Lycani said:

i actually do agree to a small portion of his sentiments...if you think about it we are lucky they even desided to keep the franchise going after the WB takeover. that is what i mean by that. i bet a lot of other Midway games will never see the light of day again. And for my sticky idea,i stand on that yes because there is a fine line between complaining and discussion...complaining on boards like this makes sense to a point and i feel people have that right yes...but it litters the boards after awhile and ruins other discussions. a sticky for such complaints,issues,bugs,infinates,patch requests and all that should be made available from the game devs themselves honestly but i guess the fans do it here because they have no other options besides call the company and its not like they will say ok hold we will get Boon for ya. i totally understand what your saying and i agree the fan base needs to have that voice out there but it needs to be focused in one place so its easier for the devs or others to relate and maybe even petition.

My response:

I certainly agree that we're lucky the MK team is still together and making games, but I don't believe that, as jb was implying, we should allow that luck to supercede the fact that people will want the game to be good. People should let their voices be heard in hopes tht maybe someone from the dev team notices a throng of people saying something important.

Does that ever happen? I doubt it, but ya never know.

Now, you're talking about a thread for bugs, infinates, patch requests etc? Now THAT I can totally get behind. I think that's an EXCELLENT idea!

But I wouldn't include general complaints about the content and quality of the game in a thread like that. Have you read the most recent Game Informer? The one with Halo Reach on the cover? I'm not trying to promote anything, but in that magazine, there's an article on the wall that exists between players and developers.

The article basically asserts that developers usually get most of their information from a filter, be it the marketing team, a producer, PR etc. On the other side, developers are very hesitant nowadays to speak their mind about their games and what they think of them and other games because millions of dollars are on the line and everything that's said can be misinterpreted, taken out of context or even twisted to develop some new meaning than neither the interviewer or the subject intended.

I bring this up because I really believe that gaming is a unique medium in this regard. With movies, the original is almost always the best. It captures the original magic, the lightning in a bottle etc. The sequels just capitalize on that most of the time. But in games, developers have the ability to fix everything that was wrong, update the graphics, add ideas that had to be cut out due to time and hopefully... Possibly... Maaaaaaybe listen to their fan base and implement some of what they want as well.

So as a fan, I think it's almost our duty to speak up and say "I don't want dial a combos" or "fix the fighting system before adding superflous minigames, oh and this is how the fighting system needs to be fixed." To me, that's not simply complaining (though it is in it's purest sense), but it's also a constructive dialog, even if its' basically a message in a bottle, thrown out there by the complainer in hopes that someone with the ability to make changes will see it and do something about it.

But yeah, if you just sit quietly and accept whatever they'll give you... You might be happy. Then again, if you want the series to do this better or that... I see no harm in speaking up. What's the worst that can happen? Someone actually sees your idea and acts on it? Isn't Domino's pizza running an entire ad campaign based around this idea right now? People saying their sauce tastes like ketchup etc.

I agree that not all complaining is a "constructive dialog" like I'm describing, and there is the garbage that needs to be filtered out. But I firmly believe that people should at least try. The more people try, the more developers can theoretically get a grasp of what their fan base wants. Maybe they'll even be able to steal a few good ideas from their fans.

The more this type of give an take occurs (to me, this is the type of compromising I'd like to see), the less power critics have over fans and the less we'll need filters like publicists and PR people to shield their dev team (who I agree are not robots without feelings) from their own fans.


Lycani said:

i honestly have not read that thread before typing this so i am a bit flying blind on it but what you said a bit about the combos and stuff being ripped off is kinda a complaint and i myself complain about game rip offs a little. so in a sense we all have some sort of complaints and as for my statement for making a stinker...that was just a far fetched statement i threw in to be sarcastic about it and to show my frustration towards the ones being hostile about it instead of being civil to discuss like we are now.


My response:

I know that you were being sarcastic, but as my lady says, there's some truth in all sarcasm. In other words, I know you'd never intentionally want to make a crappy game for people, but the fact that you said you would indicates the feelings of frustration. That's more what I was addressing than the actual statement itself.


Lycani said:

You read right...i do think SOME people really do have too high of standards and i am in some way saying they should lower standards to enjoy it. fans should compromise like that because in a sense it is not our game to make...its the creators. that is why compromise is needed because the fans and the creators have many different visions and if they compromise they get the best of most worlds. like you said...not everyone will be satisfied but a lot more will be than usual in this sense. as for your stating that with such stuff i am saying to be an insult to the game devs...its no where near an insult...it is a challenge. in any case it is the devs fault for the fans to have these expectations...its all on how they present the game and what they promise the fan base. the devs are setting these themselves.

for your last statement...we all want a better game. it is just the fact that our voice can't be heard or taken in consideration if we are over cluttering the boards or flaming all the time (that is if the devs even come here). the devs will be either overwhelmed or just think screw them they are being rude about it. that is what i am saying. they are human beings and not robots that can make magic happen overnight lol.
it is a lot more work than most think to make a game and it can be taxing on the final product too. back to the complaining thing...i am 100% sure that even if a sticky were made for such things there would still be flamers out there yes but for respectable complaints that the devs could relate and understand with should be placed in one spot for their best attention. this site is not an official site for the series though and such a sticky should be on the new WB site...that my friend is a reasonable complaint i think. and i am nowhere near being hostile about it nor am i expecting anything. it is just an honest suggestion. and you also said something about pointing out to people when they are unrealistic and going overboard...i try to until i start getting flamed or put down. some fans become obsessed with things so i just simply back down and ignore it,just shake my head and move on. and thanks for laying it out in portions for me lol...i can be on track minded as i have stated many times. also i am currently writing short stories based for a possible indie game company so my mind is swamped...also being on meds like xanax does not help lol. if there is anything i missed to explain feel free to point it out.

My response:

Working on short stories? Good luck man! I was an English major in college with a concentration in writing and try as I might, I can't seem to finish a story lately. I start out with some great ideas or great concepts, I get about 20 pages in and I just get sick of what I've written. A few weeks ago, I deleted 36 pages of a story so I could start it over from scratch.

I'm someone that never seems to be satisfied with my writing. Maybe that's why I'm so freakin long winded on these boards! lol.

As to what you were saying in this last part though, I don't think that complaining is cluttering up the board. The only clutter that I see would be the 18 threads about sadistic freak's desire to watch charcters eat each others genitals lol.

Like I said, the MK team knows that they'll never please everyone, especially the fans that have been around the longest and remember MK back at it's height.

But I do think that people should be allowed to vent their frustrations. Yeah, you don't need 200 threads about why people hate this game or that game, but every topic of conversation regarding a game has its more useful and less useful threads.

In other words... Don't let the people that complain about Mileena needing to be in the next game or they're done, ruin it for the rest of the people that want to provide constructive criticism about what they like and don't like about MK as it stands right now and their ideas for how it could be better.

There are a ton of these posters, many of whom I haven't seen on here in a long time, but am hoping to see again when the MK news machine kicks back in to high gear at some point in the (hopefully) near future. TGrant, Tony The Tiger, Predator151, Bleed, Chrome, fkflegend, Queve, RaisnCain, Konqrr, Versatile and a whole slew of others. Alot of these guys have great ideas about MK from story concepts to the very smallest nuts and bolts of the fighting system.

These people provide great insights and I'd love to see their voices get even louder in an effort to tell the MK team what their own fans might be interested in playing.

i kinda miss the run button myself...the feature in itself would be a nice addition just to run/charge. its not entirely needed though and to be frank though it is not my name(heheh)...the run feature would be just as gimmicky as anything else. don't forget a gimmick can be a good thing though. look at blood in games...thank MK for that. so yeah...i agree some gimmicks create flaws and disliked game play but its kinda become part of MK tradition.

sonic said....I don't think my expectations are to high,maybe their just not as talented as other developers in the gaming world to get the job done. I mean,when I personally look at other fighting games that are getting great reviews and just get so many things right I ask myself."Why can't the MK team do this?" and Why not?
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if i were an MK dev...i would feel insulted by this statement. lets remind you that these other games you speak of have had steady unchanged systems since the begining. they have taken no risks or anything and are milking people for money in doing so. these games get reviewed high because they are being played and reviewed by fans mainly...half of them are probably old school fans too. i say what about the newer generation of gamers? you have a valid standby for the casual player for pick up and play. that is cool and i agree but this is where the compromise button needs to be pushed. i feel you don't give the devs enough credit for working with what they have and given circumstances. don't forget they don't always have a choice either...they have deadlines and budgets. maybe the people reviewing these other games you speak of are kids and young adults unaware of the obstacles in the industry. in anycase i respect anyones opinions and you have a right to ask why. this is why a forum would be nice. we could actually ask devs why and maybe get some answers and maybe a bit of closure on stuff.

I don't mean it has a insult even though yeah,it could very well be taken as one but is not to be taken that way. Maybe instead of them looking at me saying that as a insult they could take it as a statement to make them do a better all around job. I know it doesn't sound like I give them credit for stuff they do but a lot of stuff has been a let down but I stick by in hopes that they can do a better job. I enjoyed all of the previous games to a degree but a long the way they did imo lose touch with what they started and I hope they find that special touch again to make things right with MK and their fan base.

There's a HUGE difference between the run button and blood. Blood and gore was used as a gimmick to sell the game and the run button, the aggressor meter etc were used presumably to try and improve the gameplay. Blood has zero effect on gameplay.

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Hmm, you say "unchanged" and "milking people for money." I say finding a good formula and perfecting it over time. Yes, this does have a way of making a game stale to fans, that's the downside.

But to me, I'd take that downside over the sausage making approach the MK team seems to have as of late. I mean, MK vs DC had so many random... I dunno... minigames(?) thrown in to it's fighting system that you had to actively avoid them to have a real fight. You know, don't want to kick an opponent too close to that wall or else it will trigger a button mashing minigame. Yuck.

Risk taking can be a great thing. Some times it pays off and it drastically improves a good game. The problem is that the MK team doesn't try to perfect their ideas, they simply keep adding new stuff on top of the old stuff without making the old stuff any better.

How much better was the dial a combo system in MK:D as opposed to MK:DA? MK:A? In MK:A, they just slapped an air combo system on and gave players even less options in terms of dial a combos. In other words, they added the air combo system, but took out options for their main system. Not good.

Although, to be honest, I actually liked MK:A's system over MK:DA and MK:D because of this. Sure, it basically forced me in to doing the same combo over and over again, but hey, it was a fun combo!


Every game developer deals with these conditions. You're acting like the MK team should specifically have slack cut for them when there's no logical reason for it. EA is laying off people left and right, closing studios etc. And they're one of the more stable game companies.

Now, one thing I will say is that publishers, higher ups, whoever's making these developers work as much as they do... Stop it. It's inhumane. I'd rather have a game come out 3 or 4 months later than have these people be abused in the way that they are at times.

People shouldn't have to work 14 hour days 7 days a week so that big wig muckety mucks can walk in to their boardroom with their chest puffed out a little more, announcing that Fall Quarter projections have bee met.

That's just wrong.

i guess i can agree with you for the most part but i still have my debates that stand. also,i suggest others to send charitable feedback to the WB on the new site to feature a good forum system for their games. I think it has become a needed feature in the industry to have a base for the community of the company and its games. it sure beats e-mail support.
as for posters missing in action...they do have a voice and they do get heard more than say someone like me or you. i did not join until the switch from mk5.org but i have followed this community quietly almost since the begining...until i finally joined...i had no voice at all. i hope to change that in time but until then i am hoping they start returning soon to be our spokeman of sorts. also we need some good mods to sort the mess that becomes of the boards at times lol. i won't mention any names but i am sure you understand what i am saying about that.

you took that in the exact opposite way of how i meant it lol. i am for the devs all the way yes but im not saying pamper them.i was just saying the fans should have better access to speaking with some of them. like for example...look at harmonix for rock band. they have gone through all the cuts and loses but they are doing good and they cater to fans at times and they even have a request system for dlc. i want to see that for MK. but yeah...kids and lesser knowledgable people of the game industry don't know the hard work and losses they deal with.and you are right about how they push the devs like slaves...it inhumane and selfish.it is companies like that..that make it not fun to make the games.its hard work yes but without the constant push and hassle it could be fun. I agree with you about MK:A...i actually think its my favorite MK right now just because of the system itself...the story in fighting games is least important to me but the cinematics have to have some meaning to match the outcomes or whatever but yeah i agree with all that you said on that.

Expectations?

1) If there are bugs, patch 'em. I can't believe this even needs to be said, but whatever.

2) 0 to 3 new characters, and THAT'S THE FUCKING MAXIMUM! One of the biggest flaws of the series is that Boon replaces half the character roster with new characters every game, and even if the new characters were well-designed (they're often not), it still reaps hell on the story and consistency. If Soul Calibur replaced it's character roster with bullshit every new installment, it wouldn't warrant the respect it has now.

3) Scorpion to lose the revenge plotline. Those pants haven't fit him for a long time.

Another thing that would be nice but isn't necessarily the drawing line for a purchase is a new fatality system. People may say that's what they did in MKA, but no, that was just the old system with customizable elements (sorta).

What they should do is implement the fatalities in actual combat, the much in the same manner as Killer Instincts "ultimates" and Soul Caliburs "critical finishes." That way, doing a fatality would require a level of skill. Far more rewarding if you ask me.

Bring Tobias back. The series has gone downhill since he left...

many of us fans would like that to happen...maybe in the future it will. never know.

For the next MK game I expect the following:
1) A solid story that pushes MK forward and hopefully in a new direction. A new tournament might be able to aid this if they can find a means for it and a way of making it not seemed forced.
2) New characters that people care about and that are fresh and interesting. It'd be nice to get some new blood and life in that don't rehash ideas of old.
3) Solid gameplay. This is a must. MK needs to stop being the laughing stock of the fighting genre. A new improved engine and proper testing would help alleviate this. If there are bugs, we need patches to fix them. There's no excuse for this not being done nowadays. Also, a decent parrying system where you can parry and deflect attacks back and forth like on Soul Calibur would be good. It'd add a new element to high level play.
4) Secrets that are worthy of the classic games of old - see MK1 - MKT. It'd be nice to find hidden stuff that's a challenge to get and no more of the Krypt and Konquest modes being the only way to do things. My Art of Unlocking thread showcased plenty of stuff they could use.
5) FMV endings, please. It's about time really (ignoring MK4 and Gold).
6) Fatalities that retain the magic and perhaps simplicity of old. Lose the ones that are plain stupid and unrealistic. If there's a need for humour, make it dark and sadistic. Also, make sure the Fatalities fit with the nature of the character and don't overdo the blood
7) Better blood effects during the game and not just gushes of it at every blow. Keep the gradual facial damamge and perhaos add some costume damage too.
8) Decent level design. I'd like the stages to be a better thought out in terms of relevance to the story and their layout, especially if they are to include Stage Fatalities and / or deathtraps. I'd prefer deathtraps not to be back.
There's probably more I could touch upon but these are probably the most pressing, imo.

Great ideas man! I couldn't agree more!

Thanks, Baraka407. I think some of your comments got mixed up in my quote though.

1) Characters; not too big selection of characters. About 14 characters is fine IMO. 50/50 old and new. There has been a lot of characters introduced in MK, a lot of them were fillers. I expect no filler characters.

2) Story; I don't want a soap opera. I expect that they cut it out with the zillion realms and plotlines between characters. It gets too much, especially when you have 20+ characters.Keep it simple, but make sure it has (or allows) some depth.
The main story needs to focus on a certain new direction. But it should be part of bigger whole. Just like MK 1 (earth tournament Shang Tsung) and MK 2 (Outworld battle Shao Kahn). I like the " there are bigger forces behind the scheme" idea.

3) Gameplay; I don't know much about fighting mechanics, but I checked out the parry system and it looks great. No more gimmicks a la close combat. Just things that add more technique and high level gameplay. The gameplay also needs to be faster and flow easily. Make the game 2D if that's necessary. I certainly wouldn't mind.

4) Athmosphere; Dark, Serious, Gritty, Mystical. I hope they bring back more of the Asian Mythology. It seemed lost when Tobias left. They need to bring it back. I really liked this fake trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crdQ00ns-BA

5) Graphics; Realistic is the first thing that pops into my mind. I liked that MK vs. DC got rid of the disproportional body parts. Still I expect more realistic graphics. That was one of the things that made MK popular and different from the other fighters back in the days. I hope they can create this without using digitalized characters.

6) Fatalities; Baraka's MK 2 lift fatality is an example. Simple, brutal, gory and realistic. I know that it can't be fully realistic, just try too search a better balance between realistic and fantasy. Also critical finishes like in SC4 is a good idea, same idea like the ultimate in KI. Makes it more of a challenge.

7) Music; should sound like how I described the athmosphere. Here is an example to give you some idea http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmaYebUXlDk&feature;=related

as long as idiot fans keep buying the game they're gonna give you the same shit as always - why change anything when when a half-assed game sells over a million units every time?

Want and expect are very different things.

What do I want?

I don't care about stuff like polygon count, shaders. I just want a nice aesthetic. In many ways I prefer the graphics of MK Armageddon than MK vs DC, because of the outfits mainly. If they had given Kitana one of her precious outfits, and Sonya her awesome military dress garb, then MK vs DC would have been infinitely better.

I mainly want a fun game with some hot babes in it, that feels satisfying and fluid to play, has some badass stuff happening in it, and that doesn't take forever to come out. I'm not that fussed about the age rating, but if it goes back to being a bit more graphic it'll have more "WHOAH did you see THAT" moments, which would be totally sweet.

What do I expect will happen? I don't know. Probably much the same as last time, gameplay a bit better, a few more characters.

I think they're better off implenting a dash/quick evade that is controlled by a meter to ensure it isn't overused. That way they can tie them up with special attacks at the same time (Example: Kang needs to be dashing forwards to pull off his fly kick).



I dunno man, as much as I loathed MK vs DCU it was a highly polished game, at least compared to the last couple of installments. Still, you're right about the MK idiot fans buying anything with the dragon logo stamped on it -- I'm just hoping Boon et al have the pride to not fall back on this knowledge and actually WANT to produce a quality game.

They were quality games, even MKA. Quality wasn't the problem. The real problem is that fans wanted an in-depth fighter but Midway was in the business of making accessible general-audienced fighting games.

^ No. That would be like having a book that's full of spelling errors, plotholes, cut+paste characters, and old ideas being rehashed with little thought to improve or rework them.

This book comes from a publishing company that sells books which are like this despite these negatives (or perhaps because of some of them) they're actually more accessible and more likely to be taken in by the general public.

Does this mean the book is a quality book? No. And I don't think neither Midway nor the MK Team had quality in mind when they made MKA - simply because it was easier to slap everything together ala Dr. Frankenstein and get it out into the public than to really work for a game that exceeds what it's done before. This is even SHOWN through the fact that Ed Boon was so excited about "wiping the slate clean" with the next MK (which, to me, is a good sign that they actually want to focus on quality next time 'round)

my expectations are not very high for mk because i have been dissapointed too many times. and i dont expect them to change to better gameplay and other stuff either. looks like its always going to be the same lame 3d game every year. lol!!!

I think we need to distinguish between errors and intentionally-placed game elements that people disliked. I didn't like that I had to play as Raiden for the bulk of Metal Gear Solid 2 or that game creators omitted Mai from the recent KoF installment, but those aren't errors, those are disagreements regarding development goals.

Errors are things like unreasonable loading times, incomplete content, system crashes, spelling errors in script, and failure to adhere to basic genre standards. When you say things like MKA was shallow or didn't have a story that encompassed all the characters (which btw, was never originally intentional), you're not attacking the product quality or the amount of effort that went into the game, you're attacking the game's underlying concept (trilogy pt. 2).

EDIT: take bayonetta for the PS3. That's a game that failed on the quality level.

My analogy wasn't actually pointing at MKA's story, it was meant as a reaction to the overall rushed feel of the game which led to "errors", as you called them: issues to do with game balancing, glitches, infinites, etc.

On the other hand, there were also stylistic CHOICES made by the MK team (not specifically errors) that led to the product being (at least to me and I would think most logical spectators) of lesser quality - and these things included recyled fighting styles, recycled or uninspired special attacks, and a simplistic fatality system, all of which made most fighters in the game feel too similar and lessened the quality of the gaming experience.

Now I'm not saying the MK team should be blamed for all these considering the insane time and budget constraints they were up against, but that doesn't mean the game can be judged as being a quality - and the things I listed about (at least in the first paragraph) show that pretty objectively. Something with that many errors cannot be a quality product, regardless of the circumstances the creators were put in.
And i haven't played Bayonetta but tell me a bit about it if it helps me understand where you're coming from.

MK 9 better have at LEAST 30 characters, and at least 3 alternate costumes. There should be some sort of customization to the characters and/or the ability to design your own characters (like Soul Calibur). There should be progressive damage to the fighters and at least 2 fatalities per character. And let's have some good fatalities this time not just some cheap-ass shit like twisting someone's neck or torso around 180 degrees (what moron thought those up?) Kreate-a-Fatality was gay - they can leave that out.
Also, can we see some real cinematic bios and endings and not just a fucking still shot?

Yes. It likes other male video game features.

can we please get a regular boss for the game. why do bosses have to take up half of the stage or move slow. give us a reglar boss that is powerful. im tired of playing cheap ass versions of king kong as the boss of fighting games.

Let's have Shang Tsung again who can morph into anyone and this time into a big creature. Better yet, we need a female boss.