MKX, other fighting games and the roster overhaul
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posted09/05/2014 11:28 PM (UTC)by
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Charybdis
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"Pray for the Kahn's Mercy"

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06/04/2014 07:07 AM (UTC)
A lot has been made here and on other MK boards about the dangers of large roster overhauls in fighting games. I thought I'd examine the notion more closely and take a look at the other two biggest fighting game franchises (in my opinion) and how they've handled large roster overhauls.

STREET FIGHTER
The overhaul I've seen MKX compared to most is Street Fighter 2- Street Fighter 3. Because of the method of release Capcom uses for Street Fighter, I'll use the definite roster of each subseries. The roster in Super Street Fighter 2 was:

RETURNING
Ken
Ryu
Sagat (CPU)

NEW
Akuma
Balrog (CPU)
Blanka
Cammy
Chun Li
DJ
Dhalsim
Honda
Fei Long
Guile
Bison (CPU)
T Hawk
Vega (CPU)
Zangief

The most notable thing about that roster is that all of the new characters are essentially Street Fighter staples. The reason for this is that the original street fighter was pretty disconnected from a true fighting game, as in you could only play Ryu or Ken if you were Player 2. So the roster introduced in the Street Fighter 2 series is essentially the heart of Street Fighter: pretty much the UMK3 roster equivalent.


The major overhaul came in SF3. When SF3 was initially released, the response was ambivalent, mainly because of the almost total change in the roster: very few characters had any relation to others in SF2 and almost all movesets in the game were totally new. Even though the ratio of new to old characters was higher in SF2, SF2 had no real legacy to build on, while SF3 built on SF3. Later iterations of SF3 did incorporate older characters, like Akuma, Chun Li and Dhalsim, but the initial SF3 had only Ken and Ryu returning.

These days, SF3 and 3rd Strike in particular is revered as one of the best fighting games and one of the best arcade games of all time, and recently Daigo called it the greatest fighting game of all time. High praise.

The roster for 3rd Strike was:

RETURNING:
Akuma
Chun Li
Dhalsim
Ken
Ryu

NEW:
Alex
Dudley
Elena
Gill
Hugo
Ibuki
Makoto
Necro
Oro
Q
Remy
Sean
Twelve
Urien
Yun and Yang

Not only has the game itself gained more fans as it aged, but several of the new characters, initially maligned have gained increased prominence among SF fans: Dudley, Hugo, Elena and Ibuki in particular.

So what can we learn then? Initially, SF3 was met with a lukewarm reception as it changed not only several gameplay mechanics but almost the entire roster was new. However, it gained traction and appreciation and is now remembered as a classic fighting game.

TEKKEN
This is the other major fighting game series in my opinion. (I don't want to get into a debate over others but basically I'm running with SF, MK and Tekken being the big three with DOA, KI, KOF and VF being the rung below).

There have been more major roster overhauls in Tekken than either MK or SF: only one character has been playable in all Tekkens: King (and even then, the man beneath the mask changed, like Sub Zero).

The roster from Tekken 1 to Tekken 2 was fairly similar, albeit with Tekken 2 naturally adding some characters: no character from Tekken 1 failed to make the Tekken 2 roster, while Roger/Alex, Lei, Jun, Baek and Bruce made their debuts. So the roster was:

TEKKEN 2

RETURNING:
Anna
Armour King
Ganryu
Kuma
Kunimitsu
Law
Lee
Prototype Jack
Wang
Heihachi
Devil
Jack 1/2
Kazuya
King
Michelle
Nina
Paul
Yoshimitsu

NEW:
Alex/Roger
Angel
Baek
Bruce
Jun
Lei

This is very much a classic fighting game roster evolution: add a few characters, keep all the classics and it led to Tekken 2 becoming one of the greatest fighting games of all time and one of the best selling fighting games in history.

To do what Namco did next took serious spine: they totally overhauled their roster and characters, introducing new movesets and moving away from their classic look into a more modern look, complete with heavy metal soundtracks.

Tekken 3 became an instant classic for several reasons: gorgeous graphics, amazing designs, an excellent fighting system that was at once accessible and competition-worthy. It is the second best selling fighting game of all time, one of the greatest games ever made and in my opinion, the greatest fighting game ever.

This contrasts with SF3: SF3 gained a high degree of adulation but only after several years of lukewarm reception, whereas Tekken 3 was released to immediate, massive acclaim despite similar roster overhauls and gameplay changes (for instance, Tekken 3 removed the ability to simply jump out of all attacks, making the game far more skill based) and introduced the sidestep to put Tekken in the 3 axis-style of fighting games..

The major overhaul came from Tekken 2 to Tekken 3:

TEKKEN 3
RETURNING
Anna
Kuma (different bear)
King (different man under the mask)
Heihachi
Nina
Paul
Yoshimitsu
Lei

NEW:
Bryan (borrowed heavily from Bruce's moveset)
Eddy Gordo
Forest Law (borrowed heavily from Law)
Hwoarang (borrowed heavily from Baek)
Gun Jack (different moveset from previous Jacks)
Jin Kazama (mixed Jun and Kazuya)
Julia (borrowed heavily from Michelle's moveset)
Ling Xiaoyu
Mokujin
Ogre
True Ogre
Dr. Bosconovitch (joke character)
Gon (joke character)
Panda (skin for Kuma)

Not only is the roster slightly smaller than Tekken 2, several of those characters are either jokes, skins or evolutions.

A key feature of Tekken 3, which I believe helped it to be so successful is that the movesets carried over: Bruce, Kazuya, Jun, Law, Baek and Michelle all had successors in the game which allowed for a great deal of adaptability and allowed more easy access for players who had mastered their characters in Tekken 2.

So what can we learn?
There are a great deal of similarities between MKX and T3.

The roster overhaul in MKX will likely be a huge one, with as many as 14 new characters. Tekken introduced a similar overhaul and also introduced some tweaks to the gameplay, similar to MKX. However, in utilising successor/descendant characters to keep movesets similar, T3 achieved a sense of consistency despite the overhaul. While MKX will change inputs, all reviews and hands on impressions report that it remains similar to MK9: The Kombat Tether reporting that after a few minutes, you adjust to MKX from MK9, very similar to the change from Tekken 2 to Tekken 3.

The design overhaul in both series' lead to a more series, dark game in both cases but this did not provide any real obstacle.

Finally, crucially, is the state of the gaming market. When Tekken 3 was released on Playstation in 1998, Playstation lacked a fighting game to market itself around and had an overall apogee of top notch titles. Furthermore, the fighting game community didn't really have a rallying point: SF3 hadn't been well received and people were sick of SF2 and its series. So Tekken 3 became the premier fighting game titles. Similarly, MKX is emerging into an area where Capcom seem to have seceded the crown once more. UMVC3 and USF4 have achieved all they are going to achieve, and the only next gen fighters are Injustice and KI. What helped T3 become so huge on PS1 was its gorgeous graphics, which made full use of PS1 software: similar to the way next gen MKX is as good looking a fighting game as there's ever been.

What's quite interesting is the way Tekken and SF have gone since their third iterations: SF struck gold with SF4 and is now the king of fighting game franchises while Tekken has never really hit the heights of Tekken 3 again, despite the engine and system of Tekken 6/TTT2 being as good as anything else in the fighting game genre. Both franchises have also taken a consistent approach to their roster, very similar to Tekken 2: only adding a few characters but not subtracting anyone. The problem is that this leads to a massive roster and thus the game can feel overwhelming.

In conclusion then, both SF 3 and Tekken 3 had massive roster overhauls. SF3 went through a few years of being poorly received by the fanbase but eventually it solidified its place in gaming lore. Tekken 3, perhaps learning from SF3's mistakes, kept a lot of movesets in the game through successor characters. Due to other events in the gaming arena as much as the brilliance of Tekken 3, Tekken 3 became a must-have title for the PS1 and is now enthroned as one of the all time great fighting games. Due to the similarity between Tekken 3 and MKX, I predict that MKX will more closely follow the trajectory of Tekken 3 than SF3.

In short, don't worry about the roster overhaul, this game will be awesome.
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Jaded-Raven
09/04/2014 12:43 PM (UTC)
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Just one correction: Dhalsim was never in SF3.
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somnambulist
09/04/2014 12:46 PM (UTC)
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Soul Calibur 5 wasn't received very well and I believe nothing has changed. People still want Taki and Sophitia over Natsu and Pyrrha.
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SpookyScorpion
09/04/2014 12:49 PM (UTC)
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MK was always about introducing new characters, at least for the first 12 years

Deadly Alliance featured 13 returning characters and 11 new characters



this is nothing new but it seems people have forgotten due to a decade of greatest hits compilations.
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Zero_Jade
09/04/2014 12:58 PM (UTC)
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You are right about Tekken 3 and SF3. However the most recent example of a roster 'overhaul' is in Soul Calibur 5, and that was met with a very poor reception.

Series mainstays like Taki, Sophitia, Seung Mina where replaced with younger characters with very similar move-sets, and whilst these move-sets are still accessible the characters themselves have gone. And fans don't just love move-sets, they love the characters themselves, and many have been asking for these characters to return. Notice how in 'Soul Calibur: Lost Swords' Taki and Sophitia returned before their replacements as Namco realised their mistakes.

And whilst you are very right about Tekken 3 being renowned as being one of the best fighting games of its time, fans have been asking for these characters back ever since their removal. They have been slowly re-introduced over the years, and now there is a massive roster full of characters that have similar movesets.

All I'm trying to say is, its a big risk to reinvent a fighting game roster. Even if movesets remain, there will still be huge disappointment with the missing characters who we've grown to love over decades.

There may be great new characters introduced in MKX, but I'd rather them all be unique, so it doesn't feel like 'replacing' the old blood.

But that doesn't mean I'm not looking forward to the game, I agree with you, I think it will be awesome in the end! smile
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Charybdis
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09/04/2014 01:07 PM (UTC)
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Oh sorry, I totally blanked on SC5. Though in my defense, I hate Soul Calibur
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projectzero00
09/04/2014 01:09 PM (UTC)
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That was a very interesting read. However, you forgot to add SCV into your list which goes totally against your point. Imo the roster overhaul in that game was a complete failure. They added many new characters and most of them were less interesting or didn't play as fun as their predecessors did.
It's not a given that NRS' decision will be a success among the fans. The new characters will have to be AMAZING, with deep storylines, original movesets and fit right into the lore to please people. Personally I love MK for some of its characters. Those are the ones that made me love the game. Of course I will buy it no matter what, but if my favorite characters don't make it and get killed off I will miss a specific part of the game that I love. That said, I have a feeling that none of my favs will make it this time (Mileena, Rain Sheeva duh) so it's normal that I have high expectations of the newbies. They will have to be damn awesome since my mains won't make it.
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lastfighter89
09/04/2014 02:05 PM (UTC)
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There is no real logic behind the decision of having a roster full of returning characters or totally new ones or a mix between the two.


After SF 2's success, which owes a lot to the classic characters, there was no real need of a roster overhaul. Putting the same fighters from sf2 into sf 3, with SF 3's gameplay of course, wouldn't have changed a thing.
Sf3 could have been the greatest fighting game of all times, but be successful since day 1.

Personally I like more the way Mk works. I for one don't like the idea of having always the same characters, but following Deadly alliance and Deception 's route is the best solution.

Marketing wise, however , a radical overhaul would be a disaster . No need to deceive ourselves, the fighting games were like pandas two generations ago, on the brink of extinction.
This genre made its triumphant return after SF 4 and mk9 return and it didn't happen only for their great and funny gameplay, but also for nostalgia effect.

To be honest Deadly alliance had better gameplay than mk9, but was less successful due to the lack of nostalgia effect.


Sf4 was basically a Ex plus alpha gameplay with sf 2 artistic direction, playing all on nostalgia.


It might sound gross, but human being can feel real empathy and affection towards virtual characters and sales wise it matters more than a competitive gameplay.
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cpleck
09/04/2014 03:04 PM (UTC)
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lastfighter89 Wrote:
There is no real logic behind the decision of having a roster full of returning characters or totally new ones or a mix between the two.


After SF 2's success, which owes a lot to the classic characters, there was no real need of a roster overhaul. Putting the same fighters from sf2 into sf 3, with SF 3's gameplay of course, wouldn't have changed a thing.
Sf3 could have been the greatest fighting game of all times, but be successful since day 1.

Personally I like more the way Mk works. I for one don't like the idea of having always the same characters, but following Deadly alliance and Deception 's route is the best solution.

Marketing wise, however , a radical overhaul would be a disaster . No need to deceive ourselves, the fighting games were like pandas two generations ago, on the brink of extinction.
This genre made its triumphant return after SF 4 and mk9 return and it didn't happen only for their great and funny gameplay, but also for nostalgia effect.

To be honest Deadly alliance had better gameplay than mk9, but was less successful due to the lack of nostalgia effect.


Sf4 was basically a Ex plus alpha gameplay with sf 2 artistic direction, playing all on nostalgia.


It might sound gross, but human being can feel real empathy and affection towards virtual characters and sales wise it matters more than a competitive gameplay.


I couldn't have said it better myself.
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KungLaodoesntsuck
09/04/2014 03:09 PM (UTC)
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lastfighter89 Wrote:
To be honest Deadly alliance had better gameplay than mk9


Had to stop reading here because this is just absurd.
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Asesino
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09/04/2014 03:31 PM (UTC)
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Gon was awesome. I played only with him!
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JAX007
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09/04/2014 03:36 PM (UTC)
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KungLaodoesntsuck Wrote:
lastfighter89 Wrote:
To be honest Deadly alliance had better gameplay than mk9


Had to stop reading here because this is just absurd.


Seriously.
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Charybdis
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09/04/2014 03:42 PM (UTC)
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KungLaodoesntsuck Wrote:
lastfighter89 Wrote:
To be honest Deadly alliance had better gameplay than mk9


Had to stop reading here because this is just absurd.


Most insane thing I've ever read on this forum, and that includes hanky
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whatuknowaboutMK?
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09/04/2014 03:43 PM (UTC)
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JAX007 Wrote:
KungLaodoesntsuck Wrote:
lastfighter89 Wrote:
To be honest Deadly alliance had better gameplay than mk9


Had to stop reading here because this is just absurd.


Seriously.


I was just about to say the same thing. MK9's gameplay is 1,000,000x better than MKDA gameplay.
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Blade4693
09/04/2014 03:51 PM (UTC)
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Very nice read. Lets hope you are right. MKX is a day 1 purchase for me and I can already tell I am going to love it. I don't think its possible for me to be disappointed or let down when it comes to MKX. I was in the "Take my money" mentality the second it was announced lol
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immortalkombat
09/04/2014 03:54 PM (UTC)
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KungLaodoesntsuck Wrote:
lastfighter89 Wrote:
To be honest Deadly alliance had better gameplay than mk9


Had to stop reading here because this is just absurd.


I agree
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FROID
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09/04/2014 04:09 PM (UTC)
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lastfighter89 Wrote:
human beings can feel real empathy and affection towards virtual characters and sales wise it matters more than a competitive gameplay.


My apologies BUT
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Chrome
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09/04/2014 04:16 PM (UTC)
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FROID Wrote:
lastfighter89 Wrote:
human beings can feel real empathy and affection towards virtual characters and sales wise it matters more than a competitive gameplay.


My apologies BUT


To an extent. Presentation is where it's basically at. hence why the same character looks more ''kiddie'' in Japan and more ""masculine" in the USA. There are several factors at work here. So many factors there.


Remember the lack of Scorpion and masked Sub-Zero in MK3? Yeah, well I do.


And yes, this is literature or art, so the presentation takes precedence.
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diirecthit
09/04/2014 04:30 PM (UTC)
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The difference between Tekken 3 vs SF3/SCV is that Tekken 3 was released like 3 years after the series/characters debuted, so there were really no staple characters at that point so early in the series. The roster overhaul proved to be successful

SF3 and SCV were released several years and sequels after the series' debut.

Mortal Kombat has been going for 20+ years and 9 mainline titles, most of their roster consisting of MK1+2 characters, so i think MK falls under the SF/SC category, and not Tekken's.
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JadedReign
09/04/2014 04:42 PM (UTC)
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projectzero00 Wrote:
It's not a given that NRS' decision will be a success among the fans. The new characters will have to be AMAZING, with deep storylines, original movesets and fit right into the lore to please people.


Oh God yes. Introducing this many new characters, at the price of excluding so many well-liked existing characters, is a big risk. Since they are essentially "taking the spot" of some favorites, they WILL be heavily scrutinized, like it or not. NRS' team needs to be on-point with these new guys for them to be generally well-received. And, I hate to say it, but I don't have the confidence in them to deliver on that level.

Ever since Deadly Alliance (with a few notable exceptions), they often miss the mark on either character design or movesets when they make new characters. I'd like to believe that they've finally gotten it right this time around, but the four new people already revealed do not impress me.

It's awesome that they have this level of confidence in their brand to go forward with this kind of risk, but the new characters need to be absolutely exceptional to justify this overhaul. I'm so tired of poorly-designed new characters debuting, falling flat, and then never again seeing the light of day outside of an occasional "Gang's all here!" compilation game.
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lastfighter89
09/04/2014 04:59 PM (UTC)
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MK DEADLY ALLIANCE was more balanced than Mk 9.

Kano and Noob Saibot are useless in Mk 9 that's why there is no high level kano /Noob player.

In mkda every character was decent enough.

That's a fact.
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Charybdis
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09/04/2014 05:13 PM (UTC)
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lastfighter89 Wrote:
MK DEADLY ALLIANCE was more balanced than Mk 9.

Kano and Noob Saibot are useless in Mk 9 that's why there is no high level kano /Noob player.

In mkda every character was decent enough.

That's a fact.


Too bad MKDA was never played at a high enough level to validate that sentiment because it's just not good enough. The last truly balanced MK was Mortal Kombat. The first one. And even then, Raiden's jump kick is OP
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Jaded-Raven
09/04/2014 05:17 PM (UTC)
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lastfighter89 Wrote:
MK DEADLY ALLIANCE was more balanced than Mk 9.


MK9 was good enough to be taken seriously in tournaments. MKDA wasn't.

Yes, there were some balance issues in MK9, but it still got accepted. And again... MKDA did not.
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DjangoDrag
09/04/2014 05:24 PM (UTC)
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lastfighter89
09/04/2014 05:32 PM (UTC)
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Mkda was released in a period where everything with the words "mortal" and "kombat" in the title was considered pure shit without even a proper try-out and it was due to the "annihilation" and "special forces" effect.


MK9 wasn't even accepted into Evo, Wb had to pay in order to be accepted.

Had mk9 be released in 2002, probably it wouldn't have been accepted in evo as well.

Mkda resurrected, literally, the franchise.

Something that mk9 did too, but under a less desperate situation.


Btw I recognize that the word "better" could be misunderstood, so let's say more balanced. That's it.
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