I have thought about this countless amounts of times. I just recently direct messaged ThePredator151 on twitter a rant about it from when I brought this up on his future games sticky. The rant in all its glory is posted below in parenthesis.


"Basically the arenas would remain full 3d along with the destructable objects and dynamic things moving around the arenas and backgrounds. Now the characters would be shown in 2d as in exactly like paper Mario.The problem with this is the camera angles and 3d movement. If not done right the characters will look as if they were actually paper thin graphics from certain angles. A way that I can see to get around this is to fixate the camera on the characters strictly from a side scroll view and have the cam revolve around the arena along with the players movements. The only thing that will be needed is a side step feature kinda like in MK vs DC. Doing characters like this would maybe cut back on production times and also free up more disc space. Granted there may be a few challenges with death trap animations and stuff like that though.The funny thing IMO about the thought of 2d graphics on next gen systems technically look 3d anyways but actual 2d would bring back the classic feel and charm MK once had (plus in HD it would look sharper). I'm sure there would be other challenges with the idea but I think it may be a better risk to take rather than making MKvsDC2. All in all.You wondered how it could work systematically...I see it as 3 dimensional 2d graphics. Basically they are just making flat 3d models. So in all actuality the engine itself would not be considered 2d even though the game seems it is. I hope you understand what I mean lol.
A good example to give you with the camera ordeal I thought about would be to take paper Mario when he turns or spins in that game they show the fact he is paper.We don't want that.What we want to do is fix the camera on one set side of the model/characters to stick with that side as if you had a video cam an recorded yourself spinning in one spot but with the camera just fixated on your face as you spin...if you review the recording the example of the effect is kinda shown."

I hate to double post but I rather to do it than edit because I want this to stand out...so forgive me lol. I just wanted to state something that might be brought up in anyone's mind when they read this...when I said paper Mario I did not also mean to keep the cartoon skins. Alot of people on this topic bring up the fact it would look cartoony or whatever...no it would not. Honestly it would look almost like the original 2d MK games if done the right way. The only thing different would be the fact that the arenas would be 3d side scrolled with a side step feature.
I may try to photoshop (actually I use paint shop pro but...) an example of what it might look like. Basically it would be like taking MK 4 Arenas...remixing them to HD...taking and doing the same with MK Trilogy (or Mk2-UMK) characters remixed and putting them together in one setting.
But I have no means of an MK game to be cartoony.

I don't want any 3D movement at all. I want it to be like street fighter 4 where the characters are rendered in 3D but there is no sidestepping. I don't like blazblue or KOF but the backgrounds looked really good and, I hope MK can borrow that idea of ultra detailed and animated backgrounds. I don't like sidestepping in games with special moves. Without sidestepping it makes the player come up with more creative ways to unleash a kombo or exploit a weakness.

Also in no way do I want the style to look like any of those games. I want the style to be very MK like.

I agree! I wish MK9 would be 2D similar to SF4. I would love to see the MK series return to it's roots. I will always remember that feeling when I played MK1 and 2. I want it to feel like something new, but similar to the first 2 MKs.

Well honestly I could do without 3d movement myself but if I were a game designer I would try to appeal to all types of players while keeping the core fan base happy. So I would compromise a bit. Also,come to think of it...if the style I talked about was used with the camera fixating on the character movements there might be a way to actually pull off an adventure game style movement like MK:SM. The only thing is in MK:SM versus mode the fighting arena area is fixed for no camera movement and all the movement comes from the characters. So with paper graphics that would be swapped and the arenas would rotate and move with the fighting so the characters don't actually look like paper. Also with that idea...to get rid of side stepping buttons would mean to add a jump button instead of traditional up on the d-pad or a-stick. That would IMO be the best compromise. It would hold a 2d aspect like Shaolin monks did but it would also have that 3d impact that a next gen fighter should have.
The only other way to make everyone happy is to make two actual versions of MK9...one in 3d and one old school 2d. Personally I think that would be revolutionary to do...release 2 versions of the same game in 2 styles at the same time of release. Perhaps make it a special edition package to get both together or buy them separate. Honestly I don't think that would happen though.

I understand what ya'll are saying and I agree. Just have to make the 3d areans match up and compensate for all the 2d models/movements/side steps/stage fatalies/ arena objects.

I think this would be great for MK. Do the full 3d stuff in RPG or something but stick the fighting engine back to 2d somehow with these ideas.

With HD as great as it is with BLUERAY the graphics should be great. Not saying they did a crappy job on MK4 - the game was alright/good but try out the 2d area again.

FTR I have yet to play MK vs DC to get that experience.

A 2D MK it's only a dream... :'(

Ed Boon never will make a perfect MK like the MK1, MK2, MK3...

The best MK = SF4 graphics (3D but the jogability is full 2d).

I don't like the SIDESTEPS, makes the SCORPION'S SPEAR a joke... ¬¬

I agree with this 200%. If they went the Street Fighter IV route I would cream my pants endlessly!!

Ok (on a serious note now)..

I believe midway are on the right track graphically with what they've done with deadly alliance, deception, & armageddon. The old digitalized actors will probably never be done again because it takes so much more work than their current motion capture process (which is understandable).

I feel that Mortal Kombat lost something when they translated their combat from 2d - 3d. 2d fighters are just so precise with the frames for animations resulting in quicker strikes etc (in my opinion making a more enjoyable game)... With motion capture and side-stepping.. it just kills me when I input some chain combo.. I miss my enemy.. yet I still do some random punching kicking at nothing but air because he/she side stepped me and the animation has to finish or I have to get nailed.

To be honest.. I was an 80's gamer.. so beat-ups where the sh** back then! Once Street Fighter hit.. everything changed. I'd have to say MK II was my favorite one of them all. MK III with it's running and chain combo business totally lost me.. but I guess it was great for those of you are good with that stuff.



So personally.. I'm hoping MK 9 goes the street fighter IV route. 3d graphics with 2d gameplay (like the old series but with realistic fatalities like mk 1 & 2 , no ridiculous gibs)
All mk 1, 2, 3 arenas redone hd + newer ones that worked well
Also they need to incorporate a teamplay mode (badly).. 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 (offline/online) no tagging, basically like mk4's arcade team mode. But with a real player per character so 2v2 could be 4 different players or you could do the usual player1 plays as 2 characters vs player2 as 2 characters (you get what I mean). Also for online matches it would kick some serious ass.. doing a 4v4 match (8 players) so when 2 people are fighting (only they can communicate with one another) while the other 6 are watching and communicating/taunting the other team. How sick would that be?
Also fight replays like street fighter IV recentlly incorporated would be totally awesome for MK! So you could see the most recent replay of the top fighters ever!
Last but not least... a online search filter (like gears of war 1)
Running - on/off
Chain Combos - on/off
Side Stepping - on/off (this one would probably never happen)
etc..
I"m sure many of you wouldn't agree with the last option (filtering) I've stated... but being an old school gamer.. I'd of course prefer all of these off.. But at least this way.. you'd be catering to players of all different tastes.
Thanks for reading. [Update] Almost forgot... for teamplay mode depending on what the vs amount # is.. would also result in the # of rounds (best of) to be played ex: 3v3 would be best of 3 rounds Player 1 Player 4 (Start Round 1) Player 2 Player 5 (Start Round 2) Player 3 Player 6 (Start Round 3) If there was ever a tie (for 2v2 or 4v4) same process repeats itself. The reason for doing it this way would be so all players get a chance to play. Because say it was 2 rounds only and Player 1 was just so f***ing good that he beat players 4, 5, 6 without dieing and if he started the next round and same thing.. would suck for players 2 & 3 for not getting a chance to play.. know what I mean? Last but not least.. A tournament mode option - for single and team play modes (probably for offline/private matches only). So the main core of the game (ranked matches) wouldn't be tampered with or distracted from. Stats for these tournaments would only be saved between the players involved.

I say make it 2D, the fact that some people use 3D to their advantage, staying far away going in 3D until you get close is just plain cheap, yea I could use it too but it NO fun.

LycaniLLusion .. Seems like what your talking about would be something along the lines of "Killer Instinct" (which would rock),

But with some sidestepping (which I'd not want). You might end up with a fight night type of camera system. Because nothing is more annoying than someone else having control of your camera movement.. especially if all they do is try to run away and/or sidestep.

If arena's have to play a major role in combat.. I'd just prefer mk to either go a smash bros route or a power stone / mk: shaolin monks deathmatch route. Were I'm not limited (movement wise) always locked on facing my opponent or opponents. It's noway to navigate or use an environment to your advantage. Or they could just go the 2d route utilizing what you see to it's fullest quality (like every 2d game does).

@bose645...The Killer Instinct cam example fits the bill with distance,character size and all that but the fight night cam explains the camera movement in rotation perspective. If you could combine the two without the crazy zooms and eye shaking movements of fight night it would be almost exactly what I am talking about. Basically it would seem more like MK:SM than it would Smash Bros. I stated before that a jump button could be added instead of D-pad up and a direction...if a jump button is added than that could technically replace side step also.How your thinking,well pretty much allow the characters to jump towards and backwards like all traditional games but also be able to jump north or south.Just as if you were in MK:SM versus(as you called it death match).
The only difference is the original idea I had was for flat 3d character models so that they look 2d...that is the only reason I made the camera angles and movement a big deal because otherwise the characters would look like walking paper dolls. Either way though these are a pretty damned good examples.
EDIT: I forgot to throw in an example of why a form of 3d movement is needed...arena interactions like structure destruction,death traps and stage fatalities. If there are triggers for these actions you need to be able to get to them some how. Otherwise if they place the triggers in a side scrolled straight 2d environment...that would leave them with little options or the actions will look out of place. Like if there was a pillar in the arena due north of the characters that is destructable...if it were strict 2d it would be impossible to break it unless there was a cinematic sequence triggered. Might as well call it a mini game like the test your might in MKvsDC. That is something I don't care to see personally. I want to be able to get to them areas so it is more logically realistic. I want to believe that the damage was done from my actions at that moment...not the same set actions over and over. All in all...I am picturing medium sized sandbox styled arenas (GTA4 inspiration) with the killer instinct camera fixation and distance...along with the fight night rotation system so that there is no one person in control of the view....hope that is understandable lol. I am not always good with wording things.

well don't mk vs dc is a very crappy game if u ask me out of all the mk games i've been playing over all these years this is the most disappointing one 2 me

@jmo1214...ummm,ok. i know i am not the best typist and i tend to explain things a bit oddly (also lack of proper use of capitalization) but you have no punctuation at all. therefore your last post hardy makes any sense to me. no offense.

LycanILLusion, I think I know exactly what you are talking about now as far as side stepping goes. Characters are pretty much static facing the screen (like 2d fighters - KI is the best example) so.. even when they side step up or down they are still in the same plan whilst the arena would pretty much rotate ( not fast, zoomy or jerky by any means - just for arena positioning) That is a great idea!!.. I think Killer Instinct is the best example and has the best camera for a 2d fighter and in a 3d arena. With the inclusion of sidestepping (minus the pit stages) , with camera changes like the 3d mk's and sfIV special moves, fatalities / stage fatalities only. You'd get the best of both worlds!! I think this would rock!! As far as movement goes (there could be many ways to do it).. a jump button (like you said) might be a way.. or maybe button modifications (something like fight night might work) could be another way.. PS. Sidestepping would be for arena positioning only, not for spear, ice, fire dodging abuse and other annoyances ( like dodging combos) Because regular sidestepping pretty much is what plagues just about every 3d fighter (in my opinion). The camera turning would be just like KI's turning (which is the greatest). Only know you would be able to side step up and down at will with a smooth non-disturbing camera rotation.

@bose645...you got the idea of it. Only thing is on certain stages there would be restrictions. Like the pit stage for example,it would be hard to revolve around an arena based on a bridge-like platform as apposed to lets say the subway stage from MK Armageddon. In a case like that the camera would be exactly like Killer Instinct in the video you posted because Instead of full rotation it would just kinda see saw. Not unless they make you able to fall off the edge or dump my paper modeled character idea so that the camera can use isometric views.
Also I mentioned in my edit above about destructable objects and stuff...if you watch in the Killer instinct video...in one of the stages if you go to the one side there are destructables that seem to come from out of nowhere. I didn't like that because it was not in the arena or made aware of. Basically what I am saying is...we need more interactions within the arena and not just on the sides or outskirts. A good example is the Bell Tower,the bell in the middle was not destructable but it was usable in battle. I am not saying get rid of outskirt interactions...I am just stating do it right. Personally IMO they were going in the right direction with arenas in MK:Armageddon. They didn not take it to the right level in MKvsDC...like the test your might. Running and putting your opponent through walls is kinda cool but it gets old after seeing the same animations over and over. It would have been better if you just went through the one wall and than fight inside the structure you broke into.
I dunno...I wish I could make games because I bet I could blow people away with my ideas.

Honestly, I don't fully understand what your saying, but to me this sidestepping idea sounds a lot like MK4. I hated the sidestepping in MK4. It seemed like a rushed idea they added to the game to capitalize on the 3D fighter craze at the time. To me it makes more sense to have a 2D only plain combined with the fighting of MKvsDC. This would fix problems from the last game and it would be more respectable and less gimicky. I also hope you can turn traps and freefall on and off.

I think it's good that your trying to think of new ideas for MK9 that can incorperate 3D elements with a 2D game. However, I really want a Street Fighter IV of the MK series before they start a new hybrid thing.

I respectfully disagree with you guys. I was disappointed in sf4. I am still playing sc4 while my sf4 collects dust. I don't want the mk series to step backwards. That has been it's main problem since mkda.

In the constant efforts to introduce new elements they discard the ones that are really good and that work.

Take what works and build on that. For all it's problems I thought mk vs dc had a solid game engine that you could really build something really special on.

Mk vs dc really was a 2d game at it's heart I thought. I thought the idea of using the d-pad and the thumbstick to control the 2d and 3d movements separately was brilliant.

I think the projectile tracking needs to be tweaked for sure to make projectiles more useful but I thought the game engine was solid.

That is my 2 cents anyway.

I actually agree with you when it comes to thinking of MKvsDC as a 2D game at heart, and I did think the 3D movement with 2D gameplay was a creative idea. However, my problem though is that most of the flaws in the combat were from the 3D movement, which is another reason why I want MK9 to be 2D. I'm also interested to see what the MK team can come up with by just using a 2D plain.

@jbthrash...I never said that I wanted side stepping. I am basically trying to describe an action adventure type control scheme as in MK:Shaolin Monks. In other words free roam style movement within the respected areas without having side stepping. Although I did mention the fact there should be free angle jumping. Meaning having an actual button for jump...instead of up,d-pad and a direction it would be X-button and direction (speaking for a ps3 controller obviously).

@thrawn...Everything I am describing has nothing to do with the SF4 style at all. I myself rented SF4 and played through with Chun Li and desided to return it the same day. It did not please me at all. As for MK vs DC,it did not feel complete to me...like it was always missing something. And the controls with the analog stick that you liked...I thought was horrible. At times it made me feel like I needed 3 hands to move around in the ways I wanted. I did however enjoy MK vs DC a lot more than SF4. As for SC4,I own it myself and enjoy it but I play MK:Armageddon on my ps2 more than I do any other fighter out right now. I hope I am not let down with Tekken 6.

Well.. I've been doing some more thinking on this and this is what I've come up with...

If "side stepping" were / had to be included.. the only way 2d fighter fans would maybe appreciate / wouldn't mind it.. is if it was done how the current "killer instinct" (arcade games / N64 gold version) pivoting camera is done.

Characters would remain on the same fighting plane at all times!! So side-stepping would pretty much only revolve the background as you do it (for level positioning - setting a guy up for a stage fatality or maybe to get yourself out of corner ... but would never effect your characters fighting plane at all (so you couldn't side-step to dodge projectiles or any attacks for that matter! This is pretty much the only way it can be done.

LycanILLusion... I also took into mind what you've said about objects in stages (like the hanging bodies on the ship, breakable statues in DA, etc...).

As a 2d fighter.. I don't think it's a good idea.. because the objects would / could get in your way. I also remember playing one level in Armageddon that had huge semi breakable pillars (seems good on paper.. but I remember that they were a severe pain in the ass to circle around.. since your camera is always locked in one perspective and your character's body is always locked facing the enemy.. seaming unatural) just doesn't work as you'd like. Also even if the objects are breakable it's still not good.. would distract newbies and more advanced players would use them to their advantage... like... set up someone to back into it (getting stuck) unload a lethal combo or circle around the object and let the other player strike the object till it breaks to get it out of their way (while the other player charges in / hits them with a projectile). At least that's my theory.

As a 3d fighter ... if done like Shaolin Monks.. then objects (breakable / not), death traps, pit spikes, pick up's etc... Would be a big welcome! Who wouldn't love that shaolin monks fixed zoom in/out camera in the Neatherrealm Ship level with hanging bodies you could sprint around and kick into players etc.. They also should have the option of 4 players 1v1 1v2 1v3 , 2v2, 4 player free for all or a 2-4 player coop team against AI enemies, bosses, other kombatants,etc (would be a nice addition 2). Yes I know MK:SM isn't a fighter but would make a great party game if done right.

Someone also mentioned Free Fall and Stage Fatalities. Personally, I am not the biggest fan of free fall.. but it's alright if it's just to get to another part of a stage (like mk III did) but most of the time in 3d versions it just seems to take to damn long and gets repetitive fast! As for stage fatalities.. I like em lots.. but think they should only be done when it's an official finish him (both life bars depleted)! because it's annoying when your life bar is full then one hit ends u and alot of times it's unpredictable weather your to close or not otherwise.

that's all for now

@bose645...you make some valid points but almost all in which have answers to fix if you dig into it more. For instance the obstacles and objects...the ship arena for example...if it were to convert to 2d than just decrease the amount of bodies hanging so its not cluttering the views. As for your thought about the obstacles being a burden and an advantage to veteran players...there is always something a veteran player will have over newcomers no matter what...be it skill,luck or a breakable pillar. A simple way to be fair in that aspect is if a player tries to hide behind these pillars...when breaking the pillars the debris from them could cause damage to the hidden player. Just because it may seem to be a pain in the ass does not mean it isnt worth keeping. If you got into a fight in a wooded area with tons of trees in real life...that would be a pain in the ass too. That is the purpose of the objects...to be obstacles for a challenge.

As for the 3d MK:SM style fighter I was explaining previously and you addressed in your last post.I really think it would be a better way to go than the full 2d aspect. See MK:SM style even though it would be 3d it still captures the graphical feel of the original look of classic 2d MK games. Basically it looks like the 2d games but its also fully capable of having the 3d environments and other elements people might miss. Not only that but like you said...making a fighter in this manner could open up all kinds of online and multiplayer possibilities. You said on your last post "Yes I know MK:SM isn't a fighter but would make a great party game if done right". My exact thought when you said this....what if it was made to be a fighter? And with the UE3 engines capabilities it would look insane. You mentioned up to 4 players...with this style there could possibly be at least 8-16 on screen battles easily. Imagine a free for all mortal kombat battle royal with that many characters trying to kill eachother! Only one word can explain that idea for me...Armageddon! 2d games are great don't get me wrong...I still play MK2 myself and am also a big fan of MK:trilogy but there is so much from the newer games (MK:DA-MK:A) that I myself and am sure that others have grown to love.

Your thoughts on free fall...I am and will always be on the line about it. At times I like the idea but other times it seems like an interactive loading screen. I honestly would not make a big deal if it was removed myself but I would not cry about it making it to the disc either. Stage fatalities to an extent I agree with you...the thing is...the sudden death trap fatalities before the "finish him/her" announcement I think should make a comeback. I say this for newcomers and not so skilled players. LOL me being one of those not so skilled at times enjoyed the fact that if lucky I can still pull off a win. Sure it may seem like the other player is robbed but that is how the cookie crumbles. Just think about how new players feel when they can't win against highly skilled veterans...especially if there are trophies involved. I think every player deserves to get the best experience and have fun.It is not fun after awhile to constantly lose. Early kills and surprise victories gives a balance of fairness to the casual and new players...Just as ring out wins do in other games. Also...an idea that comes to mind is a Rematch option pop up after the match win. This way if there are soar losers they can try to redeem the loss they considered BS lol.

LlycanILLusion... You have also listed some very good valid counter points. That opened my mind to thinking about these things in a new light! That's why I think togglable on/off options are always a good idea (except for ranked matches). Ranked match options should always be in concrete because stats are tracked. But custom game settings in Player and Private matches are always welcomed.

Also.. Your idea with with the mk:sm 16 player armageddon battle would kick some serious ass! Would probably work good online with a set-distance chase camera (something along the lines of conquest).

I also always wondered what it would be like playing mk with more than 2 players at once. Like the 4 player battle mode idea.. from the MK: Deception concept art. Seemed like it had a lot of promise. I just wish they gave it a chance. I always wondered if a simliar camera style like Def Jam: Fight for NY would work well for 4 player MK battles.. except of course I think it should play out like shaolin monks.. multi-directional kombat, free run & look, hold left trigger -xbox & left bumper -ps to lock onto an enemy. The usual locking onto a guy with that aki engine always being mandatory was always annoying to me in the def jam and nwo aki wrestling games. Because it's not what you want to do when fighting against more than one enemy. Especially when your out#'ed, one guys knocks you over.. you get up automatically face him.. then the other guy hits you (you face him).. then it repeats itself. Shaolin monks multi enemy hitting was pretty much a breakthrough in that department!

@bose645...Man,just a mention of Def Jam made me ill. That game was horrible and if MK were anything like it I would probably not even give it a rent. MK9 will more than likely be close to what MK vs DC came out to be anyways but the best out of this thread we got IMO is the Shoalin Monks Fighter style ideas...even though in some ways it is off topic because than we are talking 3d instead of 2d. Also,you mentioned toggling...why don't they do that for side stepping? It could be disabled and the 3d movements some people get frustrated with will enjoy 2d action but it can also be enabled for the full 3d experience.

@ LlycanILLusion

Haha.. I new my mentioning of def jam would make someone stomach curdle!! I was just suggesting it from a 4 player camera perspective standpoint (but I think the shoalin monks camera setup would work just fine).

Well.. I was doing some youtube mortal kombat 2d & 3d observations / comparisons. What I came up with was.. the 2d games seemed to flow alot better with more precise actions, animations etc.. (but still have corny fatalities, to many gibs etc..). The 3d games look nice... (but the motion capture animations seem slow.. sometimes awkward - while idle.. players heads sway from side to side taking their eyes off of their opponents, & side stepping reminded me of why I am not a fan of 3d fighters at all!! Especially when the series started out as 2d!

So... I pretty much agree with you (Lycan) on just about all fronts.

Here's my final list

Make MK9 (this way)

Graphics - 3d (everything! fighters / levels, visuals: could be.. cel-shaded / rotoscoped (If done right!), just make sure you keep the MK feel !!)

Gameplay - 2d (Everything! - Frames, animations etc.. "Killer Instinct" style camera.. fighters always remain on a 2d plane, If side stepping had to be in - it would never break the 2d fighting plane or players positioning towards the camera!!.. only the level would rotate accordingly. KI camera worked perfect! Would be awesome for the newest mk game)

Also.. Don't forget the team mode (l've listed) and the shaolin monks deathmatch mode LycanILLusion listed.

Last but no least... Replay camera options like SFIV has got.

Thank You

PS. I list the same things over and over again for a reason! (hoping a developer from Midway stumbles upon them and the sh** actually happens!)