Well saidk, SleepWalKer. Heck, I don't even play other fighter games and I can tell that Deadly Alliance's fighting was flawed- quite(spelling?) possibly, Deception's.
Oh, and I really liked how ROTFL@YOU wrote that he hated "kids" complaining about the figting system considering, well, you know... THE COLLEGE LEVEL ESSAY AND DECONSTRUCTION OF THE FIGHTING SYSTEM!!!!

^ WHOA WHOA WHOA up there..lol

I didn't say I didn't agree with most of the shit said here, I just think it's useless to argue about it here. I understand people are pissed and take this to heart, and wanna let out their frustrations on a message board. I just think writing a letter or e-mail is ALOT more sensible than people crying on here where I doubt it will be heard much.

ROTFL@YOU Wrote: ^ WHOA WHOA WHOA up there..lol I didn't say I didn't agree with most of the shit said here, I just think it's useless to argue about it here. I understand people are pissed and take this to heart, and wanna let out their frustrations on a message board. I just think writing a letter or e-mail is ALOT more sensible than people crying on here where I doubt it will be heard much.

ROTFL@YOU:
Sadly, single people usually don't have a voice, even someone like Rayrokka(worked on Psi-Ops and helped tested MKDA as well as read up on all the issues of MKDA) who went upto the MK staff himself and pointed them the flaws. Midway basically kicked him out for saying such. Now if someone who went upto Midway and said it objectively had that happen to them, do you think a letter would work from another single individual?

However, as a collective whole, players speak volumes. Again, people complaining on the boards about one fatality per character, stage fatalities, movement, characters, etc. is what brought about what MKD is. Two fatalities, stage weapons and death traps, forward dash, and a lot of the brought back cast. These boards as well as other communities is what changed it, Midway has already said time and time again that they visit boards and listen to the players. Hell, even in interviews they reiterate that it was the players who wanted more fatalities, thus them doing it for MKD. We also e-mail them and show link them to these types of threads on a semi-regular basis.

Therefore, players asking for gameplay with specific issues to address does not seem highly unlikely to me.

I love this thread, (i'm aware a lot of the original post was copied from that other thread).
It's great to see people like HDTran, Satyagraha, and Versatile (in the other thread) laying down the law for the blind.

-A little something about opinion-
Opinion doesn't cancel fact. Example: if in my opinion, grass is made from sand, and somebody tells me that the fact is it's made form something completly different, does that mean they're intolerant, or attacking me and my opinions?
Somebody mentioned something about people hiding behind their "opinion" argument, which is a good point, because a lot of people aren't getting it...
The FACT that MK:DA's gameplay was terrible from a competitive point of veiw, and if MK:D has the same it will also be terrible, is not something you can see differently, or have different opinions on. You're either right (in admitting it was poor) or wrong (in denying it).

It is a FACT that if MK:D's gameplay is much the same as MK:DA's, it WILL be bad (from a competitive point of veiw), you can choose to hide this from yourself by throwing around the word "opinion" or not, It really doesn't matter. However, don't say people are attacking your opinions when they tell you the FACTS.

This thread makes sense. It should remain where all can see it. My eyes were opened before, but this thread is useful to help others see DA's faults, and possibly D's.

Great thread. I think many peoples' eyes will open when the game comes online.

VQ

Thanks for the support guys.

I post this question here for everyone, with only two months left and the fighting system looking unchanged, what should be done immediately to salvage Deception in the time-frame that they have that is realistically accomplishable?

This is the following outline I made to fix MKDA as well as make MKD a good game to play that must be addressed before anything else. I know a lot of this can vary from character to character when it comes to frames of certain moves and where they gravitate to (besides the basic jab and basic throws), but I laid some ground rules that I think could make MK more playable and could be done within 2 months of development time.

Fixing Previous Glitches
- Backdash Cancel Removed so that you can't make so many moves safe when its unintended by the system.
- Universal Tracking Removed so that moves that track better or have half-circular, full-circular advantages will actually be useful instead of making jabs and normal mixups that track.
- Characters should no longer land in mid-air.

Announced Additions
- Breaker System has to be skill dependent and not render everything useless, after fixing BDc and Universal tracking, this would do exactly what BDc and Universal tracking did to the movelist. Breakers right now are in most part, useless. If everyone can break 3 combos exactly 3 times in a battle, then there is no leverage for being able to play a good defense. Therefore, make breakers dependent on either height (high, mid, or low), limb (left arm, right arm, left leg, right leg), attack type (punch, kick, elbow) or a combination of those and usable at any time, of course it has a big delay and guessing wrong means you eat damage. Also make sure the character is in the animation of attempting these long enough, otherwise people can spam it freely and not get punished. (ex. I attack with 2 hits, someone tries to counter so I stopped my chain at only 2 predicting the counter, but if the counter recovers faster than I do most of the time, I could never punish the person countering)
- Forward dashing and Backdashing distance is very important, it can be different for different stances. However, Forward dashing should always be more distance than backdashing (Backdash should be 50%-25% less distance than a forward dash). Add crouch dashing that lets you go low, only forward, letting you get under highs, but less distance and you can get hit by mids. Crouch dashing is generally less distance than normal dashing, crouch dashing backwards should be impossible, I don't want the MK team tackling backward crouchdashing unless it's distance is so little that few would ever use it. (like other 3d fighters)

Next I'm going to explain the system that I want MK to ideally get or try to get. We're going to center frame data on two things that are the most important in 3d fighters, the basic jab and the throw. Why? Because frame advantage off of hits and guranteed throws are always a big issue in 3d fighters. So the next few systems are designed to compliment eachother.

Throw System
- Two basic throws for each character: One done with 1+3, the other done with 2+4. 1+3 throw is broken by pressing 1. 2+4 throw is broken by pressing two. The execution frames of a throw is 8 frames, you can tell which throw it is by which limb extends itself first, but mainly if you get thrown, breaking it is still luck since throws are hard to get off. Basic throws must also be high that can be ducked, not high priority mids. This means that in addition to high and mid poking, you can use throws or lows to mix it up.
- Stance specific throws can be low throws, or just the same as basic throws with more damage and/or different breaks. A stance specific throw for example might require hitting 1+2 to break or be 3-10% stronger. All throws should still adhere to the 8 frame rule until Midway focuses more on the throw game.

Counterhits and Frames
- Counterhits have to be in, period.
- The basic jab, single punch (standing or crouching), is 12 frames to execute, will leave you in advantage no matter what. +1 frame advantage if its blocked, +5 frame advantage if it hits normally, and +8 frames on counterhit. Yes this does mean that if you counterhit with a jab, you get a guranteed throw (assuming you execute it right away after the jab). However, most of the time this isnt possible as shown in VF, jabbing into a throw is hard when you have a 0 frame difference. Jab counterhit frame advantage therefore = 8, throw is 8 frames. No other way to work around it, but breaking will be as easy as Tekken so guranteed throw situations aren't as powerful. The jab is also the FASTEST hit in the game, nothing should be faster than 12 frames other than throws. This gives us a barrier of frame advantage to work with as being able to repeatedly jab someone with frame advantage would be ridiculous. A crouching basic jab is a special mid that can be blocked high or low, but cannot be ducked under by crouching.
- Frame advantage should only be around 1-7 on 50% of the hits and this type of frame advantage is only gained on counterhit, otherwise you are in disadvantage.
- Extremely long execution moves that don't provide anything really, should stagger the opponent and give huge frame advantage on counterhit. These moves can range from 6-14 frame advantage. Some giving guranteed throws while others even giving guranteed jabs and therefore, jab strings.
- All lows should be 14-23 frames. Most being around 19-21 frames. On counterhit, some lows knockdown. The lows that are on the longer end to execute, knockdown normally. The lows that don't knock down on counterhit give 3-6 frame advantage.
- Not counting the basic jab, all highs should be 13-20 frames to execute. Most hovering near 15-16 frames. The basic jab is 12 frames.
- All mids should be 14-21 frames. Most around 16-18 frames to execute. Assuming MKD still has only one launch height, mid launchers should be around 15-20 frames. You should be left disadvantaged anywhere from 6-14 frames, thus some launchers gurantee being thrown or put into a jab string based solely on their execution speed. The faster execution the launcher, the more disadvantaged you will get when it's blocked. Fast and safe jugglestarters should only juggle on counterhit.
- Power moves that are 20-30 frames to execute. As a rule of thumb, Power moves should hover around 10-15% damage. There are two types of powermoves, ones that leave you with an advantage after block, and ones that doesn't. Ones that leave you an advantage after block should hover around 25-30 frames to execute, giving you an advantage of 12-14 frames on the blocker. This gurantees that you can follow up safely with a throw or jab and a few other moves (14 frames), although they still could be blocking and such of course. Powerful moves that don't give you frame advantage and leave you neutral or in disadvantage should execute around 20-24 and be knockdown, knockback normally. The ones that leave you in disadvantage on block, can give you an advantage on counterhit.
- Only jabs, a few pokes (dependent on character), and a few power moves should leave your character advantaged or neutral at 0 frames after being blocked. While being disadvantaged from 1-7 frames does not gurantee anything (a throw is 8 frames, a jab is 12), the person on the offensive can continue his initiative.

Note: By following what is outlined above, all the moves execution animation is now more fluid since you have to spread the execution animation over a longer amount of time. Likewise, due to high and mids being faster than lows and obviously not being able to throw someone while they're striking means that highs and mids will be the meat of the game. Of course you need to take risks sometimes and attempt lows and throws, otherwise you have no mixup game.

String/Chain System
- Jab strings (that begin with a jab) should never ever lead to more than 15% in damage as shown by how people played jabbers like Kung Lao in MKDA. Most jab chains should be around 10%. Some jab strings can launch giving you juggling opprotunities, of course if the enemy suspects this with the new breaker system, they can just counter mid and render the player wanting the launch to regret.
- Full style branch chains, if they must be included and kept, should start with slow attacks, around 25-35 frame for execution of the first hit so that land dial-a-combos will actually take skill, and should leave you disadvantaged on block. Full style branches should not launch and should be capped at 20% at most and leave you severly disadvantaged at 12-20 frames.
- Strings should be preferred over chains, the first hit should not gurantee an entire string unless they are all highs/mids or short. There we use Sonya as an example. Sonya has a chain that goes from highs/mids to low. We want players to use strings to mix it up, not guranteed damage. Therefore, strings that go into low attacks are NOT guranteed.
(example: We now create a string with say for Scorpion. He has two chains off of 1,1 (two basic jabs). He can do 1,1,2 or 1,1,4. 1,1,2 is guranteed as long as the first or second hit gets them, the third hit is a mid punch that launches. 1,1,4 is two high jabs again, and the last one is a low kick. The low kick is not guranteed, even if you have the two 1's already registering, but it gives you a low option in your string. You are left more disadvantaged also if you try the low option.)

Note: Therefore, strings that alternate between high/mids and low, at the point where they hit low is where they should at least not be guranteed, even if the previous hits connected. Some strings that basically have break points, shown before (you can either do a launching mid or low after 1,1.. a break point), should be more plentiful as well as lows being able to be spotted so you can block accordingly, even if the first hits register since that low is not guranteed. Again, the low when hit, can give either frame advantage (therefore the character is in a stagger), knockdown, or continuing the the string.

Indication of Advantage/Disadvantage
- If we're gonna do frame advantage, we need at least one sort of "stun" animation. For MK, this can simply be done universally so that after you hit someone with a counterhit or a normal hit that gives frame advantage, they can see the character stunned/crumpling, this indicating that they have frame advantage.
- For moves that have disadvantage on block and such, it should be shown as such with the move recovering fast or slow in accordance with the disadvantage.

On a final note, a lot of MK's motion capturing is fine, the only problem is it's sped up to the point that it's jerky. By making the moves follow the above rules both in execution and recovery, it therefore makes the moves fluid and gives the players the abilities to see certain moves and block accordingly rather than blindly doing 50/50 mixups. Buffer frames, as Satya has said before should be added and longer than just the recovery of a move to allow motions to be done before a move is done and then a button to finish it off after the move is done to make it feel less jerky as well.

Lastly a side thing, Maximum Damage. Everyone remembers this from MK4, if you do 40% damage, both people fall and the combo stops. I propose the same in MKD, except the damage is capped at 55%. As we all know, every MK except MK4 had infinites (MK4 as well if the Max Damage system wasnt in), putting a safeguard at 55% will gurantee most if not all combos will never be interferred with and only infinites will be broken. So basically you have one chance before an infinite kills you. I wanted to also address a ground game as well as moves made for interrupting and going around/through stuff, but I think it's too late to revamp the system for that unless they're already working on it. With the things mentioned above, it is mainly tweaking speeds of moves, changing chains to strings, revamping the damage of such and making throws change in hit level. Realistically accomplishable in 2 months.

Crazyness.

Uf, good work. I would like to see all this in MKD.

How about making the game mechanics sensitive to the weight and dimensions of the respective fighters? Tossing up Sindel in the air should be different from launching Hotaru, for instance.

VQ

That would be great VQ, but I don't think it's plausible for them to accomplish weight differentiations and therefore different juggle heights as well as open and closed stance advantages/disadvantages in 2 months. Wish they could do it though, but for now we just need them to get the basics down.

Weight?

I've never seen a 210 pound man throw another 210 pound man.

I want an example..

In many other games such as Tekken, Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive, Guilty Gear; characters are ranked in certain weights. Dependent on their weights is how fast they fall to the ground, thus you need different juggles based on the weight of the character due to the fact that some will fall faster than others. So if someone is lighter, you want a juggle to get in more hits, whereas obviously midweight juggles to get more damage and heavy weight juggles where its the hardest to get damage. Sure you can use a juggle that would work on heavy weights for everyone, BUT these juggles are much weaker and there is no reason not to juice out more damage from a juggle if you could, right? (reason why heavyweights drop faster emphasizes the fact that they can't get hurt as much in exchange for their attack speed)
There is also closed and open stance that changes juggles dramatically in Virtua Fighter and Dead or Alive (based on which foot is leading on both sides) that lets certain hits connect better than others. So juggling in other games, accompanied by different juggle height and weight, open and closed stances (based on foot position), different juggle heights, etc. is very very skillful since you always want to do optimum juggle for whichever situation you placed yourself in.

MK doesn't have weights and their closed and open stances only affect ground chains a little, most of the time it doesn't and juggle height is always the same with no off the ground combos. Couple that with string-based juggling, it's a lot more simpler than any other game out there. That's why you can easily use the same juggle over and over for the most damage possible in MK.

very good thread, i too am hoping that most of these things will be implemented for mk7. i hope they never change the story lines as mk is unmatched in that aspect.

Oh, I thought he was talking about throwing opponents around according to their weight of each opponent(you can't hit a man and have him fly 14 feet from you or uppercut a guy that weighs 200 pounds to any distance). Cus realistically all of that is impossible, but it makes sense in a game. I don't play alot of 3D fighting games, so I don't normally tell the difference between any of them, I'll rent some more though just to get a better feel of what you're talking about.

hehe, well if you're more of a 2d player, you should give Guilty Gear a whirl and try juggling someone like a female like Jam and then try juggling Potemkin. It's the exact same idea here, with different weights, different launch heights, different foot positions, you need a handful of juggles for every situation instead of one. It's something I hope MK can arrive to someday, but it's a bit much to ask them for that now when their other basic systems need to be addressed.

Excellent HDTran WINS..Flawless Vicotry..Mercy!?

I read ALL of the long 'Gameplay Primer' and most of the 2nd. I definitely agree that ALOT if not ALL of the 'features' you mentioned should be implemented in some form or anouther, into MK7 (there just ISN'T time for Gameplay Renovation at this point, for Deception)

~Thanks for taking the time out to post ALL that...AND not flame when critqued

Yeah, GG has that weight shit locked down.

In all honesty, I really don't think they can do anything in a month. Infact, if they are still working on major features, then there is a problem with their pipeline and work flow, IMO. Everything should be in the testing and ballance stages as of now.

I don't have a problem with weight distrabution. I have a problem with it being so dramatic as it is in VF. Juggles seam arbitrary at times; i'll think it's guaranteed, then whiff and get hit with a tech trap for huge damge...kind of pisses me off sometimes, lol. Though, I play more VF now than any other fighter, so bleh. My judgement on such sucks ass, too; so it's probably more of an inability, on my behalf, to make proper juggle decisions.

I'm looking forward to seeing how online will affect peoples views. If they will see the damage that the gameplay has on the game. Or, simply wade in denial; holding onto a false sense of "fan-ism."

I think the best thing to do is put energy into breaking down D. Then try and communicate those issues as best one can towards the design team. Hopefully affecting the turn out of MK7. Since it's next gen, there is a greater chance of issues being looked at. Next gens almost always inherently cause dramatic changes in any franchise.

They obviously listen. I'm not so sure if they are listening only to what they want to hear, though. Meh.

Technically, they could do weight variations in the time remaining but the problem is that they wouldn't have enough time to do everything else that needs to be done surrounding that weight difference. I'd be afraid that any rushed changes like that would screw the game up even more. Imagine Bo' not being able to be juggled as effectively but not having any trade off for that. The only thing I can think of that can be done is the removal of bugs. Unfortunately, if the game really is exactly like DA, removing the UT will make the game sidestep punish sidestep punish because it's so damn linear.

Midway made a conscious decision. We all know that after unlocking everything in MK:DA, the game wasn't as much fun because every round was basically the same. Instead of choosing to make gameplay deeper, they added mini-games. This is their effort to make the replay value higher. Will it work? For some. Would making the fighting engine deeper work better? Maybe, maybe not. Not everyone wants MK to be that deep.

With that said, I'm scared to play online. I think I'll stick with my group of friends. I don't play games enough to analyze that deep, but I can really appreciate what you've had to say about all of the flaws/failures and they all make complete sense. I guess I play MK for that exact reason. Rock-Paper-Scissors with some special moves thrown into the mix. It's mindless fun. But incorporating some of the higher level mechanics into the mix would be much more rewarding from the fighting game aspect. I'm not saying I want MK to incorporate all of those mechanics because it won't be as much fun for ME. But I do appreciate you spending the time to explain everything. It showed me what a bad FIGHTING game MK is, but I still find it fun for other reasons.

Anyways, thanks for expanding my mind on how fighting game mechanics really work.

Good thread.

But I can safely say that nothing will change in MK. Not the way we want. Not matter how much we try. It's sad. but you'd have a better chance getting capcom to make new sprite for a non-existant 2D game.

So, as menthol stated long ago, time to ease on out and let those who can overlook the flaws in MK play the game.

I, and many like me cannot over look that flaws mentioned in this thread and play the game. So we gotta go. It's only fair. I'm sure when MK:D comes out it'll be flawed in the gameplay dept but wasn't every MK? God damn....that's sad.

I love MK. I am not just a MK player but I also collect all things MK. I will COLLECT these new mk's.

I doubt I will play them.

Not with CFJ and SF:AC (arcade perfect) online.

Peace.

HDTran Wrote: This is the following outline I made to fix MKDA as well as make MKD a good game to play that must be addressed before anything else. I know a lot of this can vary from character to character when it comes to frames of certain moves and where they gravitate to (besides the basic jab and basic throws), but I laid some ground rules that I think could make MK more playable and could be done within 2 months of development time. Fixing Previous Glitches - Backdash Cancel Removed so that you can't make so many moves safe when its unintended by the system. - Universal Tracking Removed so that moves that track better or have half-circular, full-circular advantages will actually be useful instead of making jabs and normal mixups that track. - Characters should no longer land in mid-air. Announced Additions - Breaker System has to be skill dependent and not render everything useless, after fixing BDc and Universal tracking, this would do exactly what BDc and Universal tracking did to the movelist, kill it. Therefore, make breakers dependent on either height (high, mid, or low), limb (left arm, right arm, left leg, right leg), attack type (punch, kick, elbow) or a combination of those. Also make sure the character is in the animation of attempting these long enough, otherwise people can spam it freely and not get punished. (ex. I attack with 2 hits, someone tries to counter so I stopped my chain at only 2 predicting the counter, but if the counter recovers faster than I do most of the time, I could never punish the person countering) - Forward dashing and Backdashing distance is very important, it can be different for different stances. However, Forward dashing should always be more distance than backdashing (Backdash should be 50%-25% less distance than a forward dash). Add crouch dashing that lets you go low, only forward, letting you get under highs, but less distance and you can get hit by mids. Crouch dashing is generally less distance than normal dashing, crouch dashing backwards should be impossible, I don't want the MK team tackling backward crouchdashing unless it's distance is so little that few would ever use it. (like other 3d fighters) Next I'm going to explain the system that I want MK to ideally get or try to get. We're going to center frame data on two things that are the most important in 3d fighters, the basic jab and the throw. Why? Because frame advantage off of hits and guranteed throws are always a big issue in 3d fighters. So the next few systems are designed to compliment eachother. Throw System - Two basic throws for each character: One done with 1+3, the other done with 2+4. 1+3 throw is broken by pressing 1. 2+4 throw is broken by pressing two. The execution frames of a throw is 8 frames, you can tell which throw it is by which limb extends itself first, but mainly if you get thrown, breaking it is still luck since throws are hard to get off. Basic throws must also be high that can be ducked, not high priority mids. This means that in addition to high and mid poking, you can use throws or lows to mix it up. - Stance specific throws can be low throws, or just the same as basic throws with more damage and/or different breaks. A stance specific throw for example might require hitting 1+2 to break or be 3-10% stronger. All throws should still adhere to the 8 frame rule until Midway focuses more on the throw game. Counterhits and Frames - Counterhits have to be in, period. - The basic jab, single punch (standing or crouching), is 12 frames to execute, will leave you in advantage no matter what. +1 frame advantage if its blocked, +5 frame advantage if it hits normally, and +8 frames on counterhit. Yes this does mean that if you counterhit with a jab, you get a guranteed throw (assuming you execute it right away after the jab). However, most of the time this isnt possible as shown in VF, jabbing into a throw is hard when you have a 0 frame difference. Jab counterhit frame advantage therefore = 8, throw is 8 frames. No other way to work around it, but breaking will be as easy as Tekken so guranteed throw situations aren't as powerful. The jab is also the FASTEST hit in the game, nothing should be faster than 12 frames other than throws. This gives us a barrier of frame advantage to work with as being able to repeatedly jab someone with frame advantage would be ridiculous. A crouching basic jab is a special mid that can be blocked high or low, but cannot be ducked under by crouching. - Frame advantage should only be around 1-7 on 50% of the hits and this type of frame advantage is only gained on counterhit, otherwise you are in disadvantage. - Extremely long execution moves that don't provide anything really, should stagger the opponent and give huge frame advantage on counterhit. These moves can range from 6-14 frame advantage. Some giving guranteed throws while others even giving guranteed jabs and therefore, jab strings. - All lows should be 14-23 frames. Most being around 19-21 frames. On counterhit, some lows knockdown. The lows that are on the longer end to execute, knockdown normally. The lows that don't knock down on counterhit give 3-6 frame advantage. - Not counting the basic jab, all highs should be 13-20 frames to execute. Most hovering near 15-16 frames. The basic jab is 12 frames. - All mids should be 14-21 frames. Most around 16-18 frames to execute. Assuming MKD still has only one launch height, mid launchers should be around 15-20 frames. You should be left disadvantaged anywhere from 6-14 frames, thus some launchers gurantee being thrown or put into a jab string based solely on their execution speed. The faster execution the launcher, the more disadvantaged you will get when it's blocked. Fast and safe jugglestarters should only juggle on counterhit. - Power moves that are 20-30 frames to execute. As a rule of thumb, Power moves should hover around 10-15% damage. There are two types of powermoves, ones that leave you with an advantage after block, and ones that doesn't. Ones that leave you an advantage after block should hover around 25-30 frames to execute, giving you an advantage of 12-14 frames on the blocker. This gurantees that you can follow up safely with a throw or jab and a few other moves (14 frames), although they still could be blocking and such of course. Powerful moves that don't give you frame advantage and leave you neutral or in disadvantage should execute around 20-24 and be knockdown, knockback normally. The ones that leave you in disadvantage on block, can give you an advantage on counterhit. - Only jabs, a few pokes (dependent on character), and a few power moves should leave your character advantaged or neutral at 0 frames after being blocked. While being disadvantaged from 1-7 frames does not gurantee anything (a throw is 8 frames, a jab is 12), the person on the offensive can continue his initiative. Note: By following what is outlined above, all the moves execution animation is now more fluid since you have to spread the execution animation over a longer amount of time. Likewise, due to high and mids being faster than lows and obviously not being able to throw someone while they're striking means that highs and mids will be the meat of the game. Of course you need to take risks sometimes and attempt lows and throws, otherwise you have no mixup game. String/Chain System - Jab strings (that begin with a jab) should never ever lead to more than 15% in damage as shown by how people played jabbers like Kung Lao in MKDA. Most jab chains should be around 10%. Some jab strings can launch giving you juggling opprotunities, of course if the enemy suspects this with the new breaker system, they can just counter mid and render the player wanting the launch to regret. - Full style branch chains, if they must be included and kept, should start with slow attacks, around 25-35 frame for execution of the first hit so that land dial-a-combos will actually take skill, and should leave you disadvantaged on block. Full style branches should not launch and should be capped at 20% at most and leave you severly disadvantaged at 12-20 frames. - Strings should be preferred over chains, the first hit should not gurantee an entire string unless they are all highs/mids or short. There we use Sonya as an example. Sonya has a chain that goes from highs/mids to low. We want players to use strings to mix it up, not guranteed damage. Therefore, strings that go into low attacks are NOT guranteed. (example: We now create a string with say for Scorpion. He has two chains off of 1,1 (two basic jabs). He can do 1,1,2 or 1,1,4. 1,1,2 is guranteed as long as the first or second hit gets them, the third hit is a mid punch that launches. 1,1,4 is two high jabs again, and the last one is a low kick. The low kick is not guranteed, even if you have the two 1's already registering, but it gives you a low option in your string. You are left more disadvantaged also if you try the low option.) Note: Therefore, strings that alternate between high/mids and low, at the point where they hit low is where they should at least not be guranteed, even if the previous hits connected. Some strings that basically have break points, shown before (you can either do a launching mid or low after 1,1.. a break point), should be more plentiful as well as lows being able to be spotted so you can block accordingly, even if the first hits register since that low is not guranteed. Again, the low when hit, can give either frame advantage (therefore the character is in a stagger), knockdown, or continuing the the string. Indication of Advantage/Disadvantage - If we're gonna do frame advantage, we need at least one sort of "stun" animation. For MK, this can simply be done universally so that after you hit someone with a counterhit or a normal hit that gives frame advantage, they can see the character stunned/crumpling, this indicating that they have frame advantage. - For moves that have disadvantage on block and such, it should be shown as such with the move recovering fast or slow in accordance with the disadvantage. On a final note, a lot of MK's motion capturing is fine, the only problem is it's sped up to the point that it's jerky. By making the moves follow the above rules both in execution and recovery, it therefore makes the moves fluid and gives the players the abilities to see certain moves and block accordingly rather than blindly doing 50/50 mixups. Buffer frames, as Satya has said before should be added and longer than just the recovery of a move to allow motions to be done before a move is done and then a button to finish it off after the move is done to make it feel less jerky as well. Lastly a side thing, Maximum Damage. Everyone remembers this from MK4, if you do 40% damage, both people fall and the combo stops. I propose the same in MKD, except the damage is capped at 55%. As we all know, every MK except MK4 had infinites (MK4 as well if the Max Damage system wasnt in), putting a safeguard at 55% will gurantee most if not all combos will never be interferred with and only infinites will be broken. So basically you have one chance before an infinite kills you. I wanted to also address a ground game as well as moves made for interrupting and going around/through stuff, but I think it's too late to revamp the system for that unless they're already working on it. With the things mentioned above, it is mainly tweaking speeds of moves, changing chains to strings, revamping the damage of such and making throws change in hit level. Realistically accomplishable in 2 months.

That entire post was so beautiful, if I was a fine woman I send you some nude pic's!! You would have earned it. Judging by some of the German show attendees, they have indicated that the animation is so much smoother than the previous incarnation and that the fights have a better flow. At least the animation seems to be addressed but lets see if someone will finally post what all of us gameplay hounds have been waiting to read.

That the properties that we have requested have been included and that major game play issues have been fixed . No one I know likes to be caught in an infinite combo, especially if its due to poor gameplay construction. Take care.

mkda??? Wrote: Midway made a conscious decision. We all know that after unlocking everything in MK:DA, the game wasn't as much fun because every round was basically the same. Instead of choosing to make gameplay deeper, they added mini-games. This is their effort to make the replay value higher. Will it work? For some. Would making the fighting engine deeper work better? Maybe, maybe not. Not everyone wants MK to be that deep. With that said, I'm scared to play online. I think I'll stick with my group of friends. I don't play games enough to analyze that deep, but I can really appreciate what you've had to say about all of the flaws/failures and they all make complete sense. I guess I play MK for that exact reason. Rock-Paper-Scissors with some special moves thrown into the mix. It's mindless fun. But incorporating some of the higher level mechanics into the mix would be much more rewarding from the fighting game aspect. I'm not saying I want MK to incorporate all of those mechanics because it won't be as much fun for ME. But I do appreciate you spending the time to explain everything. It showed me what a bad FIGHTING game MK is, but I still find it fun for other reasons. Anyways, thanks for expanding my mind on how fighting game mechanics really work.

=) You're welcome mkda??. I'm just one of those people that still remember being in the arcades with a bunch of buddies on a machine with the early MKs. I mean I played MK1-UMK3 all day because at the time, it was pretty decent and fun. I mean a lot of us and surely you can retrace your days with MK back then when matches were fun and the game was pretty good, you know? Not the best, but it wasn't crap. Sure there were problems with innovations that SF2 came up with like cancels, crossovers, a real throw game, etc. But it was still fun. Malone, tony, guile, satya, verse, bleed, flstyle, and many more I didn't include.. many of us remember that feeling.

Thhe thing with MK now for me is simply that it doesnt live upto the standard of decent anymore. I simply can't get a few friends together like I used to and play the game all day anymore, everyone gets bored of playing rock-paper-scissors, it's mindless. I mean I'm perfectly fine with MK being simple and easy to pick up, I love games like Soul Calibur as well, but there is an underlying depth and constant change of strategy. As well as a huge movelist that is usable and just simply, better game mechanics.

You know, I look at MK and I have some fond memories.

This one time when MK3 came out and this guy handed my ass to me with a chain combo, I was like.. they added chain combos to the game? And I asked the guy if he could lend me a quarter. He said "You're not worth a quarter." And I responded, "I know, I'm worth 50 cents =)." And all my friends were laughing and all, was so fun back then. I could remember playing MK all day then, coupled with Street Fighter (all its incarnations) and King of Fighters, Fatal Fury/Real Bout, and Samurai Shodown it was fun and there were many strategic things you could do as well as mixups. I remember playing for hours and hours a week you know?

Now when I think of MK, I can't even pick up MKDA for 2 hours a week and 10 minutes of dealing with its single strategy exploitive gameplay bores me to death. I sometimes ask myself if its because I've lost touch with what I enjoyed, and I realized that wasn't it. I still played other fighters like Guilty Gear XX for at least 4 hours a week and I get to play in the arcades with some of the nation's best at my university. Hell, I've gotten my ass handed to me by the likes of John Choi in CvS2 and Eric Choi in GGXX more than I can remember, but I still love fighting games and I truly do love almost every fighter from SNK, Capcom, Namco, Sammy-Sega, Tecmo and even Midway. I pick up fighting games at home all the time to just play for kicks in my spare time, and I can't even do that with MKDA.

Honestly, after seeing how many people had the same feelings and determination to save MK as I do on these boards, I'd settle for an MK with game mechanics that are half as good as Soul Calibur. I mean, I think you can tell how bad the game is when the biggest posters of this board and therefore fans of the game spend more time posting and reading these boards than playing the actual game.

I keep reading posts like Deception is gonna be the best and they're gonna play it everyday and all I'm thinking is, you aren't. Look at MKDA, everyone said they were gonna play it everyday months before the game came out and that it was going to be the best game ever. Most of those people played and unlocked all the stuff and was gone in a week, I was just a board lurker back then admiring a few people who actually dissected the game like Satya, Verse, MKL, etc. I think the fact that your biggest fans rather spend their time on a message board than play the actual game speaks volumes. I mean 95% or more of the people who post normally on these boards spend more time on here than on MK on a weekly basis. What people don't understand is that the fluff: fatalities, story, costumes, etc. is worth of minor value opposed to the gameplay which is what gives the game its true replay value.

I mean, no offense to the following people mentioned, I read stuff from tgrant, Siduu and many other board regulars with their ideas on the game and other comments. But I know that they don't play MKDA or any MK on a weekly basis more than they spend their time here. If I was the MK Team, to me, that is a slap in the face when your game is not as interesting as a message board full of speculation and false hype. Hell, after all the posts you've seen me make, I'm sure you can guess that I'm one of the biggest fans of MK ever, I love what MK was to me and my childhood. But what it was, it no longer lives upto, so I try desperately to get people to see and post on this thread to show Midway that there are still players like myself.

Sorry it was a long-winded post, I suppose the nostalgia and the irony of the supposed people who say the gameplay of MKDA was great when they spend 10 or more times the time they spent playing that on this messageboard on a weekly basis just kinda gets to me sometimes. I don't see why some can't just admit that MKDA was horrible and that's why we're all on these messageboard, hoping MKD will be better. Too many people are misguided thinking that more fluff will make a fighting game better with longer-lasting replay value. If I gave everyone in MKAD 2 fatalities right now on the spot and death traps, I bet you people would still be here all the same.

Just wanted to say hey to everyone. I know what you're saying Guile, I suppose I'm more stubborn than I ever thought I'd be for MK. =) Tony and Satya, it's still gonna be a long ways, hope we'll all be here to dissect the game, even if its entirely flawed. Mastermalone, that was some funny shit man =P I think my girlfriend would be pissed though.

To be honest with you, I think the only thing that keeps me coming back for more MK is the memories I have of riding my bike all the way to the arcade so I could change a $10 bill and play all day. That feeling of putting your first quarter up on the screen knowing you were about to get destroyed was worth it because soon I was the one playing all day on one quarter. After UMK3, I really lost track of how fighting games were evolving. But where I was in life didn't let me keep up. Now that I am no longer on active duty and have a more 'normal' schedule, I am finding more time to become acquainted with MK again. I played MK:DA for a while and enjoyed it; but after reading what really makes a game and having such good examples put in front of me, I am realizing that MK:DA wasn't up to today's standards and Deception won't be either. Will Deception still be fun for me? Hell yeah. But it bothers me that it is lacking so many more important things than the fluff we see now. I now realize why so many of you, mainly the names you've mentioned, get so frustrated. Imagine how MK could be if it had the fluff, but more importantly had the right gameplay too. It would by far be the best fighting game, hands down. And as far as the comment I've pasted below; I can't think of anything more true about the MK series.

I don't want a bigger movelist Boon. I want a reason to use more than
10% of the ones you've given me. Fix MK with Move Properties.