But then why use the character at all? If the adaptation doesn't even need to resemble his source character, why not just call him something else and call it a day? That's the entire problem with Rebirth. It's trying to force MK's square peg into Deacon City's round hole.

I have a BIG problem with his quote. Mortal Kombat IS and will ALWAYS BE a campy, over-the-top fighting game. That is why it so special, iconic and unique. Stripping it of it's campiness is stripping the series of it's charm. What iconic things aren't campy? Scorpion's spear move (complete with a "GET OVER HERE" shout), Sub-Zero's spine rip, Kano's heart rip, TOASTY! All campy goodness! It's funny he doesn't want "campy" things but his ~vision~ includes a plastic surgeon who goes crazy and pierces himself/attaches blades to his arms to become Baraka. That is beyond ridiculous.

However, I hope Jeri Ryan returns as Sonya. She was the best part.

Exactly.

With Batman, where there are a hundred different flavors, the setting of every single one is STILL crime-ridden Gotham City where Bruce Wayne watched his parents gunned down as a child and dedicated his life to fighting crime by becoming the world's best detective and fighter and utilizing an arsenal of gadgets and a costume with pointy ears and a cape.

With TMNT, light or dark, human Shredder, alien Shredder, or cyborg Shredder, the world is still NYC and they're still four pet turtles who, bathed in radioactive waste, became human-sized and were taught ninjutsu by a similarly mutated rat-man who they regard as a father figure and they all live together in the sewer and have a human friend named April O'Neil.

DETAILS change from adaptation to adaptation, but the CORE always remains.

Rebirth does not have Mortal Kombat's CORE.

Mortal Kombat's canon is way too corny for a movie. We saw that with the first movie; no need to even mention the second. This is the right direction for Mortal Kombat I think. I reserve final judgment until after the episodes are actually online and I can download and watch them that at my leisure.

I don't get why anyone would be so upset about a slight retcon after the last two movies tried to be as close as they possibly could with their PG-13 ratings and were horrible, cheesy and really painful to watch personally. Besides, I would argue the core is the tournament itself, which is obviously still there.

That's the problem, an MK movie should not be PG-13.

Exactly. That's one of my points. If you're suggesting they do MK with traditional canon with an R-Rating and it wouldn't be as cheesy...well, maybe. I'm not sure. I just don't know if it translates to live action the greatest. I'd be willing to give ti a chance.

As I've stated before, Baraka should be the leader of underground renegade warrior-vigilantes, known as Tarkatans.

Along with his beastly appearance are a pair of self-made arm blades he can extend and detract at will. Kind of like what Dampierre has in Soul Calibur, only much longer.

My views Align with Statue here, but to avoid the semantic problems with the Zatterian origin, let's use another essential quality. Reptile is, essentially, not human. The comics and movies at least got that part right. I don't think it's incorrect to say that Reptile from the films/comics was the Reptile we know from the games.

Though I'm being pretty lenient on the first MK film when I say that. That rendition of Reptile was really strange. Were they just trying to save money by not using a stunt double in lizard makeup?


But those are more character motivations and skills. It's unlikely that Nightwolf would be a computer expert, but it doesn't contradict the character concept. The same is true with Sub-Zero. It's possible that the Lin Kuei could have failed to kidnap the brothers and they never became assassins, and therefore never killed Scorpion.

That said, the fact that the two Sub-Zero's are brothers is an essential quality. If you change that, you now have a new and different character on your hands. The only way you could maintain otherwise is if a later event in MK reveals that they were never actually brothers (perhaps cousins instead). But that brings in the issue of the author's sovereignty over his own work, and that itself is its own ballpark.


That's true, but I would hope that retcons only occur out of necessity. It would really make me uneasy to think Tobias/Vogel changed parts of MK history simply because they wanted to try something different.


*scratches chin*

This one's tricky. Nine times out of ten I say setting is not essential to a character (EX: Luke being from tatooine), but the fact that all the known cryomancers are in Earth realm leads me to believe that there's some pivotal x-factor here. Hard to say, but had Sub-Zero been from Outworld, I don't think it would be problematic to the character concept.


Actually, I'm going to disagree. This is a case where fictional essence failed to transfer. From the examples in your post, what we have here is a new character with the name and the function of the original Shredder.

Granted, I don't know enough about TMNT to say if this is true of all your examples, but it's certainly true of the slug, the robot, and the demon.

What it sounds like is that you have a very specific view of what constitutes the "correct" way a character is handled. So, even though, say, Shredder serves the same role, but what he is, where he comes from, and how he functions differs, you wouldn't call the robot, demon, or slug version of Shredder the "real" Shredder.

But then someone else WOULD.

I could go on, but another key example would be Ra's Al Ghul in Batman Begins. He's incredibly different and has little of what the comic version is best known for. No Lazarus Pit. He's not thousands of years old and relatively immortal. There's no Talia Al Ghul. He goes by the name Ducard. He actually trains Bruce Wayne and helps him become Batman. He has an alliance with the Scarecrow. Rather than trying to create environmental balance, he seeks to create forced order and justice in the world. His origins and background is different from the comics. His motivation is different. He doesn't even look much like Ra's Al Ghul from the comics. And yet he serves the role the movie's story needs him to serve.

He is a different Ra's Al Ghul, in many ways, but still is Ra's Al Ghul. It all depends on how it's handled.

I still see MKRebirth's Reptile as an alternate version of Reptile. He looks reptilian due to his skin condition. He has fangs. He carries over Reptile's propensity to eat human heads. He keeps the bandaged, tattered look from Shaolin Monks and Armageddon in a few places. He hides away from humanity in the shadows. And, considering this is a martial arts movie, I bet he knows how to fight.

Is that enough for purists? Probably not. They won't accept Reptile unless he's an actual alien Reptile-human creature. But for those willing to buy into a brand new universe with a realistic, gritty approach, I think he fits the bill just fine.

I advocate this as a diversionary side project, like DC's Elseworlds brand, but nothing else. To think that this vision is an improvement that should replace the existing mythos of MK would be just wrong. I really don't see how the director can say that he's keeping everything that made MK great. Asian mysticism and bizarre fantasy shit IS what made MK great to me. Not blood. Not gore. Not over-the-top campiness. Frankly, I could care less how terrifying or disgusting the next movie or game is. That may have been a selling point back in the day, before the ESRB but now it's commonplace. There are tons of games and movies that are more bloody, more graphic and do it a million times better than MK. The only selling point that remains for MK is its mythology. To scrap that would be folly.

I won't be watching this. Just because it has the Mortal kombat name and stole the names of several characters does not Mortal kombat make. I don't want to know about an alternate reality Mortal kombat, I want to know more about the one that Midway/NRS made.

Not saying I want some big canon action block buster movie/series. But give us a Comic series, Grahpic novel or CG movie based on the actual games or plot's that occured between/before the games. I like the Mortal kombat story that we have now and I would like to know more about it. Creating a web series that has nothing to do with mortal kombat aside from the name's is just going to breed confusion.

Like I said I want to know more about the real MK universe not some fake one used to entertain the masses because the canon material can't be done properly. Aside from the games we have very little info about what goes on in the Mortal kombat universe and I would like to see that change without taking us into some rediculous alternate reality. The real Mortal kombat has enough stories to tell without making fake versions just so that low talent unemployed actors have something to do with their time.

Just my opinion anyways. NRS is sitting on good material and instead of capatalizing on it, they stick it in a blender and see what comes out the other end. Edit: Also Mrs.Ryan is way too old to play Sonya.

I'll probably watch it....but it's not the same. to me, the fantasy elements, that's what makes Mortal Kombat, Mortal Kombat. When I watch Harry Potter, I don't want a rational explanation for EVERYTHING. If they changed around how they're able to summon magic spells and made into some sort of machine and got rid of all the supernatural elements, it wouldn't feel like Harry Potter, it would be some different series. and this scenario applies to MK in my view. Realism and fantasy have their place, if I'm watching a documentary on World war 2, I don't want to see fantasy elements like Wizards and Centaurs running around, because they wouldn't fit.

I'm not knocking their product and I've seen the first "pitch" idea, and it was okay, but without hearing the MK names, I would never even know it was MK, at least with the other forms of media covered like the two movies, comics, TV shows etc, you can tell who the characters are without someone having to tell you. Baraka a demented plastic surgeon? If this wasn't Mortal Kombat I would have loved the little short pitch as some scary brutal movie ,it would have been cool, but I just don't feel it has any connection to the series other than in name.

No, slug, robot and demon are not entirely different characters, just extremely different versions of the Shredder. All of them are as much Shredder as one from the old cartton or the movie. Different versions of the same character.


People already explained to you, that it's not that essential. Besides MKR have done exactly that - captured key points of the characters, while changing they appearance and story details.


Wrong. Baraka is carnivourus bastard with blades. Without blased no one ver remembered him. His blades is like morphs and soul stealing for the Shang Tsung. It makes him standout form other fighters and it basically the first thing that people associate with him. MKR perfectly captured that...and do you really think that MKR Baraka is vegetarian? LOL.


Why not? They're both government officials - special agents or police. Both badass. That's exactly how they should be portrayed when they deal with such situations as interrogation. Or you think that the only think that they do is traveling to another worlds and fighting in Mortal Kombats?
There were times before OIA was established.
So your argument failed again.


Nah. Most likely you don't want to understand that MKR is not so far removed from usual MK, as you trying to prove.

As for cornyness and MK. I think that they could co-exist together, but I don't think that "cornyness" should be part of MK. Black humor - yes, cornyness - not so much.

Well, we know for a fact it'll have some black humor in it in the form of Michael Jai White.


... oh, that's not what you meant by "Black Humor"? Nevermind. As you were.

If there is such a thing as fictional essence (and I believe there is), the logical limitations that govern it would have to be specific. If you start suspending these rules, then the claims regarding literature start to lose their meaning.

If someone is going to say that this alternate depiction essentially is shredder, they have to be able to explain why the depiction is able to contain qualities that contradict the original model of Shredder. That's the key here: you can have different qualities; you cannot have opposing qualities. Shredder can't be human and not human at the same time.



I'm leaving my territory here cause I don't know much about Batman's history, so it's more difficult to judge the Ra's Al Ghul thing. If it weren't for the immortality aspect, I would say on the surface, Ra's Al Ghul didn't fair too badly. But you're right, that is sort of a silver bullet there.

But if fictional essence fails to transfer, it's not always a bad thing. Perhaps this version was more interesting (I have no idea if it was). As Razor pointed out, the rest of the Batman story was basically intact. If MK Rebirth only messed up Reptile, I wouldn't be writing essays against it.

All I'm saying is that they are two separate characters that share nominal qualities. The context will determine if that's good or bad. It's bad in the case of MK because it's pretty much an exploitation game.


If we had a solid MK film to date, I would just sit back and take it for what it is. Since every MK film has been bullshit (with some worse than others), this film feels like a steel-toed kick in the balls.


What's not that essential? I hate to play the grammar card, which is something I almost never do, but I have no way of pinpointing what you're trying to say. You're using a vague pronoun that could mean anything.




No, he captured gimmicks. Baraka's blades are iconic of him, but they don't define him, nor does Reptile's act of eating heads define him. You can't just give some bloke claws and say, "hey, it's new version of Wolverine!" It doesn't work like that.





Again, you're mistaking iconic qualities for essential qualities.


Well, um... what?




It goes back to the argument of essential qualities. The only essential qualities we have regarding Jax is that he's a black man from Earth Realm, so the fact they got that part right isn't really a victory. They didn't get anything else right. Being a Major in the army is not the same as being a police detective. We have evidence he ever WAS a police detective. It's true that they didn't have a lot to work with, so if I can find a violin small enough, I'll play a damn song for them.



All out of doors looked darkly in at him
Through the thin frost, almost in separate stars,
That gathers on the pane in empty rooms.
What kept his eyes from giving back the gaze
Was the lamp tilted near them in his hand.

Yes he can. See Turtles Forever. The Utrom Shredder and The Shredder from 80s are still both very much Shredder. Also See DC comics' Multiverse.

When it comes to multiverses, you don't actually have one character with contradictory qualities. What you have is two separate characters who are qualitatively identical. Even if Donatello has most if not every single quality that his parallel universe counterpart has, that doesn't make them the same character. You're still dealing with two entities with two separate awarenesses, so there's no contradiction.

In the Shredder situation this is especially true since not only are they two separate awarenesses (which by default separates them in terms of identity), but they are very different in terms of attributes.

I'll watch it before I make any judgements.
Just a quick question. Does anyone think that the cop that appears at around 28 seconds is Stryker or just a random guy?

http://www.importanceofphilosophy.com/Metaphysics_Identity.html

A is A, Reptile Is Reptile, be it Rebirth or Core MK. He's a lizard man and a lackey of Shang Tsung in both universes.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't really see how referencing other series adds much productive value to the conversation. You should be able to defend or oppose MK:Rebirth within the confines of the Mortal Kombat series. I don't see how much importance other series have to this issue. Sure, series X did such and such, but how does that have much barring on MK. I don't see where any of that goes beyond some sort of "they-did-that-so-this-is-okay" line of thinking. We could go on for years about that kind of stuff.
Edit: No way did someone just throw down the Metaphysics gauntlet!

He's not a lizard man, he's a human with a skin disease.

And Shang Tsung is not Shang Tsung. Oh, he's named Shang Tsung, but he's not an ancient sorcerer, he's a mob boss.

"Shang Tsung, not Kano, is the mob boss." What's the world coming to when I can speak that phrase?

I don't see how citing other franchises that have basically done what Mortal Kombat Rebirth has done hurts the conversation. Yes it is a discussion about Mortal Kombat, but it's also a discussion about alternate versions/universes and brand integrity. The discussion about The Shredder is very much relevant.

I just came.

Y'know, even when people liked the first Resident Evil movie, nobody was like "it's okay because it's an alternate universe", why does that answer suddenly exist now when it's never been brought up for any other inaccurate adaptation in the history of video game, comic book, and novel movies?

So what's up with that Special Forces game?