. plus you can listen to the way they describe variations; they have no intention of changing the way they are used.

The real reason it would be silly to incorporate is because of balance. I have discussed this before, (this same idea has appeared a couple times scatter in various threads) by using 3 different variations per character it makes NRS job easier when it comes to balance.

Instead of balancing (lets assume) 300 moves, your only balancing 100 moves at a time. Which goes a long way to make the game tighter.

Cordova21

@Cordova21

•08/06/2014 08:28 PM (UTC) •

Boon already said that this isn't going to happen.

WeaponTheory

@WeaponTheory

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•08/06/2014 08:44 PM (UTC) •

moneyguy Wrote:
Not sure if this idea has been discussed, but what do you all think about it?

Ideally I would like to see this executed to keep up excitement during a match. If it were up to me, I'd enable it so that after one round has ended both players could perform an input that would change their character to one of the other variations before the second or third round begins.

When I imagine it I would want it to be executed in a similar way to that of the Kombat Kodes you could input before a match begins in previous MKs. It would have to be done fast and both players would have the opportunity to do it. Maybe there could be a setting that would change it to whichever player inputs it first Hara-Kiri style.

Anyway I think that this would keep things interesting during a fight. I like the variations idea, but it seems like if you play enough you'll know exactly what to anticipate especially since the variations are listed above each characters name during the fight. I would've enjoyed it more if the left the variations of the names out of the fight, leaving it up to the players to notice the differences in character models/moves and figuring it out themselves.

I suggested a different way in this topic

http://www.mortalkombatonline.com/content/forum/showmessage.cds?id=152077

I suggested a button stance switch, there's no reason not to have this back.
But I kinda like your idea in terms of quickly switching it after the round. Whatever that would let me try more than one variation without leaving the match. But I learned to deal with it knowing that it won't happen.
You're so far the only person I've seen that also wants to play with more than one variation on the spot.

We should be able to select two out of three variations before the match starts and have the ability to switch between the two if we wanted in some form of matter. Whether during the round or after the round. I like to believe that would give more balance to the game. Because if you're stuck with one variation that can be out tiered by a certain character, than what chance do you have?

L-BowShot

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•08/06/2014 08:44 PM (UTC) •

I like the idea and i think they could pull it off. I can see for mk11 they end up doing that perhaps. But there could be downsides to the idea.... We will just have to wait probably 5 years to find out lol.

WeaponTheory

@WeaponTheory

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•08/06/2014 08:50 PM (UTC) •

L-BowShot Wrote:
I like the idea and i think they could pull it off. I can see for mk11 they end up doing that perhaps. But there could be downsides to the idea.... We will just have to wait probably 5 years to find out lol.

Or we can wait a year to see if this Variation concept works.
And if it doesn't, we may know why. Though Ed Boon has assure us that the Evo kids are testing this game out.

moneyguy

@moneyguy

•08/06/2014 10:10 PM (UTC) •

thisiscourage Wrote:
Gameplay videos. plus you can listen to the way they describe variations; they have no intention of changing the way they are used.

The real reason it would be silly to incorporate is because of balance. I have discussed this before, (this same idea has appeared a couple times scatter in various threads) by using 3 different variations per character it makes NRS job easier when it comes to balance.

Instead of balancing (lets assume) 300 moves, your only balancing 100 moves at a time. Which goes a long way to make the game tighter.

So you're assuming?
The point about balancing makes no sense. They already have to make sure all of the characters are balanced against one another. What difference would switching mid fight make?

WeaponTheory Wrote:

Or we can wait a year to see if this Variation concept works.
And if it doesn't, we may know why. Though Ed Boon has assure us that the Evo kids are testing this game out.

I agree with what you're saying now, and what you said previously in the other thread. I also believe they could pull it off. The balancing argument, MEH if they wanted to they could do it.

My main point with the idea is just that I don't like having the characters split 'three ways'. Whether they utilized the stance button or did something after the round that allowed you to switch without leaving a match I would like to have access to all of the features to the character. Seems to me like some variations are going to work better than others.

KingBellsprout

@TheNinjasRock071394

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•08/06/2014 10:27 PM (UTC) •

Set the game to 1 round fights and just keep 2 out of 3 scores in your head. Problem solved.

moneyguy

@moneyguy

•08/06/2014 10:30 PM (UTC) •

TheNinjasRock071394 Wrote:
Set the game to 1 round fights and just keep 2 out of 3 scores in your head. Problem solved.

Doesn't solve the 'leaving the match' nuance. It is a start though.

TemperaryUserName

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•08/06/2014 10:43 PM (UTC) •

moneyguy Wrote:
So you're assuming?
The point about balancing makes no sense. They already have to make sure all of the characters are balanced against one another.

That's... not true.

The most balanced fighting game of all time is still littered with 7-3 matchups. Ultra SF4 may be the most balanced game ever made, and most characters still have 3-5 bad matchups (some have more than 10).

There's no way around it. Diversity of styles means some toolsets are going to logically be superior to others. If we limit variations to the select screen, it will do wonders for balancing.

However, I might be okay with mid-match variation changes if it's incredibly resource heavy. Like, REALLY resource heavy. Make it cost two bars and 25% of your health.

Icebaby

@Icebaby

•08/06/2014 10:47 PM (UTC) •

You shouldn't.

I mean, I could never switch left-handed to right-handed while in mid-batting in softball, so why change during mid-fight?

Weird comparison, I know.

moneyguy

@moneyguy

•08/06/2014 10:54 PM (UTC) •

TemperaryUserName Wrote:

moneyguy Wrote:
So you're assuming?
The point about balancing makes no sense. They already have to make sure all of the characters are balanced against one another.

Maybe I am confused. In reference to this comment:

thisiscourage Wrote:

Instead of balancing (lets assume) 300 moves, your only balancing 100 moves at a time. Which goes a long way to make the game tighter.

I said that NRS will have to balance the characters against one another, which they will. What difference does it make if I can switch my character mid match?

If you pick War God Kotal and I choose Storm Lord Raiden, then I lose first round and switch mid match to Displacer Raiden what difference does balancing make? Assuming they did the best they could at balancing; either way they would've imagined this match up already, correct?

Obviously no game is perfect and there will always be errors.

MKfan99

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•08/06/2014 10:56 PM (UTC) •

If they were going to allow them to change variations mid-fight, there would be no point in the variations... They might as well give all the abilities to each character at once.

TemperaryUserName

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•08/06/2014 11:00 PM (UTC) •

moneyguy Wrote:
I said that NRS will have to balance the characters against one another, which they will.

They won't because they can't. Some matchups are just impossible to balance. For example, Kitana bodied Sub-Zero in MK9 because Sub couldn't deal her footsies in zoning.

But they couldn't buff Sub's assets because if they did, he would have bodied Johnny Cage worse than he already did.

They also couldn't nerf Kitana's assets because even though she beats Sub 7-3, she loses to Kenshi 7-3. If they nerf Kitana to the point where the Kitana/Sub matchup is 5-5, she would get destroyed by Kenshi even worse than before.

Balancing every variation to be no worse than 6-4 just isn't realistic. Even if it was possible, there isn't enough time or resources to do it. After 4 years of balancing SF4, Capcom still hasn't perfected that game's balance.

moneyguy

@moneyguy

•08/06/2014 11:16 PM (UTC) •

Icebaby Wrote:
You shouldn't.

I mean, I could never switch left-handed to right-handed while in mid-batting in softball, so why change during mid-fight?

Weird comparison, I know.

Haha. I mean if you knew how and thought that it'd help, why not? I probably wouldn't hunt a duck with a bow, instead I'd probably switch that for a shotgun.

MKfan99 Wrote:
If they were going to allow them to change variations mid-fight, there would be no point in the variations... They might as well give all the abilities to each character at once.

Sounds like variations might be unnecessary then.

TemporaryUserNameWrote:They won't because they can't. Some matchups are just impossible to balance.

Maybe you're taking what I said too literally. When I say they 'have' to balance the characters I meant they obviously will take measures to make the characters as 'balanced' as they can. Again, no game will be perfect and you provided excellent examples of that. However you still haven't cleared my point.

What difference does balancing make if I can switch mid match from Storm lord Raiden to Displacer Raiden in this case?

Take the variation idea as we have it now. You have 3 forms of Raiden and 3 forms of Kotal Kahn. Assume NRS will attempt to balance this as best possible within the 9 possible match-ups. Now add the mid match switch idea, and you still have 9 possible match-ups. How is the balancing argument even coming into play?

Mobster_For_SATAN

@Mobster_For_SATAN

•08/06/2014 11:19 PM (UTC) •

That defeats the whole purpose of choosing a variation in the first place. Holy fuck...come on!

moneyguy

@moneyguy

•08/06/2014 11:31 PM (UTC) •

Mobster_For_SATAN Wrote:
That defeats the whole purpose of choosing a variation in the first place. Holy fuck...come on!

I think it makes the variations less limiting, therefore enhancing the concept. Bye Felicia!

TemperaryUserName

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•08/06/2014 11:31 PM (UTC) •

moneyguy Wrote:
What difference does balancing make if I can switch mid match from Storm lord Raiden to Displacer Raiden in this case?

Take the variation idea as we have it now. You have 3 forms of Raiden and 3 forms of Kotal Kahn. Assume NRS will attempt to balance this as best possible within the 9 possible match-ups. Now add the mid match switch idea, and you still have 9 possible match-ups. How is the balancing argument even coming into play?

Okay, I think I follow you better now. I would still say it leads to balancing issues because if the character can now change variations without penalty during the match, we're now dealing with characters who have unhindered access to the tools of all 3 variations.

So speaking hypothetically, let's we have Sub vs. Raiden. If Raiden has access to one option in any of his three variations that trumps the sum of Sub's options, do we nerf Raiden's best option, or do we buff Sub's tools? Doing either can tilt match-ups across the roster because now instead of balancing Raiden's 3 current options against Sub's 3 current options, we're balancing Raiden's 7-9 options against Sub's 7-9 options. A blanket of possibilities has just been added to the already challenging task of balancing.

That's why It think the variation system is such a good idea. They can now balance toolsets within specified perimeters.

But again: if there's a penalty for changing variations and the change actually costs something, that might work.

moneyguy

@moneyguy

•08/06/2014 11:40 PM (UTC) •

TemperaryUserName Wrote:

...

Haha thanks for dealing with my explanations. That is what I figured. I hadn't previously thought about the 'switch-up' costing anything, which I think is an excellent idea to keep things fair. I just think that the variations alone as they are will prove limiting, but we will see.

WeaponTheory

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•08/06/2014 11:59 PM (UTC) •

TemperaryUserName Wrote:
Balancing every variation to be no worse than 6-4 just isn't realistic. Even if it was possible, there isn't enough time or resources to do it. After 4 years of balancing SF4, Capcom still hasn't perfected that game's balance.

I don't think they ever will until they give all characters the same frame properties. Then fix the damage outputs (again and again).
Seems like a simple fix. Not because it's hard.
They need to stop with the Slow. Fast. Weak. Strong character bullshit and make them all even out.

TemperaryUserName Wrote:
So speaking hypothetically, let's we have Sub vs. Raiden. If Raiden has access to one option in any of his three variations that trumps the sum of Sub's options, do we nerf Raiden's best option, or do we buff Sub's tools? Doing either can tilt match-ups across the roster because now instead of balancing Raiden's 3 current options against Sub's 3 current options, we're balancing Raiden's 7-9 options against Sub's 7-9 options. A blanket of possibilities has just been added to the already challenging task of balancing.

Then you balance the rest of the roster along with them.
You balance them all until they are all equal to each other as close as possible.
Problem?
You don't just quit because "Ah fuck the balancing is too hard I guess Raiden and Subz will be top tier!". If this is a difficult task to them then the Variation concept was a failed idea, because it comes with the territory with such an idea.

moneyguy

@moneyguy

•08/07/2014 02:12 AM (UTC) •

^^ Agreed.

I am still interested in someone informing me of where it's been declared that this idea is not happening.

This talk has me feeling like it's quite possible.

balkcsiaboot

@blacksaibot

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•08/07/2014 02:21 AM (UTC) •

Switching Variations Mid Fight = accessible via Test Your Luck / Challenge Tower

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