Oke point made, story is important. Nuff said.

Killing of most characters in benifit of the storyline? I think killing most of the characters is in benifit of the game. For me, MK is drained out.

They started over in MK4, 10 of the 36 characters left if Im right. Then they made a mistake...they brought back all the characters again. This time with new ones..and now MK consists of dozens plots, bosses, fatalities, moves...that have less value. Why? because it's too much, u can say this is because of the lack of originality within the team. But with 63 characters its hard. This pulls the game down, so I think for MK to rise again it needs to begin with a small character selection and if this works out, then they can expand it, but not like before, keep it modest and focus on other things like gameplay and such. Look at Virtua Fighter...

So I think killing most of the characters is needed. But this is more of a personal opinion.

errrrrrr....we know story is vital, but gameplay is even more important. You guys are just blinded by the love of the story that you are not seeing that mk is a video game. Gameplay makes the game a game. How ignorant can you guys get? But i'll say it again, we agree, story is vital. And none of you have convinced me that killing characters is needed, MKDA was a great rebirth and they didn't kill off characters, they just didn't simply bring them back. They only brought them back in MKD because fans were bitching. And they were able to bring them back because they weren't killed off. Imagine if fans (the customers) want Kabal in MK9, the MK team are going to go through all that resurrecting shit. Just put the characters you dont want for next gen on the side, instead of killing them.

Yup!

Fans want their favorite characters in the game, and that indeed is why lots of classics returned in Deception. I'm betting a similar bitching frenzy will occur again if MK8's characters aren't so exciting, and for the series' sake, I hope they are.

And ThePredator151, once again you've done nothing but restate everything you've said before. Lord, these are just repetitive, tedious posts of yours.

I haven't proven my points? ...Right. Like what? That with or without story MK is extremely successful and popular? That extermination of the roster is unnecessary because DA brought us something totally new without killing off over half the cast? Or that your lame excuse for Konquest making MK an RPG is bullshit considering how Konquest is now only a tool for story-telling and unlockables?

Konquest has indeed become crucial to MK, but only for the sake of explaining the story thoroughly and letting players unlock items. It doesn't occupy half of the game as you're saying: "MK is half gameplay, half story."

The story only gives the fighting a theme.

So MK1 was about a tounament, right? But say they decided to make the story about a war.... Would the fighting format have been different? No, we still would have fought rounds, climbed the latter, and defeated the boss.

Same thing with Deception... Shujinko has foolishly granted the King realm-threatening power... Did that stop MK's main mode from being the same thing it was in MK1? Climb to the top and kill people?

Sorry, I just think you're being so retarded. Story is a part of MK, but we don't play the story except in Konquest, which is not the main focus of MK, just a plus mode for story-telling, unlockables, and some miniature fighting.

So you're saying that in MKA, for instance, Taven's life occupies half of the entire game, correct? That by buying Armageddon, I bought his story instead of a game like Street Fighter or Tekken where I can just beat up people? LOL!!!

MK and all other fighting games have the same basic elements. The fact that MK delivers elabortate (and interesting) stories with their games is only a special quality MK has. You're obssessing over something that's not even the core of MK.

MK8 will have the exact same gameplay format, moron, despite whatever story they make up. You'll kill people in rounds until you reach the end boss. How is destroying the roster gonna provide something entirely different than that? It'll only provide a new story (which will influence some arenas and character concepts) like DA did, except with killing off most of the characters. And unless MK8's characters are as exciting as our classics, the main mode of MK won't so fun since only boring characters will be selectable for play.

Goodness, for someone who has good vocabulary skills, you can't hold even a somewhat intricate concept at once in that retarded mind of yours. Drinking kills braincells, dumbass... (and I know you drink). *giggles*

I see now why you feel storyline shouldn't be much of a factor in deciding characters' fate. You both clearly have no grasp of proper storytelling or characterization. The problem here isn't that we believe storyline is more important than gameplay...I'll repeat that ahnka: NO ONE IS SAYING STORYLINE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN GAMEPLAY...the problem is that we want a good story.

The little discussion regarding Sonya has confirmed this. Sub-Zero_7th and I explained what is wrong with Sonya's character and why she hasn't changed. This confused you and you didn't understand what was wrong. Then you go on to say Sonya has depth for you because of the movie. Bad news: the movies don't give Sonya any depth. Sonya was one of the few characters the movies got right....right down to her lack of actual depth. Sonya actually has more depth in the games than in the movies.

A character with depth is a character who has multiple aspects to their personality. Like Scorpion for example...he HAD depth. He was a hellspawn spectre obsessed with revenge...BUT, he also valued honor and tried to hold on to some semblence of it. And sometimes, his quest for vengeance conflicted with his sense of honor. This is how Scorpion used to be in the old games. That is character depth.
Sonya doesn't have this. She never did. The closest thing Sonya has to depth...in the games and the movies...is a fear of loss. That's it...and it's not much.

This isn't biased opinion talking. I was taught this. in school, by profesionals. It's called characterization.

What you want, QueenSindel, is a storyline where no one ever really dies, nothing ever really changes, and every character does essentially the same thing again and again. Really what your arguing for is a refusal to accept change and evolution. And in proper storytelling, change and evolution is essential. Characters need to die or run their course to keep the story alive. To create a sense of meaning and consequence so that we can actually CARE about the characters and what happens to them.

What you want is cheap, shallow, grade-school, soft storytelling. Like I said, it isn't that we think story is the most important thing...I'll repeat that again, ahnka: NO ONE IS SAYING STORYLINE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN GAMEPLAY...It's that we just want a good story.

Well, Boon claimed Armageddon is supposed to tie up the current storylines and bring a new era. This is the key difference between what MK8 should be and what MK:DA was. No one said MK:DA was going to be an all new era of storylines. They said Armageddon was the end of this generation in terms of gameplay AND story. Therefore, some characters shouldn't survive. Some shouldn't return.
From a storytelling standpoint, this is wise. The story and cast has become bloated. Some characters have overstayed their welcome and are simply not worth bringing back. And from every other standpoint, this is wise as well. Streamling the cast and trimming the fat will allow the MK team to concentrate more and gameplay, new characters, designs, and fatalities. And again, change is essenital. Finding out which few characters will return and whether the new cast will be good or bad is, IMO, far more exciting than simply getting the same shit recycled at me yet again.

Mortal Kombat will always sell good because it is Mortal Kombat. As long as there's blood, fatalities, and a dark atmosphere people will buy it. And if some fans are dumb and shallow enough to abandon a game because their personal favorite doesn't make it....good riddance. Find a new favorite or fuck off. You won't be missed.

First off, dont make it seem like i dont know what story is. I happen to be an expert at the story and is obessed with it, i'm just stating that Queen sindel is right, gameplay comes first, then story. Hell, even midway will tell you that. We're not saying story dosen't matter, it does. Story and gameplay both go hand in hand. But gameplay is what makes the game a game. And you wanna talk about good ridence? Remeber that when five or even less games down the rode when you have an urge to play as a certain character but cant since they are never coming back. MKDA didn't eliminate the whole roster, it just didnt bring the certain characters the mk team didnt want back, why can't MK8 be the same? Why do we have to KILL when MKDA didn't kill anything. Its pointless to me. And i'm not trying to be ignorant, i am listening to you guys, but you guys aren't making sense. And fans are the customers, you'll be saying good ridence to the money if you KILL anybody. We're not saying everygames has to be a MKT/MKA, MKDA wasen't. We're just saying, why can't mk8 be like MKDA in the fact that it didn't kill anybody and instead just had them on the side lines until they were needed again?

I'm sure you do, but knowing what the storyline is and knowing how to tell a storyline properly are two different things.



But how does bringing back a dozen old characters improve the gameplay? How does the return of Liu Kang make the gameplay better? How does Scorpion's presence improve the fighting engine?

If it's special moves you're speaking of...only a small handful of characters have truly unique special moves worth keeping. Johnny Cage's shadow kick? Jade does it, too. And better, IMO. Sonya's leg grab. Suppose they introduce Sonya's daughter in the next generation. Why wouldn't Sonya teach her trademark move to her kid? Most special moves are interchangable.



Because Armageddon is meant to be the end of this generation in both gameplay AND story. End of this generation, in storyline terms, means some characters are going to end. They will meet the final fates and either live happily ever after or die. That's the purpose of Armageddon. To not kill anyone, to go on as though nothing happened defeats the purpose.



I'm sure I will miss Kitana if she's gone. But you know what I'll do when I feel the urge to play as her again or any other character that doesn't return? I'll...play a game in which they were in the game. Kitana wasn't in Deception. You know what I did when i wanted to play as her in paticular? I played Deadly Alliance. Or I dusted off my N64 and played Trilogy. Or my SNES and played MKII.

Or hell...if they bring create a character back...I could always just make my own Kitana. The addition of a create a character mode has even further trivialized the need to constantly bring back old characters. All the MK team needs to do is expand the options available.

I'm sure I will miss Kitana and some of the other characters I like who didn't make it. I will remember them fondly through the rosey colored sunglasses of nostalgia.

But, at the end of the day, they are just fictional characters in a video game. Somehow...life will go on.

Being a fan favorite shouldn't be the sole reason why a character should return.



Yes, I want Sonya's story to take a different direction, but ALSO, I want her to have character development.



I never said or implied that Sonya is 1-dimensional, but she's somewhere along those lines.

The movies and cartoon faithfully portray the characters with their original personalities even though they aren't canon?

Well, then, going by that, it would mean the following:

Nightwolf is a computer geek that "transforms" when a wolf goes inside him.

Jax has always had a stereotypical "gangsta" personality despite being a Major in the United States Special Forces.

Raiden has indeed been witty despite his MKSM self.

And most of all...

Scorpion has indeed always been a 1-dimensional imbecile from the beginning.



Considering the directions they too, you're right. However, before MKA, it may have ended up differently. We didn't know at the time where the story will exactly go from MKD, so we could've had the Dragon King as the boss again and not have Ermac and Liu Kang help free Sonya, Kung Lao, JC, Jax, and Kitana yet.



Yes, pretty much. However, as a character, he's really 1-dimensional as for Sonya, there's kind of a bit more to her, but not that much.



Let me say this again: Deadly Alliance's story was/is not the last of this generation, but MKA's story IS.



Had the MK team never released bios, I more or less would've agreed with you. However, now that we know some things, the pyramid story actually makes a lot of sense and is a good story.

While Argus and Delia have sent their sons, Taven and Daegon, to go on their quest, Shinnok is using this to lead all those warriors to their death while he takes Blaze's power for himself.



Why should my judgment on characters be based on what fans in general like?



Is she?



Did you even play MKA's Konquest? He was in Shinnok's spire (though it may have simply been one of Shinnok's apparitions).



No, I'm not talking about Scorpion's image but the costumes themselves.



It depends on what they do with him.



No. There's a story that explains a character's return.

Why should Sonya continue to be a recycled character when other things about her are recycled (I don't just mean her story type and lack of character development either.)?



I think your overrating Frost's popularity and underrating Kenshi's popularity. Bo' Rai Cho has been getting excessive promotion? Since when?



Thank you, Ms. Obvious...



But yet you were against the idea of any characters being killed off. Which is it?



It's about Taven's quest to save the realms from Armageddon.

The characters are fighting to reach the top of the pyramid to defeat Blaze and gain power.



Are you sure?



He may be a fan favorite, but not as much as someone like Scorpion, Sub-Zero, or Raiden. His exclusion won't have that much of an impact.



I'm talking about how much popularity you say that Frost has attained.



Well, given the whole Tekunin thing, Sonya may return. Baraka, well, he's more likely done for.



To some yes, but not all of the popular ones can simply make it. Popularity alone should not be a determining factor in a character's return.



You don't understand.

I'm frustrated with her constant lack of comprehension in what I'm saying. It's almost as if she didn't read anything I said before.

I keep saying that this isn't a gameplay-related thread and that I never stated that story is more important than gameplay. I even said that I care about the gameplay and certainly want it to improve.

However, the fact that she continues to not understand this and repeat the same thing really displays her ignorance and stupidity.



She keeps ignoring the fact that I never stated anything about story being more important than gameplay.



I don't think he ever said that MK is an RPG. So what if Konquest is a side mode? Does that make the story elements in non-canon or something?



We all know that MK is fictional. There was never any implication that any of the characters' lives are lives in the real world.



But weren't you against the idea of any characters getting killed off?



I disagree. A good story does not make a better fighting game, but better core mechanic designs and proper implication and execution of all the needed basics will, on the other hand.



No, you are just blinded by your stupidity, ignorance, and overall lack of comprehension. Even after the many times I repeated myself, you still fail to understand anything I've said, almost as if you haven't read it at all.

Once again: I NEVER SAID THAT THE STORY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE GAMEPLAY!



Wrong. Characters like Sheeva, Motaro, and Liu Kang died.



I doubt that.



Here you go again with this. Even though both XiahouDun84 and I have said that we never said that story is more important than gameplay and that we said that gameplay is important and should come first, you still fail to comprehend that and think we're saying the opposite.



QS(TB) now seems to think that killing off characters like Jarek and Kobra are fine, so now you two have something to disagree on.



Like I said, MKDA had characters like Sheeva, Motaro, and Liu Kang die, so you're wrong. So much for you being an expert in the MK storyline.

As for why MK8 can't be like MKDA, you still don't understand that MKA's story is the last story of this generation and is trying to wrap up various stories to set things up for the next-generation MK games.

It's not like all the characters are needed again. Do we really need to see characters like Meat and Mokap return? I certainly don't think so.

Xia... You want a good story, right? So how does eliminating most characters promise a good story? Is it so impossible for MK8 to deliver a good story with our current cast? Cuz you're making it seem like if it's sooooo impossible.

And the reason including fan favorites will help the gameplay is by making it fun since we get to play as... fun characters. I really don't want MK8 to be loaded with a cast consisting mostly of Jarek and Kai quality characters.

And Sonya does have more depth in her TV appearances than in the games. Defenders of the Realm showed a character who can be sweet, humorous, and tough who wanted to do more things than just kick ass all the time. Kitana had little depth in that show, always having the same formal, serious, honor-sworn attitude. When a character like Sonya can have many different faces and a versatile personality, it shows depth to me. And in the movies, she had a problem with her over confidence and team work skills... not much but it beats the games.

And when have I said that I wanted MK to always have the same stories with characters doing the same things over and over? All I've been saying is killing off most characters shouldn't happen and that characters shouldn't be judged solely by their stale stories, as you're doing.

And about grade-school storytelling... "MK characters never really die." This is what the fans went by since MK1 and nobody considered it cheesy, just MK's style. Oh but now that Ed has announced most characters will permanently die were getting people saying "Yeah they should cuz otherwise it's lame storytelling." Um, since when did the fans start thinking like this on their own?

What I'm saying is, trying to validate what good storytelling is for MK by using Ed's recent annoucement of "a clean slate" and without considering MK's past storytelling success (when characters would always return) is lame and hypocritical if you were ever an MK story fan before this announcement, and I know you are since you're always ranting about old stories.

Bottomline, if characters return, it doesn't stop the story from being great. Liu returned immediately after he died and no one complained. Then Armageddon brought back all the characters and everyone went crazy over that.

Gameplay mechanics do make the gameplay fun, but characters are what make it memorable and appealing. Lots of boys would rather play as Scorpion than as a character with the most effective combos and specials.

And if Kitana doesn't return for next-gen u won't feel bad cuz u can just play as Kitana in an older MK game? Um, don't those games get boring after a while? Wouldn't you rather experience Kitana refreshed and renewed in a new game than to be stuck playing as some old and overly played version of her?

And yes, if Sindel and Jade don't return, I'll try to find a new fav. The question is... Will any MK8 females be cool? The only new popular females since 1997 are Frost and little bit Tanya, so I'm hoping at least one will rock.

And no, I'm not necessarily afraid of change, just loosing character quality. Most new characters since MK4 haven't become popular. Will MK8 new characters be any different? I'm betting so. It's a risk I don't Midway should take. Of course MK8 should have new characters, but I don't think they should dominate the cast.

Also, all MK games will not always sell well as long as they have blood, fatalities, and a dark atmosphere. MK:Mythologies is proof of this. Also, MK4 and MKA might have sold well, but they incited tons of bitching.

Sub_Zero7th....

So not every character was portrayed entirely faithfully in the movies and cartoon to their game personalities, but their somewhere along the lines if not entirely. Now that I think about it, Nightwolf is way off, but Jax has one in-game gangsta costume, and Raiden... I'm not sure. He was wise in the cartoon and movies, he's wise in the games. Sonya was a touch chick and more in the cartoon though.


The point is... DA was the beginning of a new direction in MK for the next-gen consoles of that time. MK8 is doing the same thing... Just for a new next-gen consoles MK experience, but why is it taking such a completely different approach to accomplish this than DA did?

Frankly, as I understand, Ed is not killing off the MK roster for the sake of a good new story. He's killing it off because he wants to completely start over with MK entirely, not just storywise, so why you and Xia are using this change to justify that next-gen MK needs a good story and nothing else is beyond me.

Next-gen should have interesting stories, fun gameplay, and of course attractive characters that can accumulate tons of fans, which is why Ahnka and I agree that no one should die cuz most current characters are wanted and craved. They should continue to be used, and the fans will demand for them down the line, which will lead to problems if they're "permanently" dead.

And yes, I agree that if characters like Jarek died it wouldn't really affect MK, but I guess what my real opinion here is that I don't think it's smart to kill off MOST characters. I suppose some, if seriously unwanted and uncared for die, it really won't make a difference.

Anyway... MK4 completely changed MK with a different story and cast and it turned out to be one of the least liked MK games. DA did the same thing and succeeded, so MK8 could go both ways since it's doing what they did all over again.... except leaving most of the classic characters behind (never been done before so I'm curious and worried at the same time).

Not impossible, but highly unlikely. Clinging to a worn out and decayed past does not make for a good future.



Maybe if the MK team wasn't spending time on revamping the old characters for the seventh or eighth time, they'd be able to concentrate on making better new characters?



I rest my case.



You have no problem with Sonya never changing or evolving, just as long as she's fighting a different character. You have no problem with Baraka coming back again and again, just as long as he's "refreshed," which I'm sure to you serving the latest bad guy would be satisfactory.



Wrong. You never notice people saying they hate Johnny Cage because of how he kept dying and come back? Scorpion? Mileena? When Shang Tsung's bio was released, you didn't notice fans groaning over yet another cheesey resurrection?
The "characters" never die thing is not good and should be done away with. And from what I've seen, most fans don't like lame resurrections.



How is it lame and hypocritical to support the MK team's decision to want to do something new? I don't understand this idiotic logic that I should regard the old characters as sacred cows who deserve special treatment just because they are old. I'm sick to death of the "classic" term. It's bullshit.

When I first came to this site, before Deception came out, the only characters that were labeled "classic" were the MK1 characters and a couple of MK2 characters. Few months later, it became everyone from MK1 and everyone from MK2. Then it became everyone from MK1 and MK2, and a few MK3 characters. Now, everyone from MK1 to UMK3 is considered a "classic."

You know why characters from MK4 and MK:DA aren't being labeled "classic?" They're not old enough. Wait a few months...and soon you're going to start seeing some MK4 characters get that label. And after that, MK:DA. And soon after that, Deception. The whole "classic" thing is bullshit and I don't believe the MK team should cater to fans who are shallow enough to like a character merely because they're old.

Characters from MK4 and after haven't caught on and gotten as large fanbases?
Wait.



Really? Sure fooled me when they announced he was coming back in Deception. I remember a lot more complaints than appraisal.



Yeah, because my biased fanboy opinion is much more important than the good of the series. Fuck new characters...I want Kitana. Fuck Jade and all her fans...I want Kitana. Fuck Mileena and all her fans....I want Kitana.

Like I said before, sure there's a part of me that wants Kitana back. That doesn't mean she should. What I want, does not override what Mortal Kombat needs.

And again, why don't they just bring back the create a character and make sure fan attacks are available for special moves?



Proof that a solid gameplay engine is needed.



He wants to revamp the series for the next generation. In addition to a new engine and revamped graphics, he wanted to wrap up the current storyline and characters because it's become bloated and/or stale.
We're not trying to justify MK needs a story and nothing else, we're justifying that revamping the story, which includes dropping old or worthless characters, is a wiser choice.

Borderline catatonic from this discussion, but, I think alot of people miss this point: Good characters deserve good endings. And I mean finite.

I do not want Shang Tsung to return, I want him to perish in MKA because it is ARMAGEDDON, the finalisation of the series for this generation. I do not want him to be dragged over just ebcause he is cool.

he is cooler if he meets his end in MKA. Think about this. Not every story is circular. Quality does not stem from popularity. Look a Kobra, he is far more interesting as a sociopathic murderer than -OMG gasp- Baraka, a dickbreed who has done absolutely nothing relevant onto his own charac-ter.

Don't you guys realize that a lot of times the story-line was contridicted in MK. I mean in Kano's ending for MKDA he KILLS sonya. You can even see her laying there with her brains splattered. (LOL) So tell me how the fuck did she manage to reappear in MKA? Same for Tsu Hao, Jax ripped the fucking implant from his chest for God's sake. How did HE come back. You know how? For fan reasons, that's why. They wanted to put all of the MK fighters in the game so these characters were just suddenly ressurected. I'm pretty sure you still bought the game right? Yeah you did. So based on the story line for MKA, give us the lineup for the next game. (MK8). Now lets say for story purposes, to keep MK from being so predicable (because that's what all this is about, right? Killing certain characters because bringing them back is too predictable?) the MK team decided to kill off BOTH Sub-Zero and Scorpion... Yeah wasn't expecting that to happen right? That's a real twist for ya. So they BOTH just die, so now what? I'll tell you what. I'm damn sure ain't gonna like that game, along with other MK fans so the sales would be garbage or just bought and returned to the shelves. You see what I mean? Probably not. I'm probably just wasting my time but my point here is that you just have to keep certain characters. Why? For the fan's sake and for popular purposes, unless of course they can come up with a way better roster to replace the ones we love. Hmmmmmmm...... Yeah Right *cough* Deigon*cough*

See? "WhatuknowaboutMK?" knows what he's talking about.

For popularity purposes, certain characters should return, and there are lots of popular characters out there besides Scorp and Sub. For instance, Scorp and Sub were both in MK4 and MKA, and look at the reception those games got from fans still. Meaning, Scorp and Sub aren't all the characters next-gen will need.

And Xia, I've been here at MKO since it was MK5.org (haven't visited it often until recently, but...) and I've always heard people calling characters from MK1 - UMK3 the classics because they are from the 2D games; the original games.

You're theory is that MK4 characters will soon be labeled "classic"? I seriously doubt that, especially since MK4 is in 3D, had a disliked boss who controlled the story, and a load of crappy new characters.


Bullshit. New characters like Frost and Kenshi were well developed. The problem is that character concepts have been mostly boring lately. Characters like Bo Rai' Cho for instance... You think he's a great character? Great look? Great moves? Great story?

He's just a fatass who vomits and happens to be a martial arts teacher. Gee, that must have taken LOTS of effort to come up with, huh?

It's not a time problem, it's about imagination when it comes to creating cool new characters. And obviously, Midway has been coming up with shitty characters compared to our classics, and I'm sure it's because they've been losing their touch in that department (personally, I think Tobias was the real brains behind character invention).


I do have a problem with this but it doesn't mean I want Sonya eliminated just for that. You are seriously overrating the bios (a few damn paragraphs) without considering the gameplay. I'd rather play as a tough chick with good combos, fun special moves, and cool fatalities like her than as some boring girl with a good bio. Ashrah had a pretty interesting story in Deception, but I find her boring to fight as in this fighting game.

Why is Scorpion the most popular character despite his repetitive bios? Because he's fun to play as for most people. Clearly.


As long as characters like Shao Kahn and Shang Tsung can perform sorcery, they'll always be ressurections in MK. So you wouldn't feel a bit pissed if Kitana's quick and honorless death in MKD had been permanent? Cuz if Armageddon happens for most of the characters, that's what it's gonna be: Quick and honorless to the characters; stupid.


It's not for wanting something new. But it is for bitching about cheesy resurrections barely now and not before.

And honestly, the whole "characters never really die" thing tells you beforehand that characters will be resurrected, so I don't understand why you and some other fans act so surprised. It's like... duh.

However, resurrections don't really affect the games' stories. They're just a small part of the stories, I don't see how they matter so much to you, especially since most of the characters are MK staples. They shape the MK Universe, they should continue to exist in it.


I don't understand how "new" characters becomes automatically "better" than the old ones. So you'd rather have a bunch of Bo Rai' Chos and Kobras ("new" characters) than characters like Reptile and Mileena who are appealing and far more interesting?

Lots of our current cast consists of cool characters whom getting rid of would be such a waste because they've got what most new characters do not... Star Power; Charisma: Attractive Qualities; Fun Qualities; Money-worth Qualities, etc.

Wouldn't you prefer that characters with these things continue to be recycled?

Getting rid of characters with such stardom, characters who attract us to MK, is a stupid idea.

Sure some characters won't matter if they're destroyed, like Mokap or whatever, but eliminating most characters is dumb unless MK8 characters are cooler, but like "WhatuknowaboutMK?" said... Yeah right *cough*

(It's a long shot; unlikely, judging from character inventions since 1997)

everybody has the right to their own opinion, I personally think that by killing all or most of the characters will kill the franchise. XiahouDun your being quite stubborn and need to chill a tad. I Understand where you guys are all comming from but basically this is how it should go. I personally think its bad to kill off alot of characters, let me put it bluntley.

HOW CRAP IS STREET FIGHTER 3! ok they got the awsome 2D graphics, but they got rid of all but 4 of the players from the 2nd. And added all these totally unorigional boring characters in that nobody likes, that is why the game blows.

Of course you need a good story line, otherwise there is no meaning, no hidden suprise at the end of it. However! you need decent gameplay. True characters don't DIRECTLY affect gameplay (which is what your suggesting XiahouDun) however they do INDIRECTLY affect it.

I mean when im playing MK 2, i normally chose liu kang, kung lao or johnny cage. when im playing with liu kang i feel the game going into turbo mode almost (because i have mastered that guy) however when i play with a character like jax for the sake of it, to me it feels real lumpy and restricted. Its hard to explain for the new games. What im getting at here is that Gameplay isn't always critisised by its graphics (which should never ever be judged) or its engine, its how you adjust to it and the characters you have chosen as your favourite. Its hard to explain what im getting at here, but surely you must've sussed it yourself...

As for the endings for each game the chances are they are non-canon and never actully or will happen.

QueenSindel(TheBitch):

It's simple. The MK series has been around for 15 years and has had several main games along with a few side games. Since the next-gen consoles are out and the series has been around for so long, it's about time to move on, not only with the gameplay, but with the story, and other things.

Like Xia said, we never said anything about wanting a good story and nothing else. I simply don't understand how you and Ahnka (ESPECIALLY Ahnka) keep getting this idea that we only care about the story and not the gameplay, especially since both of us have stated more than once that we think gameplay is important and needs to be a top priority? This is why I was frustrated with Ahnka's constant failure to carefully read and comprehend this. It's not like it's hard to understand.

Yes, next-gen should have interesting stories, fun gameplay, and attractive characters. However, fun gameplay does not exactly mean good gameplay. MKA can be fun to play, but much more so if you're not playing high-level or anything close to it. The reason why is because the gameplay is horrendous, containing 300-400 infinite combos (LITERALLY!).

Things like this show that MK's gameplay needs to greatly improve, starting with a proper design of the core fighting mechanics.

However, what you and Ahnka have to understand is that this is NOT a gameplay-related thread. I've said this before yet Ahnka keeps thinking I care about story and not about gameplay.

Sure, having some characters die off is fine. Others who don't automatically come back can sit out for a bit.

I can't agree about Frost and Kenshi being "well-developed". They are more minor characters, but I do like them both, moreso Kenshi.

Your comments about Bo' Rai Cho are ignorant and shallow. His appearance and demeanor are to deceive the opponent and make him/her overconfident. In actuality, he's a skilled and humble martial arts teacher/master who simply wants his homeworld to be free from tyrannical oppression, thus why he had been training various Earthrealm fighters for centuries.

I don't think Sonya should die, but I don't think she should return. Her overall story is semi-important.

How do resurrections not affect the games' stories? That doesn't make any sense.

whatuknowaboutMK?:

Um, I guess you aren't aware of the fact that not all endings happen. So for you to say that Sonya comes back in MKA even though Kano kills her in his MKDA ending, even though it never happened, is stupid.

Hsu Hao did die in his ending, but due to the decision to bring back all the MK characters in MKA, Hsu Hao has returned, much to John Vogel's dismay.

Popularity does not mean that a character is of a good quality.

Take Scorpion for example. He is a character of a very low quality, yet he is popular.

Wu-TangStyle:

Decent gameplay is something that MK4-MKA simply do not have due to a very poor design and execution of the core fighting mechanics. This isn't a gameplay-related thread, btw.

Agreed 100%, they have already gotten their point across, but they just keep talking.

That's the problem. It's also the problem you get rid of when you "kill" characters like those and start all over. You can eliminate that tendancy, which in my opinion is exactly the right thing to do by now since, those characters haven't recieved much development outside of "retcons". Which is what happens when you "go back and re-write the story".

I think it was XiahouDun who pegged it as "soft-story telling". It's not something I personally desire because I like "fact" when it comes to story-line. Retcons directly confuse the fact in a characters story..........Think about that, and then consider we have a roster of about 65.

It needs to be reduced.....greatly.




No, I didn't buy it....I have it nontheless. Look on Page 3 of this thread for my interpretation of the characters that should return. Beyond that 15 characters from this current roster, I belive any other additions should be new characters.



Wrong. This is not about predictability, it's about negleted characters on the roster and thier relavance/irrelavance to a game that's supposed to "wipe the slate clean". I don't really care to predict at all, but the thread provokes giving my opinion....so here it is.

If Scorpion and Sub-Zero "died" there's a plethera of possibility. How?
Well, Scorpion has//had a family. Being that this is Mortal Kombat, and some of our characters are Mythologiclly influenced....I wouldn't mind seeing Scorpions son. His story would certainly be interesting. Not to mention he is his fathers son, he may even inherit speacial moves.

Not worried about Sub-Zero....he's the GrandMaster of the Lin Kuei. Which is a very large group of ninjas on it's own. If he died I'm sure there will always be an adequate fulfillment to the void. Don't get me wrong aheh, those are big shoes to fill, but I'm sure we won't lack the element in Mortal Kombat anytime soon....not to mention Frost.

I'd would absolutely buy a game without Scorpion or Sub-Zero.....I bought 3 Mk games with-out Raiden in them as a playable character...My favorite character.

1. Mk3
2. Mythologies
3. Shaolin Monks



That point is not in dispute in this thread actually. The way I look at it, their are particular characters still selling the game whether it's crap or not. Two of those characters are Scorpion & Sub-Zero. We know that, so it's a non-disputed issue at this point. The mis-conception is that it is..in dispute.

The dispute in here now, is whether the majority of the roster should actually "die" in it's technical term: "Cease life". The big problem here is two issues:

1. What if the MkTeam wants to bring a "dead" character back, sometime down the line?"

and in opposition:

2. We won't need even some of the old/original/classic characters if the few that do come back, and the "new" that come from Mk8 are of greater quality or greater well...character.

So, contributing factors from my point of view is that the story or theme of Mk can dictate what characters are needed....In a game that is "wiping the slate clean", "tieng up story ens", "trimming the fat" or whatever.
Therefor, the majority of this current roster can "die"....and that's just one point of view of mine.
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The highlighted is one of my points. Mk is a game reliant on story. It even dictates game titles...and therefor can contribute to who is on a given games roster. If the characters in the game are no longer relavant to the story but they keep getting introduced to more and more games....they can be "killed". A few "classic" characters that this directly applies to is:

1.Jonny Cage:(I see he must be a fav of yours so sry, but he's been dead before and he's a mortal. If characters that are mortal never "die", the whole franchise name should change to co-oberate that. Since that's the most unlikely, re-form Cage as a character with an entirely different purpose in the series, or kill him. A "re-form" for him has a hint in his bio, but I beleive it's a little too late to develop a character like Cage. To me he's 1 word away from Liu Kangs current state......"corpse".)

2. Kano: He's been used up ever since he jumped on that boat in Mk1

3. Sonya: Ditto with Kano, except her latest addition opposite Sektor and the Tekunin. I wouldn't mind seeing her return in this new game because of this, but as stated, she lacks badly in the department of character development regaudless. Even as a SF officer. My compramise with her is within this "Jax kidnapping, Tekunin interference" introduced in her bio.

I feel I could definatly deal without Sonya if this story brought forth new, more relavant members of the SF. Sht, both her and Jax can die, or "die"= retire to a desk, for that matter.

And if they don't "cease life", they should be old as hell anyway by next game....they're mortals...remember? Shujinko's shouldn't be the only age-seseptable character in the game...series...franchise history

4. Goro: Just like Cage
5. Scorpion
6. Baraka
7. Jax
8. Kintaro

ect ect...

As far as the "however", gameplay should be good. I agree, but I'll add that game-play should reinforce that characters personality.....just like special moves. However, it should not dictate whether the character re-appears game after game, or lives or dies. Game-play should help establish a favorite (i.e. "I like the way so and so fights"...), but not so much determine what happends to the characters exsistance. That would be just like Scorpion all over again.....Gameplay is "functionality", Fav characters are "incentive" to use the functionality of a character or a game in general. It's mainly the reason I don't like Tekken, DoA, ect. there's something functional about them I just don't like although I do have "favorite characters" from those franchises.

___________________



If you don't want people to interact about a common subject, don't make a thread.

But you guys are just repeating the same crap over and over.

it's because you constantly fail to comprehend any of it.

For example, you've been told many times that this is NOT a gameplay-related discussion and that we never said anything about gameplay being unimportant. But the fact that you still can't understand things like this and continue to display your ignorance is what greatly frustrates and annoys me.

Them why we bother posting in this brain amputee of a thread? Ignore the two living fallacies and be done with it. If they fail to recognize logical pat-terns than leave them to their own dementia.

Both :::: and Temp UserName has done the exactly same choice when surrounded by such protein degrades sporting a nervous center.

See, Wu-TangStyle is getting the picture.

And like he said, characters do affect the gameplay. The gameplay mechanics are the foundation of the gameplay, but the characters are what flavor it, invigorate it, make it enjoyable.

Like I said, even if Scorpion isn't the highest tier character, lots of boys will still choose him for reasons I've already stated.


True, very true, but do you honestly think eliminating characters who have been successful since the series' start till now is a smart idea? What will eliminating them benefit? And please don't say just "the story."


I know, but then why are both of you in favor of high-quality characters dying simply because their stories have become stale?

It makes it seem that both of you (especially Xia) consider the characters' bios to be the most important thing. A couple of paragraphs shouldn't influence the characters' continuation in this series so much. What should matter and what does matter is how successful the character is overall; Are they lovable? Will they attract people to the series? etc.


Minor to the main stories, yes, but minor overall, I have to disagree. Things that are given lots of attention can't be minor, can they? Obviously, there is something "big" about them, like all popular characters.

And despite all you explained about Bo Rai' Cho, he can still be summed up as just a fatass who barfs and vomits because that's the image Midway has given him. His way of confusing his opponents to make them feel more confident doesn't even happen when u actually play as him. And if he's so honorable then Midway should make him radiate honor instead of goofy, annoying things intended to amuse 6-year-olds.


Because all it means is that a character has returned. Big deal. Does it stop the story from still happening? Does it interfere so badly with the events?

The only bad thing it does, story-wise, is take away the impact of that character's death. But since this is MK, I don't understand why u and Xia always act so surprised.


I'm pretty sure it does. In Scorpion's case, he might be low quality in one or two aspects of himself, but that doesn't stop his overall likability from still being.

You know. It's like when something gets rated people give it a 3 or a 2 in some things but a 9 overall. Same thing applies to characters.


Well she's right. You guys are repeating the same things over and over, and that's cuz we're all arguing in circles here. She has reason to believe you guys put story before gameplay, though. So do I, even though you guys say that's not your argument, it seems like it is still, especially Xia who's rooting for MK8 to have a "good story" without showing concern for the chance of many star-quality characters who make the gameplay fun being permanently eliminated along the way.

ThePredator151:

That depends on whether the character is praised game after game for their gameplay (moves, fatalites, image).

Story, as we've established, generally doesn't affect much of a character's likability (Scorpion for instance), but how they are in the game itself does (what has the spear move done for Scorpion?).

And stop giving people vocabulary lessons, like what u did with the words "die" (like even preschoolers know that one) and "retcon." It's unnecessary and lame.


If you're suggesting that story gives the entire game it's meaning, you're wrong. The point of MK is to fight; to play. Story just happens to be a strong feature of MK.

For instance, remember Shao Khan's hidden treasures? At the end of the game, story isn't always the hidden surprise at the end. Nowadays, yeah, that's the only surprise we get, but my point is that "story" (the characters' ending) was thrown into the jumble of Shao Kahn's treasures, meaning story is a plus like lots of other features of MK.

If it were as important as the rest of the game, I'm sure it would have been the only surprise at the end to capitalize its vitality.

Now, it's a prominent "plus" since it themes the game, influences certain aspects, and gives MK something else to be popular and interesting for, but like all secondary features, it shouldn't take control of the game's core which is to play, fight, and kill between characters.

And Predator, you didn't answer many questions in the last response of mine to your other post.

And just to say, you guys have still not given a reason to KILL any characters. I mean just don't bring them back. What is the point in killing? If midway kill any of the characters and then later on down the rode they resurrect them, so why couldn't we just not bring them back instead of killing them and going through all that resurrection shit?

Queen sindel is right, all that resurrecting makes the character's death less of an impact. Here they go killing off Liu,Goro and Kahn in MKDA, but yet their back in MKD.

And another thing, you guys really belive that we'll never see Meat and Mokap again? Please, this is mk baby, nobody never stays dead. And i think when they kill characters off in future games, kinda do it in a way where you can easily bring them back without resurrecting. And don't bring them back in the next game, i say a dead character should stay dead for atleast three games.

And you guys really think its going to be easy to create(Or should i say Kreate) a new cast of characters? A new cast of characters that can become classics themselves? They'll have to spend alot of time for that to happen.

And more than half of the armageddon roster has never been given a second chance. Many of those characters are just quickly made and given a lame story and then are hated by the fans, but its not the characters fault. Not their fought they are given the same story every game or that they are not more cooler.

I think, and this is my opinion, notice that i'm not passing it off as fact like many of you do. I think the MK team need to give MANY of the MKDA characters a second chance. They were some very good and original characters that was cheated out of MKD and MKA cheated every character story wise.

And look, who saids Kobra can't be the next Scorpion? Who saids Frost can't be the next Sonya? Who saids Fuijin can't be the next Raiden? Nobody. With much revampment, Kobra,Meat,Kira,Jarek,Drahmin,Moloch ect. can become the next generation of classics them selves. Look at Reptile, he had no story and was just a green sub-zero with both scorps and subs moves. Now he has went on to become one of the most original characters in mk and he now even has copy cats of his own(Khameleon and Chameleon).

Sub-Zero_7th:

Soooooo u just made a very interesting point now didn't u? Read what u just said. If the some of the MK stories never really happen then why should it be different all of a sudden? Why are you so worried about a story not making any sense if (and this is what YOU pointed out) some story's never really happen such as Sonya's fatal encounter with Kano? And why should it matter now? You see, u just want the story to matter now because u are just sick of seeing some of these significant fighters and u want something new. Well just because you are sick of some fighters, dosen't mean that everybody else is. It's stupid of me to say that? Are u calling me STUPID? Are u serious? Look man I can come up with many cases where the story didn't really apply to the following game. For an example: Let's see.... Oh here's a good one. In MKDA scorpion get's tossed into a soulnado in which his body and I quote: "is ripped apart by the purity of that realm." But yet..... BUT YET, he so happens to be one of the characters on the TOP row in MKD. How the fuck this happen? I'll tell you how. They couldn't just kill off Scorpion just like that. C'mon man he's a legend. So to bring him back into the story and make it look like he never really died in MKDA (which brings back ur point, the story/ending never happened) he escapes the soulnado and turns out to be the Champion of the Elder Gods? The only one that can defeat the Dragon King? Wow. Why didn't he just die and keep it that way? I'll tell u why. Once again, it was for popular reasons that's why. Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying that we should keep ALL 60+ characters because some characters really DO need to go. But you just can't base that fate on the story line, especially when it comes to fan favorites. And no you can't just create a new fighter with the same moves as old to replace them. Imagine if they killed Raiden for good and just created another God of Thunder or just a figher of such powers? That wouldn't piss you off? U know what I would think? It's a f****in rip off. They need to come up with brand new chacters with their own appearances and abilities (powers/moves). That is why I have a thread called "Supernatural Powers" so that you guys can help come up with new and fresh ideas for specials. But please stop with the killing off characters based on their story-line thing man. ya killing me here.

Yup.


And yup.

Legendary characters should continuously exist in the series. Most legends come from the 2D games, but some others appear to be reaching legendary status too. Some characters should be killed, most should not. Bad idea, I'm telling you.

QS: I don't put story before gameplay. I care about the story and gameplay a lot. Fun gameplay does not mean good gameplay. Try to understand that. Of course I care greatly about the gameplay and want it to be good. But even if we get that great gameplay, it doesn't mean that we'll get good characters.

Ahnka: Yes, we have give a reason for some characters to be killed off. One main reason is the story. If no one dies, it makes things bad for MK as Armageddon would be pointless and would take away meaning to it. With so many superpowered fighters, having none of them die would make Argus' plans a big failure and it would likely cause the destruction of the realms, which would likely lead to no more games.

Resurrection makes the character's death less of an impact if it's not done well. The characters you mentioned are examples of such though I suppose with the revelation that Raiden was the one who reanimated Liu Kang's soulless corpse, it kind of has some good impact.

Why would we see someone like Mokap again? He was a joke character made for fun and not really someone intended to be developed into anything really significant.

The whole "nobody ever stays dead" thing is silly and should be dropped. I think in a way, MKA will most likely do this, which is good.

No one ever said it was going to be easy to create a new cast of characters, but if they want to move on, they'll have to make them. We can't just have a whole bunch of returning characters come back. This isn't to say that I don't want certain characters to return. It's just that some characters are better off dead while other characters are better off moving on. There are also some characters who could return in a future game.

You're right about bad stories not being the characters' faults though not everyone can be a star. Some characters are going to have more prominent roles than others.

When it comes to wanting the MK team to give many of the MKDA characters a second chance, explain who, why, and how?

Why would Kobra be the next Scorpion? Why would Frost be the next Sonya?

I can see potential for characters like Kira and Drahmin. Jarek and Meat are just jokes. Moloch is as 1-dimensional as Baraka. And Kobra is probably better off dying. Having him live would likely result in him becoming a constant and relatively minor nuisance. I still feel he would've worked better in an earlier MK game or maybe just in a next-gen MK game that involves a more tournament-based storyline.

Yes, Reptile did start off as a green Sub-Zero/Scorpion with no story, but in MK2, he was given a story and character concept. I wouldn't say he has become "original", but he's come some way and could be considered by some as a protagonist in his own story arc. The thing here is that he's gotten some development. Characters like Baraka, after all this time, haven't. At the end of the day, he's still that evil, bloodthirsty henchmen that does bad stuff.

I think you try to pass of what you're saying as being true while you see some of us as being wrong and misguided. That's the feeling I get from the way you word certain things.

whatuknowaboutMK?: I think you seem to not have a good grasp of MK's story.

You have to understand that not all endings happen. I never said some of the MK stories don't really happen unless you mean in the context of MKSF and possibly MKSM though that's a different case.

The problem here is that you have this idea that all the endings happen as if they all occur in the story and somehow get retconned later. That's not how the endings happen in MK. In MK1, MK2, and to some extent, MK3-MKT, the endings were mainly "what-if" endings. For MK1, it was the scenario of "what if this character defeats Shang Tsung?". For MK2 and MK3, it has to do with the defeat of Shao Kahn. After that, the endings in MK4-MKD were a mix of endings that do happen, endings that don't happen, and bits of certain endings that do happen. In MKA, the endings are all "what-if" endings.

Why should the story matter now? It has always mattered. If it didn't, why did they bother doing one in the first place, especially continuing it?

Why are you implying that me wanting the story to matter is something recent? I have cared about the MK storyline for a long time. I never said that everyone else is sick and tired of the same fighters I'm sick and tired of. Everyone has their favorites. However, that doesn't make them quality characters.

What's stupid of you is to make certain implications as well as not understanding what I'm talking about.

What do you mean when you say that Scorpion is one of the characters on the top row in MKD?

Scorpion is Ed Boon's favorite character, so of course he returned in MKD. Again, about the story thing, read or re-read what I said regarding endings.

It's funny that you bring up the whole "the only one who can defeat the Dragon King" thing as he wasn't the one to defeat him.

Why would I want them to create a new fighter with the same moves as those of a current character?

Why should story not have importance in determining the fates of the characters when the story plays an important role in that? Did you even understand what was being said in MKA's intro? If you think the story is not that important, they might as well not have bothered with one.

At least we agree that some characters really do need to go. I'm not saying too many characters should die. But I do think that a certain amount of them need to go to bring back some stability to the realms while others should live, but not come back.

lol. it cracks me up. This dude is really taking what some deem to be the worst mk to date seriously. You keep beliving in MKA and the MK teams fake promises. Don't bitch when all these characters are back in MK10,lol. And you keep putting ur opinion as fact, belive it or not, there are mokap fans. And why should i post the characters i think need a second chance? Just because you don't like a cetain characters dosent mean everybody hates them. Its all about you. you are selfish. And i wonder if Sub was going to be killed off that maybe you could have empathy with the rest of us fans who are not so lucky.