variation system a gimmick?
variation system a gimmick?
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posted12/30/2014 09:28 PM (UTC)byNapalmXiphiasMember Since
06/10/2014 10:17 PM (UTC)
I remember seeing some gameplay footage of the variation system on the stream....and when I saw Quan Chi's gameplay, I saw a little bit of every variation in one round: demon summoning and portal moves....when it seemed like those were divided into separate fighting systems.
I also heard that one of Sub-Zero's variations adds just 1 one move with the ice clone throwing, the Grandmaster Variation.
I don't know guys, I never believed that the variation system will seem like "3 characters in 1"...It just seemed sort of gimmicky. Couldn't it have been more simple to just combine everything into one fighting system for each character? I would've preferred that, because I want to be able to choke AND stab someone with kano, not just do one of each.
I also heard that one of Sub-Zero's variations adds just 1 one move with the ice clone throwing, the Grandmaster Variation.
I don't know guys, I never believed that the variation system will seem like "3 characters in 1"...It just seemed sort of gimmicky. Couldn't it have been more simple to just combine everything into one fighting system for each character? I would've preferred that, because I want to be able to choke AND stab someone with kano, not just do one of each.
OttoVonRuthless •12/26/2014 01:00 AM (UTC) •
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It's not a gimmick, it's a way to improve match ups.
NapalmXiphias •12/26/2014 01:23 AM (UTC) •
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OttoVonRuthless Wrote:
It's not a gimmick, it's a way to improve match ups.
It's not a gimmick, it's a way to improve match ups.
Improving match-ups by simply adding one or two moves? Please elaborate.
I could understand maybe Quan Chi's defense mechanisms or Kotal kahns totems, but thats just a few examples, but that still doesn't mean they couldn't have found a way to squash some things into one big moveset.
Like for Raiden's variation where his basic attacks are charged, couldn't they have made a move where he temporarily charges his basic attacks? Or a for grandmaster variation for Subby, just simply be able to throw the damn ice clone, why does that need its own variation?
JasonVPred •12/26/2014 01:24 AM (UTC) •
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... here's your Subzero, now plain zero.
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Gimmick? Sure I would agree with that statement if the system is revealed as completely imbalanced and if NRS tossed it aside after MKX like the option to tag team from MK2011.
NapalmXiphias •12/26/2014 01:59 AM (UTC) •
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Icebaby Wrote:
It's not a gimmick.
Create a fatality/fighter was a gimmick.
It's not a gimmick.
Create a fatality/fighter was a gimmick.
Oh that was terrible...
Well for me it was. I like it when characters have depth and creativity and that sort of killed it.
NapalmXiphias Wrote:
Oh that was terrible...
Well for me it was. I like it when characters have depth and creativity and that sort of killed it.
Icebaby Wrote:
It's not a gimmick.
Create a fatality/fighter was a gimmick.
It's not a gimmick.
Create a fatality/fighter was a gimmick.
Oh that was terrible...
Well for me it was. I like it when characters have depth and creativity and that sort of killed it.
Had they invested the time and effort as well as not be on the brick of bankruptcy, I'm sure it would have been really awesome.
Unfortunately, they decided to toy with fate and tried to deliver something new into a game that was already planned to be disastrous from the start.
I TRIED to like it... I mean I'll put in some effort to like something I don't like but it's too hard to pretend to like that mess.
creed200569 •12/26/2014 02:46 AM (UTC) •
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KAF would of been great if they had a larger variety of finishing moves
unleash_your_tounge •12/26/2014 04:06 AM (UTC) •
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creed200569 Wrote:
KAF would of been great if they had a larger variety of finishing moves
KAF would of been great if they had a larger variety of finishing moves
Or just moves that were more unique to the characters...
KungLaodoesntsuck •12/26/2014 01:35 PM (UTC) •
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Yeah it's MKX's gimmick. It's a new take on gameplay. If it sticks around, it's not a gimmick. But if it flops then yeah it was a gimmick.
JadedReign •12/26/2014 04:51 PM (UTC) •
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A question for those who have actually played the game at an event: Did you notice if variations ONLY change special moves? Or do they also change things like normals, basic combo strings (the ones found in the characters' move list), and character movement speed?
I can see why NRS made the variations. It's something new (and, from interviews, it's said that Ed is big on novelty with each MK title), and it allows more flavor and mileage per character. If several different members of the team have different ideas for moves or designs for a character, they can implement them.
For those that say "why not have all the movesets combined?" Think about how many moves some of the characters have between variations.
Let's look at Quan Chi:
- Skull Toss (also done in air)
- Ground Rune (may have different range inputs like in MK9)
- Telestomp (may be adjusted by direction for potential fakeouts, like MK9)
- Trance
- Purple DoT Spell Circle
- Red Increased Block Damage Spell Circle
- Green One-Hit Armor Spell Circle
- Portal Grab
- Portal Throw
- Portal Kick
- Summon Bat
- Bat Bites
- Bat Fireball
- Low Bat Trip
That's 14 special moves. Now try developing a movelist made up of that AND a healthy swath of melee combos with no inputs overlapping and no unintended negative edge. And try balancing that massive toolkit against a full roster of other characters with just as many moves.
That's a bit unwieldy for a single character in a single stance/style. Zatanna from Injustice has 15 separate special moves (only counting one type of teleport), and 6 of them are in her hat stance. The variations allow the team to get more mileage per character, while still making them playable (and testable!) without much difficulty.
I can see why NRS made the variations. It's something new (and, from interviews, it's said that Ed is big on novelty with each MK title), and it allows more flavor and mileage per character. If several different members of the team have different ideas for moves or designs for a character, they can implement them.
For those that say "why not have all the movesets combined?" Think about how many moves some of the characters have between variations.
Let's look at Quan Chi:
- Skull Toss (also done in air)
- Ground Rune (may have different range inputs like in MK9)
- Telestomp (may be adjusted by direction for potential fakeouts, like MK9)
- Trance
- Purple DoT Spell Circle
- Red Increased Block Damage Spell Circle
- Green One-Hit Armor Spell Circle
- Portal Grab
- Portal Throw
- Portal Kick
- Summon Bat
- Bat Bites
- Bat Fireball
- Low Bat Trip
That's 14 special moves. Now try developing a movelist made up of that AND a healthy swath of melee combos with no inputs overlapping and no unintended negative edge. And try balancing that massive toolkit against a full roster of other characters with just as many moves.
That's a bit unwieldy for a single character in a single stance/style. Zatanna from Injustice has 15 separate special moves (only counting one type of teleport), and 6 of them are in her hat stance. The variations allow the team to get more mileage per character, while still making them playable (and testable!) without much difficulty.
WeaponTheory •12/26/2014 06:30 PM (UTC) •
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"BEER ME!" - Noob Saibot
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JasonVPred Wrote:
Gimmick? Sure I would agree with that statement if the system is revealed as completely imbalanced.
Gimmick? Sure I would agree with that statement if the system is revealed as completely imbalanced.
This.
Everybody hasn't played the game yet. The community as a whole cannot yet determine whether or not the Variation concept is a fail.
nightbreed_16 •12/26/2014 07:21 PM (UTC) •
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I will rock you.
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I think the variation system is legit it gives the person different abilities to add with there combos.
WeaponTheory Wrote:
This.
Everybody hasn't played the game yet. The community as a whole cannot yet determine whether or not the Variation concept is a fail.
JasonVPred Wrote:
Gimmick? Sure I would agree with that statement if the system is revealed as completely imbalanced.
Gimmick? Sure I would agree with that statement if the system is revealed as completely imbalanced.
This.
Everybody hasn't played the game yet. The community as a whole cannot yet determine whether or not the Variation concept is a fail.
Same goes to those who think the new characters are already punching bags. We don't even know why they're here, only extremely vague descriptions and intros are all we're going on.
We can't judge something when we haven't played it. Not that many gets this.
Also, I agree with Jadedreign about those who would rather have everything combined in one. There were like, maybe three characters in 2011 that had over five specials... I couldn't remember all of their specials in one sitting. I rather have everything be split up than dealing with fourteen different specials.
L-BowShot
•12/26/2014 07:45 PM (UTC) •
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Check out my MK vids on my Youtube Channel
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nightbreed_16 Wrote:
I think the variation system is legit it gives the person different abilities to add with there combos.
I think the variation system is legit it gives the person different abilities to add with there combos.
I agree its legit from everything ive seen. Though no matter what ppl ITS A GIMMICK..... It being a good gimmick that works for the better or not is the question..... Idk if itll make it actually better than having just one moveset, but three variatuons flat and simple adds a shit load more matchups and that isnt a bad thing. From what i can tell its only a change in some special moves you have with each variation. However your chars norms and few specials will be apart of every variation. Its not three totally different movesets, its more subtle just changing some special moves which does enough to create different play styles with the variations and adds matchups. There is gonna be hundreds of matchups so for this to work it just has to be balanced.
KungLaodoesntsuck •12/26/2014 08:05 PM (UTC) •
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I look at Variations as an experiment more than anything. Like how X-Rays were in MK9. If Variations are positively received, they'll probably return for future installments. If not, they'll get shoved under the rug and probably never return.
I like the idea of Variations though. Being able to play characters differently and diversify match-ups is a great idea to me.
I like the idea of Variations though. Being able to play characters differently and diversify match-ups is a great idea to me.
TemperaryUserName New sig on the way •12/27/2014 03:37 AM (UTC) •
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NapalmXiphias Wrote:
Improving match-ups by simply adding one or two moves? Please elaborate.
Improving match-ups by simply adding one or two moves? Please elaborate.
Something as simple as adding plus frames on a blocked combo chain can completely change a match-up.
If the special move functions differently than those in another variation, then it alters the style of play. That's why they have to be delegated to different variations.
NapalmXiphias Wrote:
I could understand maybe Quan Chi's defense mechanisms or Kotal kahns totems, but thats just a few examples, but that still doesn't mean they couldn't have found a way to squash some things into one big moveset.
I could understand maybe Quan Chi's defense mechanisms or Kotal kahns totems, but thats just a few examples, but that still doesn't mean they couldn't have found a way to squash some things into one big moveset.
Squashing those moves into a unified set would have meant nerfing them. The original idea was to allow unique specials moves and strategies to be viable without breaking the characters. What's the point of combining all of Sub's variations if he can't whiff punish as well with cryomancer? Or perhaps defend as well with unbreakable? Variations allows players to choose a toolset that is most optimal for them based on their own style.
Think of it this way: MK9 sub essentially has all his main tools, and the end product is a character with great defense and mediocre offense. If I want to play Sub optimally in MK9, I can't rushdown 24/7. Variations allow for people to use Sub-Zero in a more offensive capacity if they want to. This style of diversity simply isn't possible without variations.
BADASS6669 •12/27/2014 06:03 AM (UTC) •
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Sex is Evil, Evil is Sin, Sin is forgiven, so Sex is in.
I kill people for a living. Get over it.
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I would rather have all three in one like the 3D games.
I believe that most people will learn one variation and stick with it.
I believe that most people will learn one variation and stick with it.
fivehundreddollarsunglasses •12/27/2014 12:04 PM (UTC) •
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TemperaryUserName Wrote:
Something as simple as adding plus frames on a blocked combo chain can completely change a match-up.
If the special move functions differently than those in another variation, then it alters the style of play. That's why they have to be delegated to different variations.
Squashing those moves into a unified set would have meant nerfing them. The original idea was to allow unique specials moves and strategies to be viable without breaking the characters. What's the point of combining all of Sub's variations if he can't whiff punish as well with cryomancer? Or perhaps defend as well with unbreakable? Variations allows players to choose a toolset that is most optimal for them based on their own style.
Think of it this way: MK9 sub essentially has all his main tools, and the end product is a character with great defense and mediocre offense. If I want to play Sub optimally in MK9, I can't rushdown 24/7. Variations allow for people to use Sub-Zero in a more offensive capacity if they want to. This style of diversity simply isn't possible without variations.
NapalmXiphias Wrote:
Improving match-ups by simply adding one or two moves? Please elaborate.
Improving match-ups by simply adding one or two moves? Please elaborate.
Something as simple as adding plus frames on a blocked combo chain can completely change a match-up.
If the special move functions differently than those in another variation, then it alters the style of play. That's why they have to be delegated to different variations.
NapalmXiphias Wrote:
I could understand maybe Quan Chi's defense mechanisms or Kotal kahns totems, but thats just a few examples, but that still doesn't mean they couldn't have found a way to squash some things into one big moveset.
I could understand maybe Quan Chi's defense mechanisms or Kotal kahns totems, but thats just a few examples, but that still doesn't mean they couldn't have found a way to squash some things into one big moveset.
Squashing those moves into a unified set would have meant nerfing them. The original idea was to allow unique specials moves and strategies to be viable without breaking the characters. What's the point of combining all of Sub's variations if he can't whiff punish as well with cryomancer? Or perhaps defend as well with unbreakable? Variations allows players to choose a toolset that is most optimal for them based on their own style.
Think of it this way: MK9 sub essentially has all his main tools, and the end product is a character with great defense and mediocre offense. If I want to play Sub optimally in MK9, I can't rushdown 24/7. Variations allow for people to use Sub-Zero in a more offensive capacity if they want to. This style of diversity simply isn't possible without variations.
To Temp: While I commend your attempt to educate the simpletons on FG basic concepts and design, I believe that your words are wasted on these boards. Come to TYM, where an education like yours will be appreciated!
OttoVonRuthless •12/27/2014 12:22 PM (UTC) •
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fivehundreddollarsunglasses Wrote:
To Temp: While I commend your attempt to educate the simpletons on FG basic concepts and design, I believe that your words are wasted on these boards. Come to TYM, where an education like yours will be appreciated!
TemperaryUserName Wrote:
Something as simple as adding plus frames on a blocked combo chain can completely change a match-up.
If the special move functions differently than those in another variation, then it alters the style of play. That's why they have to be delegated to different variations.
Squashing those moves into a unified set would have meant nerfing them. The original idea was to allow unique specials moves and strategies to be viable without breaking the characters. What's the point of combining all of Sub's variations if he can't whiff punish as well with cryomancer? Or perhaps defend as well with unbreakable? Variations allows players to choose a toolset that is most optimal for them based on their own style.
Think of it this way: MK9 sub essentially has all his main tools, and the end product is a character with great defense and mediocre offense. If I want to play Sub optimally in MK9, I can't rushdown 24/7. Variations allow for people to use Sub-Zero in a more offensive capacity if they want to. This style of diversity simply isn't possible without variations.
NapalmXiphias Wrote:
Improving match-ups by simply adding one or two moves? Please elaborate.
Improving match-ups by simply adding one or two moves? Please elaborate.
Something as simple as adding plus frames on a blocked combo chain can completely change a match-up.
If the special move functions differently than those in another variation, then it alters the style of play. That's why they have to be delegated to different variations.
NapalmXiphias Wrote:
I could understand maybe Quan Chi's defense mechanisms or Kotal kahns totems, but thats just a few examples, but that still doesn't mean they couldn't have found a way to squash some things into one big moveset.
I could understand maybe Quan Chi's defense mechanisms or Kotal kahns totems, but thats just a few examples, but that still doesn't mean they couldn't have found a way to squash some things into one big moveset.
Squashing those moves into a unified set would have meant nerfing them. The original idea was to allow unique specials moves and strategies to be viable without breaking the characters. What's the point of combining all of Sub's variations if he can't whiff punish as well with cryomancer? Or perhaps defend as well with unbreakable? Variations allows players to choose a toolset that is most optimal for them based on their own style.
Think of it this way: MK9 sub essentially has all his main tools, and the end product is a character with great defense and mediocre offense. If I want to play Sub optimally in MK9, I can't rushdown 24/7. Variations allow for people to use Sub-Zero in a more offensive capacity if they want to. This style of diversity simply isn't possible without variations.
To Temp: While I commend your attempt to educate the simpletons on FG basic concepts and design, I believe that your words are wasted on these boards. Come to TYM, where an education like yours will be appreciated!
That's the one bummer about this forum is that half the community on here knows nothing about fighting games. I always go to TYM for gameplay discussions but MKO is great for story related topics
fivehundreddollarsunglasses •12/27/2014 12:32 PM (UTC) •
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Say "hi" next time you're over at TYM. The name's "Swindle" over there.
fivehundreddollarsunglasses •12/27/2014 01:04 PM (UTC) •
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Demon_0 Wrote:
TYM is great and actually gives me hope that MK(X) will be taken serious by the FGC
TYM is great and actually gives me hope that MK(X) will be taken serious by the FGC
TYM, it's the only way to fly. I just come by here to get *excited for MKX with my friends IceBaby and jaime!!!!
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