and for the street fighter 3 coming when 3d games were popular argument.

3d games are more popular now than ever and sf4 has SOLD WELL. i dont know about tekken 6 and vf5.

example:some people say that the reason music artist are not selling cds are because of the bad economy and illegal downloads. they say music listeners have chaged from cd player to mp3. mp3 is now POPULAR. all that is true but, lady gaga came out in 2008 when cd sales and the economy were bad and they have sold well.(8 mill copies). others have did it too.

moral of the story-
If your product is great PEOPLE WILL buy it. the case with sf3 is that they did not have all of the CLASSIC fighters. they had the Icons, but where were the rest of the classics????? you see their is a difference in icons and classic fighters!!!! icons cant hold up the franchise by themselves, they are just popular and people notice or remember them real quick.

and 2d games dominate the evo playlist. casual and pro players still love 2d. and vf5 tk6, and sc4 are GREAT and POPULAR 3d games.

By all new characters, I do basically mean all new characters. No one from MKDA-MKA, and not necessarily any of the characters from MK1-MK4. I know that Boon said he would never get rid of Scorpion and Sub-Zero, and i'm fine with that, but I feel they should get rid of the characters, but keep the concepts. Let me explain.

I feel that Scorpion can still be a character, but a different story. For example, instead of having him a spectre, he can be a normal ninja, with whatever story they make up for him, and keep the concepts from his character. Instead of having the rope come out of his hand, have it wrapped around on his belt with the spear attached to it and he can throw it that way. Keep his teleporting, flame kick, etc. But take the concepts of Scorpion and just change them to make him a different character.

It's kind of hard for me to explain in words.

I dunno, Grimm. Again, I'm worried that that means we'll just be getting a roster full of Kiras, Kobras, Tavens, Frosts, and Shujinkos. These are the types and quality of mirror image new characters we can reasonably expect from a new MK game, if the same team is still working on the series. Is that really what you want?

I think your going along the lines of a re-invention/re-imagination. I'm totally cool with that.....as long as the characters are based on old classic characters and they retain their names. It's the saturation of totally new+random characters that annoys me.

Yes I suppose it would be a re-imagining of the characters. However, the newer characters are just so different from the classic characters that we have all grown to love, that I think we don't give them a chance because of their differences. Out of all the new characters from MKDA-MKA, the only ones that I feel really fit the MK Universe are Drahmin, Frost and Havik. I don't necessarily like these characters, except for Drahmin, and I think that characters like Kenshi and Hotaru are great characters, they just don't fit the universe very much.

That's why I feel they should start over and re-imagine some classic characters.

Oh c'mon man, again you're making an argument without looking at the outlying factors. For starters, Street Figher 4 is the first SF game in HOW MANY YEARS?? The fact that the series is considered a classic in and of itself (you know, the king of the genre and all that).

You don't think that helped boost sales? The fact that fighting games are making somewhat of a come back? How about the fact that they showed off pictures of SF4 for what seemed like an eon. Street Fighter 3 was sort of slid in to the market through the back door.

Do you even remember Street Fighter 3 getting released? Do you remember a marketing campaign for it? A midnight opening at Gamestop? Tons of ads for it? No. Because no one cared about this game and it's not simply because it wasn't full of the same stupid roster that Capcom had been pimping out since the original Street Fighter 2 or Super Turbo Champion Hyper Edition or whatever.

Street Fighter 4 was going to sell well because of the nostalgia, I'll grant you, but even more so because of the timing, the marketing, the amount of time between games and the simple fact that no one actually thought that they'd make a new Street Fighter game. Everyone thought that Capcom had put the series out to pasture.

If you were a fighting game fan, and you all of a sudden saw that the most classic king of fighting games was making a shocking return to the gaming scene, you wouldn't be interested in that? Hell, I bought the game and I never even liked Street Fighter back in the day!

You repeat yourself too many times in different threads about iconic characters and 2d gameplay.

I've mentioned this numerous times, Mortal Kombat doesn't need to follow every other fighting game that's out there in the market. Just because Street Fighter hasn't done 3d, doesn't mean that Mortal Kombat needs to follow their roots. Despite game industries like to take ideas from other people and do different things with it in their hands, it doesn't mean that EVERY game industry needs to do so. If Mortal Kombat starts acting like Tekken or Street Fighter, they're doomed, whether or not those two series are very popular. Here's the thing, they're two different fighting games. Mortal Kombat is a different fighting game, they do not need to start acting like Mortal Tekken or Street Kombat. No, that's horrible.

Iconic characters can't hold up a franchise by themselves? Then that means that Liu Kang and Raiden won't be the two that saves Mortal Kombat then if that's how you put it.

You also say that pro and casual players know what games they love? How do you know what pro players know when you stated on a different thread that you're not a pro gamer. So how would you know what we're like? I declare myself as a pro gamer, I've collected every single MK game Midway had to offer, I've played all the MGS and so and so on... yet, I don't declare 2d games better than 3d. Yes, MK back in 2d was great, but I wanted more... Do not talk for others when you do not know what they're like, as in me.

Game systems are getting better and better these days, why go back, way back, and bring something that has not been featured in the last 5 games?

So, yeah... I'm going to bed now cause it's late.

Xia is, as always, correct. And to Big Syke, I would like to direct you to Baraka's post, as he pretty much nails it. I'd also like to point out that besides the timing, publicity and the naturally big stir a new Street Fighter installment causes helping its case -- video games themselves are going through a nostalgia phase. That doesn't mean every game needs to be a throwback -- but you see it with New Super Mario Bros. and a return to 2D for a lot of classic gaming franchises (mainly on Nintendo).

There are essentially two directions to take gaming right now -- you can either give it a "classic video game" feel; or you can make it the "cinematic experience" that an Uncharted, Metal Gear Solid or Heavy Rain. Mortal Kombat, in my opinion, should move in the cinematic direction. With a good story, beautiful graphics and a smart fight engine; Mortal Kombat could become a real hit again. But that being said, if they did a bit of a spin-off in classic MK 2D with a roster unlike we have ever seen before, then I think that could be a great downloadable game, or second disc bonus for a special release, or something like that.

I'll agree with that whole heartedly. When I think of a 2D MK, there's only two was to do it: The classic, digitized look or the hyper-stylized cartoon look that Street Fighter 4 has.

To me, if it's the former, it's downloadable content or a pack in disc and nothing more than that. To me, there's NO way that, after doing 4, Gold, DA, D, A and MK vs DC that the next ACTUAL game in the series could go back to the old digitized look of the first 3 games and not look horribly stupid.

You'd basically be advocating that you want MK to be something that hasn't been popular since the mid 90's. 2D fighting games are a niche market even by fighting game standards.

You really want MK to go in this niche direction along with the Guilty Gear franchise? I'm not so sure that would help the franchise's bottom line.

I mean what, you think that they can make BETTER looking digitized characters? I seriously doubt it. So basically you'd be asking to go back to an art style that wasn't even that great looking by the time they stopped doing it about 15 years ago. Look at that number again... FIFTEEN YEARS, man. How many game series look to what they did 15 years ago and say "hey, yeah... Let's go in that direction."

Maybe the Resident Evil team should scrap Resident Evil 4 and go back to the prerendered backgrounds and tank controls...

Again, this direction is not a good idea and not a sales behemoth by any stretch of the imagination.


Of course, if it's the latter, and MK gets this BEAUTIFUL 2D art style with 3D backgrounds and super detailed characters, well again, there's 2 problems.

1) This has NEVER been MK's style. It's either been digitized or 3D. That's it. The "make it 2D but make it gorgeous" argument is contradictory to what MK has always been. MK is digitized graphics and hyper realism. Even when they switched to polygons, they've always tried to have a realistic looking game. Not some silly cartoon crap.

2) I'd rather bounce over hot coals using my face as a pogo stick than see MK emulate SF4 in appearance. MK is NOT Street Fighter. I'll say that again... MK IS NOT STREET FIGHTER.

You keep bringing up Street Fighter 4 as an example of 2D done right, but you know what? Street Fighter is an abberation. They're the outlier. They're the king of the genre, returning to nostalgia-hungry fans after what I believe is a 8 or 9 year layoff and considering that most thought the franchise was dead, it sold well because again, it's Street Fighter, it's nostalgia and it was worth the LONG wait.

MK would NOT have those things going for it.

So then what exactly ARE you advocating in this whole "I want 2D" argument? If we've already established that the gorgeous 2D cartoon visuals aren't MK's style and digitized graphics is horribly outdated, then what would make sense about going 2D again?

Well, why does 2D HAVE to be cartoony? How about a realistic-looking 2D fighter? I agree digitizing is outdated, but there are plenty of other methods to make a 2D fighter look rediculously realistic. That's one of the things I didn't care for ever since MK4 was that MK, by default of going 3D, took on a much less realistic look than its predecessors. If they could pull off a realistic looking game, 2D or 3D, I would love it.

I'm not sure how we're defining "classic" here, but if classic means MK1-MK3 era, then yes, at least half the cast should be "classic."

The one thing the franchises shouldn't do is reset the roster completely. The ratio of good to bad regarding the newest MK characters is pitiful, and I have no faith that a completely new set of characters would do anything but harm the series.

If that does happen, then best case scenario we'll get a lackluster cast; worst case scenario we'll get a handful of Tavens that we'll have to phase out slowly over the sequels until they all return in one large shit storm called Mortal Armageddon Trilogy Part fucking 3.

As far as an entire game of Kiras, Kobras, etc. goes, I don't think that those are necessarily horrible characters. They are horrible characters in that MK universe. They didn't fit in at all, and that's why I feel that none of the characters after MK4, except for maybe Kenshi, succeeded. Putting Dairou among characters like Sub-Zero, Quan Chi and Kung Lao is like putting a white person in an African American Culture class. No racism is intended by that comment, but they just don't fit in exactly.

That's why I feel that they need to start over with MK and re-imagine the series. None of the new characters will ever fit in.

I dunno about that. Someone made the argument recently that if Kobra had come out in MK1, he'd probably be considered one of those "classics" by now and honestly, based on his look and move set, I'd probably agree.

Sure, by today's standards, he's boring, his moves are dull and he looks like a lame rip off of the bad guy in the Karate Kid crossed with Ken from Street Fighter. But if he'd come out back then? Back when Street Fighter was at its height? People would've thought that he was awesome and MK's answer to Ken. He'd probably be one of the "main" characters right now.

I'm just saying that alot of these characters need time to develop. I'll grant you that the MK team did no service to alot of these characters by stealing moves, animations, specials etc from other characters and tacking them on to the new ones, but I still think that a lot of it has to do with initial gut reaction versus years upon years of time spent getting used to a character.

I mean sure, my initial gut reaction to MK3? I thought that the characters were HORRIBLE. A native american from the village people, the bride of frankenstein, two predators in what look like spandex pants and catcher's chest plates, a female Goro and Kabal.

For the longest time Kabal was the ONLY character that I liked from MK3, even if he had average moves and terrible fatalities. I hated that game for removing Baraka, Scorpion and Rayden while adding some of the goofiest looking losers I'd ever seen in a fighting game.

But honestly? After a while, alot of them have grown on me. Cyrax and Sektor, Sheeva and her skin rip fatality, even Nightwolf (and I REALLY hated his character design originally).

My point is that by having more time, more games to appear in, a more developed story and background, I think that a lot of the new characters have potential.

Of the MK:DA new batch, I really liked Kenshi, Li Mei, Mavado and Drahmin. I thought that Nitara and Frost had some potential and Hsu Hao? Well, every game from MK3 on has it's share of hits and misses in my book. Bo Rai Cho? Well, get rid of the farting and the puke and I'd be cool with him.

As far as MK:D: I liked Kira's design, even if they messed up her move list. Same goes for Kobra and Havik. Hotaru, Darrius and Ashrah all have some potential, even if I'm not huge in to their stories. Dairou and Shujinko are the big fails for me in this game.

So yeah, I'm not saying that every character is gold, but I at least see the potential. I honestly didn't even like Cage, Sonya and Kano in the first game right away. Same goes for Baraka and Mileena in the second game.

I wouldn't say that the ratio is pitiful. I'd honestly take Kenshi, Li Mei, Mavado, Kobra, Hotaru and Ashrah over "classics" such as Nightwolf, Cyrax, Sektor, Sheeva, Sindel and Stryker any day of the week.

So I have faith in the MK team. I wouldn't have said that right after MK:DA came out, when I thought that most of the characters were junk, but having a few more games under their belts for some of them has helped and I can still see the potential in the ones that haven't.

I'm honestly at a point where I can say that while yes, they'll probably have a Dairou or a Stryker or a Hsu Hao in the next game, they could also come up with some really cool ideas if they weren't hamstrung in to putting minor characters like Mileena or Reptile in their 20th game.

Keep the mascots, but give me some new characters and something fresh to play. If MK vs DC told me anything, it told me that I like alot of those old characters, but they've had their time in the sun for just long enough. I'd never say "they should be banned forever" because they are good characters, but a VERY large majority of the MK universe could benefit from taking a few games off and letting some new blood take the spotlight for a while.

Stryker a classic? Lmao....he's still one of the most hated mk characters. The only semi-memorable character that came out of mk3 was Kabal....and they kinda screwed him up in MKD.

how come some of you guys think if kobra was in mk1-mk3 he would automatically be a classic fighter?? all of those fighters from mk3 are not classic most are great.

you have no proof. just your speculation of opinions. anybody can play the "if game" all day.

I can see how he's classic... he's classic by being one of the crappiest characters in a franchise while being one of the hardest characters to beat in MK3... Just like Kabal.

Well, let's see...

Kobra is based on Johnny Lawrence, from Karate Kid....just like Liu Kang is based on Bruce Lee. And Johnny Cage is Jean Claude Van-Damme. And Sonya Blade is based on Cynthia Rothrock. And Raiden is from Big Trouble in Little China.
Basically, just another martial arts movie reference in a parade of movie references.

And once again, this is back in MK1...so he would've been played by a digitized actor. So, he'd probably would've looked even more like Johnny Lawrence...eg, a blonde guy in a black/white karate gi....and people probably wouldn't have even made the Ken connnection; despite the fireball attacks.

Story...probably something like this: Kobra is a psychopathic martial artist who entered the Mortal Kombat tournament to prove he is the most brutal fighter in the world.
Right next to Johnny Cage, the movie actor who entered the tournament to prove he was a legitimate martial artist. And Kano, the Black Dragon thug who entered the tournament because he wanted to rob Shang Tsung's palace. And Sub-Zero, a Lin Kuei assassin who entered the tournament to assassinate Shang Tsung. And so on.

Fits in like a fucking glove.

And he would've taken off along with the rest.
He would've appeared in the comics and trading cards. They probably would've built him up into a rival for Johnny Cage even....because what the fuck else has Cage got going for him, anyway? He would've been in the movie and the TV shows, and today he would be lauded as a "classic" and an icon, and people would be defending him as one of Mortal Kombat's defining characters.

I guaran-fucking-tee it.


Kobra Kai never die!

you have some good points and you have very good argument. still just speculation though, no proof.

just because things work for others does not mean it will work for you.

and kobra still looks alot like ken even if he was based off another character.

yeah i dont want mk to be CARTOONY. more like gears of war mixed with mgs4 graphics. you know a fantasy realistic look. we have the technology to do that.

and the nostalgic stuff is all opinion.

sf4 is PROOF that a 2d game can still be fun and sale at the same time.

I think Xia is exactly right. If Kobra had debuted back then, he would be considered "classic" and "bad-ass" today. I think Kenshi also had the visual style to debut back then and become a hit character instantly. As he debuted in Deadly Alliance, he is just taking a while to hit his stride. Bo' Rai Cho is another.

I think Kobra would have been deceptively big. Something you have to consider, regardless of Kobra's story, is the Western culture element he brings to the game. Street Fighter as Ryu and Ken. If Kobra had debuted in the original Mortal Kombat, you'd have Liu Kang (Eastern hero) and Kobra (perhaps a Western hero). If he started off as a dark fighter, more power to him -- his design makes him seem borderline heroic, so Kobra would have been one the first "this is how MK is different points." Instead of giving us a character we can get behind, we have a brutal psychopathic fighter who wants to kill everything.

If Raiden saw potential in him, and still became the mentor figure he was until very recently, then there could have been a whole storyline where Raiden tried to teach Kobra what it means to put his realm before his desires. MK3 actually could have been the first game where Kobra fought alongside the Earthrealm warriors, and it could have been an epic moment in the series. Dare I say it, it would have either helped or hurt Kung Lao by bumping him out of the sidekick role, and forcing his individual storyline to develop.

Aren't you guys kind of assuming a bit much about how much players actually care about the MK1 characters? I don't think anyone but maybe Boon himself would give a damn if we never saw Goro or Johnny Cage again (maybe even Kano and Sonya). The in-game appearances for Cage in particular have been terrible almost across the board, and I don't see him being bandied about as one of the classics by anybody. If the first MK movie had never come out, do you really think there'd be a single fan of his out there? I also don't see any petitions to have Liu Kang back, even if he was a likable enough character. From what I can tell, any list of "classic" characters is far more likely to resemble the cast of MK II.

If Kobra had come out back then, he'd sink or swim on the strength of his character just like anybody else. But even if he'd fail with fans, I don't doubt for a minute we'd be seeing him over and over and over again anyway. That trend has certainly borne itself out.

I find myself agreeing with Grimm that my not liking Kobra has less to do with his character than the fact that he's completely worthless to any story that doesn't have Kira and the Black Dragon, and vice versa for her. If he'd come out in MK1 he'd have been far less pointless because of the small roster and the focus on Earth rather than the other realms and almost certainly would have developed into a worthwhile character over time, far moreso than Johnny Cage did. So, sure, I'll buy that he could have become a classic, but not just because of some disparaging argument that we'd all start looking back on him with rose-colored glasses. Give the fans some credit, damn.

I disagree. There already was a western hero, Johnny Cage. Also Kobra looks so much like Street Fighter's Ken that they would probably have to change his look. So no matter what time period you put him in he is going to be out of place, and unwanted.

and what about quan chi. he came in on mk4 and hes verging on classic status. its been about over ten years since he was released. i think he gets promotion from great to classic.

the problem is the mk team got lazy. 95% of mk4-mka new fighters suck.

Johnny Cage was a western hero by default, not because of any definitive movement in that direction for him. Kobra being in MK1, with an ammended storyline, of course, would have forced Johnny Cage down into a more recessive comedy storyline. Cage would have stuck around embracing his comedic relief status more obviously (as the goof who never gets killed), or he would have been knocked out of the story completely fairly early, in my opinion.

And no doubt Kobra would have had a different look. No doubt that there would be people bitching about him still today. Xia and I would probably both be saying that his story is stale, he's done everything he can do, and he needs to either die or retire in the storyline. But there is no doubt in my mind that there would be a group of people, probably the same that are talking shit about him now, saying "woa man! u cant get rid of kobra! he is a classic! story doesnt matter in fighters neway. it is all bout fightin and moves and fatalitiez."

I was not part of the boards when Xia was, but I do remember MK3 being the "bastard stepchild" of the MK universe. But now there are more and more people fondly remembering that game. There are still those who are opposed to the cybernetic ninjas, don't get me wrong; but there are more and more people craving a next-gen appearance by Sektor, Cyrax or robo-Smoke. I do remember MK4's characters getting a lot of criticism, but now there are more and more people who are lovin' on Quan Chi, Reiko and hell, even Tanya (who was DESPISED, as I recall).

XD's observations are well-founded, in my opinion. As we get older, we look back more fondly on even characters we hated. Were the originals so much better than the newer characters? I would like people to explain to me how Nightwolf is a better character than Mavado, for example. Not why you like him more, and without using words like "cooler" and that sort of thing. Nightwolf's story is that he is a Native American protecting his land. Mavado is seemingly a brilliant strategist who infiltrated Earth's elite forces, planted a mole, erradicated his enemy via Earth's government, destroyed their facilities, and despite being a "lowly human" managed to strike up a deal with two beings of immense supernatural power, who accepted Mavado as an ally based solely on his mental capacity.

Mavado represents many things in the game, but out of every character in the MK universe, I think he represents "the mind" most of all. I mean, as far as plotting and such goes. Nitara and Quan Chi are the only ones who leap out as such successful schemers. Perhaps Shinnok, given his MKA story. What's interesting about those names, is that they were ALL introduced post-MK3.

I think people just love clinging to the "sacred cows" (as XD calls them), and that the MK Team needs to be more confident with their new creations. I do think that new characters could be improved, don't get me wrong, but I'm also willing to give them a chance, because there SO MUCH potential there.

I hate to double-post, but I agree with this to some degrees. I think doing this with some characters could be a fatal blow. I mean, in the "Should they return" thread, people are currently bitching about Jarek being a Kano rip-off. Granted, if it is done widespread, then it may be more accepted.

Anyway, my point is, there are some concepts within the MK universe that can be adapted to create new characters. For example, if the MK Team wanted to bring back the "iconic" visual of the Shokan -- they can just introduce us to a new playable Shokan character. He can have some new moves, a new story, but essentially be a direct throw-back to classic games. Some may be pissed off that he is not Goro or Kintaro, but let's face it -- they ended up with shitty stories. This is sort of a compromise.

Another concept that I can see lifted and given to a new character with far more potential, is that of the bladed-warrior. Currently Baraka has blades due to the genetic nature of the Tarkatan race. I say wipe them all out, and bring in a new character who has blades, perhaps articifially, attached to their costume (still retractable). This way they can have an awesome story, and still bring in that gameplay element people love about Baraka.

If there are elements that are transferable to new characters, without them seeming like "rip-offs," then I think it could give a lot of new characters a sublimenal classic feel. For example, one character I could see: A female with a scar down her face. Perhaps beauty would not be her ultimate goal or anything, but the idea of flawed beauty is a theme that is there in "classic" MK character, Mileena. Give this new girl with the scar new moves, and her own story, and she could fit right in.

I just realised the similarities between the "Edenian female ninjas" and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (slight coincidences as far as naming, colour-coding and the use of weapons and how they match up to personality). Perhaps they could give us a new Edenian female wielding twin katana or something like that. She'd need a story, but as far as "classic" feel goes, she'd fit right in.

I think little mental associations and gameplay qualities are what often makes a character iconic in people's minds. Some of these can be lifted without some people even knowing, I am sure.