i don't think it was broken. i thought it was very solid and balanced.

Lack of ground game led to lots of 50/50 mix ups.
Scorpion's Pi Gua was too safe plus the shove in it combined with the hellfire = guaranteed victory everytime.
Certain amount of characters are far too overpowering compared to others. Characters like Kitana and Cyrax don't stand a chance against characters like Sonya and Reptile.

That's just to name a few things. Check out HDTran's thread about the flaws of MKDA's/MKD's gameplay which can be found here: http://www.mortalkombatonline.com/content/forum/showmessage.cds?id=20494

Drahmin is top tier because of his backdash, especially since you can combine that with D + 2 which is the same move in all of his fighting styles. Iron Club is his best style. Personally, I seem to notice that his throw can be abused since he uses his foot which is low and the lack of a ground game makes the opponent automatically get up. Also, Iron Club has a Neijin and his throw is a pop up. I'm not sure what else is there. Either way, hope this helps.



That's because you have no idea how the game is at high level play to see the cheapness while I have a good enough idea.

wow, thats really rough. i had no idea drahmin was considered high tier, when i played him a bit, i thought he was terrible. also i agree that sonya and reptile would dominate cyrax..hes easliy at the lowest tier, because he has very low damage combos and they are actually hard to do. his special moves are not that great, however he does have impale but its the thrusting version which takes twice as long.

however, kitana was the only character who could throw her weapons and impale! thats got to count for something.

i know sonya/hsu hao were high tier, but i heard a rumor that bo rai cho was very high tier in deadly alliance can you tell me why? i think hes average, or is it because of a puke puddle glitch? where you side step, puke, side step, puke, is that why he is high tier? an infinite, sort of?

im planning to start a highest deadly alliance combo's thread, it sucks that there isnt one yet!!! was there ever one??

Can you do the style change bug to fly in this or in MKD?

lol, very nicely said Sub-Zero_7...

...you missed the sarcasm...in my original post...

Yeah, I didn't think Drahmin was that good either. His backdash is the best and I think the reason for that is because he has Iron Club on his right arm so it would be strange for him to be on the other side, especially if he were using the Iron Club weapon style. That glitch could be fixed if the backdash animation were different such as hopping back without changing sides.

Kitana's impale is both good and bad, more so bad. Either way, she's just not that great overall. Bo' Rai Cho is the second best in MKDA, because he has the Puke Puddle which is part of the infinite combo he has. Also, Drunken Fist is his best fighting style due to it being rather cheap. When using Drunken Fist, I suggest using 3, 2 in terms of combos as that has a knockdown effect. I'm not sure what else is there to it, but I guess it lets for a free Puke Puddle? Maybe I can't explain too well when it comes to him, but Drunken Fist is definitely his best style in MKDA and is really good.

Regarding the Deadly Alliance highest combos thread, I don't know....



I'm not sure what you mean by that.



Obviously. You didn't seem to put any sarcasm in it. Better luck next time.

so you say bo rai cho is the second best because of his puke puddle glitch? i see.

also, you say scorpion has a glitch where he can shove in pi gua and then get a free hell fire? can he also get a free spear as well? i thought i heard that you could.

so you say bo is the second best, who is the first? is it sonya? i would definitly bet that sonya is the best. i mean,

1. she has a power up
2. she has a reversal
3. she has very high damage combos that are easy to pull off
4. she has a ridiculous 31% damage combo in kali sticks
5. she has a great 50/50 game in tae kwon do.
6. the 'downard axe kick' which is 2 in tae kwon do, comes out fast and sets them up for huge 41%+ damage combos.
7. her kiss of death is rather buggy, you can do it infitely if you juggle them with the 1,1,4 combo in kenpo. also, you can abuse the kiss of death in the air, gaining even more damage. after you kiss them in the air, you can power up, getting even MORE damage.
8. her 31% combo in kali sticks works wonders even against the wall, adding even more damage. (the highest i found for her against the wall was 76%) i know nitara has more, but her combo starts with a punch, which is risky if you get reversed you are open to more damage.

also i think hsu hao is definitly up there, top 5 at bare minumum, more like top 3.

anyway, what other broken things are there? i heard that frost has some sort of infinite combo where if you hit them with the up+2 in tong bei in a certain manner you can freeze them as soon as they hit the ground when they land on the other side, and you can keep repeating this, etc.

also with li mei, did you know if you time her kartwheel correctly while the opponent is in the air, it will hit 3 times instead of 2? not sure if this is a bug or a feature, cause in decpetion it only hits twice (although 3 times for shujinko, odd..) anyway i found an open air 36% for her with this karthweel wierdness, and a 44% wall.

Bo' Rai Cho is the second best because of Drunken Fist and the Puke Puddle.

Scorpion is #1 because of Pi Gua and Hellfire. Like I said before, doing the shove (which he has in Pi Gua) guarantees a free Hellfire. Both moves are unduckable and unblockable. I'm not sure if the shove tracks but if it doesn't, just use universal tracking (holding up before attacking or whatever). Pretty much all of the moves and combos (not style branching ones) in Pi Gua are backdashable thus making it really safe. Attack 4 in Pi Gua is a low kick that guarantees a free Hellfire if it connects. But when you get right down to it, yeah, it comes down to shove and hellfire. It pretty much guarantees an easy ass victory thus making him # 1 in MKDA. Since shoves and such were taken out in MKD, Scorpion was no longer #1. About the free spear thing...um....yeah, I guess...but the spear is kinda slow and might not be fast enough to get the opponent while he/she is stunned by the shove.

Sonya is the only top-tier female in MKDA. You pretty much listed a lot of the main strengths that make her great. Tae Kwon Do is her best style due to the 50/50, reversal, 2, and (B + 4, CS) combo but Kali Sticks is also good too due to the 31% damage combo you mentioned as well as moves like B + 3 and D + 3. Kenpo has the Neijin, yes, but she doesn't really have anything safe which hurts her there but overall, she's fine. I wish she had more of her specials, but she's fine as she is due to her styles.

Hsu Hao seems to be considered top tier, but I thought he was the highest mid tier. Either way, he's quite good with his high damaging (37%) style branching combo. Funny thing is that he can do B + 2, B + 2, throw in Wrestling which is an unlisted combo. On a side note, Johnny Cage can do 1, 1, throw in Karate, but that's pretty shitty. Hsu Hao's B + 2, B + 2, throw combo on the other hand, isn't shitty. In fact, from Shuai Chiao, you can do 1, 1, 2, CS, B + 2, throw and mix that up with 1, 1, 2, CS, B + 2, CS, B + 2. Wrestling has the reversal and a one button throw (attack 1) that does like 18 damage so that's good. I personally find D + 2 to be a good poke move in Wrestling and I kind of found it backdashable.

About Frost, yes, she is the only other character in MKDA who has an infinite combo. I didn't know how it worked though, but if that's how it works, thanks for the heads up.

I didn't know about the Li Mei's kartwheel thing. Either way, she sucks in MKDA. Even though she's not really high up tier wise in MKD, she's far better in MKD due to being able to do more damage plus the free throw from her kartwheel kick and of course her weapon style, Kunlun Dao in which 2, B + 3, and D + 1 are your best friends in that style.

Anyway, if I'm not mistaken, the top tiers in MKDA are as follows: Scorpion, Bo' Rai Cho, Reptile, Drahmin, Sonya, Shang Tsung

I think I saw Frost below Hsu Hao, but I don't understand why. I don't really find anything particularly useful with her. *shrugs*

well first of all let me say thank you for replying with such an sightful opinion because i know not many would even bother to talk with me about this game that is almost 3 years old.

anyway,

i thought frost was slightly high tier because

1.she has a free combo special move that hits low, if im not mistaken, she is the only character not only in deadly alliance but also in ANY mortal kombat game to have a special move that give a free combo and hits low? (her ground freeze).

2. yuan yang has some great, fast, safe moves, such as 4,4,u+3, which is very safe and the 4,4 hits middle. i usually like to use 4,4,u+3 then backdash, impale.

3. she has a power up.

4. she has the quick animation impale, the stabbing imaple, which i find very useful to use right after the above mentioned 4,4,u+3 in yuan yang.

5. she has a nice low attack in tong bei which i believe is b+1, its called the 'corkscrew attack' or something, that looks odd and like it would hit middle but it actually hits low and does decent damage, and knocks them down.

6. i might be mistaken on this one, but i think the 'dual stabbing lounge' or whatever in daggers , i think the button is simply 2, has a deceptive long range and interrupts some of the attacks of many characters.

7. the u+1 in tong bei is slightly delayed popup move, which makes it hard to reverse, i mean if the enemy hits the reverse button right away, meaning as soon as they finish thier attack and your blocking, and you come out with the u+1, they will get hit by it and wont catch her arm.

8. also her 1,1,1,1 dagger combo all hits middle, so does the very fast and tracking 'stamping blade' which is u+1 in daggers, she has a lot of middle attacks!

also its too bad you say li mei is lower tier cause i thought she was great, her baji quan combo opened with a very fast kick, also i mentioned her kartwheel, if you time it right it hits 3 times and adds some extra damage.


yes about hsu hao's backdrop move in wrestling, i think when he moves in to lift them up it might interrupt some attack animations giving him an advantage. yes i love his 37% combo its relatively safe at the end of the sun moon animation you can backdash and try again or do a throw.


now you mention that shang tsung is high tier, it is because he can soul steal in mid air and leech alot of life every time he pops you up? i didnt find a very high damage combo with him to justify a high tier, i know he has a reversal, so maybe he could reverse, pop up, and then soul steal? personally i think his fireballs are worthless. i know he has impale but its the slower thrusting impale that i thought wasnt worth much?


also drahmin, hes good because of his power up, that punch the ground for a free hit special, and the back dash bug? i see

now reptile, thats odd, i know he has some good 40%+ combos but why is he so great? his style branch does include a low attack but its easy enough to block , is there a 50/50 in there somewhere? his impale is slow to me, so i dont think thats why. his lizardball move? i think its slightly usefull but not his acid spit.


also, you say sonya is the only top tier female? what about nitara man? she has a legit 100% combo! and she is very fast! however, her combo does open with a punch which is vulnerable to extra damage from a reversal. her kama has GREAT 50/50's, probobly one of the best 50/50 games in a weapon stance ive ever seen. also, her throw leeches life! maybe she is also high tier?

In one of them, I believe MKDA, MK2KungBroken recorded some videos of hitting the style change at the right time as you tap to jump and it caused the character rejump in midair, effectively flying around.

Very interesting observations nukesgoboom. Although the Ground Freeze has its uses, it's not quite that fast and since it hits low, it can be jumped over. Also, it's sidesteppable the move itself isn't that good to use at closer ranges.

Yuan Yang, imo, is her best style due to the reasons you mentioned though not specifically the 4, 4, U + 3 stuff, but yeah, that is a good combo to use. Her Neijin isn't really that spectacular, especially compared to the Neijin that characters like Nitara and Kung Lao have. Even so, at least it kind of makes things sort of evened out for Yuan Yang.

Tong Bei isn't that impressive to me overall and I guess B + 1 is ok, but I think that after testing it a bit, her D + 3 is actually better than I thought. U + 1 can be good I guess, but it's also quite risky so I would use a move like that rather sparingly.

Her Daggers are decent, but rather limited in the end. Even so, it's good to have an all mid-hitting, easy-to-do combo like 1, 1, 1, 1.

Li Mei's quick snap kicks in Baji Quan are pretty good actually, but overall, Baji Quan is very limited and can't really stand on its own too well. If they plan on bringing Baji Quan back, they need to get it right as Baji Quan isn't really like the way they motion captured it. It's a direct, aggressive style of Kung Fu favored by generals and such and uses lots of elbows and shoulder attacks and such. It's very much on the closer-ranged side and has powerful movements.

I see Li Mei as a more fluid and speedy based character so I don't think Baji Quan really suits her well, but that's just my opinion. Liu He Ba Fa on the other hand is quite fluid as it has those wonderful Xing Yi, Ba Gua, and Tai Chi elements. But anyway, Li Mei does have some good stuff, yes, but she's not quite so....wholesome overall.

I'm not sure what the given reasons are for Shang Tsung being high tier, but I have my own. With the Snake style, moves like 4 and B + 2 are useful as they are both mid hits. I pretty much like to do the 4, B + 2 combo and maybe 1, 1, 4, B + 2 combo. I think it's the 1, 1, 4, B + 2 combo that doesn't always quite connect so I try to keep it short and sweet. It's too bad Snake didn't have any safe pokes unless you want to count B + 2 as one since I kind of find it to be a bit like that, being kind of safe and all. And I guess if the opponent tries to block and then go for the offensive that you can pull out the Soul Steal. Anyway, Crane is his best style, imo, not only due to the reversal, but coming up with some decent damage by 2...2..1, 1, 1, CS. I also like to do 1, 1, 2, CS..2...1, 1, 1, CS from Snake to Crane to Straight Sword. I can't really say much for Straight Sword as I don't use it too often. All of his other moves are pretty useless, yeah. Overall, Shang Tsung's a fast guy with some good tools.

About Drahmin, you got it. Don't forget that his D + 2 move is the same in all of his styles so if you want to play a bit of a safe game, use that and backdash with it. Use all of his specials except for his Super Uppercut since it sucks.

Reptile's Crab style is raved about. I don't really know the details, sorry. His D + 4 move is kind of fast, sneaky and I guess it can guarantee a free throw or something else. I guess maybe it has to do with mixups that makes Reptile very good.

As for Nitara, yeah, I have been thinking about it actually. Her D + 2 move in Leopard is the same as Sub-Zero's D + 3 move in Dragon which is a great thing as it's a fast, safe poke that you should always backdash with. She is quite fast and all of her styles are pretty good, especially Fu Jow Pai with the very powerful Neijin. 2 in Kama seems to be kind of safe for a mid hitting launch move, but I can't say for sure. I guess maybe she is a potential top tier character, but again, I can't say for sure.

To dreemernj: Wow...that's some weird shit. O_o I never knew about that. Can you link me to the videos?

thanks for replying.

with reptile, i forgot to mention, with his crab stance, b+3 is the most powerful low attack in the game, doing roughly 12.5% damage (if you hit them twice, the damage counted is 25%). thats huge for a low attack!!

another note about power ups, there seems to be 2 kinds. there are the quick power ups that offer roughly 50% more damage, such as sonya's and frosts', which are very quick and take almost no time, also i believe they last a little longer. then there are the kind that kung lao and nitara have, which are longer and more drawn out animation, which offer in some cases 100% (double) the damage, but they definitly do not last as long.

i wanted to mention something about quan chi, now here is another character like sonya who has both a power up and a reversal. now, the thing that i LOVE about quan chi's reversal, is that he has it in his first stance, where you have to be to execute his full style branch, which does 36%. now, if your lucky enough to reverse someone, its easy just to do the 36% style branch, unlike hsu hao who you have to change styles a whopping 2 times to get back to his first style, wasting valueable milliseconds. also, a note about sonya's reversal, how much damage is gurenteed if you catch them with it?

i know there are 2 kinds of reversals, where you catch someones arm, then you are likely gurenteed more damage because they are closer to you, and then there is the leg reversal, where you are not gurenteed as much damage because they are farther away from you with thier leg out.

with sonya, if you catch a leg, ironically you are not gurenteed much damage, even though she is so high tier. i mean, you cant use 2, you cant switch to kali sticks and use the 31% combo, you cant switch to kenpo and start a big guns juggle, your screwed, i think they only thing you can do is the 4,4 in tae kwon do for a measly 12%. now if you catch an arm, you STILL are not guranteed the 2 'downward axe kick' for a juggle, and im sure you cant do the 31% kali combo either. i think the only more damage you can get with an arm is to switch to kenpo and do the big guns juggle (1,1,4,4,kiss,power up,1,1,cs,4,cs=39%).

however the story is different with hsu hao, if you catch a leg, go for the backdrop which is just 1 in wrestling, netting you 19%, if you catch an arm, you can do the full style branch for 37% he has more guranteed damage with his reversal.

i know raiden also has a reversal in his first stance, but there is just something about him that i dont like. i know he has a low attack at the end of his style branch but its easy to block. besides the full style branch, raiden is really crappy on damage, i think his highest is only 34%. i hate to say it but i think he is lower tier.

also its funny with reversals, you can not catch ANY strike in the weapon stance, even if its a kick or something. like if sub zero kicks you with his kori blade out, you cant catch it with a reversal.

No problem. Interesting stuff. I don't think Sonya is much about damage but more so fast, cheap moves. Although 4, 4 in Tae Kwon Do doesn't do much damage, it pushes the opponent away at a good distance. And remember, you can do 4, B + 3, 3 instead of 4, 4.

Quan Chi is pretty good to use. It seems that his throw is kind of abusable in that you can do it again and again as soon as the opponent starts to get up. Him having the reversal in his first style is great like you said. Tang Soo Do is good with mix ups while Escrima is one I find better with damage, especially due to the Neijin.

Speaking of Neijin's, I wouldn't say that Nitara's and Kung Lao's do double damage. It's more like 4x normal damage which is a lot. I understand what you mean about Reptile's move. That is some good shit along with him having the reversal in Crab.

Raiden is decent actually. He isn't without his weaknesses of course, but you can't just rely on his style branching combos. I guess one thing you could do is with Nan Chuan, use something like 2, B + 2...F + 2 to push the opponent away. His Jujutsu style has good sweeps. I think he is pretty good to use overall. I'd say he's more of a damage character.

lol..yeah about the ineffectiveness of the reversals on any attacks from the weapon styles. I wish Sub-Zero kept his Back Kick and Sweep Kick as they were in MKDA for Kori Blade in MKD. Either way, Sub-Zero is much better in MKD thanks to the Ice Clone, improvements in all of his styles and doing more damage. I wish Dragon in MKD had the same properties as it did in MKDA except that they could have the D + 1 and D + 4 moves from MKD's Dragon style as well as have the 1, 1, 2, CS combo. If Sub-Zero's Dragon style in MKD had the best things from both versions of Dragon, I'd say he'd be better and I would actually like using Dragon more in MKD. Shotokan in both games should have some lows in the combos or at least mid attacks that can hit crouching opponents.

heh also about deadly alliance is that there are not as many unlisted combos. in deception, like 25% of the characters have some sort of unlisted combo that your supposed to 'figure out' based on thier style branch. personally i think thats not fair, all of the moves of a fighter should be listed in the moves list, at least for reference. the only unlisted combo im aware of in deadly alliance is the hsu hao wrestling b+2,b+2. off the top of my head i cant honestly remember if there is another unlisted in that game, i think midway simply forgot to put it in the moves list! however thier goal in deception was obviously to hide some combos, which i think is lame.

hey i think sub zero was just fine in deadly alliance. i loved his ice shaker move, it was GREAT, if you finish a combo against a blocking opponnent, just backdash and use the ice shaker, and if they are trying to attack you, half the time they would walk right into it. like do 1,2,b+2 in shotokan, if the block it, backdash, ice shaker. hah! also, the ice shaker led to some nice damage combos for him, such as this one: start in shotokan:1,2,b+2,b+2,ice shaker,cs,power up,1,2,cs=33%

about mavado, with some of his combos, after you execute them and get the % damage done, its wrong because it stops counting right before the last blow, for example, his 'sacred band' combo from wing chun to hookswords, 1,2,4,cs,4,b+3 the game says this does 28% damage but thats clearly wrong, because if you do it 3 times against an enemy with full health, thier health bar will replenish therefore proving it does at least 34%. this is not just for mavado, it happens for other characters as well. also the u+3 in hookswords is very sneaky and should be abused often, its a 2 hit 1 button thing, it hits low and then high for 15%.

johnny cage, i think is low tier. i dont see any thing with him, his highest damage combo is around 33%, his special moves are not that spectacular, you cant even juggle with the 'johnny uppercut'. i think he has some mids in jeet kune do, but not in karate, or maybe im wrong, what do you think about johnny?

now kenshi, im having trouble placing him in my mind. he has a power up, yes, and his special moves are very interesting. in fact, his tele slam is a great pop up because you can hit them twice, and they will still 'float' instead of flip over and hit the ground. thus the highest i have found with him is 70%: start in san shou:power up,cs,tele slam, 4,4,tele slam,1,2=70%. now as far as middle attacks go, i think his katana has some middles, and tai chi perhaps, but im guessing san shou does not.

Yeah, I agree that all the combos should be listed and not hidden. Btw, in MKDA, Mavado has an unlisted move in Wing Chun with B + SM. It's a sidestepping backhand move that hits high. Dairou has that move in MKD with the U + 4 command, but Dairou's version of it pushes the opponent away and knocks them to the ground unlike Mavado's, which just pushes them a bit.

Sub-Zero is considered low-tier in MKDA, because his only real useful style is Dragon. D + 3 is his best poke as it's a mid/low poke that's fast and safe with the backdash. 1 and 1, 1 are backdashable and I think maybe 1, 1, 2 is backdashable. D + 2 may have had weak range, but it was good to have a mid hitting launch move. It's too bad that move changed in a bad way in MKD. *sighs* Also, U + 4 in MKDA's Dragon style hits mid but hits high in MKD's version. *sighs once again* What's makes Sub-Zero's Dragon style in MKDA his best style is the speed, safeness, Neijin, and mix ups since he has (1, 2, 3), (1, 2, U + 4), and (1, 2, 4) to mix up amongst the high, mid, and low stuff. B + 1 in both games suck ass and I think it should be replaced with something better, maybe some kind of mid attack.

Shotokan had limited usefulness. At least 3 was a mid attack in MKDA. It's a high attack in MKD unfortunately. The 3, F + 3 combo was good for pushing the opponents away. His Shotokan style is better overall in MKD due to having more mixups with the combos, but 3 really needs to be a mid attack once again. Another improved thing about Shotokan is that its D + 1 attack is more useful than MKDA Shotokan's D + 1 attack. It's not a poke move that you just bash over and over again. It's more of the type of quick poke in which you move towards the opponent and poke and move on from there whether its to try to get a throw or maybe to step back and pull out an Ice Clone.

Kori Blade was his worst style in MKDA due to limited usefulness. It was more limited in usefulness than Shotokan. 4, 4 was a pretty fast and short combo though. B + 4 was a good sweep. Some people do like his 3 a bit, but I think it's crap. Kori Blade in MKD though is his best style. He has D + 3 which is a mid hitting crouching attack that has the blade spinning so it tracks and it pushes the opponent away a bit. It's basically the equivalent of a good safe poke move though sometimes, I don't find it to be quite so safe at close range. Nonetheless, it's a good move. B + 2 and D + 2 are great, more so B + 2 as it's a great mid hitting launch attack that can lead to Sub-Zero's most damaging combos in MKD. 1, B + 1 in MKD is far better than 1, B + 1 in MKDA, because 1, B + 1 in MKD plants the opponent thus setting up for a 50/50 mix up whether it'd be a throw or a poke move or whatever...Versatile is the best MKD Sub-Zero player so hopefully he'll see this thread and give his Sub-Zero insights. Anyway, the combo I like to do with Sub-Zero in MKDA is go from Dragon to Kori Blade by doing: Neijin, 1, 1, 2..D + 2..1, 2, CS for 37% damage.

About Mavado, yeah, I noticed that too. It's really strange. Either way, he does do some good damage there. You don't need to do U + 3 to do that 2 hit move. You can just do 3 unless you're trying to use universal tracking. Then again, 3 looks like it'd track so I don't see the point of it. Anyway, Johnny Cage is considered lower mid tier if I'm not mistaken. I don't really like using him. I think he's not that great either. I agree about the special moves. He has mids in all of his styles. Karate had D + 1, 2, U + 4, U + 3, and maybe even 3 as his mids.

Kenshi is quite good. I don't like using him in MKD, but I like using him in MKDA. When using him, I just stick to Tai Chi as I like to mix up his launch moves with the Telekinetic Slam and finishing it off with the Telekinetic Toss. The strongest combo I like to do there is Tele-slam..B + 1...Tele-slam..B + 1..Teleslam..3..Tele-toss which does like 46% damage without the Neijin and 60% damage with the Neijin. Awesome combo. I didn't know about shit like that. I guess I spent too much focus on Tai Chi, heh..Imo, Tai Chi is his best style while Katana is his second best style.

I tried doing the combo you put down, but I couldn't get the 2 to connect as the opponent was knocked down. The highest one I could do was Neijin in San Shou, CS, Tele-slam...4, 4..Tele-slam..4, 3 for 61% damage. All of his styles have mids in them and I think attack 1 in Katana is the only high attack he has in that style. 3 and D + 3 in Tai Chi look like mids to me as well as 3 in the B + 2, 3 combo. B + 1 looks like a mid, but it may be a high attack. I'm not sure. In MKD, it's definitely a high attack which sucks. In San Shou, B + 1 has to be a mid. If not, that'd be some fucked up shit like how B + 4 in Jade's Kuo Shou style are high attacks when they should be mids. I'll just have to test out San Shou's B + 1 to see how things are. Aside from B + 1, it seems to me that 3 and F + 3 look like they could be mids, more so 3. F + 3 could be a high attack though it may be a mid. I'm not sure. I'll have to test those out as well.

You guys honestly disserve some dragon points for such awesome analysis on some of the combatants strengths and weaknesses.

Very well explained and detailed.

Hopefully Sub-Zero will be higher tier in the next game (or games Im sure ), although he feels a bit heavy to play with, I still have fun with his dragon style.

As for Sonya, well, she is tough, she is blond, and she has always kicked, ass, she is a power-bomb.

Yeah definately. If more MK fans were able to hold discussions like this the MK team would HAVE to make the gameplay better.

Well, I like that Sub-Zero is solid in both MKDA and MKD and at least in MKD, not only is he solid, but he can compete well against some other characters. He just needs certain improvements and touch ups here and there and he'll be set.

Sonya on the other hand needs to be toned down some. She can still be good and kickass but also solid. Her B + 4, CS combo was fucking broke even though it does 18% damage (If I remember correctly). I hope that she'll have her other moves like the Cartwheel/Front Flip Kick, Ring Blast, Diagonal Bicycle Kick, Square Wave Punch, and Leg Grab. She doesn't need the Flying Kick. When it comes to the Kiss of Death...sure, I guess. Oh and TKD should be touched on aside from the B + 4 move.

thanks very much for your kind words,queve and dreemernj, but i have to be honest here, i think deadly alliance is far less broken that deception is, period.

oh and hey nice sub zero combo, Sub-Zero_7th, but im sure you know of this one:

dragon:
power up,cs,cs,1,2,4,cs,2,cs=39%

i agree that sub zero is a solid character in both deadly alliance and deception. i really miss his ice shaker move though, id take that over his ice clone anyday.

anyway let me try and make a list of what we have so far:

deadly alliance v deception.

pros of deadly alliance:

1. the juggle system is much more 'tame', overall average damage for characters is less, when you hit someone in the air more than a few times, the flip over and hit the ground, ending the combo.

2. throws are blockable

3. throws do less damage

4. throws do not pop up

5. there are almost no 'unlisted' or hidden combos, pretty much everyone's moves are right out in the open, there is no subtltey.

6. only 1 character has over 100% damage (nitara with a power up), deception has at least 3 (li mei, shujinko (not on gamecube however) and sindel, not including infinites.

7. as far as i know, there is only one 'infinite combo',frosts', (u+2 in tong bei, use the ground freeze while they are in the air, and it will freeze them as soon as they land, youll know when you get it when they stand up backwards, frozen) which requires incredible timing and luck, and depending on how the camera arcs to follow the opponnent after the u+2 in tong bei they might be able to block, so its not that bad. this is much easier to do against the wall than on open ground.

in decpetion at least 15+characters have infinite combos, so just 1 isnt bad at all.

8. side stepping twice cancels any special attack delay. with almost any special attack, you can side step twice, and then use that special attack again, canceling delay. try this with kitana, sonya, or bo rai cho, and they can fan lift, kiss, and puke puddle for eternity. you might be able to find an infinite in there somwhere, so be warned. for example try bo rai cho's full style branch, and after the last hit when the opponnent goes sky high, puke puddle, repeat, etc.

however, this is also present in the xbox/ps2 version of deception.

hey its too bad that your having trouble with that kenshi combo i posted, Sub-Zero_7th, but i found another one that does more damage and something else.

check out this kenshi oddity:
san shou:
power up,cs,cs,teleslam,b+2,b+2,teleslam,cs,cs,1,2=76%

same combo with no power up, start tai chi:
teleslam,b+2,b+2,teleslam,cs,cs,1,2=49%

that combo does 49% with NO power up, but look at this combo:

san shou:
power up,cs,cs,teleslam,b+2,teleslam,b+2,teleslam,cs,cs,1,2=69%

now with no power up:
katana
teleslam,b+2,teleslam,b+2,teleslam,1,2=55%

my point is that kenshi's highest combo does less damage with no power up than a different combo ALSO with NO power up. wierd, i guess the power up duration cancels out half way through the second combo. i believe this gives kenshi the highest damage combo with NO power up used in the open air, of any character! (sonya i believe has the highest damage for wall combo with no power up, and nitara has both the highest damage open air and wall combo with a power up). this is SO BITTERLY ironic because kenshi HAS a power up. weirdness!



here is a video of kenshi's 55%, which i think is the highest, open air, non power up combo in deadly alliance:



http://files.filefront.com/kenshi_55_highest_no_neijin_op/;4656661;;/fileinfo.html
or
http://tinyurl.com/7v6vw

anyway tell me what you think.

That was awesome!

Add a Tai Chi 3 before the first teleslam and it's over 60 no Neijin!

over 60 without a Neijin??? shit...that's fucking crazy...At least I had the right idea about incorporating Tai Chi's attack 3 somewhere in that combo even though I'm sure that many others have already thought of that long before I have...

To nukesgoboom: great vid, man. Very interesting insights on Kenshi. It really gets me thinking about his tier level placement in this game.

As for Sub-Zero, his Ice Clone is technically better because it sets up for mind games and such. I like using it more than I do the Ice Shaker, but that's just me. I'm familiar with the combo you put. There's one that does a bit more damage. It goes like this:

In Dragon: Neijin, CS, CS, 1, 2, B + 2...B + 2..CS..1, 2, CS = 41% damage. Funny and odd thing with Sub-Zero in MKDA is that sometimes, I can actually get 4, 4 from Kori Blade in after doing the 1, 2, 4, CS, 2, CS combo and it actually counted as part of the combo.

I like how MKD has more allowed juggles, but it shouldn't have been quite as free as that. It should be varied for the characters, imo. Aside from Frost, Bo' Rai Cho has an infinite combo in which he does his style branching combo then does the Puke Puddle then repeats the thing over and over again. I've never been able to do it, but I'm sure someone who's much better at the game than me can do it.

Drahmin is the only character in MKDA that comes to mind when it comes to throws that have a pop up. I would say he, Quan Chi and Nitara have the best throws in MKDA, but I could be wrong.

hey konqrr what a pleasant surprise:o)

when i add the tai chi 3 like you suggested, i cant use a 3rd teleslam, they just flip over. so when i add the tai chi 3, i get this:

start in tai chi:

teleslam,b+2,3,cs,teleslam,1,2=49%

if you strike them twice or more after a tele slam, you cant use a 3rd teleslam in the combo, you can only hit them once you know what i mean? am i doing what you were thinking of?

anyway, i spoke to soon, and i found a higher kenshi one to the one i posted above.

here it is:

tai chi:
teleslam,4,teleslam,4,cs,teleslam,1,2=56%

however, youll notice at the last gut stab, that instead of flipping over again in the air, the opponnent will take the gut stab and sort of 'sink' into the ground. im pretty sure that attack is still valid and cant be blocked, but im not postive. so, you decide.

here is the video for what im talking about


http://files.filefront.com/kenshi_56_MKDAavi/;4657742;;/fileinfo.html
or
http://tinyurl.com/7d599



also there are some more things i wanted to bring up with deadly alliance.


1. did you guys know sonya can juggle with her scoripon tail kick (b+4 in kenpo)? as soon as you hit the enemy with the b+4 in kenpo, you can either use the u+2 or simply 4 to juggle again, then you should kiss, power up, then 1,1,cs,4,cs for about 30% damage. i had no idea until know that you could actually juggle with that kick.

2. something very important about wall combos, did you know that taller characters, such as jax, quan chi, and raiden, cannot be rolled against the wall so easily for wall combos? shorter characters such a li mei, kung lao, and frost can easily be rolled against the wall for extra damage. take this for example, with frost, start in yuan yang against the wall, use u+3, then do 4,4,1,1,cs,1,1,1. youll be able to roll shorter characters like li mei for extra damage, but taller ones like raiden will be able to stand up and block after enough hits against the wall.

3. however playing a shorter character isnt always bad. for example, if your playing as frost, and your against li mei, and you catch her in the beginning of your full style branch combo (1,1,2,2,cs,4,1,1,cs,1,1,1 in tong bei), sometimes the second hand strike , or 1, in yuan yang will miss, giving li mei enough time to successfully block the rest of your style branch (the daggers part). this is insane! ive only encountered this problem with li mei, but it might happen with other 'short' characters. it seems the stats portion of the character select screen isnt all just eye candy, the height number actually means something.


ultimately, im thinking seriously about starting a biggest gurenteed combos thread for deadly alliance, its really such a shame that there isnt one. do you guys think thats a good idea?

to Sub-Zero_7th: i still dont understand what you and konqrr mean by the 3 in tai chi. im trying every which way to include it right before the teleslam but its not working later on when they flip over in the air, ending the combo. can you give me the combo on paper and ill cap it with my incredibly shitty camera?

thanks for the 'great vid' compliment but you know that was some seriously shitty quality capping : ) LOL... i didnt even compress the video, (hence 3 mb for only 10 seconds), just think how crappy it would be if i had actually compressed it :\ heehee you can even hear me clicking the change style button.

i have a geforce4 ti 4800, can i use that and buy an adapter and plug the video cable from my gamecube into the video card? not sure how konqrr does it.

also nice sub zero combo. i think thats his highest right?

ok, so bo rai cho DOES have an infinite.

ugh drahmin again. his power up seems to be the most powerful however, i mean some of his 1 hit strikes do over 400% damage with that power up.

anyway let me know if you want any more deadly alliance combos capped with my shitty canon camera, im more than happy to do it :|

just wanted to say i made that deadly alliance combo thread ive always dreamed of making, its here:

http://www.mortalkombatonline.com/content/forum/showmessage.cds?id=66345

please drop by and share any combos youd like, ill be glad to put your name right next to it if you'd like.

Sub-Zero_7th, i put your name next to that 41% sub zero combo, thanks again for sharing it.