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To subzero961:
Yes, we were told to suspend disbelief in regards to the deaths of various characters in MKSM. However, there are still three main problems with this. The first problem is with Jade's death, which there's a following scene that involves Kitana scolding Liu Kang/Kung Lao. Is that part supposed to be non-canon as well? Then there's Mileena not being killed. Sure, some might say that it happened sometime after Mileena captures Kitana, but still, there's no real reference in MKSM itself. The other problem lies within the belief that it'd be less fun for the bosses to run away. It doesn't really have to be like that.
The outfit stuff is kind of a nitpicky thing along with things like Johnny Cage having blond hair in the intro and ending instead of brown hair.
There is a big contradiction with Kung Lao's personality. He's supposed to be the reluctant hero, someone who didn't want to fall into the same trap as his ancestor. However, in MKSM, Kung Lao is a selfish, jealous asshole who desires to become the Mortal Kombat champion thus his little rivalry with Liu Kang. Basically, Kung Lao has become what XiahouDun84 calls one of the most cliched archetypes, the hothead.
The Johnny Cage/Goro thing was silly and especially with the way Goro died was extremely embarassing for him. Kind of makes someone wonder why the Original Kung Lao also didn't try to go for Goro's "family jewels". Goro exiled himself and was thought to have been killed yet Mileena, Kitana, and most likely others like Shao Kahn, know of Goro's whereabouts. That completely contradicts his story in MK4.
The whole Shao Kahn/Quan Chi thing was a giant mess. First off, it was Liu Kang who fought and defeated Shao Kahn, not a combination of Liu Kang and Kung Lao.
Quan Chi appeared in MKSM's ending in his MKDA/MKA look, including tattoos, which doesn't make sense at all, unless there's some kind of time travel story involved that'll be covered in Quan Chi's MKA bio, which would be ridiculous.
How could Shao Kahn have obtained Shinnok's amulet from Quan Chi? And if Shao Kahn truly had it, why didn't he use it to enter Earthrealm? Not only does Shinnok's amulet grant its wielder to be able to transport through different realms undetected by the Elder Gods, it also increases its wielder's power. Since Shao Kahn's power is said to rival that of a god's, imagine how powerful he would be if he truly did have Shinnok's amulet. There's no way Liu Kang or Kung Lao could've beaten him.
And what's with that stupid line in which some unknown person says something like "The Elder Gods will protect you." Since when have they done that? WHEN?? It doesn't make sense at all.
Raiden losing his powers in Outworld is something taken from the movies and shows yet Shaun Himmerick, who doesn't know the story, said that they wanted to stay true to the MK story, which in fact they didn't. If Raiden truly does lose his powers in Outworld, what about MKD's intro and his appearance in MKA's Konquest??
Kitana being under a spell was a silly and stupid excuse to have her as a boss fight. Either Kitana has been under a spell the whole time (10,000+ years), which completely rapes her backstory, or she was put under a spell sometime before the boss fight with her in MKSM, which doesn't really do anything positive for her story.
The way Shang Tsung got his youth restored fucks up the basic storyline for MK2. It was Shang Tsung who was faced with a sentence of execution for his failure, but being the cunning person he is, he suggested a solution so that his life would be spared. Shao Kahn granting him his youth is a key part of Shang Tsung's story and for him to get it in the way he did in MKSM cheapens it.
Sub-Zero mentions that his allies are hunting him down yet that doesn't happen until MK3. He says that he's trying to look for his brother, which contradicts his MK2 story.
Sub-Zero comes across Noob Saibot in the Netherrealm and believes that Noob is his brother. This contradicts the fact that Noob had not seen his brother since before he became a wraith.
Then there's Scorpion, whose story and personality has been raped to death. He was a stupid, trouble-making jerk who got his ass kicked yet again. The same problem also occurs in MKA. What happened to the Scorpion that wanted to find Sub-Zero and finish the job, only to discover that this Sub-Zero is not the same one he killed but a more merciful and compassionate warrior, one that he vowed to protect? Oh that's right. Scorpion has assumed for many years that Sub-Zero killed his family and clan, something that Quan Chi framed the older Sub-Zero for.
Overall, MKSM's story was a failure on many levels. If it truly is canon, MK's story is fucked. It's just that horrible.
Yes, we were told to suspend disbelief in regards to the deaths of various characters in MKSM. However, there are still three main problems with this. The first problem is with Jade's death, which there's a following scene that involves Kitana scolding Liu Kang/Kung Lao. Is that part supposed to be non-canon as well? Then there's Mileena not being killed. Sure, some might say that it happened sometime after Mileena captures Kitana, but still, there's no real reference in MKSM itself. The other problem lies within the belief that it'd be less fun for the bosses to run away. It doesn't really have to be like that.
The outfit stuff is kind of a nitpicky thing along with things like Johnny Cage having blond hair in the intro and ending instead of brown hair.
There is a big contradiction with Kung Lao's personality. He's supposed to be the reluctant hero, someone who didn't want to fall into the same trap as his ancestor. However, in MKSM, Kung Lao is a selfish, jealous asshole who desires to become the Mortal Kombat champion thus his little rivalry with Liu Kang. Basically, Kung Lao has become what XiahouDun84 calls one of the most cliched archetypes, the hothead.
The Johnny Cage/Goro thing was silly and especially with the way Goro died was extremely embarassing for him. Kind of makes someone wonder why the Original Kung Lao also didn't try to go for Goro's "family jewels". Goro exiled himself and was thought to have been killed yet Mileena, Kitana, and most likely others like Shao Kahn, know of Goro's whereabouts. That completely contradicts his story in MK4.
The whole Shao Kahn/Quan Chi thing was a giant mess. First off, it was Liu Kang who fought and defeated Shao Kahn, not a combination of Liu Kang and Kung Lao.
Quan Chi appeared in MKSM's ending in his MKDA/MKA look, including tattoos, which doesn't make sense at all, unless there's some kind of time travel story involved that'll be covered in Quan Chi's MKA bio, which would be ridiculous.
How could Shao Kahn have obtained Shinnok's amulet from Quan Chi? And if Shao Kahn truly had it, why didn't he use it to enter Earthrealm? Not only does Shinnok's amulet grant its wielder to be able to transport through different realms undetected by the Elder Gods, it also increases its wielder's power. Since Shao Kahn's power is said to rival that of a god's, imagine how powerful he would be if he truly did have Shinnok's amulet. There's no way Liu Kang or Kung Lao could've beaten him.
And what's with that stupid line in which some unknown person says something like "The Elder Gods will protect you." Since when have they done that? WHEN?? It doesn't make sense at all.
Raiden losing his powers in Outworld is something taken from the movies and shows yet Shaun Himmerick, who doesn't know the story, said that they wanted to stay true to the MK story, which in fact they didn't. If Raiden truly does lose his powers in Outworld, what about MKD's intro and his appearance in MKA's Konquest??
Kitana being under a spell was a silly and stupid excuse to have her as a boss fight. Either Kitana has been under a spell the whole time (10,000+ years), which completely rapes her backstory, or she was put under a spell sometime before the boss fight with her in MKSM, which doesn't really do anything positive for her story.
The way Shang Tsung got his youth restored fucks up the basic storyline for MK2. It was Shang Tsung who was faced with a sentence of execution for his failure, but being the cunning person he is, he suggested a solution so that his life would be spared. Shao Kahn granting him his youth is a key part of Shang Tsung's story and for him to get it in the way he did in MKSM cheapens it.
Sub-Zero mentions that his allies are hunting him down yet that doesn't happen until MK3. He says that he's trying to look for his brother, which contradicts his MK2 story.
Sub-Zero comes across Noob Saibot in the Netherrealm and believes that Noob is his brother. This contradicts the fact that Noob had not seen his brother since before he became a wraith.
Then there's Scorpion, whose story and personality has been raped to death. He was a stupid, trouble-making jerk who got his ass kicked yet again. The same problem also occurs in MKA. What happened to the Scorpion that wanted to find Sub-Zero and finish the job, only to discover that this Sub-Zero is not the same one he killed but a more merciful and compassionate warrior, one that he vowed to protect? Oh that's right. Scorpion has assumed for many years that Sub-Zero killed his family and clan, something that Quan Chi framed the older Sub-Zero for.
Overall, MKSM's story was a failure on many levels. If it truly is canon, MK's story is fucked. It's just that horrible.
The other problem lies within the belief that it'd be less fun for the bosses to run away. It doesn't really have to be like that.
It's a common literary device to prolong the conflict between the protagonist and the antagonist. What fun is it if each villain dies after the first encounter? How about Wesker from the Resident Evil games? That guy's still messing with everyone after all these years. Revolver Ocelot from Metal Gear Solid, anyone? Another great villain and he's run away from many fights with Solid Snake. Yet somehow, he's thought of as one of the best villains ever. 
About Me
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To subzero961:
Yes, we were told to suspend disbelief in regards to the deaths of various characters in MKSM. However, there are still three main problems with this. The first problem is with Jade's death, which there's a following scene that involves Kitana scolding Liu Kang/Kung Lao. Is that part supposed to be non-canon as well? Then there's Mileena not being killed. Sure, some might say that it happened sometime after Mileena captures Kitana, but still, there's no real reference in MKSM itself. The other problem lies within the belief that it'd be less fun for the bosses to run away. It doesn't really have to be like that.
Haha, long post, this is going to be fun. Anyways in short yes I think even Jade's death is not canon. Yeah anything that makes mention of the characters death I think should be considered non canon. Hell even after you killed Reptile, Raiden appears and says "you killed Reptile, this is good" or something to that affect. It really doesnt mess up the story on a whole, so yeah I still think its non canon. The storyline can still work out fine without it, Kitana would still want to stop Mileena from telling Kahn that Kitana is no longer under the spell. Well the way I see it there can only be 3 outcomes to a fight, you kill them, they run away, or they kill you. I dont really see what else they could do. Besides lets not forget that first and foremost that this is a Mortal Kombat video game, gamers expect to be able to perform fatalities on all the characters.
The outfit stuff is kind of a nitpicky thing along with things like Johnny Cage having blond hair in the intro and ending instead of brown hair.
Agreed.
There is a big contradiction with Kung Lao's personality. He's supposed to be the reluctant hero, someone who didn't want to fall into the same trap as his ancestor. However, in MKSM, Kung Lao is a selfish, jealous asshole who desires to become the Mortal Kombat champion thus his little rivalry with Liu Kang. Basically, Kung Lao has become what XiahouDun84 calls one of the most cliched archetypes, the hothead.
I think we will have to disagree here, I have read all of Kung Lao's bios and the first time it mentions him turning to a life of peace is in his MK Gold bio. Now true the MK comic book sort of makes him out to be a peaceful monk that rejects violence, but the way I see it is that the MK2 comic book is retconned anyways which leaves his character up to be rewritten.
The Johnny Cage/Goro thing was silly and especially with the way Goro died was extremely embarassing for him. Kind of makes someone wonder why the Original Kung Lao also didn't try to go for Goro's "family jewels". Goro exiled himself and was thought to have been killed yet Mileena, Kitana, and most likely others like Shao Kahn, know of Goro's whereabouts. That completely contradicts his story in MK4.
Well lets not forget, Liu Kang did do most of the work and pretty much stunned Goro, Johnny Cage just came in and stole the thunder and finished Goro off. Or maybe he was thought dead this time after Johnny Cage finished off Goro? That would still validate his MK4 story.
The whole Shao Kahn/Quan Chi thing was a giant mess. First off, it was Liu Kang who fought and defeated Shao Kahn, not a combination of Liu Kang and Kung Lao.
Technically we never got anything to who battled Kahn in MK2. The only clue we got was Liu Kang's tomb description that says he had 4 medallions to commerorate his 4 Mortal Kombat victories. If you go by the MKSM story that both Liu Kang and Kung Lao battled Kahn it wouldnt make Liu Kang's tomb description a lie since he technically did still win.
Quan Chi appeared in MKSM's ending in his MKDA/MKA look, including tattoos, which doesn't make sense at all, unless there's some kind of time travel story involved that'll be covered in Quan Chi's MKA bio, which would be ridiculous.
I would put Quan Chi's tattoos in the nitpicking category. Its just his costume pretty much. Yeah we all know that he didnt get the tattoos till MKDA, but Im not one to think what characters wearing in the FMVs or cutscenes have any relevance to the story. Hell in the MK Armageddon intro Reptile is in his lizard form despite that his canon apperance should be he human form as we saw in konquest mode. Maybe its the other way around, I dont know, but they both cant be right, so my opinion is that costumes arent so important.
How could Shao Kahn have obtained Shinnok's amulet from Quan Chi? And if Shao Kahn truly had it, why didn't he use it to enter Earthrealm? Not only does Shinnok's amulet grant its wielder to be able to transport through different realms undetected by the Elder Gods, it also increases its wielder's power. Since Shao Kahn's power is said to rival that of a god's, imagine how powerful he would be if he truly did have Shinnok's amulet. There's no way Liu Kang or Kung Lao could've beaten him.
The amulet thing doesnt make sense in the way we know the story now, I will admit that. But in the Fight Night for MKSM they said that that may be cleared up in a future game, and that its possible that it isnt even the same amulet. Like I said in my other post, there is 2 years between MKM and MK1. Its quite possible for Kahn to get his hands on the amulet within that time period. And even if it doesnt get explained, we could easily ignore it.
And what's with that stupid line in which some unknown person says something like "The Elder Gods will protect you." Since when have they done that? WHEN?? It doesn't make sense at all.
Agreed. I ignore it, sense it seems like they want us to believe more that the Elder Gods dont directly interfere in the affairs of the realms.
Raiden losing his powers in Outworld is something taken from the movies and shows yet Shaun Himmerick, who doesn't know the story, said that they wanted to stay true to the MK story, which in fact they didn't. If Raiden truly does lose his powers in Outworld, what about MKD's intro and his appearance in MKA's Konquest??
Ok this is a little tricky to explain. First of all we have to remember throughout the game when you think your talking to Raiden you are in fact talking to Shang Tsung impersinating Raiden. Second Shang Tsung actually tells Liu Kang and Kung Lao "I know how Shang Tsung thinks. I will not have as much power in Outworld. But here I have the power to make the way safe. It appears that if that is accurate then Raiden does have some power in Outworld just not as much. I cant find anywhere else that says that he has no powers in Outworld.
Kitana being under a spell was a silly and stupid excuse to have her as a boss fight. Either Kitana has been under a spell the whole time (10,000+ years), which completely rapes her backstory, or she was put under a spell sometime before the boss fight with her in MKSM, which doesn't really do anything positive for her story.
Ok first you will have to explain how being put under a spell for 10,000+ years rapes her backstory. The way I understand her backstory is that Kahn invaded her realm, killed her father and drove her mother to kill herself. It seems like it would make sense for Kahn to put a spell on her to keep her loyalty, I mean who wouldnt try to plot to overthrow Kahn if he killed your parents? Her MK2 bio says she works as an assassin for Kahn, which she still could do under a spell. Hell it would even make sense if she was recently put under a spell, lets say she was too young to remember Kahn overtaking her realm and she later found out about her true past, it would make sense for Kahn to put a spell on her to once again keep her loyalty.
The way Shang Tsung got his youth restored fucks up the basic storyline for MK2. It was Shang Tsung who was faced with a sentence of execution for his failure, but being the cunning person he is, he suggested a solution so that his life would be spared. Shao Kahn granting him his youth is a key part of Shang Tsung's story and for him to get it in the way he did in MKSM cheapens it.
Like I said MKSM retcons the MK2 comic book. Its retelling the same events in a different way. In the comic book Kahn grants Shang Tsung his youth so he could create a portal to challenge the Earth warriors in the Outworld tournament. It doesnt really matter how Shang Tsung regained his youth, he still lured the Earth warriors to Outworld and thats really all that matters. Whether it cheapens the story or not is a matter of opinion.
Sub-Zero mentions that his allies are hunting him down yet that doesn't happen until MK3. He says that he's trying to look for his brother, which contradicts his MK2 story.
I agree about his allies hunting down is out of context, we can easily ignore that since that doesnt really affect anything else in the story. But I dont think him looking for his brother contridicts his MK2 story. His MK2 bio says he came back to assassinate Shang Tsung. Which very well could be true, but who says he didnt find information that his brother may still be alive? His ending says he learned of Scorpion's foul vendetta against his brother, seems like MKSM would support his ending. Besides we also have to take into context his MK2 bio, it read like it was talking about the older Sub-Zero. And it says "It is believed he traveled into the Outworld to again attempt to assassinate Shang Tsung." It reads from an outsiders view that we really dont know what Sub-Zero was up to. Just however you want to read into his bio, I side with the first explanation I gave.
Sub-Zero comes across Noob Saibot in the Netherrealm and believes that Noob is his brother. This contradicts the fact that Noob had not seen his brother since before he became a wraith.
Ending stories arent always true. Yes its true that Sub-Zero became Noob Saibot, but its not true that they killed Sub-Zero. We have a true and false statement within the same ending, therefore it is feasible that the quote of Sub-Zero had not seen his brother since before he became a wraith may also be a false statement.
Then there's Scorpion, whose story and personality has been raped to death. He was a stupid, trouble-making jerk who got his ass kicked yet again. The same problem also occurs in MKA. What happened to the Scorpion that wanted to find Sub-Zero and finish the job, only to discover that this Sub-Zero is not the same one he killed but a more merciful and compassionate warrior, one that he vowed to protect? Oh that's right. Scorpion has assumed for many years that Sub-Zero killed his family and clan, something that Quan Chi framed the older Sub-Zero for.
I find that he never became the protector of Sub-Zero. Those pieces of information were only found in his MK2 and MK3 endings. Like I said in the previous point, not all endings contain true statements. And I think it makes more sense that Scorpion didnt stop hunting Sub-Zero until he finds out the truth that Quan Chi killed his family and clan.
Overall, MKSM's story was a failure on many levels. If it truly is canon, MK's story is fucked. It's just that horrible.
We will have to disagree on this point. But I dont think the story is fucked, all it did was retcon the MK2 comic book and a few MK2 bios. But the story still holds up to the whole series. Sure you have to ignore very few cutscenes.
Yes, we were told to suspend disbelief in regards to the deaths of various characters in MKSM. However, there are still three main problems with this. The first problem is with Jade's death, which there's a following scene that involves Kitana scolding Liu Kang/Kung Lao. Is that part supposed to be non-canon as well? Then there's Mileena not being killed. Sure, some might say that it happened sometime after Mileena captures Kitana, but still, there's no real reference in MKSM itself. The other problem lies within the belief that it'd be less fun for the bosses to run away. It doesn't really have to be like that.
Haha, long post, this is going to be fun. Anyways in short yes I think even Jade's death is not canon. Yeah anything that makes mention of the characters death I think should be considered non canon. Hell even after you killed Reptile, Raiden appears and says "you killed Reptile, this is good" or something to that affect. It really doesnt mess up the story on a whole, so yeah I still think its non canon. The storyline can still work out fine without it, Kitana would still want to stop Mileena from telling Kahn that Kitana is no longer under the spell. Well the way I see it there can only be 3 outcomes to a fight, you kill them, they run away, or they kill you. I dont really see what else they could do. Besides lets not forget that first and foremost that this is a Mortal Kombat video game, gamers expect to be able to perform fatalities on all the characters.
The outfit stuff is kind of a nitpicky thing along with things like Johnny Cage having blond hair in the intro and ending instead of brown hair.
Agreed.
There is a big contradiction with Kung Lao's personality. He's supposed to be the reluctant hero, someone who didn't want to fall into the same trap as his ancestor. However, in MKSM, Kung Lao is a selfish, jealous asshole who desires to become the Mortal Kombat champion thus his little rivalry with Liu Kang. Basically, Kung Lao has become what XiahouDun84 calls one of the most cliched archetypes, the hothead.
I think we will have to disagree here, I have read all of Kung Lao's bios and the first time it mentions him turning to a life of peace is in his MK Gold bio. Now true the MK comic book sort of makes him out to be a peaceful monk that rejects violence, but the way I see it is that the MK2 comic book is retconned anyways which leaves his character up to be rewritten.
The Johnny Cage/Goro thing was silly and especially with the way Goro died was extremely embarassing for him. Kind of makes someone wonder why the Original Kung Lao also didn't try to go for Goro's "family jewels". Goro exiled himself and was thought to have been killed yet Mileena, Kitana, and most likely others like Shao Kahn, know of Goro's whereabouts. That completely contradicts his story in MK4.
Well lets not forget, Liu Kang did do most of the work and pretty much stunned Goro, Johnny Cage just came in and stole the thunder and finished Goro off. Or maybe he was thought dead this time after Johnny Cage finished off Goro? That would still validate his MK4 story.
The whole Shao Kahn/Quan Chi thing was a giant mess. First off, it was Liu Kang who fought and defeated Shao Kahn, not a combination of Liu Kang and Kung Lao.
Technically we never got anything to who battled Kahn in MK2. The only clue we got was Liu Kang's tomb description that says he had 4 medallions to commerorate his 4 Mortal Kombat victories. If you go by the MKSM story that both Liu Kang and Kung Lao battled Kahn it wouldnt make Liu Kang's tomb description a lie since he technically did still win.
Quan Chi appeared in MKSM's ending in his MKDA/MKA look, including tattoos, which doesn't make sense at all, unless there's some kind of time travel story involved that'll be covered in Quan Chi's MKA bio, which would be ridiculous.
I would put Quan Chi's tattoos in the nitpicking category. Its just his costume pretty much. Yeah we all know that he didnt get the tattoos till MKDA, but Im not one to think what characters wearing in the FMVs or cutscenes have any relevance to the story. Hell in the MK Armageddon intro Reptile is in his lizard form despite that his canon apperance should be he human form as we saw in konquest mode. Maybe its the other way around, I dont know, but they both cant be right, so my opinion is that costumes arent so important.
How could Shao Kahn have obtained Shinnok's amulet from Quan Chi? And if Shao Kahn truly had it, why didn't he use it to enter Earthrealm? Not only does Shinnok's amulet grant its wielder to be able to transport through different realms undetected by the Elder Gods, it also increases its wielder's power. Since Shao Kahn's power is said to rival that of a god's, imagine how powerful he would be if he truly did have Shinnok's amulet. There's no way Liu Kang or Kung Lao could've beaten him.
The amulet thing doesnt make sense in the way we know the story now, I will admit that. But in the Fight Night for MKSM they said that that may be cleared up in a future game, and that its possible that it isnt even the same amulet. Like I said in my other post, there is 2 years between MKM and MK1. Its quite possible for Kahn to get his hands on the amulet within that time period. And even if it doesnt get explained, we could easily ignore it.
And what's with that stupid line in which some unknown person says something like "The Elder Gods will protect you." Since when have they done that? WHEN?? It doesn't make sense at all.
Agreed. I ignore it, sense it seems like they want us to believe more that the Elder Gods dont directly interfere in the affairs of the realms.
Raiden losing his powers in Outworld is something taken from the movies and shows yet Shaun Himmerick, who doesn't know the story, said that they wanted to stay true to the MK story, which in fact they didn't. If Raiden truly does lose his powers in Outworld, what about MKD's intro and his appearance in MKA's Konquest??
Ok this is a little tricky to explain. First of all we have to remember throughout the game when you think your talking to Raiden you are in fact talking to Shang Tsung impersinating Raiden. Second Shang Tsung actually tells Liu Kang and Kung Lao "I know how Shang Tsung thinks. I will not have as much power in Outworld. But here I have the power to make the way safe. It appears that if that is accurate then Raiden does have some power in Outworld just not as much. I cant find anywhere else that says that he has no powers in Outworld.
Kitana being under a spell was a silly and stupid excuse to have her as a boss fight. Either Kitana has been under a spell the whole time (10,000+ years), which completely rapes her backstory, or she was put under a spell sometime before the boss fight with her in MKSM, which doesn't really do anything positive for her story.
Ok first you will have to explain how being put under a spell for 10,000+ years rapes her backstory. The way I understand her backstory is that Kahn invaded her realm, killed her father and drove her mother to kill herself. It seems like it would make sense for Kahn to put a spell on her to keep her loyalty, I mean who wouldnt try to plot to overthrow Kahn if he killed your parents? Her MK2 bio says she works as an assassin for Kahn, which she still could do under a spell. Hell it would even make sense if she was recently put under a spell, lets say she was too young to remember Kahn overtaking her realm and she later found out about her true past, it would make sense for Kahn to put a spell on her to once again keep her loyalty.
The way Shang Tsung got his youth restored fucks up the basic storyline for MK2. It was Shang Tsung who was faced with a sentence of execution for his failure, but being the cunning person he is, he suggested a solution so that his life would be spared. Shao Kahn granting him his youth is a key part of Shang Tsung's story and for him to get it in the way he did in MKSM cheapens it.
Like I said MKSM retcons the MK2 comic book. Its retelling the same events in a different way. In the comic book Kahn grants Shang Tsung his youth so he could create a portal to challenge the Earth warriors in the Outworld tournament. It doesnt really matter how Shang Tsung regained his youth, he still lured the Earth warriors to Outworld and thats really all that matters. Whether it cheapens the story or not is a matter of opinion.
Sub-Zero mentions that his allies are hunting him down yet that doesn't happen until MK3. He says that he's trying to look for his brother, which contradicts his MK2 story.
I agree about his allies hunting down is out of context, we can easily ignore that since that doesnt really affect anything else in the story. But I dont think him looking for his brother contridicts his MK2 story. His MK2 bio says he came back to assassinate Shang Tsung. Which very well could be true, but who says he didnt find information that his brother may still be alive? His ending says he learned of Scorpion's foul vendetta against his brother, seems like MKSM would support his ending. Besides we also have to take into context his MK2 bio, it read like it was talking about the older Sub-Zero. And it says "It is believed he traveled into the Outworld to again attempt to assassinate Shang Tsung." It reads from an outsiders view that we really dont know what Sub-Zero was up to. Just however you want to read into his bio, I side with the first explanation I gave.
Sub-Zero comes across Noob Saibot in the Netherrealm and believes that Noob is his brother. This contradicts the fact that Noob had not seen his brother since before he became a wraith.
Ending stories arent always true. Yes its true that Sub-Zero became Noob Saibot, but its not true that they killed Sub-Zero. We have a true and false statement within the same ending, therefore it is feasible that the quote of Sub-Zero had not seen his brother since before he became a wraith may also be a false statement.
Then there's Scorpion, whose story and personality has been raped to death. He was a stupid, trouble-making jerk who got his ass kicked yet again. The same problem also occurs in MKA. What happened to the Scorpion that wanted to find Sub-Zero and finish the job, only to discover that this Sub-Zero is not the same one he killed but a more merciful and compassionate warrior, one that he vowed to protect? Oh that's right. Scorpion has assumed for many years that Sub-Zero killed his family and clan, something that Quan Chi framed the older Sub-Zero for.
I find that he never became the protector of Sub-Zero. Those pieces of information were only found in his MK2 and MK3 endings. Like I said in the previous point, not all endings contain true statements. And I think it makes more sense that Scorpion didnt stop hunting Sub-Zero until he finds out the truth that Quan Chi killed his family and clan.
Overall, MKSM's story was a failure on many levels. If it truly is canon, MK's story is fucked. It's just that horrible.
We will have to disagree on this point. But I dont think the story is fucked, all it did was retcon the MK2 comic book and a few MK2 bios. But the story still holds up to the whole series. Sure you have to ignore very few cutscenes.
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Like I've been saying all along, it's not so much a question of "Can things be explained?" it's a question of "Is it worth it?"
Yeah, all the plot-holes and contradictions can be explained away and fit into the storyline. But how is any of it an improvement? Like I've said, even if you look at Shaolin Monks as a stand-alone story and ignore everything else about the MK storyline...it's not a good story. It's "plot" runs on shitty logic, it's heroes are jackasses, the villain's master plan is retarded, and the dialogue is God-awful.
"Haha, long post, this is going to be fun. Anyways in short yes I think even Jade's death is not canon. Yeah anything that makes mention of the characters death I think should be considered non canon. Hell even after you killed Reptile, Raiden appears and says "you killed Reptile, this is good" or something to that affect. It really doesnt mess up the story on a whole, so yeah I still think its non canon. The storyline can still work out fine without it, Kitana would still want to stop Mileena from telling Kahn that Kitana is no longer under the spell. Well the way I see it there can only be 3 outcomes to a fight, you kill them, they run away, or they kill you. I dont really see what else they could do. Besides lets not forget that first and foremost that this is a Mortal Kombat video game, gamers expect to be able to perform fatalities on all the characters."
Here's the problem: Shang Tsung's master plan depended on Liu Kang and Kung Lao killing their opponents. So if no one really died, then....what?
"I think we will have to disagree here, I have read all of Kung Lao's bios and the first time it mentions him turning to a life of peace is in his MK Gold bio. Now true the MK comic book sort of makes him out to be a peaceful monk that rejects violence, but the way I see it is that the MK2 comic book is retconned anyways which leaves his character up to be rewritten."
Once again: it's not so much a question of can it be explained away...it's a question of whether this is an improvement? Obviously, since so many people were complaining about it, Kung Lao's original "reluctant warrior" persona was well-liked. It wouldn't irk at all you if a crucial trait of a character you liked was retconned out of existence? I mean this isn't just a simple little retcon, this is completely altering a character's motivation and driving personality.
It's shit like this that makes one wonder why bother paying attention to the story at all. I liked Kung Lao because he didn't want to be Champion....oh shit, that Kung Lao no longer exists.
"The amulet thing doesnt make sense in the way we know the story now, I will admit that. But in the Fight Night for MKSM they said that that may be cleared up in a future game, and that its possible that it isnt even the same amulet. Like I said in my other post, there is 2 years between MKM and MK1. Its quite possible for Kahn to get his hands on the amulet within that time period. And even if it doesnt get explained, we could easily ignore it."
But if the deaths we just for show and non-canon, then Quan Chi actually didn't get anything from Shao Kahn. And like I said before, the key to Quan Chi's master plan was he had the Amulet the whole time and no one knew about it. Any explanation cheapens him and his impact.
"Ok first you will have to explain how being put under a spell for 10,000+ years rapes her backstory. The way I understand her backstory is that Kahn invaded her realm, killed her father and drove her mother to kill herself. It seems like it would make sense for Kahn to put a spell on her to keep her loyalty, I mean who wouldnt try to plot to overthrow Kahn if he killed your parents? Her MK2 bio says she works as an assassin for Kahn, which she still could do under a spell."
Did you not read my post?
BTW, Kitana was too young to remember anything about Kahn's invasion. Shao Kahn conquered Edenian 10,000 years ago...Kitana's 10,000 years old...what purpose does putting a spell on an infant serve? Why not....just raise her?
"Hell it would even make sense if she was recently put under a spell, lets say she was too young to remember Kahn overtaking her realm and she later found out about her true past, it would make sense for Kahn to put a spell on her to once again keep her loyalty."
And again, my post:
This isn't so much about things not making sense...it's downgrading a well-liked character's importance in the story.
"I find that he never became the protector of Sub-Zero. Those pieces of information were only found in his MK2 and MK3 endings. Like I said in the previous point, not all endings contain true statements. And I think it makes more sense that Scorpion didnt stop hunting Sub-Zero until he finds out the truth that Quan Chi killed his family and clan."
Like I said with Kung Lao...if one likes a character for a paticular reason, one tends to get annoyed when that paticular trait is retconned out of existence. Scorpion was my favorite character because when he learned it was a different Sub-Zero, he actually responded to the situation and did something that developed him as a character.
What's worse about all this is they could've made a game about MKII without changing things around.
Imagine if they developed a conflict between Liu Kang and Kung Lao over the fact Kung Lao abandoned the Shaolin when, as Liu himself says in the MKII comic, "when they needed him most." Wouldn't that be more interesting than Kung Lao doing the typical arrogant hothead routine? Why that would actually maybe better flesh out Liu Kang and Kung Lao and perhaps make them more interesting and likable characters.
What if they had it you had to fight Kitana at some point even though she was helping you in the story. Like, just off the top of my head, you have to fight her for a certain amount of time without killing her? The idea being, you have to help her keep up her facade so she doesn't get given away. True to the story and actually offering a potentially interesting gameplay challenge.
What if, while this tournament that was a distraction for Sindel's resurrection, Shang Tsung was conducting some scheme to use Liu Kang & Kung Lao in overthrowing Shao Kahn? Something that would require just a little more thought? Or hell, what if for a mission, you have to find out about the plan with Sindel and maybe even try to stop it?
But no. They took all that potential and turned it into...well, what we got. A "plot" that consisted of a series of contrived boss fights with buffoon characters.
Then people say "It's just a video game. The story doesn't matter." Okay fine. I don't mind that they put zero effort into the story. Just don't call it canon.
subzero961, I'm not asking you to explain how MK:SM's story can work...I'm asking why you feel it's worth defending? I expained everything that bothered me, why it bothered me, and why I felt the alternative was better....but I'm curious, why do you think we should accept Shaolin Monks as canon? Just would like to know why you think this is it a better alternative to what we already had in MKII?
Going back to the "It's no different than in comics. They retcon things all the time." True...but you know what else they have in comics? Elseworlds. And that's how I choose to look at Shaolin Monks.
Yeah, all the plot-holes and contradictions can be explained away and fit into the storyline. But how is any of it an improvement? Like I've said, even if you look at Shaolin Monks as a stand-alone story and ignore everything else about the MK storyline...it's not a good story. It's "plot" runs on shitty logic, it's heroes are jackasses, the villain's master plan is retarded, and the dialogue is God-awful.
"Haha, long post, this is going to be fun. Anyways in short yes I think even Jade's death is not canon. Yeah anything that makes mention of the characters death I think should be considered non canon. Hell even after you killed Reptile, Raiden appears and says "you killed Reptile, this is good" or something to that affect. It really doesnt mess up the story on a whole, so yeah I still think its non canon. The storyline can still work out fine without it, Kitana would still want to stop Mileena from telling Kahn that Kitana is no longer under the spell. Well the way I see it there can only be 3 outcomes to a fight, you kill them, they run away, or they kill you. I dont really see what else they could do. Besides lets not forget that first and foremost that this is a Mortal Kombat video game, gamers expect to be able to perform fatalities on all the characters."
Here's the problem: Shang Tsung's master plan depended on Liu Kang and Kung Lao killing their opponents. So if no one really died, then....what?
"I think we will have to disagree here, I have read all of Kung Lao's bios and the first time it mentions him turning to a life of peace is in his MK Gold bio. Now true the MK comic book sort of makes him out to be a peaceful monk that rejects violence, but the way I see it is that the MK2 comic book is retconned anyways which leaves his character up to be rewritten."
Once again: it's not so much a question of can it be explained away...it's a question of whether this is an improvement? Obviously, since so many people were complaining about it, Kung Lao's original "reluctant warrior" persona was well-liked. It wouldn't irk at all you if a crucial trait of a character you liked was retconned out of existence? I mean this isn't just a simple little retcon, this is completely altering a character's motivation and driving personality.
It's shit like this that makes one wonder why bother paying attention to the story at all. I liked Kung Lao because he didn't want to be Champion....oh shit, that Kung Lao no longer exists.
"The amulet thing doesnt make sense in the way we know the story now, I will admit that. But in the Fight Night for MKSM they said that that may be cleared up in a future game, and that its possible that it isnt even the same amulet. Like I said in my other post, there is 2 years between MKM and MK1. Its quite possible for Kahn to get his hands on the amulet within that time period. And even if it doesnt get explained, we could easily ignore it."
But if the deaths we just for show and non-canon, then Quan Chi actually didn't get anything from Shao Kahn. And like I said before, the key to Quan Chi's master plan was he had the Amulet the whole time and no one knew about it. Any explanation cheapens him and his impact.
"Ok first you will have to explain how being put under a spell for 10,000+ years rapes her backstory. The way I understand her backstory is that Kahn invaded her realm, killed her father and drove her mother to kill herself. It seems like it would make sense for Kahn to put a spell on her to keep her loyalty, I mean who wouldnt try to plot to overthrow Kahn if he killed your parents? Her MK2 bio says she works as an assassin for Kahn, which she still could do under a spell."
Did you not read my post?
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
What makes Kitana's story worth a damn, is that she was raised to be an evil, cold-blooded killer. However upon learning the truth about her past, she changed herself and became a good person. That's what makes her interesting and a developed character. What a spell does is eliminate that developement in exchange for cheap grade-school logic. It shallows Kitana's character and her story. "No, I was never evil...it was allllll just a spell."
What makes Kitana's story worth a damn, is that she was raised to be an evil, cold-blooded killer. However upon learning the truth about her past, she changed herself and became a good person. That's what makes her interesting and a developed character. What a spell does is eliminate that developement in exchange for cheap grade-school logic. It shallows Kitana's character and her story. "No, I was never evil...it was allllll just a spell."
BTW, Kitana was too young to remember anything about Kahn's invasion. Shao Kahn conquered Edenian 10,000 years ago...Kitana's 10,000 years old...what purpose does putting a spell on an infant serve? Why not....just raise her?
"Hell it would even make sense if she was recently put under a spell, lets say she was too young to remember Kahn overtaking her realm and she later found out about her true past, it would make sense for Kahn to put a spell on her to once again keep her loyalty."
And again, my post:
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
In the original story, Kitana feigns loyalty to Kahn while secretly helping Earth's warriors, then later kills Mileena and by MK3, escapes Outworld on her own to seek out Earth's heroes...establishing her as a strong, independent, and effective character, capable of walking this tightrope between both sides, fight off her deranged clone, and eventually evade the evil empire out to kill her. However in MK:SM, Kitana is shown having to be rescued from her evil spell by Liu Kang and later needs to be rescued yet again because she gets taken prisoner. Basically, they turned her into a total victim.
In the original story, Kitana feigns loyalty to Kahn while secretly helping Earth's warriors, then later kills Mileena and by MK3, escapes Outworld on her own to seek out Earth's heroes...establishing her as a strong, independent, and effective character, capable of walking this tightrope between both sides, fight off her deranged clone, and eventually evade the evil empire out to kill her. However in MK:SM, Kitana is shown having to be rescued from her evil spell by Liu Kang and later needs to be rescued yet again because she gets taken prisoner. Basically, they turned her into a total victim.
This isn't so much about things not making sense...it's downgrading a well-liked character's importance in the story.
"I find that he never became the protector of Sub-Zero. Those pieces of information were only found in his MK2 and MK3 endings. Like I said in the previous point, not all endings contain true statements. And I think it makes more sense that Scorpion didnt stop hunting Sub-Zero until he finds out the truth that Quan Chi killed his family and clan."
Like I said with Kung Lao...if one likes a character for a paticular reason, one tends to get annoyed when that paticular trait is retconned out of existence. Scorpion was my favorite character because when he learned it was a different Sub-Zero, he actually responded to the situation and did something that developed him as a character.
What's worse about all this is they could've made a game about MKII without changing things around.
Imagine if they developed a conflict between Liu Kang and Kung Lao over the fact Kung Lao abandoned the Shaolin when, as Liu himself says in the MKII comic, "when they needed him most." Wouldn't that be more interesting than Kung Lao doing the typical arrogant hothead routine? Why that would actually maybe better flesh out Liu Kang and Kung Lao and perhaps make them more interesting and likable characters.
What if they had it you had to fight Kitana at some point even though she was helping you in the story. Like, just off the top of my head, you have to fight her for a certain amount of time without killing her? The idea being, you have to help her keep up her facade so she doesn't get given away. True to the story and actually offering a potentially interesting gameplay challenge.
What if, while this tournament that was a distraction for Sindel's resurrection, Shang Tsung was conducting some scheme to use Liu Kang & Kung Lao in overthrowing Shao Kahn? Something that would require just a little more thought? Or hell, what if for a mission, you have to find out about the plan with Sindel and maybe even try to stop it?
But no. They took all that potential and turned it into...well, what we got. A "plot" that consisted of a series of contrived boss fights with buffoon characters.
Then people say "It's just a video game. The story doesn't matter." Okay fine. I don't mind that they put zero effort into the story. Just don't call it canon.
subzero961, I'm not asking you to explain how MK:SM's story can work...I'm asking why you feel it's worth defending? I expained everything that bothered me, why it bothered me, and why I felt the alternative was better....but I'm curious, why do you think we should accept Shaolin Monks as canon? Just would like to know why you think this is it a better alternative to what we already had in MKII?
Going back to the "It's no different than in comics. They retcon things all the time." True...but you know what else they have in comics? Elseworlds. And that's how I choose to look at Shaolin Monks.
About Me
FB: Trans4Materia Card Game I invented "Circling Vulture, Laughing Hyena"
True story, it happened to a friend of a friend of mine... EVERYBODY!
0
About Raiden having no powers in Outworld, are we forgetting the MK3 intro?
"You have been chosen to represent Earth in Mortal Kombat. Be warned. Although your souls are protected against Shao Kahn's evil; your lives are not. I cannot interfere any longer as your Earth is now ruled by the Outworld Gods.
These are the words of Raiden."
As well as the first screen from his Trilogy ending?
"When Outworld, and Earth merge, Rayden finds himself battling Shao Kahn without the assistance of the Elder Gods. The Thunder God must transform himself into a mortal in order to exist within the combined realms."
Ka-Tra
"You have been chosen to represent Earth in Mortal Kombat. Be warned. Although your souls are protected against Shao Kahn's evil; your lives are not. I cannot interfere any longer as your Earth is now ruled by the Outworld Gods.
These are the words of Raiden."
As well as the first screen from his Trilogy ending?
"When Outworld, and Earth merge, Rayden finds himself battling Shao Kahn without the assistance of the Elder Gods. The Thunder God must transform himself into a mortal in order to exist within the combined realms."
Ka-Tra
About Me
0
Like I've been saying all along, it's not so much a question of "Can things be explained?" it's a question of "Is it worth it?"
Well the topic title seems to indicate that its about why MK SM is not canon. Im offering counterpoints as to why it can be canon.
Yeah, all the plot-holes and contradictions can be explained away and fit into the storyline. But how is any of it an improvement? Like I've said, even if you look at Shaolin Monks as a stand-alone story and ignore everything else about the MK storyline...it's not a good story. It's "plot" runs on shitty logic, it's heroes are jackasses, the villain's master plan is retarded, and the dialogue is God-awful.
Im not going to argue which story is better, everyone has their own opinions about this, Im addressing the topic creators points that the game can in fact be canon to the storyline. It is impossible for me to argue against your opinion that the storyline sucks. Thats your opinion, and no matter what I say I cant be right because I cant tell you what to like in a video game.
Here's the problem: Shang Tsung's master plan depended on Liu Kang and Kung Lao killing their opponents. So if no one really died, then....what?
Yeah I thought about that too, but then I came up with an answer for that. If you make the assumption that none of the bosses deaths were canon the story can still work out because Liu Kang and Kung Lao still probably killed tons of generic Outworld warriors, like the tarkatas and demons. Their deaths could contribute to Shang Tsung's soul tombs too.
Once again: it's not so much a question of can it be explained away...it's a question of whether this is an improvement? Obviously, since so many people were complaining about it, Kung Lao's original "reluctant warrior" persona was well-liked. It wouldn't irk at all you if a crucial trait of a character you liked was retconned out of existence? I mean this isn't just a simple little retcon, this is completely altering a character's motivation and driving personality.
It's shit like this that makes one wonder why bother paying attention to the story at all. I liked Kung Lao because he didn't want to be Champion....oh shit, that Kung Lao no longer exists.
All I can say is that they cant please all the fans. I know you and probably lots of other people doesnt like the change, but then there will be others who do like the change. I personally dont really care one way or the other.
But if the deaths we just for show and non-canon, then Quan Chi actually didn't get anything from Shao Kahn. And like I said before, the key to Quan Chi's master plan was he had the Amulet the whole time and no one knew about it. Any explanation cheapens him and his impact.
Well first off I wasnt offering any concrete explanation for the ending. Im just giving examples of how it can be possible. If you want my personal interpretation of the story, I think Shao Kahn had the fake amulet. Remember the ending of MK Mythologies, Sub-Zero gave Raiden the fake amulet. Raiden could have been holding onto the amulet for safekeeping, and when he was captured by Shang Tsung, Shang Tsung may have given the fake amulet to Shao Kahn. But I digress, even if Shao Kahn is not dead, you could always just assume that Quan Chi took it from Kahn's body. Quan Chi's master plan was that he retained the original amulet and gave Shinnok a fake copy so he could have the power. Why does it matter that he had it the whole time? As long as he had it during MK4 through the end of MKDA then the story still works.
Did you not read my post?
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
What makes Kitana's story worth a damn, is that she was raised to be an evil, cold-blooded killer. However upon learning the truth about her past, she changed herself and became a good person. That's what makes her interesting and a developed character. What a spell does is eliminate that developement in exchange for cheap grade-school logic. It shallows Kitana's character and her story. "No, I was never evil...it was allllll just a spell."
Sorry I didnt read your post, my first post was directly a response to the first post and my 2nd post was a response to the post that addressed my post. It was in her ending that says that she learned of her true past, that doesnt necessarily even have to be canon to the storyline. As far as I see the endings statements can be proven true or false, I think this is obviously an inaccurate statement about her storyline. Sorry you dont like the story once again, but that has nothing to do with if the storyline is canon.
BTW, Kitana was too young to remember anything about Kahn's invasion. Shao Kahn conquered Edenian 10,000 years ago...Kitana's 10,000 years old...what purpose does putting a spell on an infant serve? Why not....just raise her?
Well find me where it says that Shao Kahn conquered Edenia 10,000 years ago. I cant find it anywhere. Its quite possible that it was a sooner date than that. The only clue I have to how old Kitana was when Kahn invaded is Sindel's ending picture which seems to depict that Kitana was a small child, not an infant. BTW, Goro won his first Mortal Kombat in Earthrealm about 500 years ago, since the tournament is held every 50 years. Now lets take the best case scenario and make the assumption that Shang Tsung almost won 10 Mortal Kombat tournaments, that would add another 500 years or so. So why would Shao Kahn take over Edenia 10,000 years ago and wait almost 9,000 years before trying to take Earthrealm?
And again, my post:
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
In the original story, Kitana feigns loyalty to Kahn while secretly helping Earth's warriors, then later kills Mileena and by MK3, escapes Outworld on her own to seek out Earth's heroes...establishing her as a strong, independent, and effective character, capable of walking this tightrope between both sides, fight off her deranged clone, and eventually evade the evil empire out to kill her. However in MK:SM, Kitana is shown having to be rescued from her evil spell by Liu Kang and later needs to be rescued yet again because she gets taken prisoner. Basically, they turned her into a total victim.
This isn't so much about things not making sense...it's downgrading a well-liked character's importance in the story.
This is her original story:
"Her beauty hides her true role as personal assassin for Shao Kahn. Seen talking to an Earth realm warrior. Her motives have come under suspicion by her twin sister Mileena. But only Kitana knows her own true intentions. "
I dont see anything about Kitana ferigning loyalty to Shao Kahn. Like I said, Im not going to argue what story is better, because everyone has their own opinions. Im arguing the point that MKSM can be canon to the storyline.
Like I said with Kung Lao...if one likes a character for a paticular reason, one tends to get annoyed when that paticular trait is retconned out of existence. Scorpion was my favorite character because when he learned it was a different Sub-Zero, he actually responded to the situation and did something that developed him as a character.
My post if about this piece of the storyline getting retconned way before MKSM. I never took anything in Scorpion's MK2 or MK3 ending to be canon. Ok lets say he did in fact become the protector in either MK2 or MK3. Why is Scorpion still after Sub-Zero in MK4? Did he not swear to become Sub-Zero's protector? That is a plothole in of itself, and it happened before MKSM even came out. Thats why I never took that story as canon in the first place.
What's worse about all this is they could've made a game about MKII without changing things around.
Imagine if they developed a conflict between Liu Kang and Kung Lao over the fact Kung Lao abandoned the Shaolin when, as Liu himself says in the MKII comic, "when they needed him most." Wouldn't that be more interesting than Kung Lao doing the typical arrogant hothead routine? Why that would actually maybe better flesh out Liu Kang and Kung Lao and perhaps make them more interesting and likable characters.
What if they had it you had to fight Kitana at some point even though she was helping you in the story. Like, just off the top of my head, you have to fight her for a certain amount of time without killing her? The idea being, you have to help her keep up her facade so she doesn't get given away. True to the story and actually offering a potentially interesting gameplay challenge.
What if, while this tournament that was a distraction for Sindel's resurrection, Shang Tsung was conducting some scheme to use Liu Kang & Kung Lao in overthrowing Shao Kahn? Something that would require just a little more thought? Or hell, what if for a mission, you have to find out about the plan with Sindel and maybe even try to stop it?
But no. They took all that potential and turned it into...well, what we got. A "plot" that consisted of a series of contrived boss fights with buffoon characters.
Once again I will not argue with your opinions.
Then people say "It's just a video game. The story doesn't matter." Okay fine. I don't mind that they put zero effort into the story. Just don't call it canon.
Well I never said that, the storyline is probably the number 1 reason I play Mortal Kombat. But I dont expect them to devote as much time to devloping the storyline as they do to make the actual game. Sure they can do great in both areas, Im not making excuses for them at all. But quality usually takes up time, some areas of the game requires more time than others. The storyline may not have been the greatest in video game history, but you can tell that the gameplay took a lot of time since it was a really sweet game to play. They simply devoted more time to make excellent gameplay.
subzero961, I'm not asking you to explain how MK:SM's story can work...I'm asking why you feel it's worth defending? I expained everything that bothered me, why it bothered me, and why I felt the alternative was better....but I'm curious, why do you think we should accept Shaolin Monks as canon? Just would like to know why you think this is it a better alternative to what we already had in MKII?
I think its worth defending because I take the position that the game in canon to the storyline. I personally agree with you that I like the MK II comic book better. But the canonization is not left up to me. Its obvious they created MKSM partially to explain more of what happened in MK2. I like some of the MKSM story and dont like some of it, but I know how to accept the storyline instead of clinging on to what I want to be the storyline. Now if in the future they come out and say that MKSM is not canon and we should go by the comic book, I will accept that too. Im going by what I think the MK team wants the MK2 storyline to be, which I think they made clear in the MKSM Fight Night.
Going back to the "It's no different than in comics. They retcon things all the time." True...but you know what else they have in comics? Elseworlds. And that's how I choose to look at Shaolin Monks.
Well we just have a differing opinion on which storyline we think is the canon one. You have your reasons and I have mine.
Well the topic title seems to indicate that its about why MK SM is not canon. Im offering counterpoints as to why it can be canon.
Yeah, all the plot-holes and contradictions can be explained away and fit into the storyline. But how is any of it an improvement? Like I've said, even if you look at Shaolin Monks as a stand-alone story and ignore everything else about the MK storyline...it's not a good story. It's "plot" runs on shitty logic, it's heroes are jackasses, the villain's master plan is retarded, and the dialogue is God-awful.
Im not going to argue which story is better, everyone has their own opinions about this, Im addressing the topic creators points that the game can in fact be canon to the storyline. It is impossible for me to argue against your opinion that the storyline sucks. Thats your opinion, and no matter what I say I cant be right because I cant tell you what to like in a video game.
Here's the problem: Shang Tsung's master plan depended on Liu Kang and Kung Lao killing their opponents. So if no one really died, then....what?
Yeah I thought about that too, but then I came up with an answer for that. If you make the assumption that none of the bosses deaths were canon the story can still work out because Liu Kang and Kung Lao still probably killed tons of generic Outworld warriors, like the tarkatas and demons. Their deaths could contribute to Shang Tsung's soul tombs too.
Once again: it's not so much a question of can it be explained away...it's a question of whether this is an improvement? Obviously, since so many people were complaining about it, Kung Lao's original "reluctant warrior" persona was well-liked. It wouldn't irk at all you if a crucial trait of a character you liked was retconned out of existence? I mean this isn't just a simple little retcon, this is completely altering a character's motivation and driving personality.
It's shit like this that makes one wonder why bother paying attention to the story at all. I liked Kung Lao because he didn't want to be Champion....oh shit, that Kung Lao no longer exists.
All I can say is that they cant please all the fans. I know you and probably lots of other people doesnt like the change, but then there will be others who do like the change. I personally dont really care one way or the other.
But if the deaths we just for show and non-canon, then Quan Chi actually didn't get anything from Shao Kahn. And like I said before, the key to Quan Chi's master plan was he had the Amulet the whole time and no one knew about it. Any explanation cheapens him and his impact.
Well first off I wasnt offering any concrete explanation for the ending. Im just giving examples of how it can be possible. If you want my personal interpretation of the story, I think Shao Kahn had the fake amulet. Remember the ending of MK Mythologies, Sub-Zero gave Raiden the fake amulet. Raiden could have been holding onto the amulet for safekeeping, and when he was captured by Shang Tsung, Shang Tsung may have given the fake amulet to Shao Kahn. But I digress, even if Shao Kahn is not dead, you could always just assume that Quan Chi took it from Kahn's body. Quan Chi's master plan was that he retained the original amulet and gave Shinnok a fake copy so he could have the power. Why does it matter that he had it the whole time? As long as he had it during MK4 through the end of MKDA then the story still works.
Did you not read my post?
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
What makes Kitana's story worth a damn, is that she was raised to be an evil, cold-blooded killer. However upon learning the truth about her past, she changed herself and became a good person. That's what makes her interesting and a developed character. What a spell does is eliminate that developement in exchange for cheap grade-school logic. It shallows Kitana's character and her story. "No, I was never evil...it was allllll just a spell."
Sorry I didnt read your post, my first post was directly a response to the first post and my 2nd post was a response to the post that addressed my post. It was in her ending that says that she learned of her true past, that doesnt necessarily even have to be canon to the storyline. As far as I see the endings statements can be proven true or false, I think this is obviously an inaccurate statement about her storyline. Sorry you dont like the story once again, but that has nothing to do with if the storyline is canon.
BTW, Kitana was too young to remember anything about Kahn's invasion. Shao Kahn conquered Edenian 10,000 years ago...Kitana's 10,000 years old...what purpose does putting a spell on an infant serve? Why not....just raise her?
Well find me where it says that Shao Kahn conquered Edenia 10,000 years ago. I cant find it anywhere. Its quite possible that it was a sooner date than that. The only clue I have to how old Kitana was when Kahn invaded is Sindel's ending picture which seems to depict that Kitana was a small child, not an infant. BTW, Goro won his first Mortal Kombat in Earthrealm about 500 years ago, since the tournament is held every 50 years. Now lets take the best case scenario and make the assumption that Shang Tsung almost won 10 Mortal Kombat tournaments, that would add another 500 years or so. So why would Shao Kahn take over Edenia 10,000 years ago and wait almost 9,000 years before trying to take Earthrealm?
And again, my post:
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
In the original story, Kitana feigns loyalty to Kahn while secretly helping Earth's warriors, then later kills Mileena and by MK3, escapes Outworld on her own to seek out Earth's heroes...establishing her as a strong, independent, and effective character, capable of walking this tightrope between both sides, fight off her deranged clone, and eventually evade the evil empire out to kill her. However in MK:SM, Kitana is shown having to be rescued from her evil spell by Liu Kang and later needs to be rescued yet again because she gets taken prisoner. Basically, they turned her into a total victim.
This isn't so much about things not making sense...it's downgrading a well-liked character's importance in the story.
This is her original story:
"Her beauty hides her true role as personal assassin for Shao Kahn. Seen talking to an Earth realm warrior. Her motives have come under suspicion by her twin sister Mileena. But only Kitana knows her own true intentions. "
I dont see anything about Kitana ferigning loyalty to Shao Kahn. Like I said, Im not going to argue what story is better, because everyone has their own opinions. Im arguing the point that MKSM can be canon to the storyline.
Like I said with Kung Lao...if one likes a character for a paticular reason, one tends to get annoyed when that paticular trait is retconned out of existence. Scorpion was my favorite character because when he learned it was a different Sub-Zero, he actually responded to the situation and did something that developed him as a character.
My post if about this piece of the storyline getting retconned way before MKSM. I never took anything in Scorpion's MK2 or MK3 ending to be canon. Ok lets say he did in fact become the protector in either MK2 or MK3. Why is Scorpion still after Sub-Zero in MK4? Did he not swear to become Sub-Zero's protector? That is a plothole in of itself, and it happened before MKSM even came out. Thats why I never took that story as canon in the first place.
What's worse about all this is they could've made a game about MKII without changing things around.
Imagine if they developed a conflict between Liu Kang and Kung Lao over the fact Kung Lao abandoned the Shaolin when, as Liu himself says in the MKII comic, "when they needed him most." Wouldn't that be more interesting than Kung Lao doing the typical arrogant hothead routine? Why that would actually maybe better flesh out Liu Kang and Kung Lao and perhaps make them more interesting and likable characters.
What if they had it you had to fight Kitana at some point even though she was helping you in the story. Like, just off the top of my head, you have to fight her for a certain amount of time without killing her? The idea being, you have to help her keep up her facade so she doesn't get given away. True to the story and actually offering a potentially interesting gameplay challenge.
What if, while this tournament that was a distraction for Sindel's resurrection, Shang Tsung was conducting some scheme to use Liu Kang & Kung Lao in overthrowing Shao Kahn? Something that would require just a little more thought? Or hell, what if for a mission, you have to find out about the plan with Sindel and maybe even try to stop it?
But no. They took all that potential and turned it into...well, what we got. A "plot" that consisted of a series of contrived boss fights with buffoon characters.
Once again I will not argue with your opinions.
Then people say "It's just a video game. The story doesn't matter." Okay fine. I don't mind that they put zero effort into the story. Just don't call it canon.
Well I never said that, the storyline is probably the number 1 reason I play Mortal Kombat. But I dont expect them to devote as much time to devloping the storyline as they do to make the actual game. Sure they can do great in both areas, Im not making excuses for them at all. But quality usually takes up time, some areas of the game requires more time than others. The storyline may not have been the greatest in video game history, but you can tell that the gameplay took a lot of time since it was a really sweet game to play. They simply devoted more time to make excellent gameplay.
subzero961, I'm not asking you to explain how MK:SM's story can work...I'm asking why you feel it's worth defending? I expained everything that bothered me, why it bothered me, and why I felt the alternative was better....but I'm curious, why do you think we should accept Shaolin Monks as canon? Just would like to know why you think this is it a better alternative to what we already had in MKII?
I think its worth defending because I take the position that the game in canon to the storyline. I personally agree with you that I like the MK II comic book better. But the canonization is not left up to me. Its obvious they created MKSM partially to explain more of what happened in MK2. I like some of the MKSM story and dont like some of it, but I know how to accept the storyline instead of clinging on to what I want to be the storyline. Now if in the future they come out and say that MKSM is not canon and we should go by the comic book, I will accept that too. Im going by what I think the MK team wants the MK2 storyline to be, which I think they made clear in the MKSM Fight Night.
Going back to the "It's no different than in comics. They retcon things all the time." True...but you know what else they have in comics? Elseworlds. And that's how I choose to look at Shaolin Monks.
Well we just have a differing opinion on which storyline we think is the canon one. You have your reasons and I have mine.
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"Well find me where it says that Shao Kahn conquered Edenia 10,000 years ago. I cant find it anywhere. Its quite possible that it was a sooner date than that."
The MK3 Storyline:
"For centuries, Earth has used Mortal Kombat to defend itself against Outworld's Emperor, Shao Kahn. But Kahn grows frustrated by failed attempts to take Earth through tournament batle. He enacts a plan which began 10,000 years ago. During that time, he had a Queen. Her name was Sindel..."
And Sindel's MK3 bio:
"Sindel once ruled Outword at Shao Kahn's side as his Queen. Now 10,000 years after her untimely death...."
If Sindel was Shao Kahn's bride 10,000 years, he must therefore have already conquered Edenia. And since Kitana is 10,000 years old, she must therefore had only just been born at the time.
"So why would Shao Kahn take over Edenia 10,000 years ago and wait almost 9,000 years before trying to take Earthrealm?"
Who says Edenia was the last realm conquered before Kahn went after Earth? They never said when he conquered Zatterra. Or the Vampire realm. And apparently there are dozens of other realms that have been conquered.
"I dont see anything about Kitana ferigning loyalty to Shao Kahn. Like I said, Im not going to argue what story is better, because everyone has their own opinions. Im arguing the point that MKSM can be canon to the storyline."
If Kitana is believed to be a personal assassin for Shao Kahn, yet already knows the truth about her past and is secretly meeting with Earth's fighters which is causing suspicion with Kahn...that's feigning loyalty.
Why is Scorpion still after Sub-Zero in MK4? Did he not swear to become Sub-Zero's protector?"
Quan Chi deceived him? Why not...when Kahn tried to get Scorpion to join him in MK3, Scorpion turned against him because of his vow to protect Sub-Zero. Quan Chi wanted Scorpion on their side during MK4, so it makes sense he'd need a way to make Scorpion break this vow. And what better way than to start suggesting he was involved with the death of his family and clan? Remember, Scorpion killed the odler Sub-Zero to avenge HIS death. He attacks the younger Sub-Zero to avenge his family & clans death. Why didn't Scorpion already assume the younger Sub-Zero...being Lin Kuei...was involved? Because Scorpion believed the younger Sub-Zero was more merciful when he saw him spare an opponents life in MKII.
That theory holds as much merit as any of the explanations for how Shaolin Monks works.
"Im going by what I think the MK team wants the MK2 storyline to be, which I think they made clear in the MKSM Fight Night."
But they haven't made it clear. And they've since backtracked on MK:SM being canon...probably because they saw the backlash against it. That's why I take it as a greenlight to disregard if I choose to.
" I personally agree with you that I like the MK II comic book better."
Okay then. All I wanted to know.
The MK3 Storyline:
"For centuries, Earth has used Mortal Kombat to defend itself against Outworld's Emperor, Shao Kahn. But Kahn grows frustrated by failed attempts to take Earth through tournament batle. He enacts a plan which began 10,000 years ago. During that time, he had a Queen. Her name was Sindel..."
And Sindel's MK3 bio:
"Sindel once ruled Outword at Shao Kahn's side as his Queen. Now 10,000 years after her untimely death...."
If Sindel was Shao Kahn's bride 10,000 years, he must therefore have already conquered Edenia. And since Kitana is 10,000 years old, she must therefore had only just been born at the time.
"So why would Shao Kahn take over Edenia 10,000 years ago and wait almost 9,000 years before trying to take Earthrealm?"
Who says Edenia was the last realm conquered before Kahn went after Earth? They never said when he conquered Zatterra. Or the Vampire realm. And apparently there are dozens of other realms that have been conquered.
"I dont see anything about Kitana ferigning loyalty to Shao Kahn. Like I said, Im not going to argue what story is better, because everyone has their own opinions. Im arguing the point that MKSM can be canon to the storyline."
If Kitana is believed to be a personal assassin for Shao Kahn, yet already knows the truth about her past and is secretly meeting with Earth's fighters which is causing suspicion with Kahn...that's feigning loyalty.
Why is Scorpion still after Sub-Zero in MK4? Did he not swear to become Sub-Zero's protector?"
Quan Chi deceived him? Why not...when Kahn tried to get Scorpion to join him in MK3, Scorpion turned against him because of his vow to protect Sub-Zero. Quan Chi wanted Scorpion on their side during MK4, so it makes sense he'd need a way to make Scorpion break this vow. And what better way than to start suggesting he was involved with the death of his family and clan? Remember, Scorpion killed the odler Sub-Zero to avenge HIS death. He attacks the younger Sub-Zero to avenge his family & clans death. Why didn't Scorpion already assume the younger Sub-Zero...being Lin Kuei...was involved? Because Scorpion believed the younger Sub-Zero was more merciful when he saw him spare an opponents life in MKII.
That theory holds as much merit as any of the explanations for how Shaolin Monks works.
"Im going by what I think the MK team wants the MK2 storyline to be, which I think they made clear in the MKSM Fight Night."
But they haven't made it clear. And they've since backtracked on MK:SM being canon...probably because they saw the backlash against it. That's why I take it as a greenlight to disregard if I choose to.
" I personally agree with you that I like the MK II comic book better."
Okay then. All I wanted to know.
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Who says Edenia was the last realm conquered before Kahn went after Earth? They never said when he conquered Zatterra. Or the Vampire realm. And apparently there are dozens of other realms that have been conquered.
If Kitana is believed to be a personal assassin for Shao Kahn, yet already knows the truth about her past and is secretly meeting with Earth's fighters which is causing suspicion with Kahn...that's feigning loyalty.
Well that was the point of my post, she may have known about her true past which would require a spell to keep her loyalty. The seeing talking to Earth's fighters can be right after the battle with Jade and Mileena where she was in fact talking to Earth warriors.
Quan Chi deceived him? Why not...when Kahn tried to get Scorpion to join him in MK3, Scorpion turned against him because of his vow to protect Sub-Zero. Quan Chi wanted Scorpion on their side during MK4, so it makes sense he'd need a way to make Scorpion break this vow. And what better way than to start suggesting he was involved with the death of his family and clan? Remember, Scorpion killed the odler Sub-Zero to avenge HIS death. He attacks the younger Sub-Zero to avenge his family & clans death. Why didn't Scorpion already assume the younger Sub-Zero...being Lin Kuei...was involved? Because Scorpion believed the younger Sub-Zero was more merciful when he saw him spare an opponents life in MKII.
That theory holds as much merit as any of the explanations for how Shaolin Monks works.
Well see your taking Scorpion's MK3 ending as canon, when those events may not have happened at all. He was released from the Netherealm and holds allegiance to no one. Yeah Quan Chi did want Scorpion on his side, and Scorpion's MK4 bio explains how Quan Chi got Scorpion on his side, he offered Scorpion life. Scorpion I think already thinks Sub-Zero is the murderer, which is what the "ulterior motive" Scorpion has in his MK4 bio. I think Scorpion thinks its the same Sub-Zero, because during his battle in MK Mythologies is the time period where his clan and family were murdered. The story does not say that Quan Chi told Scorpion about Sub-Zero being the murderer, it gave a counter explanation of how Quan Chi gains Scorpion's services.
But they haven't made it clear. And they've since backtracked on MK:SM being canon...probably because they saw the backlash against it. That's why I take it as a greenlight to disregard if I choose to.
Oh in the MKSM Fight Night they did make it clear. They actually tried to explain the story such as the bosses deaths and say that the Quan Chi mess may be cleared up in a future game when they could have just said it is not canon. Why give themselves more work? And you will have to point out where they backtracked on MKSM being canon, because I have not seen it. If you can do this then I will concede my entire arguement to you.
Okay then. All I wanted to know.
OK
If Kitana is believed to be a personal assassin for Shao Kahn, yet already knows the truth about her past and is secretly meeting with Earth's fighters which is causing suspicion with Kahn...that's feigning loyalty.
Well that was the point of my post, she may have known about her true past which would require a spell to keep her loyalty. The seeing talking to Earth's fighters can be right after the battle with Jade and Mileena where she was in fact talking to Earth warriors.
Quan Chi deceived him? Why not...when Kahn tried to get Scorpion to join him in MK3, Scorpion turned against him because of his vow to protect Sub-Zero. Quan Chi wanted Scorpion on their side during MK4, so it makes sense he'd need a way to make Scorpion break this vow. And what better way than to start suggesting he was involved with the death of his family and clan? Remember, Scorpion killed the odler Sub-Zero to avenge HIS death. He attacks the younger Sub-Zero to avenge his family & clans death. Why didn't Scorpion already assume the younger Sub-Zero...being Lin Kuei...was involved? Because Scorpion believed the younger Sub-Zero was more merciful when he saw him spare an opponents life in MKII.
That theory holds as much merit as any of the explanations for how Shaolin Monks works.
Well see your taking Scorpion's MK3 ending as canon, when those events may not have happened at all. He was released from the Netherealm and holds allegiance to no one. Yeah Quan Chi did want Scorpion on his side, and Scorpion's MK4 bio explains how Quan Chi got Scorpion on his side, he offered Scorpion life. Scorpion I think already thinks Sub-Zero is the murderer, which is what the "ulterior motive" Scorpion has in his MK4 bio. I think Scorpion thinks its the same Sub-Zero, because during his battle in MK Mythologies is the time period where his clan and family were murdered. The story does not say that Quan Chi told Scorpion about Sub-Zero being the murderer, it gave a counter explanation of how Quan Chi gains Scorpion's services.
But they haven't made it clear. And they've since backtracked on MK:SM being canon...probably because they saw the backlash against it. That's why I take it as a greenlight to disregard if I choose to.
Oh in the MKSM Fight Night they did make it clear. They actually tried to explain the story such as the bosses deaths and say that the Quan Chi mess may be cleared up in a future game when they could have just said it is not canon. Why give themselves more work? And you will have to point out where they backtracked on MKSM being canon, because I have not seen it. If you can do this then I will concede my entire arguement to you.
Okay then. All I wanted to know.
OK
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subzero961 Wrote:
Oh in the MKSM Fight Night they did make it clear. They actually tried to explain the story such as the bosses deaths and say that the Quan Chi mess may be cleared up in a future game when they could have just said it is not canon.
Oh in the MKSM Fight Night they did make it clear. They actually tried to explain the story such as the bosses deaths and say that the Quan Chi mess may be cleared up in a future game when they could have just said it is not canon.
Probably because they underestimated how much fans would reject the storyline.
subzero961 Wrote:
And you will have to point out where they backtracked on MKSM being canon, because I have not seen it. If you can do this then I will concede my entire arguement to you.
And you will have to point out where they backtracked on MKSM being canon, because I have not seen it. If you can do this then I will concede my entire arguement to you.
You got me there. It was something mentioned off hand in some random interview...around E3, I think. No definitive source that I know of...just like the confirmation that Special Forces is non-canon or that Johnny Cage didn't die in MK3...which if I remember, you refuse to believe as well.
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Yeah I usually only believe things if I hear it from the source. I dont take info from the grapevine as fact.
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subzero961: Yes, not all endings are canon, but there are certain things in it that are. Take Noob-Smoke's ending for example. The backstory stuff about what happened to the older Sub-Zero and that he had not seen his brother since before he became a wraith has to be canon as it explains something that has already happened. Especially the part in which it mentions the two brothers haven't seen each other in a long time gives clue to events in their stories.
The same also goes for Scorpion's UMK3/MKT ending, which mentions him making a vow to protect the Younger Sub-Zero. This is something that's already happened. Then there's Kitana's endings in MK2, UMK3, and MKT that make reference to things that have happened already (Kitana learning about her true past, Edenia being merged with Outworld, etc.).
About Kung Lao, what you misunderstood was the point I'm trying to make. He was someone who didn't want to get involved in the tournament, not because he was trying to be peaceful, but because he didn't want to follow in his ancestor's footsteps and have to go through the same burden. But yet, MKSM changes Kung Lao into an arrogant, childish jerk who DOES want to become the champion. And this change is simply meant as a (lame) excuse to establish a rivalry with Liu Kang.
I thought Raiden had destroyed the fake...
Hmm...
XiahouDun84: Actually, in one of Sub-Zero's MKDA Konquest missions, it states that Quan Chi framed the older Sub-Zero for the death of Scorpion's family and clan, something I'm pretty sure was also brought up in MKM: SZ before fighting Scorpion in the Netherrealm.
But yet, Scorpion's primary bio in MKDA states that Scorpion has "assumed" for many years that Sub-Zero had killed his family and clan until Quan Chi eventually revealed the truth. Also, subzero961 makes a good point about Scorpion's MK4/MKG bio in which Scorpion agrees to help Quan Chi and Shinnok due to having an ulterior motive, which is to get at Sub-Zero. These things seem to point to me that Scorpion believes that the current Sub-Zero is the same one he killed thus making him into more of a dumbass than he already is.
Also, I'm afraid that Scorpion's MKA bio will most likely not give any redemption to his story thus completely establishing Scorpion as an idiotic, revenge-crazed, asshole who looks for trouble only to get his ass handed to him time and time again. And the fact that as long as Boon is around and doing MK games, we'll see more of this Scorpion for years to come.
I really think that with the way Kung Lao's MKA ending is, Scorpion's behavior in MKA's Konquest, and Sub-Zero being much like his MKSM self in MKA's Konquest, it seems to me that they are trying to establish MKSM as canon, which yes, indeed fucks up MK's story into something extremely shallow and annoying.
If only we were to go to Vogel and explain these kinds of things to him, maybe he would understand.
The same also goes for Scorpion's UMK3/MKT ending, which mentions him making a vow to protect the Younger Sub-Zero. This is something that's already happened. Then there's Kitana's endings in MK2, UMK3, and MKT that make reference to things that have happened already (Kitana learning about her true past, Edenia being merged with Outworld, etc.).
About Kung Lao, what you misunderstood was the point I'm trying to make. He was someone who didn't want to get involved in the tournament, not because he was trying to be peaceful, but because he didn't want to follow in his ancestor's footsteps and have to go through the same burden. But yet, MKSM changes Kung Lao into an arrogant, childish jerk who DOES want to become the champion. And this change is simply meant as a (lame) excuse to establish a rivalry with Liu Kang.
I thought Raiden had destroyed the fake...
XiahouDun84: Actually, in one of Sub-Zero's MKDA Konquest missions, it states that Quan Chi framed the older Sub-Zero for the death of Scorpion's family and clan, something I'm pretty sure was also brought up in MKM: SZ before fighting Scorpion in the Netherrealm.
But yet, Scorpion's primary bio in MKDA states that Scorpion has "assumed" for many years that Sub-Zero had killed his family and clan until Quan Chi eventually revealed the truth. Also, subzero961 makes a good point about Scorpion's MK4/MKG bio in which Scorpion agrees to help Quan Chi and Shinnok due to having an ulterior motive, which is to get at Sub-Zero. These things seem to point to me that Scorpion believes that the current Sub-Zero is the same one he killed thus making him into more of a dumbass than he already is.
Also, I'm afraid that Scorpion's MKA bio will most likely not give any redemption to his story thus completely establishing Scorpion as an idiotic, revenge-crazed, asshole who looks for trouble only to get his ass handed to him time and time again. And the fact that as long as Boon is around and doing MK games, we'll see more of this Scorpion for years to come.
I really think that with the way Kung Lao's MKA ending is, Scorpion's behavior in MKA's Konquest, and Sub-Zero being much like his MKSM self in MKA's Konquest, it seems to me that they are trying to establish MKSM as canon, which yes, indeed fucks up MK's story into something extremely shallow and annoying.
If only we were to go to Vogel and explain these kinds of things to him, maybe he would understand.
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subzero961: Yes, not all endings are canon, but there are certain things in it that are. Take Noob-Smoke's ending for example. The backstory stuff about what happened to the older Sub-Zero and that he had not seen his brother since before he became a wraith has to be canon as it explains something that has already happened. Especially the part in which it mentions the two brothers haven't seen each other in a long time gives clue to events in their stories.
Well certain endings have some truth to it and some things not true about it. Yeah it says that Sub-Zero had not seen his brother since he became a wraith, but that part may not be true, yeah it goes along with the other backstory that Sub-Zero turned into Noob Saibot. I go by a simple rule in MK, all endings are subject to be false until something substantiates it in another game. Though I believed Sub-Zero did turn into Noob Saibot when I first saw the ending, I didnt take it as 100% fact until MKSM mentioned it, and that was enough for me. Thats how I do it, since I think everything is subject to be wrong, and its only correct when another game proves or disproves the ending.
The same also goes for Scorpion's UMK3/MKT ending, which mentions him making a vow to protect the Younger Sub-Zero. This is something that's already happened. Then there's Kitana's endings in MK2, UMK3, and MKT that make reference to things that have happened already (Kitana learning about her true past, Edenia being merged with Outworld, etc.).
Yeah it mentions Scorpion being the protector, but like I said information presented in endings are subject to be false unless another game confirms the ending. If the endings were always reliable of what actually happens in the storyline then Id agree with you, but nothing in the endings has to have happened, which is why I wait till the next game to find out what happens. Best I can explain this is using Sheeva's ending, her ending is partially true in that she kills Motaro, but not true in that she kills Shao Kahn at the end of MK3.
About Kung Lao, what you misunderstood was the point I'm trying to make. He was someone who didn't want to get involved in the tournament, not because he was trying to be peaceful, but because he didn't want to follow in his ancestor's footsteps and have to go through the same burden. But yet, MKSM changes Kung Lao into an arrogant, childish jerk who DOES want to become the champion. And this change is simply meant as a (lame) excuse to establish a rivalry with Liu Kang.
Im sorry, I did misunderstand you. Well I cant defend that, this is more of a case of personal preference more than anything else.
I thought Raiden had destroyed the fake... Hmm...
We actually never find out what happens to the fake amulet after Sub-Zero gives it to Raiden.
Well certain endings have some truth to it and some things not true about it. Yeah it says that Sub-Zero had not seen his brother since he became a wraith, but that part may not be true, yeah it goes along with the other backstory that Sub-Zero turned into Noob Saibot. I go by a simple rule in MK, all endings are subject to be false until something substantiates it in another game. Though I believed Sub-Zero did turn into Noob Saibot when I first saw the ending, I didnt take it as 100% fact until MKSM mentioned it, and that was enough for me. Thats how I do it, since I think everything is subject to be wrong, and its only correct when another game proves or disproves the ending.
The same also goes for Scorpion's UMK3/MKT ending, which mentions him making a vow to protect the Younger Sub-Zero. This is something that's already happened. Then there's Kitana's endings in MK2, UMK3, and MKT that make reference to things that have happened already (Kitana learning about her true past, Edenia being merged with Outworld, etc.).
Yeah it mentions Scorpion being the protector, but like I said information presented in endings are subject to be false unless another game confirms the ending. If the endings were always reliable of what actually happens in the storyline then Id agree with you, but nothing in the endings has to have happened, which is why I wait till the next game to find out what happens. Best I can explain this is using Sheeva's ending, her ending is partially true in that she kills Motaro, but not true in that she kills Shao Kahn at the end of MK3.
About Kung Lao, what you misunderstood was the point I'm trying to make. He was someone who didn't want to get involved in the tournament, not because he was trying to be peaceful, but because he didn't want to follow in his ancestor's footsteps and have to go through the same burden. But yet, MKSM changes Kung Lao into an arrogant, childish jerk who DOES want to become the champion. And this change is simply meant as a (lame) excuse to establish a rivalry with Liu Kang.
Im sorry, I did misunderstand you. Well I cant defend that, this is more of a case of personal preference more than anything else.
I thought Raiden had destroyed the fake... Hmm...
We actually never find out what happens to the fake amulet after Sub-Zero gives it to Raiden.
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About the endings...
I don't think Sheeva's ending is a good example as her killing Motaro is not something that has already happened in the past. That's something that she does in her ending, much like how Noob and Smoke kill Sub-Zero in their ending. However, the stuff in Sheeva's ending that mentions about what Shao Kahn is doing to the Shokan is stuff that's kind of already happened/been happening.
The same applies to the backstory given in Noob-Smoke's ending, where it mentions things that have happened already (older Sub-Zero getting killed by Scorpion and descending into the Netherrealm, becoming Noob Saibot). The two crossing paths with Sub-Zero and killing him is the what-if part.
Scorpion's UMK3/MKT ending pretty much confirmed that he vowed to protect the Younger Sub-Zero, something mentioned in his MK2 ending. Now while his MK2 ending could've ended up non-canon, I find it strange that the mention of the vow was brought up in his UMK3/MKT ending, which leads me to believe he actually did vow to protect him.
For Kung Lao, yes, it is more of a personal reference. But the point I'm trying to make is that they changed his character, much like how they changed Scorpion's character. Maybe it doesn't quite contradict any of his bios, but you'd think that he would've taken part in Shang Tsung's tournament instead of Liu Kang, especially since he is the direct descendant of the Original Kung Lao.
About Raiden, noted.
I don't think Sheeva's ending is a good example as her killing Motaro is not something that has already happened in the past. That's something that she does in her ending, much like how Noob and Smoke kill Sub-Zero in their ending. However, the stuff in Sheeva's ending that mentions about what Shao Kahn is doing to the Shokan is stuff that's kind of already happened/been happening.
The same applies to the backstory given in Noob-Smoke's ending, where it mentions things that have happened already (older Sub-Zero getting killed by Scorpion and descending into the Netherrealm, becoming Noob Saibot). The two crossing paths with Sub-Zero and killing him is the what-if part.
Scorpion's UMK3/MKT ending pretty much confirmed that he vowed to protect the Younger Sub-Zero, something mentioned in his MK2 ending. Now while his MK2 ending could've ended up non-canon, I find it strange that the mention of the vow was brought up in his UMK3/MKT ending, which leads me to believe he actually did vow to protect him.
For Kung Lao, yes, it is more of a personal reference. But the point I'm trying to make is that they changed his character, much like how they changed Scorpion's character. Maybe it doesn't quite contradict any of his bios, but you'd think that he would've taken part in Shang Tsung's tournament instead of Liu Kang, especially since he is the direct descendant of the Original Kung Lao.
About Raiden, noted.
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Scorpion's UMK3/MKT ending pretty much confirmed that he vowed to protect the Younger Sub-Zero, something mentioned in his MK2 ending. Now while his MK2 ending could've ended up non-canon, I find it strange that the mention of the vow was brought up in his UMK3/MKT ending, which leads me to believe he actually did vow to protect him.
I see your point with my Sheeva example's fallacy. You were talking about the backstory that the ending was explaining. I think even those can turn up not true. The only reason I dont believe that it happened is because it was still Scorpion's ending that mentions him being the protector, I think the bios are the only thing that tells definitive information about the characters.
Here is a better example, there was one line of Rain's MKT ending:
"He learns that his father was once a general in Edenia's army and died at the hands of Shao Kahn himself."
Even though the ending attempts to explain a part of Rain's backstory, we now know this isnt true either seeing how we now know that Rain's father is Argus.
I see your point with my Sheeva example's fallacy. You were talking about the backstory that the ending was explaining. I think even those can turn up not true. The only reason I dont believe that it happened is because it was still Scorpion's ending that mentions him being the protector, I think the bios are the only thing that tells definitive information about the characters.
Here is a better example, there was one line of Rain's MKT ending:
"He learns that his father was once a general in Edenia's army and died at the hands of Shao Kahn himself."
Even though the ending attempts to explain a part of Rain's backstory, we now know this isnt true either seeing how we now know that Rain's father is Argus.
"He learns that his father was once a general in Edenia's army and died at the hands of Shao Kahn himself."
Even though the ending attempts to explain a part of Rain's backstory, we now know this isnt true either seeing how we now know that Rain's father is Argus.
Even though the ending attempts to explain a part of Rain's backstory, we now know this isnt true either seeing how we now know that Rain's father is Argus.
Yeah, but Rain is the half brother that Taven and Daegon never knew about. And apparently Rain was unaware of this fact too. It's not a big leap to suggest that Argus hid Rain away and that the Edenian general that Shao Kahn killed was Rain's adoptive father.
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Yeah, but Rain is the half brother that Taven and Daegon never knew about. And apparently Rain was unaware of this fact too. It's not a big leap to suggest that Argus hid Rain away and that the Edenian general that Shao Kahn killed was Rain's adoptive father.
That is really irrelevant, that may be what happened. However, the ending taken how it is, which stated that Rain's father is an Edenian General is false. Which would make his endings backstory false even if there was some other way to read into it. And there really is nothing else to confirm that there was an Edenian General that was killed by Shao Kahn, its a 50/50 if that General even existed.
That is really irrelevant, that may be what happened. However, the ending taken how it is, which stated that Rain's father is an Edenian General is false. Which would make his endings backstory false even if there was some other way to read into it. And there really is nothing else to confirm that there was an Edenian General that was killed by Shao Kahn, its a 50/50 if that General even existed.
That is really irrelevant, that may be what happened. However, the ending taken how it is, which stated that Rain's father is an Edenian General is false. Which would make his endings backstory false even if there was some other way to read into it. And there really is nothing else to confirm that there was an Edenian General that was killed by Shao Kahn, its a 50/50 if that General even existed.
At the time of MKT no one knew about Argus. As far as Rain and Kitana were concerned, the Edenian general that raised him WAS his father. So that part of his MKT ending is still valid.
Then MKA comes along and says, "The man you thought was your father only adopted you." Seriously, it's not that big of a leap to make. This kind of thing happens all the time in real life.
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At the time of MKT no one knew about Argus. As far as Rain and Kitana were concerned, the Edenian general that raised him WAS his father. So that part of his MKT ending is still valid.
Then MKA comes along and says, "The man you thought was your father only adopted you." Seriously, it's not that big of a leap to make. This kind of thing happens all the time in real life.
Umm MKA never mentioned Rain's "adopted" father, that is only an assumption you made. The only place the Edenian General was mentioned was in the MK Trilogy ending. My argument isnt that it couldnt work, you just demonstrated that it could, my argument is that we really dont know if thats what happened. Nowhere else did it ever mention that Rain was adopted by an Edenian General, therefore it also isnt a big leap to say that piece of story was retconned, just because it can work doesnt mean thats how it happened.
Granted we didnt know about Argus before so therefore they couldnt have envisioned Argus being Rain's father. Thats why I think that piece of ending was retconned. To the MK staff the Edenian General probably was probably originally envisioned as Rain's father, Im sure they didnt think at the time that the Edenian General was Rain's adopted father and that Rain's father was really a god. Now they could make that story work, but they never mentioned that General again, and I wont make the assumption that the Edenian General is Rain's adopted father until something more concrete says thats what happened.
Then MKA comes along and says, "The man you thought was your father only adopted you." Seriously, it's not that big of a leap to make. This kind of thing happens all the time in real life.
Umm MKA never mentioned Rain's "adopted" father, that is only an assumption you made. The only place the Edenian General was mentioned was in the MK Trilogy ending. My argument isnt that it couldnt work, you just demonstrated that it could, my argument is that we really dont know if thats what happened. Nowhere else did it ever mention that Rain was adopted by an Edenian General, therefore it also isnt a big leap to say that piece of story was retconned, just because it can work doesnt mean thats how it happened.
Granted we didnt know about Argus before so therefore they couldnt have envisioned Argus being Rain's father. Thats why I think that piece of ending was retconned. To the MK staff the Edenian General probably was probably originally envisioned as Rain's father, Im sure they didnt think at the time that the Edenian General was Rain's adopted father and that Rain's father was really a god. Now they could make that story work, but they never mentioned that General again, and I wont make the assumption that the Edenian General is Rain's adopted father until something more concrete says thats what happened.
Umm MKA never mentioned Rain's "adopted" father, that is only an assumption you made.
Based on information we've all held to be true since 1996.
I'm not quite understanding your position though. You're fighting so hard against a simple fix like this, yet you try to justify the screw job that is MKSM's story.
I was reading one of your posts up above and you said (about MKSM), "Ignore the fatalities, Ignore the costume changes, any dialogue relating to the fatalities can be ignored, the ending with Quan Chi can be ignored, the line from the Elder Gods can be ignored."
How much can you ignore before MKSM's story finally breaks apart?
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Based on information we've all held to be true since 1996.
I'm not quite understanding your position though. You're fighting so hard against a simple fix like this, yet you try to justify the screw job that is MKSM's story.
I was reading one of your posts up above and you said (about MKSM), "Ignore the fatalities, Ignore the costume changes, any dialogue relating to the fatalities can be ignored, the ending with Quan Chi can be ignored, the line from the Elder Gods can be ignored."
How much can you ignore before MKSM's story finally breaks apart?
Simple, you ignore things that doesnt hold up to the overall MK story. The reason I say ignore things such as Sub-Zero saying his allies are hunting him is because we know that that doesnt happen till MK3. More sources also says the Elder Gods doesnt interfere in the affairs of mortals, so why should we listen to the one thing that says otherwise? Simply, Im taking the whole story and seeing what can hold up to the whole storyline and what cant.
Im not fighting Rain's father story angle, Im just telling my point of view of why I think the Rain's father angle is retconned instead of being part of the story.
I'm not quite understanding your position though. You're fighting so hard against a simple fix like this, yet you try to justify the screw job that is MKSM's story.
I was reading one of your posts up above and you said (about MKSM), "Ignore the fatalities, Ignore the costume changes, any dialogue relating to the fatalities can be ignored, the ending with Quan Chi can be ignored, the line from the Elder Gods can be ignored."
How much can you ignore before MKSM's story finally breaks apart?
Simple, you ignore things that doesnt hold up to the overall MK story. The reason I say ignore things such as Sub-Zero saying his allies are hunting him is because we know that that doesnt happen till MK3. More sources also says the Elder Gods doesnt interfere in the affairs of mortals, so why should we listen to the one thing that says otherwise? Simply, Im taking the whole story and seeing what can hold up to the whole storyline and what cant.
Im not fighting Rain's father story angle, Im just telling my point of view of why I think the Rain's father angle is retconned instead of being part of the story.
To each their own then. I'm just going to go back to something Xiahoudun84 said.
No.
It's not.
Shaolin Monks is a fun game to play. A lot of fun. Despite the crappy voice acting in the cut-scenes (I swear they just found someone hanging out by the copier machine) and the revisionist history, I'll still play this game, because the gameplay mechanics are solid and fun.
As a retelling of the MK2 story it fails horribly.
*disclaimer*
In MY opinion.
Like I've been saying all along, it's not so much a question of "Can things be explained?" it's a question of "Is it worth it?"
No.
Yeah, all the plot-holes and contradictions can be explained away and fit into the storyline. But how is any of it an improvement?
It's not.
Shaolin Monks is a fun game to play. A lot of fun. Despite the crappy voice acting in the cut-scenes (I swear they just found someone hanging out by the copier machine) and the revisionist history, I'll still play this game, because the gameplay mechanics are solid and fun.
As a retelling of the MK2 story it fails horribly.
*disclaimer*
In MY opinion.
Speaking of good gameplay might I say MKSM is the most playable in a while. Now I do agree with the majority on how ceartin things don't make sense in the story, but the fact that John Tobias was behind the story for MK1-MK3 makes it seem that EB might be trying to retcon the original story.
I think ill just point out something. In Liu Kangs MK2 bio, it says that he gets pissed because he went home to his Shaolin Temple to find all his fellow monks slauherted by a bunch of Tarkatans. Then in his Ending. It says he enters Shao Kahns Tournament. Sence when dose and MK tournament have only have two poeple entering? and its says he esaly whipes out all his opponents, because hes so mad. If this is so, then why dose Kung Lao kill most of the people? ( he dose kill most of the people, right?)
laofan Wrote:
I think ill just point out something. In Liu Kangs MK2 bio, it says that he gets pissed because he went home to his Shaolin Temple to find all his fellow monks slauherted by a bunch of Tarkatans. Then in his Ending. It says he enters Shao Kahns Tournament. Sence when dose and MK tournament have only have two poeple entering? and its says he esaly whipes out all his opponents, because hes so mad. If this is so, then why dose Kung Lao kill most of the people? ( he dose kill most of the people, right?)
I think ill just point out something. In Liu Kangs MK2 bio, it says that he gets pissed because he went home to his Shaolin Temple to find all his fellow monks slauherted by a bunch of Tarkatans. Then in his Ending. It says he enters Shao Kahns Tournament. Sence when dose and MK tournament have only have two poeple entering? and its says he esaly whipes out all his opponents, because hes so mad. If this is so, then why dose Kung Lao kill most of the people? ( he dose kill most of the people, right?)
Well, actually Kung Lao was the pacifist of the two so he didn't really kill anyone. Liu Kang and Raiden are the two who are most responsible for that title. Anyway, everyone in MK2 entered the tournament entered the only thing was that it was fake and was just a trap to lure the Earthrealm warriors in.
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moving back to the costumes, reptiles costume pictures him as reptillian which contradicts reptiles slow de-evolution over the MK-games. at the time of MK 2 reptile was in no way lizard-like.
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