R u serious y is Noob not on that list of Iconic characters he's the character behind both sub-zero and Scropions storyline.
He is also the most mystorious charcter in the Game and the best ninja other than Scropion and Subzero. If Noob doesn't fit Iconic i don't know who does. Noob must be in this GAME!

Sub-Zero is iconic -- not Noob Saibot.
His debatable involvement in storylines doesn't make him any more recognisable or significant than his successive counterpart, who, thoroughly inhabits the role.

Noob's mystique is a symptom of not having any character or fleshed out involvement. Up until recently he was the fifth ninja palette swap, arguably the least inspired. Now he's a hunched monkey fighting gimp with a silly vest, ridiculous world domination plot, and about as much mystery as the contents of Jenna Jameson's shirt.

Until recently I was very fond of the character, but by no stretch of the definition is Noob an icon of the series. It just isn't so.

i think the most popular characters of Mk are the ones which appears in the first movie..so Kitana will make the cut.
i won't be surprised if they choose them and give 'em the same clothes as the movies....
maybe they'll add Motaro

now it looks this way:

1)Johnny cage(far away the best character in the movie)
2)liu
3)sonya
4)rayden
5)shang tsung
6)reptile(ninja form)
7)goro
8)Kano

and maybe shao kahn
PS:of course i idn't count scorpy and subby

Here's the thing, guys.... the characters that have been in the most games are likely gonna make it. Mileena being more iconic than anyone really makes me laugh.... sorry, but she's just a Kitana clone/palette swap. But, to be both fair and honest, Kitana's only been in the first retail version of 3 games.... 2, DA, and Armageddon, so she's FAR from being a lock, whereas a character like Raiden (who's been in 6) is much more likely to make it.

Anyway, moving on... when MK removed the classic staples of the MK roster in Deception, a lot of us die-hards were happy, (not me, but a good number of us) but a lot of the more casual gamers weren't. The MK team even felt the need to put these guys in the game somehow to compensate! You could still fight 'em in conquest. They even went so far as to mention them in the instruction manual. Here's your proof:

(page 16) ...Earthrealm.... Shujinko begins his tale here in Earthrealm, home to such legendary heroes as Johnny Cage, Sonya Blade, Jax and Liu Kang. The Thunder God Raiden also defends this realm from the forces of evil.

Those characters are almost certainly in. Notice, friends, that they didn't mention Kung Lao, either... (Did I hear a gasp?) but I think he may make it, too. I don't claim all of these guys'll make it, but I think they will. If so, that'd be 5. Adding the two original Palette swaps leaves room for 3 villains (assuming MK only gets 10 spots), one of which will certainly be Reptile. (But Scorpion, despite being 'neutral' in most of the conflicts, is an evil being, anyway, so he'll likely be used in such a capacity. He's a killer... he went to hell. 1+1=2, guys) As much as I'd like to include Lao and Kitana.... I dunno how to--though Kang not making the game wouldn't really surprise me after their decision to move past him in DA.

Let me point out that of the other realms mentioned in the manual, only Shao Kahn was deemed (yes, I know I spelled it wrong) important enough to be mentioned. So, even when MK abandons it's staples, they know better than to not mention them. Think about it, their absence was the main force driving the plot of Reject's Revenge...er... Deception. It only stands to reason that the MK side of the roster will come largely out of this group (with a few exceptions, I'm sure)

My best guess (10):

Johnny Cage--He's probably in
Sonya Blade--She's probably in.
Jax--He's in. I'm almost positive. Black and Boon loves him.
Liu Kang--could be out... If so, Lao will likely slide in here.
Raiden--In. Period.
(Sub-Zero)
(Scorpion)
Reptile--He's very likely to be in.
Shang Tsung--He'll probably be in.
And I'm gonna guess and put Kitana in at #10.

Bear in mind that the MK team will likely throw a few curveballs our way that no one will expect, but I see this as the most likely scenario, with an unplayable Sub-Boss being Goro and the Boss being Shao Kahn (unless it happens to be Raiden...) merged with the conqueror from DC that the sites keep talking about. (Read around. It's claimed that 2 conquerors merge, causing this mess. Sounds like Kahn to me.) EDIT: Gotta say, i like Quan Chi's chances, too, though--once upon a time, he DID have that amulet...

To Mick Lucifer:

I dare say more people could name Kitana than Kano, which is my point.

And I see it otherwise all the time. Kitana is far more important, but Kano is far more recognizable. I guess we will have to agree to disagree, but I have seen this, and maybe you have seen it the other way around. There cant really be a “you are wrong” shot in this sort of thing.

People outside of the MK fanbase are aware of the male and female ninjas. Granted, they might know Scorpion or Sub-Zero by name, but Kitana is one of the MKII characters to surpass predecessors (like Kano and Sonya), to the point where a lot of very casual gamers mistake her for an original character.

I haven’t seen anything about your “mistake her for an original character” statement...anywhere, not even from noobs here (I mean the worst of the worst), and Kitana surpassing some of the predecessors is completely debatable, that’s opinion. And yes, people are aware of the ninjas, but people (and this comes from a huge Mileena fan) just remember, at least really really remember, the males.

Thanks to the movies, she's recognised as a more important character, and that's translated into the games. I'd say Kitana has effectively taken over the role of heroic female lead from Sonya, whose relevance has fluctuated since her initial appearance.

But Kitana’s roles in both movies were extremely inferior to all the other characters that were presented. Comparing her horrible movie incarnation to the games is an insult to Kitana overall, who imo played her importance well in MK2 and after, not necessarily because of the movie, but yes, I do agree it did help her in the way it helped, say, Reptile, it just made her be seen.

As for the last bit of your opinion, that’s completely debatable, and I guess we’ll just agree to disagree.

To Xia:

Queve, you make it sound like Kitana, Mileena, and the other MKII characters were never marketed back in the day. When MK2 came out, they were plastered on just as many posters, comics, promos, etc and anyone else.

That’s exactly my point. Just because they were marketed that doesn’t make them any less from the others, does it? And even after MK2, you could see that the marketing difference from the first characters was extremely huge, mk2 weren’t marketed in the way the others continued to be marketed after their first game.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't MK2 widely considered the high point of Mortal Kombat? Wouldn't casual fans be just as, if not more, likely to remember the cast of characters from that game as MK1?

And wasn’t MK1 the one who originated MK2 and caused the huge sensation and gave birth to a name that was never going to be forgotten (for a long time at least)? Widely considered the originator of everything that we know? MK2 being the high point of MK doesn’t make it more or less then MK1, which started it all. Surely casual fans are just as likely to remember the originators because MK2 is there because of MK1.

Maybe guys like Kano, Baraka, and Johnny Cage are icons in their way...but more iconic than Kitana, Shao Kahn, Mileena? I don't believe that for a second.

I adore Shao Kahn and Mileena 10000000 times more then Kano and Baraka, but that doesn’t make them more recognizable to “casual” fans. I never said they were more iconic in importance to the games plot, its got nothing to do with that, and that also doesn’t make then unmemorable. Them not being as iconic doesn’t mean they aren’t iconic at all, just in case. They have just as much of a shot to take that place imo.

And I'm going to be brutally honest here: if the MK team really does figure Kano and Johnny Cage as more important icons than Mileena or Shao Kahn, I'm going to be fucking sick.

Like I said, if they add Shao Kahn and Mileena instead of Kano or Johnny Cage I wouldn’t be surprised at all. They ARE memorable, they are iconic, just because they are not as much doesn’t mean they are zero. Maybe that was misunderstood. They can be iconic, very, but probably not as much as the first two, and still, they can and probably will make it in.

But this whole icon thing only proves the second point of my post: characters shouldn't be chosen soley on their "iconic" value....because they truth is, aside from it being very debatable, some characters become icons for really shallow or flat-out stupid reasons. One could make a case that Stryker is an icon because for a long time he was the "official" worst character ever.

Which is why I agreed with your three views. You’ve just got to remember there are iconic characters for the constant fans, and there are iconic characters for the ones who don’t really fallow the series as much, and that’s were some like Kano and even Baraka win.

If this is also supposed to attract a wider audience/public from outside MK as well, that’s the truth.

The characters should also be chosen based on what they bring to the table and represent in Mortal Kombat.

Sure, I agree.

So in that regard, who do you think is more deserving of being in: the comic relief....or the femme fatale villainess? One of the main villains....or another henchman?

You are making me choose from two of my favorite characters ever?! I’ll answer with honesty:

From THAT regard, Mileena, because her development has obviously been heavier and better, she has been developed more, that’s why she *disserves* it.

From the other regard, Johnny Cage wins the competition, because he is more recognizable and memorable, despite having had only two excellent positions.

We knowing that Mileena is more important, doesn’t make her more “iconic” outside this general fan base.

That same general public also played MK2 and I guarantee many would remember the ninja chick with a fucked up face who fought the other ninja chick with fans. But also look at this from the DC side:
More people know and recognize Robin than a lot of other DC characters. But is or should he be in while someone like Green Lantern or the Flash is left out?

This game will introduce a lot of new fans to the DC universe and vice versa. Someone may recognize Robin or Kano more...but they should know that characters like Mileena and Green Lantern are more important.

I'm sure, because they are obviously likely to be remembered (Mileena and Kitana), but that doesn’t necessarily make them even more more more recognizable then the others. I guess this is all debatable to no end.

But you said it yourself with your DC statement. If they are thinking general public and media attention and high recognitions, you said it, Robin is the one. I'm guessing no one is really caring about who is “more important” in the other aspects. Sadly, storyline doesn’t even seem to be important in this game either, so...

To sexy QueenSindel(TheBitch): I disagree with this part of your post. Mileena and Baraka were the stars of MK: Deception after Scorpion and Sub-Zero. I really think Mileena is more recognizable than Johnny and Kano now.

Hey there to you too! How have you been? I’ve got loads to tell you. I’ll see when I send you and Sub7th a decent pm.

Back to topic: I'm a huge huge huge Mileena fan, but I’ve seen more Kano recognition then hers, and obviously, more of Johnny Cage.

True that Mileena wasn't promoted much back in the day with the films and toon and stuff over Johnny, but for a character to remain iconic, they must be continuously promoted or else they fade into oblivion.

Not necessarily. For example, if DC doesn’t promote Superman for whatever reason, that wouldn’t make him less iconic unless they decided to get rid of him. Liu Kang is still as iconic as he was in day 1, and he has been disliked, ignored and even killed, and still, he is Liu Kang, one of the icons.

And remember, Johnny Cage and Kano were both used for promotion in MKA.

Mileena is a top star now along with Johnny but I think she exceeded his fame because of Deception and her highly popular MKA bio.

I completely agree, but this is among us, the real fans.

Someone who hasn’t been with MK like this would not really know or care about that, even if they saw a half-naked female with a veil and sais being promoted so much for MKD.

As for non-MK fans, I'm sure most people know few kombatants besides Scorp and Sub but anyone keeping up with MK even slightly has to know Mileena before Johnny and Kano these days due to her prominence in MKD and MKA.

This is kind of contradictory, because if you are basing your thoughts in the bios for example, Johnny Cage is a thousand times more “important” then Mileena in MKA, simply because of the drastic twist of his bio. And Mileena had less promotion or prominence in MKA, were only a selected few were marketed, and that included Kano and Johnny Cage.

Her prominence was super strong in MKD.

Johnny and Kano didn't even have roles in MKA konquest, but she did.

Sure, the thing is, to a casual gamer that means nothing.

I think it's arguable that Mileena has become more prominent than Kitana as a face of MK but because she's a villain and not an important while Kitana is a hero and an important one, I think it's more likely that Kitana will be playable in MK vs DC.

True. I only disagree with your bit of Mileena not being important. She is just as important as Kitana.

I agree except for Quan Chi, Kano, and Kung Lao.

Quan Chi was only prominent in the unpopular MK4 and in MKDA but that's it. He's not continuously promoted and he's never done much outside the games.

But Mileena was only prominent in MKD and MK2, she and some of the other MK2 characters haven’t done much outside the games either (except probably the movies).

Kano I'd say was iconic back in the day but I really feel that he's fallen from grace. I mean, how many Kano fans are there anymore? On this site alone I hardly here excited talk of him.

Very true. But what some people confuse the “fall from grace” from fans and just casual players who know the name of MK.

To them, Kano is still Kano, as Liu Kang is still Liu Kang...more then the rest. I'm all for Mileena, but that’s the truth in that aspect, you know I'm a huge fan of her.

Kung Lao I would say is on the line of Jade or Noob. He's there but not at the top like many others, imo. He wasn't in either films. I don't remember him in the toon. He wasn't even that prominent is DA compared to others. This is why I was surprised to hear that the adventure game spin-off was gonna feature him as a main character.

I agree as well. My list was kind of huge btw, so I just added those that have been more “prominent” in some way for fans in and outside the overall game. Maybe MKSM was enough for that spark.

Your thoughts on KANO: It's more likely to happen the other way around if these gamers you're talking about are keeping up with modern games. Yeah like 10 years ago. What has Midway done lately to keep him at the front of the line? I just don't see Kano as one of the "stars" anymore. He has really faded from that, imo.

But if the strategy is to also attract a general public who hasn’t been keeping up with the modern games as much as us, the fans, its not going to be Mileena the one who is instantly recognized. And they, Midway, hasn’t done much to keep Liu Kang (we have mksm though), etc. in the front line of stars since forever, but he is still one of the icons, isn’t he?

And remember Kano got his bit in MKA despite having no bio.

Dang, Queve... that's a lot of scrolling.

Now see, go to a comic or DC message board and try saying that. I guarantee you the majority of fans there will say the MK fans need to screw themselves and accept Green Lantern is one of DC's "Big 7" and Robin is only a sidekick.

Fuck the "general public," there are two major target audiences with this game: MK fans and DC fans. I know no DC fan would accept a secondary character over one of the "Big Guns" just because that character is a "name."

Why should the Mortal Kombat side of the spectrum not share that feeling?

XiahouDun84, it's all a moot point, 'cause Green Lantern and Robin will both likely be in it, anyway. But you are correct--Lantern's one of the big 5 or 7. ...at least, Hal Jordan's Lantern.

With only 10-11 slots, I doubt that.
EDIT:
You know it's funny, we're all debating and speculating what characters the DC fans are more likely to recognize or remember......chances are, most probably don't really give a shit. If Kano gets in and not Mileena or vice versa...it'll probably be Mortal Kombat fans who get the most pissed about it.

True, lol. I know I base which MK gamesI like and/or buy on which characters are in, like I'm sure a lot of you do.

The question thus becomes: Who do MK fans like more, Kano or...well, let's face it. Kano isn't very popular. Mileena's gonna make it in well before him.

I'm not sure a roster of 10/11 has enough room for three girls, though. I really only expect to see Sonya and Kitana.

Learn 2 spell -recognisable - correctly nd maybe i'll take your BS answer/opinnion seriously!

You know, complaining about someone's spelling is like admiting defeat.

I have to agree with Mick-Lucifer. Noob just isn't anywhere near as iconic as characters like Sub-Zero, Scorpion, Kung Lao, Kitana, etc.

He's nothing more than another palette swap. Only now he's a palette swap with a ****** storyline and a ridiculous fighting technique. Monkey... almost as stupid as Reptile's Crab stance. But just almost.

Shazeem you talking about someone's spelling? Learn how to spell opinion. Its spelled opinion not opinnion, lol. You spelled something wrong as well.

(In no particular order)

1 - Scorpion
2 - Sub - Zero
3 - Liu Kang
4 - Raiden
5 - Johnny Cage
6 - Kitana
7 - Sonya
8 - Shang Tsung
9 - Goro
10 - Kano
11 - Shao Kahn

I don't know about iconic, but those are the characters I see making it in on the MK side.

Raiden
Kitana
Reptile

i believe those 3 will be in the game for sure... no doubt in my mind. the rest i think very well could be, but im not certain.... list is in order... higher up on the list better chance i believe they have of being in the game.

Liu Kang
Kung Lao
Mileena
Shang Tsung
Shao Kahn
Goro
Sonya
Jax
Kabal
Ermac
Quan Chi
Noob Saibot
Rain
Baraka

no one else i really think has a chance of being in it and id be surprised to see any one different.... and the top half of that list (Liu-Sonya) i think all have a 50-75% chance while the bottom half (Jax-Baraka) i would say have like 20-40% chance of being in the game.

now i gotta admit before i never did think about Jax possibly being in the game.... i never did think about how he is iconic to the series till reading this thread... he IS the staple black man of the MK series.... and i do believe he is easily recognizable with his big biotic arms.... i mean if you are familiar with any of the MK games Jax is in... then his arms should be easy to identify.... the only issue i see with Jax making the cut is his popularity.... popularity gotta be the biggest factor as to who is gonna be in the game.... and well Jax's popularity i believe went down after MKDA as he was just pretty much crap in that game...

as for the likes of Ermac, Quan Chi, Noob Saibot, Rain, Baraka, and Kabal i think they could make the cut but would mainly for verity, though Noob, Ermac, and Baraka are all pretty popular..... and Rain even is as well nowadays....

Two; and; I'll; opinion!
Wow. I read and speak actual English. You can probably even tell this time, what with so few words having more than five big distracting letters, and all...


Yeah, I was very disappointed with a lot of Deception's characters.
Noob definitely had a lot of mystique working for him, and while it was fun to peel back a layer to find out about his past as the first game's Sub-Zero, everything else just felt like such a disservice to the character's potential.

An individual appearance was a must, but the peasant/gimp combo was awful enough without adding the hunched monkey style to a character that had, until then, had an implied strength.
Of all franchises MK probably does the best to inject momentum and development into the stories and characters, but sometimes I just don't think they know how to put it all together. The presence of professional writers in MKvsDC is definitely an overdue positive!

I actually thought crab style worked for Reptile, particularly in that state. I would've been happy to see him swap between that and monkey; leaving Noob something stronger, more aggresive, and more direct.

You'd think that, sure. On the surface it sounds like a fine idea.

Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is, these professional writers haven't been working with the series since the beginning, the way John Vogel has. They're not familiar with the characters and their backstories, and could potentially interpret them wrong...just like the writer of Shaolin Monks did.

Remember him? He was a professional comic book writer too. He wasn't a very good or popular one, though.

Just like Palmiotti and Grey aren't very good or popular.

They're best known for their work on the series "Countdown". Let me tell you something about Countdown:

It's terrible. The dialogue frequently sounds ridiculous, the plot NEVER makes sense, and every issue, at least one character does something out-of-character that makes no logical sense and is sometimes so stupid you can't help but laugh. I've never once yet met a person who liked it. Every week it comes out, the boards on sites like Newsarama do nothing but complain about and make fun of it. I swear to God, it has been the WORST book DC has put out all year.
Y'know how smoking gives you lung cancer? Well reading Countdown will give you soul cancer.
Our only hope is if these two hacks' only job was to approve the dialogue for the DC guys, and all the rest of the story was written by Vogel's team.

How sure are you? I'm a writer, and I'm pretty familiar with the MK characters... It's not like the two roles are mutually exclusive, or like it's impossible for a writer to invest in the material.


You'll have to clue me in. I had no idea!


Actually; I'd say they're [particularly Palmiotti] just as well known, if not much better, for work on books like; Daredevil, Painkiller Jane, Monolith, Deadpool, Jonah Hex, Hawkman...

Countdown might be a high profile book, but it's a very large collaborative effort controlled heavily by editorial edicts. I also question whether it's been as bad as certain fans are intent to make out. Converging opinions seem to agree that it's certainly ending well, but I certainly wouldn't say it's tarnished the careers of all involved.

I'd agree that Boon has maybe misrepresented the success of the pair, but likewise, he's indicated through interviews that they're helping steer the DC side of things, rather than interjecting on the whole. Although, as Boon might be over estimating their record, I think you're drastically underrating it, and misrepresnting their ability.

When Shaolin Monks was announced, Boon explained that they'd hired a comic book writer to write the story, because 1) Vogel was busy working on Armageddon (Suuuure he was...what happened there, guys? He wasn't doing bios and Konquest mode couldn't have taken that long to write.) and 2) the whole point of the game was to go back to MK2 and expand on what was there and, in theory, no one's better at handling and interpreting continuity than writers of superhero books.

That writer turned out to be Jim Krueger.

I have to apologize, I said before that Krueger wasn't good or popular. That's because I'd forgotten who he was. I just looked it up and it turns out he's best known for working with the amazing painter Alex Ross on the books "Earth-X" for Marvel and "Justice" for DC.

Those were actually very good stories. Jim Krueger is, by all appearances, a good writer.

So how did Shaolin Monks' story end up so terrible?

Because he didn't know Mortal Kombat. Not as well as the fans do. And he didn't take the time (or maybe didn't have the time) to learn. There's a difference between knowing basic facts like "Liu Kang won MK1 and to get back at him, Kahn sent Baraka to attack the Shaolin Temples" and knowing the actual personalities of the characters, like "Kung Lao is a wise, calm pacifist, not a jealous, childish douchebag." And he damn sure didn't stick to the little details, like "Shang Tsung's youth was restored by Kahn, not by himself", or more importantly "Scorpion is not a villain".
I will say THIS for Krueger, though: If he's the one who wrote the victory taunts, "You just got Caged!" is the greatest catchphrase of all time and the more MK games I hear it in, the happier I'll be.

Unfortunately, nothing Palmiotti and Grey have ever written is as good as Earth-X or Justice. The only one of the books you listed that I've heard people enjoy is Jonah Hex, and it's about a cowboy. Cowboys are hard to screw up.

Well, the following is a list of the Mortal Kombat characters I think are the most iconic:

1. Scorpion
2. Sub-Zero
3. Shao Kahn
4. Shang Tsung
5. Goro
6. Sonya
7. Johnny Cage
8. Reptile
9. Liu Kang
10. Raiden
11. Kung Lao

Wow! I wasn't exactly tracking every newsbyte at the time, but I'm kinda surprised this information wasn't more accessible. Kreuger's definitely more noteworthy than Palmiotti and Gray, despite having probably crossed mediums more.


I'm not arguing, but I'd still be reluctant to lay the faults of MKSM on assumptions that Kreuger wasn't a fan, or well informed. Mechanics of the story like Kung Lao's rivalry with Liu Kang, to me, seem very reminiscent of other MK characterizations that have failed to live up to the expectation of a character's role. We've seen Liu Kang be the idiot hero in games like MK4/MKG; Shujinko and Taven both had moronic naivite, too. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Kreuger was working under edicts from the MK team.


To Palmiotti and Gray's credit -- the MK team have more than their fair share of blemishes, Armageddon coming immediatley to mind. Let's not misproportionately represent the foibles of one writer's work on one game, versus the many bungles of the MK Team...


You haven't heard of Daredevil, Painkiller Jane, Deadpool, or Ash? Wow!


You couldn't be more wrong -- especially in comics!

I appreciate your arguments, but potentially like Kreuger, you might be a little green on the details.

Of course I've heard of Daredevil, Deadpool, and Painkiller Jane. I've just never heard anyone talk about Palmiotti or Grey's work on those books. When people talk about Daredevil especially, they only mention Frank Miller, Kevin Smith, Brian Michael Bendis, and Ed Brubaker.
In fact, Palmiotti wasn't even the writer on Daredevil or Ash. He was the INKER!
In case anyone reading doesn't know what an inker does, they take the real artist's pencil work and trace over it in cleaner lines. His job was basically just to take stuff that penciller Joe Quesada had already drawn and make minor improvements.
And as far as the characterizations - the difference is, Shaolin Monks depicting him as a jerk was different from the norm. He's usually portrayed one way, and that game portrayed him another way.

On the other hand, Liu Kang and Shujinko are ALWAYS naive and a bit dumb, that's what makes them the "innocent and pure" heroes, they don't distrust people and they follow those who claim to be authority figures working for the side of good, without questioning it, because they're not used to being tricked. It's not out of character in their cases.

And I disagree that Taven was ever portrayed that way. Taven was more of a self-centered and reluctant character and didn't really want to listen to or follow anyone, especially not the villains. He was much more intelligent and likable than Liu or Shujinko.

Palmiotti's often been referenced as a contributing collaborator to the process of Smith & Quesada's work, which required a lot of translation from Smith's streamlined scripts. Palmiotti is well known for his collaborations with Quesada in co-creating Painkiller Jane, and forming Marvel Knights. I wouldn't want to give him too much credit for work he inked, but I think his progress to writer is evident in those other works.


But those existing characterizations were mostly implied by his role in the games, and nothing specifically tangible. Shaolin Monks, like most other more immersive core MK materials, do very poor jobs to translate the intended role and stature of a character.

I think very few characters really struggle to represent themselves within the games. I think those issues of dialogue and characterization are just as specific, if not moreso, to the MK team.

Again; Armageddon. A massive blemish!

...Jax vs Steel would be awesome.