The new timeline, and retcons

Member Since

06/15/2011 08:07 PM (UTC)

It was pretty clear in the last game that changes in the story weren't only due to this being a new timeline, but some full-blown retcons as well, beginning with Mileena's birth. Are you okay with retcons?

Personally, I think it really depends on how they are handled. I'm not sure how I feel about Mileena being a newborn. Like, whether the other changes that came with it were good or not.

Kotal Kahn's entire existence could be a retcon in itself, as he wasn't around in the old timeline to try and claim the throne of Outworld for himself. However, it may merely be a matter of pretending that he was always around, that he tried to claim the prize by killing Blaze during the events of Armageddon, and failed, like so many others, that Raiden meeting him in MKX will be treated like Johnny and Sonya meeting again in MK9.

Or, perhaps Shao Kahn dying after the invasion is what allowed Kotal to enter the fray. In the old timeline, Shao was still alive, and faked his own death. Perhaps Shao's very existence was an obstacle to Kotal, and he(Kotal) needed him gone. Also, not only Shao Kahn lived through Armageddon, but then you also had the Deadly Alliance, and Onaga. My point being, as unflattering as it may sound, is that maybe Kotal just didn't stand a chance with all these heavyweights around. Now Shao's gone, we don't know if Quan Chi and Shinnok will even be involved, and Onaga will probably still be bodiless at the start of the story mode. Kotal's probably not gonna be the main villain, so he might get overthrown by one of them, or another new player, or someone familiar but unexpected.

It's just my attempt at explaining how Kotal can exist without retconning any parts of the story. Truth be told, I really don't mind pretending he was always around, but that he didn't get to be a major player in the old timeline. Hell, we don't even know if he'll be one in MKX. Some events that we know happened in the previous games can still happen imo, even with additions such as Kotal.

About Me

MK Khronology: 58.49% complete...

•08/13/2014 03:12 PM (UTC) •

Kotal's existence needs no retcons, unless there were prior statements of Kahn having no biological children of his own (which I don't think there were). A retcon is a direct change to a previously established fact (like completely revamping Mileena's storyline). This is more along the lines of introducing a completely new character where there was none before; nothing really needs to be changed in order for Kotal to exist. We don't really need an explanation to what he was up to in the old timeline; we can say he was irrelevant.

•08/13/2014 03:22 PM (UTC) •

Shadaloo Wrote:
Kotal's existence needs no retcons, unless there were prior statements of Kahn having no biological children of his own (which I don't think there were). A retcon is a direct change to a previously established fact (like completely revamping Mileena's storyline). This is more along the lines of introducing a completely new character where there was none before; nothing really needs to be changed in order for Kotal to exist. We don't really need an explanation to what he was up to in the old timeline; we can say he was irrelevant.

Still, I hope there's a reason he was "irrelevant" in the old timeline, as MKX's story mode is apparently going to largely about his rise and fall. That's quite a step-up for someone who in the old timeline, might have barely been more relevant than Kobra. Perhaps he was an enforcer. Skarlet was after all introduced in the last game.

Cassie is another new character who might be a retcon in herself. Because in the old timeline, as far as we know, Johnny and Sonya didn't have a child. Perhaps we'll find out that they did, which would be less a retcon, and more a new information, and that preventing Armageddon allowed Cassie to grow up.

thisiscourage

@thisiscourage

About Me

•08/13/2014 03:30 PM (UTC) •

DG1OA Wrote:

Still, I hope there's a reason he was "irrelevant"

I am sure there will be. He is the product of the retcon already laid out in mk9. (Shao Kahn being killed by Raiden and the Elder Gods.)

The fact that Shinnok and quan chi came out and said "everything is going to plan" (summarized quote) leads me to believe that they either A.) felt some disturbance that indicated to them that raiden had Time jumped and they themselves were aware of the events to come as well. or B.) they in some way planned the time jump and were themselves the ones who "allowed" Raiden to jump back in time.

About Me

MK Khronology: 58.49% complete...

•08/13/2014 03:37 PM (UTC) •

Cassie is even less of a retcon than Kotal. She is a direct result of the timeline changing and splintering into a direction that enabled Johnny and Sonya to bump uglies.

Retcons - retroactive continuity changes -are completely seperate from results of timeline changes (of which Cassie is a symptom). Mileena's birth is different because it is not a result of Raiden's actions during MK9; it's an established fact in the old timeline which was completely revised for plot reasons. That's a retcon; different from a timeline split or the presence of a new character.

•08/13/2014 03:50 PM (UTC) •

Shadaloo Wrote:
Cassie is even less of a retcon than Kotal. She is a direct result of the timeline changing and splintering into a direction that enabled Johnny and Sonya to bump uglies.

Retcons - retroactive continuity -are completely seperate from results of timeline changes (of which Cassie is a symptom). Mileena's birth is different because it is not a result of Raiden's actions during MK9; it's an established fact in the old timeline which was completely changed for plot reasons. That's a retcon; different from a timeline split or the presence of a new character.

But what would have stopped Johnny from knocking up Sonya (hope that didn't sound sexist) in the old timeline? Could their relationship be a consequence of so many allies dying? That's why Cassie's existence might merely be revealed as something that already happened in the old timeline, and that we just didn't know about until now. Cassie by the time Armageddon happened was only a kid, or a pre-teen.

About Me

MK Khronology: 58.49% complete...

•08/13/2014 04:04 PM (UTC) •

The changes that ocurred in MK9 might have even been enough; the fact that they emerged as the lone survivors of the invasion and bonded. In fact I'd say that seems likely; I'm guesing Cassie's age and presence will be reflected towards the end of the 25 year period (Just realized that Sonya might not be in a position to fight during the war against Shinnok - if there is one this time - due to pregnancy.)

It's one thing to say that the grand evil emperor of Outworld sired some bastard kids along the way; happens all the time in fiction and so Kahn having a hidden son makes a kind of sense. But we know that Johnny and Sonya pretty well went back to their day-to-day lives in Hollywood and the Special Forces after the events of MK4, IIRC Deadly Alliance was the first time the group had gotten together in years; they just weren't together. Cassie existing in the original timeline would be a huge retcon (and, IMO, an awful one), but I doubt it'll come to that.

•08/13/2014 04:09 PM (UTC) •

DG1OA Wrote:
But what would have stopped Johnny from knocking up Sonya (hope that didn't sound sexist) in the old timeline? Could their relationship be a consequence of so many allies dying? That's why Cassie's existence might merely be revealed as something that already happened in the old timeline, and that we just didn't know about until now. Cassie by the time Armageddon happened was only a kid, or a pre-teen.

I am sorry, but you are reaching.
If Kotal and Cassie (or any other new character for that matter) were not involved in the past stories, it doesn't mean that their appearances are retcon. Those are new developments, but they do not change established past in any way, hence not retcon.

The same way as Onaga's existence wasn't retcon for the original timeline or Shinnok and Quan Chi's existence were not retcons for MK classic games (though there were retconned elements).

RazorsEdge701

@RazorsEdge701

About Me

•08/13/2014 06:38 PM (UTC) •

Shadaloo Wrote:
unless there were prior statements of Kahn having no biological children of his own (which I don't think there were).

"Mileena is his heir, she should rule." - from MK9

And since she was JUST born and is not biologically related to Kahn, that means, at the very least, that if he DOES have any biological offspring, no one in his court's ever heard about it.

A son kept secret is a valid possibility, but if he has his own kid, then WHY has he been adopting Edenians and clones?

Odemuitascastas

@Odemuitascastas

•08/13/2014 06:53 PM (UTC) •

The only relationship that seems legitimate to establish Kotal as heir to Shao Kahn is that it is the God that Would Replace.

With Shao Kahn dead a new Protector of Outworld God needs to be created. Shinnok with further ports.

Blade4693

@Blade4693

About Me

•08/13/2014 07:05 PM (UTC) •

I just chalk it up to Raiden's meddling in the MK2011 story. Since things didn't happen the same exact way they did in the original MK1-3 timeline, it makes sense that things are different then how they would have been if things were to have happened the same way. Like a Chaos Theory/Butterfly effect kind of deal. I hope that is how it is.

About Me

MK Khronology: 58.49% complete...

•08/13/2014 08:34 PM (UTC) •

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:

Shadaloo Wrote:
unless there were prior statements of Kahn having no biological children of his own (which I don't think there were).

It's possible Kahn himself plain never knew Kotal existed, or he's the black sheep of the family, exiled or banished, the one no one talks about for whatever terrible reason.

Kahn may have been a despot, but he did keep a throne. Kotal may have been considered unfit to rule or something.

Chrome

@Chrome

About Me

•08/13/2014 09:26 PM (UTC) •

The answer is simple.

The retcons are simply a retelling of the original story in a version which NRS prefers. They decided that a Kitana finding her half naked sister in the Shang Tsung hobby room scene would work better, so they retconned her previous knowledge of her twin clone.

It is the priviledge of the writer to have a better idea and to implement it in any way or form.

That is to say, the response from the audience is also his or hers to bear should he reestablish new facts.

Tekunin_General

@Tekunin_General

About Me

Twitter~Facebook~Youtube~~~~~PSN: Casselman/LockUpYourBones

•08/13/2014 10:13 PM (UTC) •

Shadaloo Wrote:
The changes that ocurred in MK9 might have even been enough; the fact that they emerged as the lone survivors of the invasion and bonded. In fact I'd say that seems likely; I'm guesing Cassie's age and presence will be reflected towards the end of the 25 year period (Just realized that Sonya might not be in a position to fight during the war against Shinnok - if there is one this time - due to pregnancy.)

It's one thing to say that the grand evil emperor of Outworld sired some bastard kids along the way; happens all the time in fiction and so Kahn having a hidden son makes a kind of sense. But we know that Johnny and Sonya pretty well went back to their day-to-day lives in Hollywood and the Special Forces after the events of MK4, IIRC Deadly Alliance was the first time the group had gotten together in years; they just weren't together. Cassie existing in the original timeline would be a huge retcon (and, IMO, an awful one), but I doubt it'll come to that.

You just made me imagine pregnant Sonya gameplay...

•08/14/2014 01:27 PM (UTC) •

I really wouldn't be surprised if the new timeline was used to retcon various characters, particularly most of the post-MK3 characters, out of existence.

raidenthefridge

@raidenthefridge

About Me

Thanks to MINION for taking my Siginity!

•08/14/2014 02:53 PM (UTC) •

Casselman Wrote:

You just made me imagine pregnant Sonya gameplay...

Pregnant Sonya Carwheel Kick...

About Me

MK Khronology: 58.49% complete...

•08/14/2014 03:02 PM (UTC) •

DG1OA Wrote:
I really wouldn't be surprised if the new timeline was used to retcon various characters, particularly most of the post-MK3 characters, out of existence.

Let's hope not, because that just wreaks more havoc with the original timeline to the point where half the events that took place won't make any sense and we'll have to go "Raiden fucking with the timestream rearranged reality itself in timeline B". It would be incredibly sloppy and lazy, especially coming after all the crap they pulled to fan backlash in MK9's story mode.

•08/14/2014 03:30 PM (UTC) •

Shadaloo Wrote:

DG1OA Wrote:
I really wouldn't be surprised if the new timeline was used to retcon various characters, particularly most of the post-MK3 characters, out of existence.

I also hope not, but I also disagree a little. With the events of MK4 and beyond not having happened yet, NRS can pretend they never never did, that this is indeed a new reality. I'd hate it, but I don't think it'd be non-sensical.

It'd just be annoying to see so many characters and so many stories with vast potential wiped out, for the sake of a new story, and new characters that they might end up doing away with too if fan backlash proves overwhelming. NRS can be daring, but when push comes to shove, they often chicken out. All these new characters they've created, moving the story 25 years into the future, could be undone as well in future MK games. Don't be surprised if any of MKX's new characters ends up in Ed Boon's character deadpool.

lastfighter89

@lastfighter89

•08/14/2014 03:41 PM (UTC) •

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:

Shadaloo Wrote:
unless there were prior statements of Kahn having no biological children of his own (which I don't think there were).

There is still a possibility nobody took in consideration or ruled out too hastenly. Kotal Kahn could be a "spiritual" heir /successor to Shao Kahn.

I meant, it is true that he was a dictator and all v but there were some people really supporting him, Reiko being one and Skarlet a second.

Kotal could introduce himself as the long forgotten son of the now dead despot and seeking an alliance with netherrealm forces in order to conquer Earthrealm and making a name for himself : managing where the original Kahn failed.

This could lead to several scenarios like Baraka feigning alliance knowing that Kotal is just a poser. After all Baraka can recognize humans and Living beings by the smell of their blood.

So Baraka could ask some help to overthrow Kotal... And who is better suited than Mileena in aiding Baraka?

•08/14/2014 04:13 PM (UTC) •

DG1OA Wrote:
I also hope not, but I also disagree a little. With the events of MK4 and beyond not having happened yet, NRS can pretend they never never did, that this is indeed a new reality. I'd hate it, but I don't think it'd be non-sensical.

I am not sure why people still think that MK4, MKDA, MKD and MKA SHOULD happen somehow? It's unreasonable, illogical, closeminded, I dare say so.

MK9 clearly changed a lot of stuff exactly to evade repeating those events. Some of them are even completely impossible now, like formation of Deadly Alliance, which in its turn make Deception events out of question. And don't make me start about MKA.

I don't really understand this odd conviction, that NRS is OBLIGATED to remade MK4, MKDA, MKD and MKA. No, they don't obligated to do it, and such idea, that they must repeat those events, exists only in minds of some fans, which is, as I already have stated, is illogical and faulty belief.

DG1OA Wrote:
It'd just be annoying to see so many characters and so many stories with vast potential wiped out, for the sake of a new story, and new characters that they might end up doing away with too if fan backlash proves overwhelming.

If you want your old stories - go play old games. They are still there.
The series must evolve and repeating old stories is not the way to do it. MK9 was a big fanservice fest for many reasons. Time to move on and make something completely new. Remaking old games, which were not very popular amongst general audience, is no the way to go. And, no making games just fo fans of those ones, is not the way to go either.

Majority of the fans and general players could care less about MKDA, MKD and MKA and its characters. Nobody will miss the likes of Darrius, Dairou, Kobra, Hsu Hao, Mokap and others. It's not to say that all of them without any kind of potential, but realistically speaking it will be easier to create completely new characters, rather then improving those guys.

So...in the end: NRS is not obligated to repeat old stories. There are simply not enough reasons to do so.

As for me, I completely satissfied with their decision. I wanted new story, not a rehash, which was my main problems with MK9, and I finally, after 10 years of waiting I got exactly what I wanted.

•08/14/2014 04:53 PM (UTC) •

You didn't really get what I was saying, did you, RedSumac? I'm not saying they should repeat the events of MK4 and beyond. My worry is only that they'll pretend that most of the post-MK3 characters don't exist. Because I feel there is a place for them in the new storyline. That through this storyline, they could take many of the old characters' stories in new directions.

And I don't really care what most of the fans and the casual players want. Tanya used to be unpopular, until the developers went against the majority's wishes by bringing her back in MKD. Now many of the fans are clamoring for her.

•08/14/2014 05:21 PM (UTC) •

DG1OA Wrote:
You didn't really get what I was saying, did you, RedSumac? Heh. Baka. I'm not saying they should repeat the events of MK4 and beyond. My worry is only that they'll pretend that most of the post-MK3 characters don't exist. Because I feel there is a place for them in the new storyline. That through this storyline, they could take many of the old characters' stories in new directions.

I am not 9-ball.

I've got what are you trying to say, but the problem is it would be quite hard to reintroduce post-MK3 characters without repeating the same stories, because most of them have been specifically created with them in mind.

Of course it's possible to do that, but I don't want it for two reasons: first, reintroducing post-MK3 characters in a new stories could feel forced. Second, I'd prefer to have new characters in a new story, because reusing old ones, will make me feel like MK-world is too small. That the same bunch of character always involved with incidents over and over. This is why I prefer partial renovation of the roster for each game, instead of having the same cast, like many other fighting games does.

While I am saddened that certain character most likely will never return (Nitara or Li Mei), I still have games where they were awesome and that's what matters for me.

DG1OA Wrote:
And I don't really care what most of the fans and the casual players want. Tanya used to be unpopular, until the developers went against the majority's wishes by bringing her back in MKD. Now many of the fans are clamoring for her.

And still she is really popular only with people inside MK fanbase. Of course, she is more known to the general audience than Mokap or Meat, but it nowhere near close to the likes of Raiden or Mileena.

You might nor care about what fans and GA want, but your personal desires also do not relevant. The final say belongs fo the NRS.

•08/14/2014 05:45 PM (UTC) •

@RedSumac
For starters, my apologies for one of the things I said.

To me, the appeal of re-introducing familiar characters in the new timeline is to see what would happen with their stories. I'd truly like to see what purpose Li Mei's character would have if her village wasn't attacked (though that could still end up happening when Kotal takes over Outworld).All returning characters don't have to suffer Scorpion with nearly unchanging stories. Using this new timeline to completely erase the rest of MK's story post-MK3, like I fear they will do, would be wasteful. Though it was probably the main reason the story went back in time anyway.

•08/14/2014 08:10 PM (UTC) •

DG1OA Wrote:
All returning characters don't have to suffer Scorpion with nearly unchanging stories.

That leads us to another problem, if you change their stories and appearances (which in case of some of the characters is necessary), then what will left from their past incarnations? Wouldn't it be easier to create entirely new characters, rather then revamp old ones to the point where they will share only name with their past incarnartions, which will lead to another fans displeasure?

DG1OA Wrote:
Using this new timeline to completely erase the rest of MK's story post-MK3, like I fear they will do, would be wasteful. Though it was probably the main reason the story went back in time anyway.

I think their main reason for the MK9 story, was not to erase post-MK3 characters (quite a lot of them were referenced in MK9 (Bo'Rai Cho, Havik, Onaga) or have appeared as Easter Eggs (Daegon, Tanya)), but to fix mess that was created by the MKA and prepare playfield for the next generation of Kombatants and completely new story.

Considering that in NRS's eyes some characters most likely were beyond salvation (like Hsu Hao or Mokap) I wouldn't exlude possibility that some of them will be (were?) eliminated from the MK'verse entirely, but I don't think it will happen with every single one of them. Afterall, we had Kenshi in MK9, so...