"Interesting posts. To me, Sub-Zero should be a bit higher on the list. With him, it's really more about a defensive strategy. It's true that his Freeze can be avoided (as well as many of the other projectiles in the game), but that's where the defensive strategy kicks in. Usually, when the Freeze misses, I find the opponent coming closer to Sub-Zero which leads to the Ice Clone."

If the opponent predicts you are going to clone you will eat a projectile. The only character that Sub can really 100% safely clone against is BRC. Though

"If Sub-Zero is backed up against a wall, I would use the King's Crown or Iron Horse combo in Shotokan instead. One of the things that makes Sub-Zero's Freeze better than Scorpion's Spear is the recovery time. Unfortunately for Scorpion, the recovery time for the Spear still sucks. "

King's Crown and Iron Horse can both all hit high, meaning Sub will be ducked. Also, punishable if fully blocked, so your opponent basically picks your poison for you.

"I know why he's considered below average in MK: DA. Although I can partially see what has been said about him in MK: DA, I still feel that he's much better than that. "

#15 in this game isn't that bad man. Sub can compete, that's all I can really ask for these days being a Sub player. In MKDA he had some real ugly matches, and thankfully in this game no match up really becomes THAT ugly. He stands a chance vs every character above him, though I must say Sub vs Dairou is really ugly.

No offense but to me it sounds like the list of characters you are best with. When you explain why you put people where they're at you say "i cant put it in words i would have to show you"

I do agree that boraicho, dariu and noob smoke are the better characters, but to me the characters are more like rock paper scicors. If you pick a certain character he is good againts some characters and not others. No one characters is better then all. I can beat boraicho with kenshi. i can beat darriu with noob smoke. To me the top tier list is just an opinion.

To me kira isnt the worst character in the game.
She has some combos that push the character away making it impossible for someone to hit you.

mmmm projectile..

lol..anyway, in regards to those two combos, to me, it pushes the opponent away.

When it comes to the Ice Clone, you're right about Sub-Zero being vulnerable to a projectile. But that's why I'm talking about combining the Freeze and Ice Clone so that the Freeze can be like a trick to make the opponent block or sidestep it and then when Sub-Zero recovers and if the opponent walks towards him (which is what the opponent does most or all of the time when I play on max) then I can pull the Ice Clone and they are frozen which leads to me pulling off a strong combo. If it's combo broken, I should at least get some damage done. I suppose when playing against other people, namely the ones who are high-level players, I may have to modify that strategy. But with the Ice Clone out, I doubt the opponent would get close to Sub-Zero. And the good thing about Sub-Zero in this game is that he can Freeze when the Ice Clone is still there which is something that I was never able to do in past MK games.

Btw, I'm going to rip-off those crazy villagers in Orderrealm when I say this, but...

Number 15??? AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH! *runs around like a madman*

i would like to make a point as to ice clone vs. stinky clould both are the same in that when preformed there is a split second of an opening via scorpions spear or other projectiles. just my one pt. thats all.

"No offense but to me it sounds like the list of characters you are best with."

You either have a difficult time reading or didn't read this topic at all. A couple things to point out...

1. Sub-Zero and Noob-Smoke are my best characters.

2. Sub-Zero is at #15 on the tier list

3. Noob-Smoke is at #4 on the tier list.

If it was a list of characters I was best with, Sub would be at #1, Noob-Smoke would be at #2, etc. I'd also like to say that I'm better with Darrius,Ermac,Baraka,Jade,Hotaru and Li Mei than any of the characters above them except Sub-Zero and Noob-Smoke.


"When you explain why you put people where they're at you say "i cant put it in words i would have to show you" "

Not true. If you'll go a page back I explained to Liu Kang clearly why each character is placed where they are. If I didn't for a certain character(like Kira), please keep in mind that this is not even close to being 100% my work. This was a collaboration between myself,reptilestyle, and plenty of other players. I am not very knowledgeable of Kira, but what I do know about her isn't very good, and those who have had plenty of experience vs Kira players have nothing good to say about her either.

"I do agree that boraicho, dariu and noob smoke are the better characters, but to me the characters are more like rock paper scicors. If you pick a certain character he is good againts some characters and not others. No one characters is better then all. I can beat boraicho with kenshi. i can beat darriu with noob smoke. To me the top tier list is just an opinion."

Well, you are wrong. Kenshi can beat Bo Rai Cho, but Bo Rai Cho is a much,much,much better character overall. There is really no debating this. You are probably BETTER with Kenshi than you are with Bo Rai Cho, but that just makes you a great kenshi player. It doesn't, however, make Kenshi a good character. Players need to understand this to understand what tiers are truly about.

"To me kira isnt the worst character in the game.
She has some combos that push the character away making it impossible for someone to hit you."

Most of her combos are duckable.

"lol..anyway, in regards to those two combos, to me, it pushes the opponent away."

Yes, but if it's ducked you will get punished. What makes Shotokan and Dragon suck is the fact that everything in it hits high or low, meaning there's no reason to do ANYTHING but crouch block, except the threat of a cold shoulder, which does a whopping 9%*sarcasm*

"When it comes to the Ice Clone, you're right about Sub-Zero being vulnerable to a projectile. But that's why I'm talking about combining the Freeze and Ice Clone so that the Freeze can be like a trick to make the opponent block or sidestep it and then when Sub-Zero recovers and if the opponent walks towards him (which is what the opponent does most or all of the time when I play on max) then I can pull the Ice Clone and they are frozen which leads to me pulling off a strong combo."

See, that rarely happens though. The freeze being stepped is rarely ever IMMEDIATELY punished at max distance, they simply sidestep and walk in closer, but I suppose at mid range if you're dumb enough to do a freeze then that set up would work.

"If it's combo broken, I should at least get some damage done. I suppose when playing against other people, namely the ones who are high-level players, I may have to modify that strategy."

lol...yes

"But with the Ice Clone out, I doubt the opponent would get close to Sub-Zero."

Well vs Jade she can b,f+2 to go into invincible mode and walk through the clone.

"And the good thing about Sub-Zero in this game is that he can Freeze when the Ice Clone is still there which is something that I was never able to do in past MK games."

It's not very useful though.

I tend to use the Ice Clone at mid range. Sometimes, I may use the Freeze, but that might be if the opponent is close up to a wall or something.

I know what you mean about that move of Jade's. With Sub-Zero, he has to be played very strategically as you already know. Perhaps the Cold Shoulder can help a bit.

Anyway, what makes Scorpion top tier?

People,please make sure you go back and see why Kira is so low and why Scorpion is top tier.I clearly explained it in full detail and in the best of my ability.If you don't understand something or wonder why it's so effective,then I'll be more than glad to answer any questions you may have.

ok well Hotaru isnt really high on the list but what makes him better than... well any one?

ok well i understand better bout the lst and where they r at. ok so this brings me to asking.... y isnt Ermac up a bit higher? he has a really good long distance game imo. with his projectile, the throw move, and when he levitates and comes crashing down (sorry i really cant remember names for some reason. lol). and his close up game isnt bad either haveing the slam move is good to start a pop up combo. and he has some good combos. the Axe i like best with him. i think he was a great distance game and a good enuff close up game that he should really be high on the list.

Hotaru has a really nice 50/50 game. First off the lava blast is a good move. Great for zoning, and really limits your opponent's mobility to quick steps up then blocking, and risky jump attempts. Pi Gua: b+1 is a launcher and hits mid, which leads to 2,2,cs. If the 2,2,cs juggle connects they are planted down. From here on you have either a guaranteed 50/50 mix up OR you can turtle up and let time run down with lava blasts. If you decide to 50/50 you can walk up and either do another b+1 or you can throw. The throw is ALSO a launcher and leads into 2,2,cs.

Ermac lacks logical ways of setting up serious damage, so he's really dependant on quick and efficient high/mid/low mix ups(huay chan: d+4/1/throw) and his AWESOME mystic float d+3. His slam leads to big damage, this I know, but you're better tacking off damage with his fairly safe change ups and setting up his MF d+3. He's a good character IMO, you just have to have a real nice mind game going with him. In no way, shape or form a "dominating character". Nor does he have the potential to be dominating like those above him

Anyone ever find out the infinites for hotaru, ashra and nightwolf? The all have easy ass infinites off of throws but they can be breakerd. Anyway just throwing that in. Maybe they can go up on the tier list. Btw I was hitting people with the damn noob smoke inf like crazy when I was playing this. Shit has been a real long time since I played. Good shit versatile and all the others who put together the list. It looks pretty good to me.

I've played some Ermac players.Seriously,all play the same way.

He does have a nice way to do inescapable 45%-50% of damage,but it only works when he is in the corner (when his back is faced towards the corner)...

In weapon stance, b+2, Tele-Slam, b+2, Tele-Slam, Tele-Throw (f,b+2),Throw (guaranted only in corners after Tele-Throw)

Nice and inescapable damage.b+2 hits mid but is rather unsafe so it's important that you be careful about using the move.Also, 1,3,4,4,4 is very nice.The first move (the 1) hits mid.If all this connects,a throw may be guaranteed if they don't backdash.If they do,another 1,3,4,4,4 may be guaranteed.

A downfall to Ermac in his weapon stance is that he moves very slowly.Backdashing and (front)dashing is very hard to do.Simply compare him to his other stances and you'll know what I mean.

Anyone ever find out the infinites for hotaru, ashra and nightwolf? The all have easy ass infinites off of throws but they can be breakerd. Anyway just throwing that in. Maybe they can go up on the tier list.

I think it's something with the deep jump kick before the opponent falls to the ground after the throw.Seriously,I don't think I've ever gotten it to work.Because everytime I deep jump kicked,the opponent can block it.Suggestions?

ok i was just playing some MKD and well ya Bo' Rai Cho does own. ok but Nightwolf.... well... i find him to be actually hella good. so good that actually he seems cheap to me so i dont like him (i cant stand playing with some one who is real cheap). anyways y is he where he is? maybe he should be a little bit higher on the list? im not sure. but his special moves is primarly what makes him real good yet cheap. there is some problems with his weapon style but nothing too bad. he seems like a good defensive player to me that u can block when up close then counter with a quick combo. and he can play long distance as well with the lighting attack and the spirit arrow. o and his rhino charge can make some good space inbetween players.

No thats not how it's done man. I know how but I dont think it would make THAT much of a difference in tiers. They are just as usefull as noob smokes jumpkick throw inf.

all 3 of them have the same infinite though. Very easy to pull off. I've done it to people on live before so you might see it out there. Credit goes to trent/gimmethemshoes on this one. Same guy that figured out the noob smoke ones.

most of kombos are duckable.

yes but kira has a move that hits when the opponent ducks, it aslo goes into a combo, but Im not trying to argue with you. I understand why you made this list and why you put the characters where you did. I just think that if me and some people got togheter and did a top tier list it would look different. Its based on opinion, and thats what this list really is: an opinion on what you guys decided to be the top tiers.

Scoot,share if you can please.

Anyway,I've discovered some new glitch in the game that works for all characters that have a good recovery after moves that plant (where the opponen can't tech roll AT ALL).Maybe it isn't that new but I've shown it to Konqrr online and it ddn't seem like he's known about it before.

I'll post it a little bit later.

To versatile:
I agree that sub in mkda was really pathetic, and that while in mkd he is decent, he is still mired in mid tier. IMo in mkda the best characters were scorp and frost. Anywayz i still do feel that sub should be placed between 10 and 12. Everyone who plays enough of the game knows that a sub player worth his salt is a pretty damn tough proposition. sub rarely has bad matchups. With the only i can thing about bein dairou cos of sub's defensive tendencies, and possibly players who teleport, like raiden and jade. sub also has probs against defensive characters at times. But other than that, get good enough with him and its smooth sailin... If i ever play with you mayb we xcould share pointers.
I do not think kira deserves last either. her attacks, while at times slow and chunky, are still above kabal and ermac IMO...

Ok youguys know how tanya gets a free throw after her cannon drill move? Well the same thing goes for the hotaru. nightwolf and ashrah infs.

Basicly what you do is throw and with hotaru in his weapon stance hit back+y (it could be back+x... It's been a while). It sends the guy up in the air and quickly walk under him to the other side and throw on wakeup. Rinse and repeat. Same shit goes for nightwolf and ashrah but you have to fin the right move that knocks them up and makes them land on there head. I know for sure it has to be in weapon stance for both of them too.

ok i dont get how u can say Sub_Zero is worse or better in MKD than he was in MKDA. hes pretty much exactly the same! the only REAL big difference is that in MKD he has the Ice Clone and in MKDA he has the Shaker. i like Sub-Zero better in MKDA cuz i prefer the Shaker over the Ice Clone but still he isnt any worse or better in MKD than in MKDA. same thing with Raiden....

ice shaker and ice clone are much different in my opinion
but the big difference for me is kori blade. ( cant do that kick anymore, 3 i think )

and shotokan is not safe anymore, 1, 2, B+2 used to be safe
but makes up for it with 1,1,3, B+2. ( and d+1 )

i wish so much shit was more safer its not even funny, this game is pissing me off, i used to own at mkda, and now i suck at this shit, but at least it feels more like a real fight, i love this game..


Bring Back Rival Schools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i think Shotokan is perfectly safe. i kick ass with it. the Kori Blade i never cared for any ways and actually never use it in MKDA or MKD. and yes i know the Shaker and Ice Clone r way different (never said they were the same). and i prefer the Shaker over the Ice Clone. thats the only reason y i like SUbby in MKDA better than in MKD gameplay wise. i do love the Cold Blade combo with Subby in MKD tho. i find Subby to be very safe. i guess it just depends how u play with him....

Both Shotokan and Dragon aren't safe, the lack of mid attacks also hurt Sub. Versatile showed me that Kori is the only stance you need unless you're juggling, because the 50/50 of b+2 and b+4 are better then everything Shoto and Dragon offer... AND THEN SOME.

I use Shotokan's 1,1,3,cs a lot though, I never try his full branch, since the damage isn't worth. Just go 1,1,3,cs 1,2,cs for a nice 31%.

Allright fools.I will now reveal the glitch I talked about earlier...REMEMBER FOR ALL THESE = SSR (side step to the right).

Noob-Smoke - b+1, walk up to the opponent and side step then Throw (after you Throw,hit b+1 again and repeat for Infinite)

This is inescapable and can be done anywhere you want.The Infinite combo itself requires a little bit of practice,but I've flawlessed people with this before.The opponent CANNOT duck the throw when the throw is done at the right time.That's all I have to say about this broken piece of shit.

Darrius (in weapon stance) - 3, d,f+3, walk up to the opponent and side step then Throw

You should know the first shit.Then,simply walk up to them and side step.The opponent CANNOT duck the throw,or backdash,or jump back,etc.

Tanya (in weapon stance) (NOT 100% confirmed) - 100% combo in corner

Throw (in corner), b+2,1,1, b+3, *Throw*, b+2,1,1, b+3
After b+3 the opponent will be planted to the ground.You will have to know when to side step and grab the opponent.When done right,the throw is NOT duckable making the rest guaranteed

Havik (second stance) - Throw, f+2, walk up to the opponent and side step then Throw again (escapable Infinite)

Nothing special here.Works like Noob-Smoke's.

Sub-Zero (weapon stance) - 1,b+1, walk up and side step then throw

Guaranteed obviously.
PS:Why the hell can you duck under b+1 (in 1,b+1) even after it hit sometimes?

Yeah,this is it.There are more examples of this glitch for other characters,but I'm too lazy to post it.

On a side note,for Noob-Smoke,you can also do the Infinite after b+1.You don't need to throw.