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unseenwombat
05/05/2011 05:46 PM (UTC)
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Hatetriot Wrote:
unseenwombat Wrote:have blonde hair and blue eyes, but with otherwise Australoid features, speak Swahili as their native language and we should only be TOLD they're asian.


See that's where you shot yourself in the foot. Are you still mad that Li Mei and Taki don't look like YOUR idea of what an Asian looks like?
I shot myself in the foot? WTF are you talking about. Yes, Taki and Li Mei should look like an accurate representation of the race they're supposed to be a part of. If we were told that Li Mei had parents of two different races, like we are about Sub Zero, I and everyone else (who doesn't have a chip on their shoulder to defend the world against their idea of racism) would expect her to look the way she does.

If Li Mei's look is so appropriate in your opinion, then go find me a picture of an asian female she actually looks like. (And don't come back with that BS about her being Edenian again.) You can't because there isn't one. Unless of course, she's of mixed race.
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ZeroSymbolic7188
05/05/2011 05:55 PM (UTC)
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Hatetriot Wrote:
ZeroSymbolic7188 Wrote:you want that character to be a very definite representation of that minority, because one is all you get. Its not about stereotyping as much as it is about epitomizing.



Oh yeah because everyone wants a stereotypical Asian, amirite?
Why can't I just have a great character that just happens to be Asian?
Do they really have to be born in Asia, wear kimonos, and speak an Asian language?


On the first question, Yes you do have to be born in Asia to be an Asian. Thats kind of the literal meaning of the word. You can be of Asian decent, but if you were born in America, live in America, and have never been to Asia, your an American.

As far as the rest goes. We dont need a stereotypical representation. We just want a character that is noticeably representing a specific race, otherwise the game lacks diversity and thats not fun.
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unseenwombat
05/05/2011 05:56 PM (UTC)
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McHotcakes Wrote:
The first thing I would like to add is that as you've said yes if you did take a tribe from the middle of Africa and dubbed them up north, just for lolz, then in a few generations they would start to look whiter or more caucasian. But that really reinforces my argument. The fact that one group of people would start to take on the physical characteristics of another just by changing enviornment works against the concept of races, because it shows we all have the potential to change into any other "race" if the conditions were right. The simple fact that there would even be any change lessens the value set upon races.

I don't believe that happens as fast as you make it out to. Blacks that have been taken out of Africa to other continents as slaves haven't really whitened up any, unless they interbred with the white population. Just left on their own, it would take dozens of generations at least. IMO, that's enough to say that their physical traits are now more a part of them than their environment.

McHotcakes Wrote:
Second I know you don't want the "bucktooth" asian sterotype and I didn't mean to insinuate that that was you wanted. I just meant that if you set out to create a character who is Asian, just to make an Asian character it can lead to using sterotype,s because being Asian would become the character's defining trait. Take Nightwolf he is a pretty paper thin stereotype IMO. I mean they set out to make a Native American character and took all the cliches they could think of to make it. The reason why we don't have a problem with him is he is for the most part a positive stereotype, if they're is such a thing. He is a noble hero, but at the same time he is clearly defined by his ethnicity.

I don't think Nightwolf is paper thin at all. His "noble warrior" character puts him above that.

Now as for Ja,x he is clearly balck. I don't think he should be ambiguously black at all. But being black isn't his defining characteristic. He is a military man with with metal arms. That's the first thing of when I think about Jax, not his skin color. He could just as easily be Asian or Hispanic and still be the same character.So I don't see Jax as being a stereotype.

Yet he's a rallying point for black guys who like MK. Not all, but I know of quite a few who have explicitly said that they want to play as a black guy in the game and Jax is their man. His metal arms or military background are just as much a part of his character as his race.

ZeroSymbolic7188 Wrote:
As far as the rest goes. We dont need a stereotypical representation. We just want a character that is noticeably representing a specific race, otherwise the game lacks diversity and thats not fun.

Exactly. Why is this so hard to get across? And while Li Mei is nice in theory, they made a mess of her looks. (Related mostly to the graphics of the era, but still, other games have done better).
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Historical Favorite
05/05/2011 05:58 PM (UTC)
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unseenwombat Wrote:
If Li Mei's look is so appropriate in your opinion, then go find me a picture of an asian female she actually looks like. (And don't come back with that BS about her being Edenian again.) You can't because there isn't one. Unless of course, she's of mixed race.


Considering that you don't think Li Mei looks asian, wouldn't "that BS about her being Edenian" only serve your point?
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TheAdder
05/05/2011 06:04 PM (UTC)
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Damn it Wombat, watch the video.
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unseenwombat
05/05/2011 06:04 PM (UTC)
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OptimusGrime Wrote:
unseenwombat Wrote:
If Li Mei's look is so appropriate in your opinion, then go find me a picture of an asian female she actually looks like. (And don't come back with that BS about her being Edenian again.) You can't because there isn't one. Unless of course, she's of mixed race.


Considering that you don't think Li Mei looks asian, wouldn't "that BS about her being Edenian" only serve your point?
Right, but (I think), they meant for her to be an asian character. Given the name, the clothes, and the horrible squinty slanty eyes, which are more racist than anything even the flamers in this thread could accuse me of coming up with.
TheAdder Wrote:
Damn it Wombat, watch the video.
lol sorry. Okay.
Hm, yeah, I guess you're right. I take back my comment about JapANESE developers hating their own race. Maybe it's just that animators are too lazy to make a well-defined face, because now I see all animated characters, western or JapANESE have a roundish face.
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ZeroSymbolic7188
05/05/2011 06:07 PM (UTC)
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This whole thread revolves around 1 point that wombat and I are trying to make:


Noticeable Recognition is not the same as Stereotypical representation. We would just like to see more obviously diverse characters. It would be cool if kombatants from outworld and edenia did look less earthlike. NRS could do a better job of making characters of different backgrounds more unique.
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McHotcakes
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"Never Stay Down"- Steve Rogers

05/05/2011 06:11 PM (UTC)
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unseenwombat Wrote:
McHotcakes Wrote:
The first thing I would like to add is that as you've said yes if you did take a tribe from the middle of Africa and dubbed them up north, just for lolz, then in a few generations they would start to look whiter or more caucasian. But that really reinforces my argument. The fact that one group of people would start to take on the physical characteristics of another just by changing enviornment works against the concept of races, because it shows we all have the potential to change into any other "race" if the conditions were right. The simple fact that there would even be any change lessens the value set upon races.

I don't believe that happens as fast as you make it out to. Blacks that have been taken out of Africa to other continents as slaves haven't really whitened up any, unless they interbred with the white population. Just left on their own, it would take dozens of generations at least. IMO, that's enough to say that their physical traits are now more a part of them than their environment.

McHotcakes Wrote:
Second I know you don't want the "bucktooth" asian sterotype and I didn't mean to insinuate that that was you wanted. I just meant that if you set out to create a character who is Asian, just to make an Asian character it can lead to using sterotype,s because being Asian would become the character's defining trait. Take Nightwolf he is a pretty paper thin stereotype IMO. I mean they set out to make a Native American character and took all the cliches they could think of to make it. The reason why we don't have a problem with him is he is for the most part a positive stereotype, if they're is such a thing. He is a noble hero, but at the same time he is clearly defined by his ethnicity.

I don't think Nightwolf is paper thin at all. His "noble warrior" character puts him above that.

Now as for Ja,x he is clearly balck. I don't think he should be ambiguously black at all. But being black isn't his defining characteristic. He is a military man with with metal arms. That's the first thing of when I think about Jax, not his skin color. He could just as easily be Asian or Hispanic and still be the same character.So I don't see Jax as being a stereotype.

Yet he's a rallying point for black guys who like MK. Not all, but I know of quite a few who have explicitly said that they want to play as a black guy in the game and Jax is their man. His metal arms or military background are just as much a part of his character as his race.


ZeroSymbolic7188 Wrote:
As far as the rest goes. We dont need a stereotypical representation. We just want a character that is noticeably representing a specific race, otherwise the game lacks diversity and thats not fun.


Exactly. Why is this so hard to get across? And while Li Mei is nice in theory, they made a mess of her looks. (Related mostly to the graphics of the era, but still, other games have done better).


Well the first point if you were to compare the skin color of the average black person in America to the skin color of someone who lives near the equater in Africa then the person from Africa would have significantly darker skin color than the American. This shows a gradual lightening of the skin over the course of a couple hundred years.

Secondly, my view of a generation is about every fifty years or so. So when I mean ten to twenty generations I actually mean 500 to 1,000 years. And even then I don't think the African tribe in Northern Europe would look just like the natives but would start to resemble them.

As for Nightwolf, he pretty much is a walking stereotype. Many people see Native Americans as being "one with the spirit world" and being able to talk to spirit animals and such. Well that's pretty much Nightwolf. He's about as "noble savage" as you can get, but that's just my opinion. To each his own.
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unseenwombat
05/05/2011 06:20 PM (UTC)
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McHotcakes Wrote:
Secondly, my view of a generation is about every fifty years or so. So when I mean ten to twenty generations I actually mean 500 to 1,000 years. And even then I don't think the African tribe in Northern Europe would look just like the natives but would start to resemble them.
I agree with that. That's a darn long time to say that a trait, which wouldn't even be totally evolved out, isn't an integral part of one specific individual today though.

Speaking of which, how long does it take for one species, isolated from the main group, to become a separate species? twice as long? 5, 10, 20 times as long?

Whatever it is, it seems to me that the difference between speciation and uh, raciation, is just a difference in time. Which makes it very definitely a biological phenomenon, contrary to what the "studies" say. Though maybe I'm just misunderstanding it.

*Waits for hateriot to come in and accuse me of calling other races a separate species.*

But like I said, even if race is just a social construct, the game is made by and for social people. So why shouldn't we have such social constructs in the game? And why is asking for them "racist?"

If I say I'd like to have a construction worker character with a hardhat, overalls and an orange safety vest (To be part of my Village People tag team roster lol), does that make me an "occupationist," because I want him to wear the clothes that are typical of one in his position? Hell no, and neither does asking for an asian character with typical (not stereotypical) features make me a racist.

And if adder and hateriot can't understand that, then I don't know what to say to you anymore. Go ahead and think what you will.
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Hatetriot
05/05/2011 06:50 PM (UTC)
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unseenwombat Wrote:
But like I said, even if race is just a social construct, the game is made by and for social people. So why shouldn't we have such social constructs in the game? And why is asking for them "racist?"



Asking for them isn't racist. However claiming mixed people or people that don't look like your cookie-cutter image of Asians are poor representations of Asians is indeed racist.
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ZeroSymbolic7188
05/05/2011 06:56 PM (UTC)
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Hatetriot Wrote:
unseenwombat Wrote:
But like I said, even if race is just a social construct, the game is made by and for social people. So why shouldn't we have such social constructs in the game? And why is asking for them "racist?"



Asking for them isn't racist. However claiming mixed people or people that don't look like your cookie-cutter image of Asians are poor representations of Asians is indeed racist.
'

He isnt saying that though. He is saying he wants them to be more distinguished because right now in MK its hard to determine.
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unseenwombat
05/05/2011 07:04 PM (UTC)
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Hatetriot Wrote:
unseenwombat Wrote:
But like I said, even if race is just a social construct, the game is made by and for social people. So why shouldn't we have such social constructs in the game? And why is asking for them "racist?"



Asking for them isn't racist. However claiming mixed people or people that don't look like your cookie-cutter image of Asians are poor representations of Asians is indeed racist.
Jeesh, mixed asians are not asians. They are mixed. My daughter is not asian, she is 50% asian. My wife is fully asian.
I have no problem with Sub Zero. He is half asian. Great. How about we have someone who is fully asian? How about we have her be a female? Would that be so bad? That's all I'm asking.

And if you don' t know the typical features of an asian female, here: Broader skull, broader face, flat roof of the nose, inner eye fold, more protuberant eyes, lack of brow ridges, greater delicacy of bones, shallow mandibular fossa, small mastoid processes, stocky build, persistence of thymus gland into adult life, persistence of juvenile form of zygomatic muscle, persistence of juvenile form of superior lip muscle, less hairy, fewer sweat glands, fewer hairs per square centimeter [and] long torso just so you know it's not only my "cookie cutter image," that's what I'd like a female asian character to look like. Is that racist now?

F***.
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Hatetriot
05/05/2011 07:09 PM (UTC)
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And Li Mei doesn't have any of those traits?
HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Man, why are you so racist? Mixed Asians can't qualify as being Asian?
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unseenwombat
05/05/2011 07:14 PM (UTC)
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Hatetriot Wrote:


And Li Mei doesn't have any of those traits?
HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Man, why are you so racist? Mixed Asians can't qualify as being Asian?
Right. I'm racist. Against Asians no less. I'm going to go lynch myself for being a blood traitor.

GTFO my thread.
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ZeroSymbolic7188
05/05/2011 07:14 PM (UTC)
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Hatetriot Wrote:


And Li Mei doesn't have any of those traits?
HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Man, why are you so racist? Mixed Asians can't qualify as being Asian?


Im calling troll now.
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unseenwombat
05/05/2011 07:19 PM (UTC)
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ZeroSymbolic7188 Wrote:
Im calling troll now.
Yeah, I don't see any point in continuing the discussion with him.

Besides, "According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, in particular to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups."

I never said that the asian group was inferior. If anything, I've indicated they were SUPerior as their females are more attractive. So, if I'm racist against any group, it's my own and any others that are NOT asian.

Of course, now we've forgotten what the topic was about with all the attacks and rebuttals and side discussions about Jade and Jax.

I guess we were never on topic, since from the very start I was called a racist.

Um...

So how about that Lady in Purple? She might be asian! I mean, we can't really see her features too well. Though I think she's more likely black or indian or middle eastern maybe. That's why I think she's related to Jade.
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TheAdder
05/05/2011 07:23 PM (UTC)
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unseenwombat Wrote:
If I say I'd like to have a construction worker character with a hardhat, overalls and an orange safety vest (To be part of my Village People tag team roster lol), does that make me an "occupationist," because I want him to wear the clothes that are typical of one in his position? Hell no, and neither does asking for an asian character with typical (not stereotypical) features make me a racist.

And if adder and hateriot can't understand that, then I don't know what to say to you anymore. Go ahead and think what you will.

1. I never said you were racist. I strongly implied, and stand by the notion, that your posts have been patently ridiculous for the most part, but I do NOT throw the words "racist" or "racism" around lightly, because I have been on the receiving end of real racism.

2. There is about a 1/1000th difference in the genome of ANY two given human beings. Somewhere in a tiny insignificant corner of that 1/1000th of the human genome is found anything that differentiates race. This is why race is nothing at all like species (Dog/Wolf for example). Hell, it's not even comparable to breeds of the same species (Cocker-spaniel/Labrador). It's like different coat colors and builds between the same breed of dog.
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ZeroSymbolic7188
05/05/2011 07:43 PM (UTC)
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TheAdder Wrote:
unseenwombat Wrote:
If I say I'd like to have a construction worker character with a hardhat, overalls and an orange safety vest (To be part of my Village People tag team roster lol), does that make me an "occupationist," because I want him to wear the clothes that are typical of one in his position? Hell no, and neither does asking for an asian character with typical (not stereotypical) features make me a racist.

And if adder and hateriot can't understand that, then I don't know what to say to you anymore. Go ahead and think what you will.


1. I never said you were racist. I strongly implied, and stand by the notion, that your posts have been patently ridiculous for the most part, but I do NOT throw the words "racist" or "racism" around lightly, because I have been on the receiving end of real racism.

2. There is about a 1/1000th difference in the genome of ANY two given human beings. Somewhere in a tiny insignificant corner of that 1/1000th of the human genome is found anything that differentiates race. This is why race is nothing at all like species (Dog/Wolf for example). Hell, it's not even comparable to breeds of the same species (Cocker-spaniel/Labrador). It's like different coat colors and builds between the same breed of dog.


GOD USED PALETTE SWAPS!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK1Pjgix79k
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Xorch
05/05/2011 07:49 PM (UTC)
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Why does it matter if there are Asian females in MK or not? I'm not trying to sound racist by this statement either, but if a fighter of a certain race or ethnicity is put into MK just to satisfy a quota than that's retarded! I'm not against putting fighters of all races in a MK game but the decision to do so should be based on the overall design of each character and their story lines and deciding what is most befitting to each character's placement within the mythology of the series. Many of the more recent "new" fighters created in the last few MK game installments have been weak in my opinion anyway so simply creating new fighters based on their races seems ill-advised to me? The real pressing issue i'm curious to know is why every female appearing in an MK game always has double-d breasts? lol. I know the point is to make them sexy and appealing but at some point it would be nice if they looked like real women! lol
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ZeroSymbolic7188
05/05/2011 08:21 PM (UTC)
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Xorch Wrote:
Why JAD does it matter if there are Asian females in MK or not? I'm not trying to sound racist by this statement either, but if a fighter of a certain race or ethnicity is put into MK just to satisfy a quota than that's retarded! I'm not against putting fighters of all races in a MK game but the decision to do so should be based on the overall design of each character and their story lines and deciding what is most befitting to each character's placement within the mythology of the series. Many of the more recent "new" fighters created in the last few MK game installments have been weak in my opinion anyway so simply creating new fighters based on their races seems ill-advised to me? The real pressing issue i'm curious to know is why every female appearing in an MK game always has double-d breasts? lol. I know the point is to make them sexy and appealing but at some point it would be nice if they looked like real women! lol


They do look like real women.

JADE
http://obsoletegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/mortal-kombat-cosplay.jpg

KITANA
http://www.robotvsbadger.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/kitana-1.jpg

MILEENA
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1886/1161891516548xy8.jpg


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Led_Auditore
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-courtesy from MINION-

05/05/2011 08:27 PM (UTC)
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ZeroSymbolic7188 Wrote:
Jade



Kitana Mileena :D
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Jethy
05/05/2011 08:56 PM (UTC)
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Hatetriot Wrote:
Jethy Wrote:
Grow up, who cares what race the character you're playing as is?
it's kind of pathetic


Who cares about the personalities and motivations of a character you are playing as?
It's kind of pathetic.


I wonder what that has to do with the colour of your character's skin.
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TheAdder
05/05/2011 08:58 PM (UTC)
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Jethy Wrote:
Hatetriot Wrote:
Jethy Wrote:
Grow up, who cares what race the character you're playing as is?
it's kind of pathetic


Who cares about the personalities and motivations of a character you are playing as?
It's kind of pathetic.


I wonder what that has to do with the colour of your character's skin.


Potentially nothing, potentially a whole hell of a lot. Depends on the character and the world they're in.
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Dontex
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05/05/2011 09:15 PM (UTC)
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I Like Asian Women...but if you really want Asian women in a fighting game that bad... play Tekken
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skyboy
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05/06/2011 12:35 AM (UTC)
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hmmm, If your daughter is half asian, than she is asian. This isn't Imitation of Life. I'm black and mexican, if someone asks if I'm one or the other, I say "yeah, and I'm also _____". Mixed isn't a race or an ethnicity
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