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Would fans have been fine with Frost as the sole cryomancer?
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posted08/13/2014 09:27 PM (UTC)by
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DG1OA
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06/15/2011 08:07 PM (UTC)
Obviously I realize it's a little late to ask, since Sub-Zero's already back and all (though we don't yet know who he is for sure), but let's say they decided to not only bring back Frost, but to make her the only cryomancer in the game. Could that have worked?

She may look different, being a woman and all, and with that cool hair, but I see no reason she couldn't have replaced Sub-Zero. Kuai Liang replaced Bi-Han as the series' cryomancer. Was it okay because their "human" selves didn't really differ significantly in appearance, and were both male?

Sub-Zero could have been an already available male variant (alt, just so we're clear) for Frost a la Wii Fit Trainer. Of course, since we already have a Sub-Zero, Frost could still make it in as the opposite-sex variant. Anyway, there's little to nothing Frost and the Sub-Zeroes can do that the other can't, logically ("human" Sub-Zero in MK9 had Frost's ground freeze), so making one the other's "alt" isn't like dressing Liu Kang in Kung Lao's clothes and pretending he's the latter.

My point is, that since we're already looking at the possibility of Kuai Liang being replaced by another cryomancer, they could have considered Frost as the replacement. Obviously, lot of casual players and MK fans would have a problem with it, since she looks too different from all the male ninjas, including Sub-Zero's long-time foe, Scorpion, and Frost taking on Scorpion just isn't a draw like a(nother) fight between him and SZ. But storywise, I don't see why it couldn't have worked.

And if not Frost, then why not a new female cryomancer? If a new male one's okay, why wouldn't a female one? Because again, like Frost, she'd look too different?
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projectzero00
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 •08/08/2014 04:11 PM (UTC) •
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I have to disagree with all of this.
First of all, people didn't have much problem with the new Sub Zero back then because he looked similar to his brother and his name was the same. No Bi-Han no Kuai Liang. Just Sub-Zero, same look, same powers. Very few people were probably aware of him being a new character so they didn't really mind.
Second, Sub-Zero fans have had a long time to grow fond of the character and he undoubtedly has had the greatest development out of all the MK characters. It's a bit unfair to compare him to Frost who appeared in just one game. Same with Bi-Han.
Finally, if they decided to include another cryomancer I don't see a reason why they would create a new female one. We already have Frost who has barely had any development. I am one of those people that think if a character has untapped potential, why not bring them back and work on it?
To be honest I loved Frost. I loved the idea of a female cryomancer and I loved that she was evil. If only they differentiated her moves a bit more.
To answer your question tho, I would be absolutely fine with Frost being the sole cryomancer in the game. I know people would go crazy, but personally I wouldn't mind.
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thisiscourage
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 •08/08/2014 04:19 PM (UTC) •
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I have always hated frost. She is the culmination of affirmative action. Nothing more, nothing less.
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JadedReign
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 •08/08/2014 04:23 PM (UTC) •
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I'd totally be fine with Frost as our sole cryomancer, but I know I'm definitely in the minority there.

A lot of people would be pretty pissed, considering that Sub-Zero is one of the biggest faces of the MK brand and all.
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Jaded-Raven
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 •08/08/2014 04:24 PM (UTC) •
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Lords no. I'd prefer if Frost is retconned out completely.
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thisiscourage
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 •08/08/2014 04:25 PM (UTC) •
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The new sub zero.. who ever he is. Is just a means to an end. That end being the ability for NRS to have their poster boy back. After the fact they went and shaped a story (no doubt) around this new sub zero, made certain visual ques for him being someone different, etc. If they made a female one it wouldn't be sub zero.. it would be frost..

Not too hard to get. There are a SMALL and I mean SMALL amount of people who actually care who is under the mask. The rest of us realize that what makes sub-zero who he is, is not his name. Think of it like the Dreaded Pirate Roberts from The Princess Bride.
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DG1OA
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 •08/08/2014 04:33 PM (UTC) •
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projectzero00 Wrote:
I have to disagree with all of this.
First of all, people didn't have much problem with the new Sub Zero back then because he looked similar to his brother and his name was the same. No Bi-Han no Kuai Liang. Just Sub-Zero, same look, same powers. Very few people were probably aware of him being a new character so they didn't really mind.
Second, Sub-Zero fans have had a long time to grow fond of the character and he undoubtedly has had the greatest development out of all the MK characters. It's a bit unfair to compare him to Frost who appeared in just one game. Same with Bi-Han.
Finally, if they decided to include another cryomancer I don't see a reason why they would create a new female one. We already have Frost who has barely had any development. I am one of those people that think if a character has untapped potential, why not bring them back and work on it?
To be honest I loved Frost. I loved the idea of a female cryomancer and I loved that she was evil. If only they differentiated her moves a bit more.
To answer your question tho, I would be absolutely fine with Frost being the sole cryomancer in the game. I know people would go crazy, but personally I wouldn't mind.



Do you also ask yourself why we'd need a new male cryomancer, which this Sub-Zero might be, or do you think only a new female one would be overkill (the same way some think two blonde military gals is)?
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L-BowShot
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 •08/08/2014 04:37 PM (UTC) •
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I dont mind Frost. Not a huge fan, but i dont dislike her. However no it wouldnt work out for the better or anything. Simply just consider that Sub Zero, Scorpion, Raiden, and Liu Kang are by far the top of the top of fav characters overall. Not having one of them could result into some fans not buying the game. Me... Liu is my fav and him being killed in mkda pissed me off so i didnt buy the game til about year and a half later. And got it used so still the got no money from me on that game.

Now i gotta say, however, if theyt did leave sub out and put in frost, yeah overall they would still be very successful with mkx, but just not as much as they would have with subby.
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thisiscourage
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 •08/08/2014 04:37 PM (UTC) •
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DG1OA Wrote:
projectzero00 Wrote:
I have to disagree with all of this.
First of all, people didn't have much problem with the new Sub Zero back then because he looked similar to his brother and his name was the same. No Bi-Han no Kuai Liang. Just Sub-Zero, same look, same powers. Very few people were probably aware of him being a new character so they didn't really mind.
Second, Sub-Zero fans have had a long time to grow fond of the character and he undoubtedly has had the greatest development out of all the MK characters. It's a bit unfair to compare him to Frost who appeared in just one game. Same with Bi-Han.
Finally, if they decided to include another cryomancer I don't see a reason why they would create a new female one. We already have Frost who has barely had any development. I am one of those people that think if a character has untapped potential, why not bring them back and work on it?
To be honest I loved Frost. I loved the idea of a female cryomancer and I loved that she was evil. If only they differentiated her moves a bit more.
To answer your question tho, I would be absolutely fine with Frost being the sole cryomancer in the game. I know people would go crazy, but personally I wouldn't mind.



Do you also ask yourself why we'd need a new male cryomancer, which this Sub-Zero might be, or do you think only a new female one would be overkill (the same way some think two blonde military gals is)?


I see what your trying to say, and I shouldn't speak for EDIT: Projectzero but nah he isn't sexist.

It is just a matter of a male cryomancer will automatically be sub zero, a female would automatically be frost. And sub zero > frost, especially in the eyes of NRS.

If what your arguing is why people will associate the genders with the perspective names then you are asking the wrong questions to the wrong people.
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Jaded-Raven
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 •08/08/2014 04:39 PM (UTC) •
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thisiscourage Wrote:
I see what your trying to say, and I shouldn't speak for Jaded but nah he isn't sexist.


He didn't even mention me. O.o
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thisiscourage
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 •08/08/2014 04:40 PM (UTC) •
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Jaded-Raven Wrote:
thisiscourage Wrote:
I see what your trying to say, and I shouldn't speak for Jaded but nah he isn't sexist.


He didn't even mention me. O.o


HA! i meant projectzero MY B!
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balkcsiaboot
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 •08/08/2014 04:48 PM (UTC) •
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It would have been an opportune time to give Frost the spotlight.

Even though I'm not a huge Frost fan, I would have welcomed the change FOR ONCE.
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projectzero00
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 •08/08/2014 04:50 PM (UTC) •
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DG1OA Wrote:

Do you also ask yourself why we'd need a new male cryomancer, which this Sub-Zero might be, or do you think only a new female one would be overkill (the same way some think two blonde military gals is)?


It's not my decision to make first of all. You just asked our opinions and I gave you mine. As for your question, yes I think a new female one would be overkill. Because as Boon made it clear in a recent interview, in his eyes "Sub-Zero" is a title given to a Lin Kuei cryomancer whenever the previous one dies. So since Kuai Liang is dead, they are probably gonna bring a new one. Frost on the other hand, was never a character with this kind of storyline. She was just Frost, a girl with ice powers who was recruited by Sub-Zero.
I never said we need a new male cryomancer. However it would make sense, since it isn't the first time we get a new Sub-Zero. The second-coming of Frost would be absolutely mind-boggling tho. They already tried to create a female Sub-Zero and weren't that successful. Why not try to flesh Frost out instead of creating another cryomancer?
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Icebaby
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 •08/08/2014 04:51 PM (UTC) •
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I would have loved to know what would have happened if they had decided to put her in Mortal Kombat 2... had it not be for various threats saying they better not do so.

^True story.

I wouldn't mind, and that's not saying because I'm a fan. Would be one hell of a change.
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ReptzMK
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 •08/08/2014 05:30 PM (UTC) •
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JadedReign Wrote:
I'd totally be fine with Frost as our sole cryomancer, but I know I'm definitely in the minority there.

A lot of people would be pretty pissed, considering that Sub-Zero is one of the biggest faces of the MK brand and all.


I got your back. wink

I too wouldn't mind if Frost became the sole Cryomancer of MK. No disrespect to Subby fans, but he and Scorpion are pretty played out imo. I wouldn't mind seeing Subby take a break for a game or two (would suggest the same for Scorpion, but we all know *that's* not going to happen).

The absence of Kuai or Bi from MKX would have given Frost a decent chance to shine, and I feel that's one missed opportunity on the part of NRS. Instead, we have either a new Subby or one of the brothers, and while they could have a new and interesting story, I feel Frost could have shouldered the Cryomancer mantle well enough on her own.

Oh well. It's an interesting thought to have Frost as the *ice ninja* rather than Sub-Zero, but it obviously has a next-to-nothing chance of happening. grin
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Jaded-Raven
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 •08/08/2014 05:46 PM (UTC) •
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We could get both Frost and Cyber Sub-Zero in MKX and Frost would still be the sole cryomancer.

To those who don't get what I mean - when Kuai Liang was forced into the Cyber Initiative and became a cyborg, he lost his powers as a cryomancer due to the process. His ice powers as a cyborg aren't supernatural, but installed technology. He would no longer be a cryomancer.
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TemperaryUserName
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 •08/08/2014 07:11 PM (UTC) •
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Sure, Frost could replace Sub on a gameplay level, but not on a story level. Frost is a power hungry crazy person, and Sub has the the strongest story of anyone in MK. She's not a good substitute. We still need sub even if frost can throw ice balls.
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Demon_0
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 •08/08/2014 07:16 PM (UTC) •
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No, I for one wouldn't have been fine with it. I'd even go as far as to say that Sub-Zero should be included in each and every MK game one way or the other, period.

The female characters in MK have substantial representation from their fanbases. All I see here is people asking for Tanya, Jade, Mileena, Kitana, Sonya and thats fine. But would it be okay if one of the two most iconic MK characters is replaced by some female copy (with frozen HAIR) who contributed jack-shit to MK? No, it would not
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WeaponTheory
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 •08/08/2014 07:23 PM (UTC) •
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DG1OA Wrote:
Would fans have been fine with Frost as the sole cryomancer?


Well...based on the "omg which Sub-Zero is it?!?!?!" threads. Seeing how people desperately want Noob Sub-Zero or Cyborg Sub-Zero for story reasons. I think the answer is "Fuck no" to have Frost come out of nowhere with a fresh start of history when the others had a "big past history".

I wouldn't mind Frost at all though.
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cpleck
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 •08/08/2014 07:30 PM (UTC) •
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I wouldn't be fine with it. There is no reason to leave out Sub Zero, whether he be a human or cyborg. If she would have been the only cryomancer in, they would have had to do something absolutely magnificent with her.

Her design would have to be perfect. Her 3 variations would have to be absolutely stunning both visually and strategically. Her specials would have to be on point as well. In other words, I believe that she would have to be perfect for most Sub Zero fans to accept her as the only cryomancer in the game.
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Tazer_Gunshot
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 •08/08/2014 07:54 PM (UTC) •
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NRS just should of brought in Frost instead of a "New" Sub-Zero. Bi-Han died and became Noob. Then Kuai Liang comes in and replaces Bi-Han as the new Sub-Zero. Kuai Liang dies in MK9 story-mode and now MKX has a new Sub-Zero to replace Kuai Liang (if it's true).
Frost should of been the one to return, not a new male from the Lin Kuei.
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thisiscourage
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 •08/08/2014 08:04 PM (UTC) •
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Tazer_Gunshot Wrote:
NRS just should of brought in Frost instead of a "New" Sub-Zero. Bi-Han died and became Noob. Then Kuai Liang comes in and replaces Bi-Han as the new Sub-Zero. Kuai Liang dies in MK9 story-mode and now MKX has a new Sub-Zero to replace Kuai Liang (if it's true).
Frost should of been the one to return, not a new male from the Lin Kuei.


..Kuia liang dies and becomes... Can't wait to find out =]
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Props to MINION for making this sig.

•08/08/2014 08:06 PM (UTC) •
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thisiscourage Wrote:
I have always hated frost. She is the culmination of affirmative action. Nothing more, nothing less.


According to some fanboys ANY character they don't personally like who is a woman and/or non-white is nothing more than "affirmative action". Whatever...
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DG1OA
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 •08/08/2014 11:11 PM (UTC) •
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Demon_0 Wrote:
No, I for one wouldn't have been fine with it. I'd even go as far as to say that Sub-Zero should be included in each and every MK game one way or the other, period.

The female characters in MK have substantial representation from their fanbases. All I see here is people asking for Tanya, Jade, Mileena, Kitana, Sonya and thats fine. But would it be okay if one of the two most iconic MK characters is replaced by some female copy (with frozen HAIR) who contributed jack-shit to MK? No, it would not


Why make a big deal about Sub-Zero being replaced by a female copy, and not just a copy in general, regardless of gender?

And it's a little hard for Frost to contribute "jackshit" when she hasn't been given much opportunity to. But since we're talking contributions here, what does the ever so iconic Scorpion contribute to the story, other than being a glorified lackey?
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KungLaodoesntsuck
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 •08/08/2014 11:23 PM (UTC) •
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The casual fans would flip the fuck out. There'd be a serious uproar if Sub missed a game. And having Sub as a palette swap wouldn't go over well because then they seem like clones. And MK doesn't need any more of that.

Now I personally wouldn't mind since I don't like Sub to begin with.
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