not to get off topic but COME ON icebaby. you going to tell me tom is not the first person you will think of when you talk about all the superbowls patriots won. i guess drew brees is not the hero to new orleans either for winning a superbowl after hurrican katrina. the quarterback has always been the leader of a football team. if the team wins they get too much credit if they lose they get all the blame because they are the leaders. turning liu to a zombie was stupid but people make mistakes. maybe they were trying to add to his story and thought that would be a good shocker. and zombies are cool and popular to alot of people but it does not fit a fighter in mk. and superman is an icon hero of dc but his some of his movies were messed up. im sure they didnt mean to mess up their icon's movie story either but like i said people make mistakes. im sure out of a thousand comics, some of the storylines are stupid to superman fans. by the way smallville is great!!! and if you guys notice subs and scorps are cliche too, whoa a Blue Ninja with ice powers, oh a Golden Ninja with fire powers. Fire vs Ice rival. all that stuff is cliche man. but they are ICONS. lol raiden is cliche too. a god that takes human form. oh and he has THUNDER,ELECTRIC POWERS. soo cliche. so even if you dont want to include liu kang, you still will have a cliche icon hero when it all boils down. PEACE!!

XiahouDun84 im curious to know who you think the icons of mk are because you say icons suck. why, because the mk team has not developed them??? well IF that is the reason, its not the fighter's fault its mk teams fault. or maybe they like them to be bland. idk!!!! you guys act like liu kang and scorp can write ther own stories.

That's not suppose to be Liu Kang. It's suppose to be a new hero that should look like that. And the pic is just random when I typed in "leather latino" in google. lol

Yes, off topic indeed. No, I do not think of Tom with all the superwbowls they 'won". Nope, I don't think about the faktriots without good ol Bellichuck. Because of his genius idea, he's the reason why the faktriots won all those superbowls. (I am a Bears fan I could care less about this team) And New Orleans after hurricane Katrina, just Drew Brees? You're going to give him the credit? Not the team? Not the coaches? That's horrible.

And nope, I still don't see Liu being an icon. And the cliche, my god you cannot make any less sense right there.

now you are swicthing topics. im talking about players. not coaches. thats like saying ed boon is an iconic fighter, umm no hes the co creator, hes not in the fighting game. you cant compare ed boon with scorpion and subzero. we are talkimg about iconic Fighters ONLY remember, not members of the staff, same with football.

and how was the cliche thing confusing. oh cause i trapped you thats why. go ahead and admit it. subzero and scorpion are typical characters you have seen since games were made. ninjas, with some type of power. the power usually cordinate with there color. blue for ice, gold yellow for fire. the fire and ice ninja always fight. (xmen pyro vs ice man, just with mutants) every game has that ninja or karate guy, its soo cliche. and raiden is like Zues. god of thunder and lightning. cliche. its has been done so many times. so in the end your iconic fighters are cliche just like liu kang(bruce lee), which was one of the reasons you guys did not like him.

i dont have a problem with them, but you guys are making it sound like sub,scorp,and raiden are so much advanced complexed characters, when they are clearly not!!!

i mean if you dont know that ninjas with ice powers, fire powers, and gods with thunder powers are cliche, WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN??? its been done many times and many years ago. lol

did you watch ninja assanssins, (ninjas with powers. COOL!!!!).... so cliche.

You didn't trap me, stop thinking that you're always right because you're not. You're confusing me because you're adding more characters into this when this is thread is clearly talking about Liu Kang, getting off topic and talking about football, Razor was right, it's hard arguing against you because you can't stop to think for one minute and believe someone other than yourself is right for once.

Raiden is NOT like Zeus. Oh, he's got lightning powers, big deal. He's not Zeus. Ninja Assassins sucked, cliche this cliche that... WHO CARES!!!

alright so then if you dont care about subs and scorps being cliche. you should not care about liu kang being cliche. discussion over!!! im not always right, but i bring facts to the table, when other people dont.

i did not get off topic. i used footabll as an example, and sombody said you guys said scorp,subs raiden were iconic fighters insteads of liu. so im trying to explain to you that subs,scorp and raiden are cliche and really not that original.

and if you dont see where raiden is cliche then, you should not on here. you must be out of your mind!!!! gods with thunder powers are so cliche.
PROOF: whoa thunder gods are really OLD and CLICHE!!!!!!!! lol (more of them too)

THUNDER GODS!!!! (drum roll!!!!) lol(from wikipedia)

Brontes (Greek mythology)
Jupiter, Summanus (Roman mythology)
Taranis (Pan-Celtic); Ambisagrus, Leucetios, (Gaulish mythology)
Þunraz (Germanic mythology; Anglo-Saxon Þunor, German Donar, Norse Þórr)
Thor (Norse mythology)
Perkunos (Balto-Slavic; Lithuanian Perkunas, Slavic Per(k)un )
Perendi (Albanian mythology)
Gebeleizis (Dacian mythology)
Zibelthiurdos (Thracian mythology)
Ukko or Perkele (Finnish mythology)
Horagalles (Sami mythology)
Indra, Parjanya (Hindu mythology)
Aplu (Etruscan mythology)

Wow, someone certainly likes to get worked up about this... Especially from getting your sources from an unreliable website such as Wikipedia.

And Raiden is an Elder God, big difference between God and an Elder God. Fujin is a God, not Raiden. Raiden is an Elder God... So, you're little debate about Raiden and the Gods is just bologna.

Raiden WAS an Elder God. Briefly. Between MK4 and MKDA. He renounced that position to come back among the mortals and fight the Deadly Alliance.

elder god hahaha. so elder god is supposed to be the top gods right. well thunder gods in mythology are the top/ head gods. its all the same, because common denominator GOD and THUNDER. i will not discuss this topic about whether raiden or subs is cliche because its very clear they are.

LIU KANG WINS. FLAWLESS VICTORY!!! lol

Wow, so I was wrong, you need to shove that further into my face, kid? I guess you lied to me when you said that you don't like to be a little cocky because that right there was pure cockiness.

But fyi, Titans in Greek Mythology are bigger than Gods, do not test my knowledge with Greek Mythology kid, I know that way more than you. Despite Zeus is the "top god," he's far less superior than a titan.

BIG_SYKE19

What else is there to say at this point?

Raijin (雷神, raijin?) is a god of thunder[1] and lightning in Japanese mythology. His name is derived from the Japanese words rai (雷, meaning thunder) and shin (神, god). He is typically depicted as a demon beating drums to create thunder, usually with the symbol tomoe drawn on the drums.

Raijin is sometimes credited with eating the navels or abdomen of children, and in the event of thunder, parents traditionally tell their children to hide their navels so that they are not taken away. Raijin's companion is the demon Raiju.

Raijin is also known by the following names:

Kaminari-sama: kaminari (雷, thunder) and -sama (様, a Japanese honorific)
Raiden-sama: rai (雷, thunder), den (電, lightning), and -sama
Narukami: naru (鳴, thundering/rolling) and kami (神, god)
In Japanese art, the deity is often depicted together with Fūjin, the wind god.

Raijin is a well-known deity and his fame has spawned characters in many forms of Japanese media. He is often mocked, for example in an episode of Kyorochan. In the West, Raijin entered pop culture in the fighting game Mortal Kombat, which contained a character called Raiden

so i guess i am stupid huh. the facts will prove that im actually the smartest person on this thread. you guys just will not admit that scopion and subzero and raiden ARE NOT ORIGINAL. they are cliche character based off others just like liu kang. you guys get to personal. i can dig up facts all day. so keep calling me stupid while i hand you facts now we will see who is stupid. alright i will not test your knowledge on greek mythology. but im trying to say zues was the leader out of the GODS. and that was a nice video.lol good thing i have a sense of humor and wont get offended like some people. i hope you guys know that im having sooo much fun. you alll take this mk stuff to serious. its just a game so please dont let me get you mad because im just joking. but it probably does not seem like that because you can not convey emotion over the internet!!!! i dont want you thinkin you are my enemy or some stupid junk like that OVER A VIDEO GAME. i just want a good mk game just like you do. PEACE!!!

First of all, you got your facts from wikipedia, therefore you're not so smart because anyone and I mean anyone can edit that site. Does anyone understand that? Because wikipedia can be edited by anyone, basically I can change something on a page you look at and make you feel less intelligent because that info got change... So, yeah...

You're not the smartest person on this thread, you're basically the whiniest to be honest. You're the one getting overworked about topics that aren't about Liu Kang anymore. You brought in cliche crap, the faktriots, and now Gods... Some genius you are if you can't stay on one topic. And yes, I will say that because you started insulting people first, whether or not you insulted everyone who debated against you or not. Still, and I find that "retarded' phrase very offensive as I know someone who's mentally challenged.

No duh ZEUS is the leader, no duh.

And not to mention, this website is dedicated to a freaking game, so why you're making everyone feel like they have nothing to do with their lives outside this site is something I don't understand. I'm a freshmen in college, I only go on this site when I have spare time, and spare time doesn't come that easy anymore now. If you can't have a serious discussion about something that's going on in this site, then why bother putting your two cents in anyways? Just because people give out as much stuff they do when they're debating back at you, doesn't mean they have no lives because they're descriptive and know what they're talking about. They're debating against you, you want a debate, so they're giving you one. While you're mocking them because they're giving you such a hard time with their knowledge because they know more than you, it just shows that you cannot handle a debate class. Insult one, you'll lose the battle.

And since when I say that I'm in a calm mood whenever someone gives me crap, users think that I'm lying, so I'll go with them and say that you're probably getting mad because people are arguing with you. You can't just end an argument because you think you're hot stuff cause you're not. I can see why Razor actually said what he said about having XU stop debating with you.

So, that's all I have to say, PEACE!

umm i never got off topic. i used examples which is fair. stop trying to get to argue with me icebaby. i just told you that im having fun then you come back again and still try to argue with me. like i said im right about the topic and everyone on here has insulted me because i bring facts to the table and proved them wrong. you cant win againts me so you insult me, which is okay because its actually funny.

if you want me to get another source other than wikipedia i can surley can(mulitiple). is that what you want or are just going to keep finding something wrong with facts. everyone knows that 50 percent of all characters were created by the other 50 percent from some type of inspiration.

i still say liu kang is a ICON. he is cliche, but so are subs and scorps(the fighters you guys brought up) and raiden but they are CLASSIC.

anyone who does not think liu kang is an icon just does not like him personally, which is the stupidest argument you could come up with.

1.scorpion2.subzero3.raiden4.liukang ICONS. i could argue that sonya,jax,shao kahn,cyborgs and goro are too, another topic though!!!

I will not stop arguing back until you stop making feel like I have no idea what I'm talking about. I do not enjoy having my intelligence mocked... as well as I'm having fun too. First of all, yes you have gotten off topic. You talk about football, Gods and Cliche when this thread was specifically about Liu Kang. How have you been staying on topic when you change it from talking about Football. You did so right here:



So basically you did not get off topic once on this thread? Facts are facts dude, I got them right here.

Secondly, you were the one who did the insulting first:



He was not once talking to you, he was trying to end a debate between you and another user, but you took it too personally. You came back after him with this:



You don't see this as an insult first? I do, so you were the one who insulted. Razor did not personally call you stupid, he just said that you cannot have an argument with you. Which I can fully understand why he said that.

BIG_SYKE19 Wrote:
f you want me to get another source other than wikipedia i can surley can(mulitiple). is that what you want or are just going to keep finding something wrong with facts. everyone knows that 50 percent of all characters were created by the other 50 percent from some type of inspiration.

It's nice enough that someone actually goes off the site once and a while to get facts to prove people wrong. But when you use wikipedia as a site to prove someone wrong, they can easily manipulate it to where you're wrong by changing the site's info on the page to make one look like an idiot. Therefore, I mocked that so much.

BIG_SYKE19 Wrote:
i still say liu kang is a ICON. he is cliche, but so are subs and scorps(the fighters you guys brought up) and raiden but they are CLASSIC.

anyone who does not think liu kang is an icon just does not like him personally, which is the stupidest argument you could come up with.

1.scorpion2.subzero3.raiden4.liukang ICONS. i could argue that sonya,jax,shao kahn,cyborgs and goro are too, another topic though!!!

See, here's the thing. I don't hate Liu Kang as much as I hate Hsu Hao and all the other characters that are mostly hated throughout the series. I do not find this character iconic whatsoever, and because I told you MY reasons why I find this character to not be an icon, you jumped on my opinions to lash out millions of different reasons why he is.

No one has ever stated that because Liu Kang is a hated character, he is not an icon. I've seen good reasons why he's considered not to be one, therefore, I have no idea why you're making it a big issue if one does not see eye to eye with you because Liu Kang is obviously your favorite character and you hate seeing people who will not agree with you... Not sure if this was you, but I remember seeing someone's signature saying "If you don't agree on seeing MK go back as 2d, then get the f*ck out" or something... Yeah, I'm not... So, this is my point, rather you're going to laugh at it or not. People who want to take it seriously on this site, will continue showing seriousness around here. You laughing at people will obviously get people to dislike you more or just will not bother to tolerate your antics on arguing back...

Besides, I think people have already proven their points not to argue with you because "you'll always be right."

I USED TOM BRADY AS AN EXAMPLE. maybe next time i will put "an example is so and so......." i use examples to break it down because i might sound confusing, so im trying help people undersatnd me.

and you are being unfair, you know good and well razoredge tossed an indirect(slick) insult at me FIRST. i replied back only to him, i did not say other people names. think about it, why would i want to insult others who are not even talking to me????

and im not trying to make you feel dumb, im trying to prove a point. you guys said subs, and scorp, raiden are ICONS and liu is not. you then gave reasons which i counterd with facts.

and that was my sig. and i do you see my new one???? guess what i have proof and facts to back it up. mk should be 2d, another topic though.

no offense but i think a lot of you guys are casual players and im more of a serious player, so we kind of dont see eye to eye on ideas. i want better gameplay and you guys focus on stories more. its all good though.PEACE!

People enjoy good games, that is why they want a freaking story that's actually decent for once in this game. I'm a casual player, fuck off. Do not compare people's gameplaying to yours if you have never once fought someone online and know what they're like. Do not compare yourself as something you don't know. I've played this game long enough to know what I want in the game, I do want a story, a decent story in this game, not some shitty, unfinished story where 99% of the characters' endings are non-cannon. I want to see some big difference.

And facts with how a 2d game can be better than a 3d? No.

The problem with your facts is that they're not even good enough to defend against. Your youtube video showed barely anything good to show that people out there in the world actually cares more about Kang than anyone else. I asked my boyfriend, who barely plays the game, what characters can you think are the most iconic characters of the game, right off the bat he states Sub-Zero and Scorpion. He even mentioned Shang Tsung because Shang scared the shit out of him back when the movie first came out, and I laughed at. But still, a person who barely plays the game still at least told me who he believed was the most iconic character(s). So, proof that even those who don't play the game still states that Sub-Zero and Scorpion are more iconic than Liu, I have not once heard anyone saying Liu yet when the question has been asked.

well i have asked many and some said liu kang some did not. i think liu would make it though. you guys are being way too hard on him. i wonder why he was the hero in all the movies??? and from the past heroes always equals iconic. weird when you think about it. and i have facts that mk should be 2d. well, lets call them strong opinions. if you go on the ed boon thread you will see.

like i said most people on here are casual gamers who dont know the first thing about fighting games. ive seen a thread where people have been complaing about mk lackluster gameplay since 2004. those are people who know about fighting games. most people just want blood, story, cgi endings. what about gameplay though?? shouldnt that be the main reason you buy a fighting game. mk would not need complex gameplay if it was 2d.

and i do want a GOOD story(adds to the game) but gameplay and good fighters are first because its a FIGHTING GAME.

The problem is that he's not even a good character to play as. Seriously, I remember having the UMK3 strategy guide, they showed how each character is good/bad against one another, Liu Kang was horribly poor against every character except for Mileena and a few others. (They claimed that Classic Sub-Zero was the "best" character)

Are you serious about the "I wonder why Kang is the hero of the movies," or no?

Facts and opinions are two different things. Just because you state that 2d games are better than 3d, doesn't mean it proves a fact. Then technically, I can say that the SNES Metal Gear is better than MGS4, since it was 2d and MGS4 is 3d.

There are people, too many to be exact, who wants game play to be better. I do not know how you can't see that on this site. I see so many threads about "better game play," than, "better story lines."

Me, personally, I want both. I want a decent story that has characters actually doing something rather than just being in a game. So what if other fight games aren't like that, Mortal Kombat doesn't need to follow all the games that came after it. Why should it suddenly be like Tekken or Soul Calibur or anything like that? I want good game play and I got my wish when Mk vs DC came out. Honestly, I believed that MK vs DC had good game play despite a few bugs here and there, it still felt smoothly in my opinion.

I buy MK mainly because I enjoy the series, have played it since 1992 and forever play the game whether I enjoy the game play or not. It's a game, I buy games because they seem interesting and got nothing better to do over the breaks. That's the reason why I buy games. Sure, there are people who buy games for different reasons, but those are their reasons why they buy the game whether you want to agree with their reason or not. So, that is my point.

You obviously have no clue as to what my views are on matters regarding the MK series, not that I expected you to. So with that said, let me make myself clear.

I know that Mortal Kombat is a fighting game series, and I do believe that gameplay is important and should be done well. Trust me when I tell you that I have my fair share of ideas regarding gameplay ideas. However, being the kind of series that Mortal Kombat is (I don't just mean a fighting game series, btw.), it does not mean that the story shouldn't also have significance. Your so-called explanation, if you want to even call it that, is illogical.

The Virtua Fighter series doesn't place a great deal of importance in its story the way the Mortal Kombat series does. I personally don't know (and don't care) about Virtua Fighter's story.

Why the Mortal Kombat series has not been that great in terms of quality is not as simple as misguided focus on certain aspects. There are also time constraints as well as methodologies on how certain aspects are done. Ed Boon is a fighting game fan, and he loves Street Fighter and Tekken. He's not the kind of person that doesn't care about the gameplay in Mortal Kombat games.

It's just that the execution of the gameplay system is faulty due to lackluster methodology and improper testing. There was someone on this forum who worked with Ed Boon on Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance, and he would tell you that Boon and his team are hard-working people. At the same time, this guy knows that Mortal Kombat's gameplay needs major improvements.

About the main hero "evolving", I don't see a problem with that. Why don't I tell MK to evolve the simplistic gameplay? The truth is, it doesn't have to be a complex fighting game. This isn't to say that it shouldn't have depth but rather that it should have more of that Soul Calibur feel in which casual players can easily pick up and play while hardcore players can compete.

The key is developing a gameplay system that is solid and balanced. It doesn't mean that it will be perfect, but if the core of the gameplay is solid, and the characters are balanced out well enough, then there is success. Do not mistakenly think that I give little to no importance to gameplay.

I never said that Liu Kang's story is your fault so don't put words in my mouth! Later, you brag, saying that you proved all of our "theories" wrong and that you've "defeated" at least 5 people by yourself with "facts". Not only was that arrogant, but it was just plain stupid. You can't even get your facts straight if you blatantly put words into people's mouths.

Liu Kang may have his share of fans, but in terms of really being an iconic character, people would more likely think of characters such as Sub-Zero, Scorpion, Kitana, Sonya, Raiden, and Goro. Just because a character is one of the classic characters does not mean that he/she is deserving of continuing on. Obviously, people will have varying opinions.

You don't understand the nature of the different characters. Raiden may be derived from Japanese mythology, but the character himself is derived from an archetype, namely the archetype of a mentor/teacher. However, there is much more to him than just that. There are layers to his character, and we see certain developments in him later on.

I prefer to have polite, intelligent conversations, but you seem to have an incapability of doing the same. You didn't even have the courtesy to make the title of your thread specific enough.

So bottom line is, I care about the Mortal Kombat series. I want the gameplay to be great as well as the story and the characters. I don't see Liu Kang being worthy of returning, because he has had his run as a character. Even if he has potential to return, I don't have interest in it, and I don't see his potential as good as potential in someone like Sareena or Ermac.

When you stop acting like a smug little douche, then you can respond.

alright i am only taking about fighting games sticking to 2d not any other genre.stf,gg,kof all tried and failed, so did mk.( "failed"in terms of gameplay)

raiden derived from japanese mythology god. liu came from bruce lee. raiden is a mentor and liu kang is the choosen hero. both are cliche and old archetypes,storylines......

and you dont want liu to return because YOU THINK he has raned his course........ uummm i could say the same thing about subs and scorps after all they have been in the story since day 1, just like liu kang. liu kang needs to evovle, thats the only problem i really see with him. you guys seem like you dont like him too much and you bring up your opinions about him rather than facts.

and please stop with the name calling buddy, you sound like you want me to k.o you. but i will let it go. stop trying to start with me. just state your opinion or facts and leave. everyone wants to call me names but when i respond you act all hurt and like its my fault!!!!

Okay, after reading most of this thread, I can say the following:
1. Most of you guys need to cool down when it comes to these discussions. They get too personal and lead to insults, which do not belong here. Everyone has a right to enjoy themselves here without having to feel attacked whenever their opinions on a subject/post are made.
2. If you have a point to argue, back it up with actual evidence please. Just because you think you're right doesn't mean you are; prove it.
3. For the love of God, if someone posts a rebuttal to your claims, actually read and discuss it. Shouting the same old song while blocking your ears when someone challenges your idea just makes you look ignorant and dense.
I'm closing this before the ridiculousness of this topic continues.

I've posted in this thread, so that's clearly not the case. Even Razor, who I often disagree with, at least tries to argue without just rambling.



None of MK characters are particularly original. That's why I love 'em. They're derivative of other cool things and then thrown together.