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John Vogel has got to go *spoiler free*
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posted04/28/2011 11:45 PM (UTC)by
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Vash_15
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01/16/2006 05:32 PM (UTC)
It's true. The man is a horrible head writer. Time and time again he has never failed to disappoint. From generic stories to outright bad ones, this man has let us down time and time again. I'm not saying he doesn't do some good things, but it seems there's always more bad than good in everything he's done since MKDA.

His crowning achievement was the Deception story and even that's not saying much, because while the story was tolerable, Shukinko was a character bland enough to make Ryu seem Shakespearean. Yes, I read the new MK story, and while I won't say anything, it seems that I and plenty of other people are disappointed with a lot of what happens. Yes, I realize he's been on since the beginning, but that doesn't mean he has a place in the game today.

Going back to his most recent work, MKA, I feel like he was almost going out of his way to make sure we felt completely underwhelmed. It had all the writing talent of a Saturday morning cartoon. Which brings me to my next point, MK vs DC was one of the best stories MK cranked out in years.

Why? Because they had real writers. I'm not saying the story was perfect, far from it. But at least characters had motivation for what they were doing. There was a logical blockade keeping them from understanding each others' intentions. People didn't just team up because they were from MK or DC, they still fought each other like they normally would.

Now these may just be the ramblings of a bored guy at 5:45 AM, but I feel like in 12 hours, I'll still feel this way. John Vogel has run his course, it's time for someone else to start writing MK
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saiZero
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 •03/10/2011 11:24 AM (UTC) •
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Vash_15 Wrote:
It's true. The man is a horrible head writer. Time and time again he has failed to disappoint.


He has failed to dissapoint? Doesn't seem like you're any better at writing either, and guess what? You'r not even on a budget schedule... which brings me to my next point.
They had a semi legitimate excuse for MKA not having a single story element worth remembering. Midway executives were always up their ass needing quantity over quality. The MK team were more focused on producing everything but great stories in that game.
Deception brought us a konquest that we never had before. They needed to find a hero whose neck wasn't snapped by shang tsung to fit in their onaga sotryline and make it last enough to be believable. Shujinko did in fact suck, but trying to take one of our already existing heros and throw them in shujinkos story would have been a bigger disaster.
as far as MK9s leaked pile of steaming horse shit endings.... I don't know if we can blame just one man. But I sure as fuck know we need tobais.
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Chrome
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 •03/10/2011 11:56 AM (UTC) •
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I am more interested in what they want to do with this reboot and recontinuation than anything previously written. And finally give closure to the original timeline, Kahn wins the end, apocalypse and probably the eventual rise of the One Being into a singular universe.


This is more interesting than anything since the heydays of MK.
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Jaded-Raven
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 •03/11/2011 07:25 AM (UTC) •
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John Tobias' writing was bland compared to John Vogel's!

The storyline post-MK3 has been very interesting and sparked new life to the MK storyline in my opinion. MKDA, MKD and MKA might not have been the best MK's amongst the series gameplay wise, but storyline wise it has been ever expanding and evolved, and the new Mortal Kombat's storyline is amazing!

Just because you don't like the way the storyline has headed doesn't mean John Vogel is incompetent. I, for one, support him.
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Bezou
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 •03/11/2011 08:43 PM (UTC) •
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John Vogel is finally getting it right. I think even he realizes what an unbelievable clusterfuck the last 4 games have been and is taking steps to avoid that in the future.
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AloneBadman
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 •03/12/2011 03:25 AM (UTC) •
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I like Vogel. He's got a rein on the characters. You give Tobias too much credit as a writer. I like him as an artist. Half of his endings either revolved around the bad guy's blowing up the earth or just cheesy "the good guy" wins style ending. Now, Tobias is a decent writer, but my personal opinion is Vogel remains the stronger of the two.

Yes some of the character's he's created are bland and generic. I will give you that. Keep in mind, though. Who has always been in the background buzzing with "sweet ideas?"

Ed.

Now think about it. People sometimes think that Vogel is the only one writing the story. It's not. In the past, it seems as if Ed has alot of weight on the way the story goes. Someone pointed out in an earlier thread that Ed likes clear cut good vs evil style stories, where as Vogel likes the greyness (Chaos, Seido)

What should happen is Ed focuses on the overall development and his area of expertise and let someone with competent writing skills plot the story. It's a fighting game. You don't have treat them as a seperate process, but having someone who is consistent with characterization and maintaining the "established" personalities while introducing character development. And I'm taking about the script, I'm not talking about cutscenes or anything involving the other department. I really want to see what Vogel could do without Ed breathing down his neck.

It could epic or it could be complete shit. I'm willing to give Vogel one shot and that's it to prove himself without the big man's input for once.
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Joe-Von-Zombie
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 •03/14/2011 04:45 AM (UTC) •
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Jimmy Palmiotti and Justin Grey didn't write MK Vs DCU they were consultants on the project to ensure brand integrity, to basically make sure Batman was doing things that Batman would actually do. That story was still written by Vogel

Vogel > Tobias


Just because you didn't like the direction they took doesn't make it bad.
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Jaded-Raven
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 •03/14/2011 04:52 AM (UTC) •
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Two words: Tao Feng.

That's why Vogel is better than Tobias.
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Chino_Cheng
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 •03/15/2011 03:51 AM (UTC) •
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saiZero Wrote:
Vash_15 Wrote:
But I sure as fuck know we need tobais.


Definantly. Everything since MK4 was a total abomination.
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Chino_Cheng
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 •03/15/2011 03:56 AM (UTC) •
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Joe-Von-Zombie Wrote:

Vogel > Tobias


Incorrect
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Chrome
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 •03/15/2011 02:21 PM (UTC) •
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Chino_Cheng Wrote:
Joe-Von-Zombie Wrote:

Vogel > Tobias


Incorrect


Incorrect.

We can throw stuff around too.
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Bezou
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 •03/15/2011 02:36 PM (UTC) •
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Sweet? We're doing lame internet cliches?

Has anyone busted out the hilarious image macros yet?



Creative AND original!
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Jaded-Raven
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 •03/15/2011 05:47 PM (UTC) •
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Bezou Wrote:
Sweet? We're doing lame internet cliches?

Has anyone busted out the hilarious image macros yet?



Creative AND original!


XD
I'm thinking "Two stupid dogs" cartoons...
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RocketBoy
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 •03/17/2011 07:30 AM (UTC) •
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Personally I think we need an entirely new writer or group of writers. Someone who respects and game and the fans.

I haven't read the new story or character endings yet, but from the little I have seen I'm not really happy.

Spoilers: (Highlight to reveal)
Cyber Sub kind of pisses me off. I guess I've never really liked robots, but this just seems extra stupid to me.

And I also read something about Kitana that makes me unhappy


I'm still crazy excited for this game and I know I can't expect to like every aspect of a game's story. Both writers have written some great things, and both have written some pretty lame things. I just think it's time we let someone else have a shot at it.
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Mick-Lucifer
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 •03/17/2011 11:05 AM (UTC) •
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Can Vogel really be blamed for the situation MK is in right now?
If you search hard enough you can find some quotes about his disappointment in the direction of Armageddon. He almost certainly had no say in the overall direction of the current game, so at the end of the day, is he really to blame? I think not.

MK definitely could benefit from some changes, but the games that let the writer make any kind of significant impression were Deadly Alliance and Deception. For my money, MKDA was the high point of the series, and MKD was certainly a more conceptually palatable attempt to combine the familiar with the different. Since those games, the series and it's writer(s) have been lumped with high concept directions that make no attempt to relate to the natural flow of the story and characters.

If you're going to hang someone, I hate to say it, but maybe it should be someone closer to the top. Someone less concerned with the writing and quality of concepts within the fiction. Someone like Ed Boon.

I don't think Vogel has been given enough rope to hang himself, yet.
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BiohazardEXTREME
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 •03/18/2011 07:04 AM (UTC) •
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That's such destructive thinking though. Vogel did a great job on the Armageddon bios that he made, trying desperately to justify why every single fighter was in the game.

The direction of the overall plot up until Armageddon started kinda sucking, even with Deception. But it's not so much about who they should get rid of, it's about who they shoud hire. Now, why the hell isn't Tobias back with the team? Are we supposed to believe that he has something better to do?
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Joe-Von-Zombie
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 •03/18/2011 07:31 AM (UTC) •
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BiohazardEXTREME Wrote:
That's such destructive thinking though. Vogel did a great job on the Armageddon bios that he made, trying desperately to justify why every single fighter was in the game.

The direction of the overall plot up until Armageddon started kinda sucking, even with Deception. But it's not so much about who they should get rid of, it's about who they shoud hire. Now, why the hell isn't Tobias back with the team? Are we supposed to believe that he has something better to do?


Could possibly be because he chooses not to be. He isn't the answer either. MK4 was trash and that was all him. I say hire an ACTUAL professional writer, Hell Warner Bros, has a 1000 of em at their disposal.
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BiohazardEXTREME
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 •03/18/2011 08:50 AM (UTC) •
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Joe-Von-Zombie Wrote:
BiohazardEXTREME Wrote:
That's such destructive thinking though. Vogel did a great job on the Armageddon bios that he made, trying desperately to justify why every single fighter was in the game.

The direction of the overall plot up until Armageddon started kinda sucking, even with Deception. But it's not so much about who they should get rid of, it's about who they shoud hire. Now, why the hell isn't Tobias back with the team? Are we supposed to believe that he has something better to do?


Could possibly be because he chooses not to be. He isn't the answer either. MK4 was trash and that was all him. I say hire an ACTUAL professional writer, Hell Warner Bros, has a 1000 of em at their disposal.

Why would he choose not to be though? It doesn't make sense to me. I mean, the company he tried to get going failed, with Tao Feng and all.

But it's not like they're just gonna give it to a writer and say, "Do whatever you want." Either way, they will dictate the actual events that take place. The only thing the writer would do is make the script itself better.
MK4's premise was cool, though. The whole Elder God ordeal was pretty awesome. It was the gameplay and the character animations that made MK4 a sub-par game.

Besides, if you give MK to a writer who hasn't worked with the franchise before or extensively, chances are, he'll miss something or take some lore from the movies or take artistic license, and then you'll have a slew of fanboys bitching about inconsistencies.
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Mick-Lucifer
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 •03/18/2011 12:46 PM (UTC) •
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Joe-Von-Zombie Wrote:
Could possibly be because he chooses not to be. He isn't the answer either. MK4 was trash and that was all him. I say hire an ACTUAL professional writer, Hell Warner Bros, has a 1000 of em at their disposal.

In a perfect world, a writer who's comfortable with the genre and medium, who could potentially direct the course of an entire game, too.
I mean, Jimmy Palmiotti is no schlub in the writing department, but if you plonk them down at a desk and shove a ham-fisted high concept and no room to work in, you're signing your own cheque for failure no matter who's involved.
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Chino_Cheng
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 •03/19/2011 07:26 AM (UTC) •
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Joe-Von-Zombie Wrote:
BiohazardEXTREME Wrote:
That's such destructive thinking though. Vogel did a great job on the Armageddon bios that he made, trying desperately to justify why every single fighter was in the game.

The direction of the overall plot up until Armageddon started kinda sucking, even with Deception. But it's not so much about who they should get rid of, it's about who they shoud hire. Now, why the hell isn't Tobias back with the team? Are we supposed to believe that he has something better to do?


Could possibly be because he chooses not to be. He isn't the answer either. MK4 was trash and that was all him. I say hire an ACTUAL professional writer, Hell Warner Bros, has a 1000 of em at their disposal.


Are you sure?
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MEGAFIRE
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Mortal Kombat -------------------------- 7/10
Mortal Kombat II --------------------- 9.5/10
Mortal Kombat 3 --------------------- 7.5/10
Mortal Kombat 4 ----------------------- 6/10
Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance - 10/10
Mortal Kombat: Deception ---------- 8/10
Mortal Kombat: Armageddon ------ 4/10
Mortal Kombat Vs. DC Universe -- 7/10
Mortal Kombat (2011) -------------- 9.5/10

•03/20/2011 07:29 AM (UTC) •
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Both Vogel and Tobias have their strengths and weaknesses. Personally I thought the storylines for DA and Deception were damn well done. Much better when compared to the crap of MK4. MKA was bad, but that whole game sucked and felt forced out by Midway anyways.

In assessment; MK needs a new writer, and it should be me! (;
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Vash_15
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 •03/24/2011 09:47 PM (UTC) •
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Mick makes a lot of good points. I honestly, at the time of posting, hadn't considered executive meddling. No matter how many good (or bad) ideas Vogel or any one else comes up with, they're all at the mercy of Boon's approval. Hell, they could've come up with the greatest story in the world, and had it denied because it wasn't straightforward enough for Ed. If it's true that Ed's a good vs evil kind of guy, I feel like he has been giving the story little room to move, and that Vogel may not be entirely to blame for how things have turned out
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Joe-Von-Zombie
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 •03/25/2011 04:44 AM (UTC) •
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Mick-Lucifer Wrote:
Joe-Von-Zombie Wrote:
Could possibly be because he chooses not to be. He isn't the answer either. MK4 was trash and that was all him. I say hire an ACTUAL professional writer, Hell Warner Bros, has a 1000 of em at their disposal.

In a perfect world, a writer who's comfortable with the genre and medium, who could potentially direct the course of an entire game, too.
I mean, Jimmy Palmiotti is no schlub in the writing department, but if you plonk them down at a desk and shove a ham-fisted high concept and no room to work in, you're signing your own cheque for failure no matter who's involved.


I see your point but remember, Jimmy Palmiotti didn't write nor conceive any part of the MK Vs DCU story. He was there to ensure brand integrity, to make sure the that Batman was doing things that Batman would actually do. John Vogel wrote MKDC's story.

Now lets hypothetically reverse the scenario:

Lets have Jimmy Palmiotti write a story for a MK game and have John Vogel and since this is hypothetical, John Tobias in the fold to ensure brand integrity,

I think we would get a much better story in the end.
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ermacandcheese
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 •03/26/2011 04:22 PM (UTC) •
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Anyone who disses Tobias obviously has not read the backstory for Mythologies. That shit is genius.

The story has been balls since Deadly Alliance. And the character design.
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DeadmanWalking
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 •03/26/2011 08:05 PM (UTC) •
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Three Words.... MANAGEMENT:
Ed Boon approves and disapprove of every storyline, character, fatality when he wants to. Vogel CAN'T be blamed for the actions of Boon. And if its true that he's pro "Good Guy vs Bad Guy" then he might as well turn MK back into 2D because that era has been LONG GONE.
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