Well thats not fair, I belive he actully has PLOT compared to your colour swaps.
And yes I realise Repitle had a slight colour swap but remember that he had an ORIGINAL set of moves.

p.s.

Hmm... So in your opinion, people buy things because they look good, but then after they get over the "look," the substance becomes the all-around focal point? Um... That is wrong on so many levels. Looks and moves remain more exciting long after the story in a video game.

For instance, Scorpion is still the face of MK simple because of his "Get Over Here" move, despite his repetitive storyline and the lame and unfitting twist they gave him in MKD as champion of the elder gods so suddenly

I assure you, most people don't like Scorpion because of his story. It's still mainly for that spear move.


So the MK series would die if it stopped having a story? That is completely irrational. MKA's story was a pile of dung, yet it still became very successful. How? Explain this to me please, since story is sooo vital for the existence of the MK series.

I'm sure that game sold well because it had all the characters. That's what the fan raves were mostly about before the game came out.


This seems pretty true. But in video games, story is always a plus, not the core of the product. Some successful games don't even have a continuous story yet they're still successful. Why? Because they're cool, fun, and exciting.


True. And if the character has a good story, then the person will like the character even more, cuz some people like cookies better after they're dipped in milk. (The icing... Get it?)

All I know is I still like "cookies" whether they've been "dipped" in "milk" or not.

So, theoretically speaking, cookies should be eradicated if the world runs out of milk? No, the milk is just the plus. So if the complimentary gift didn't come with an item you purchased you'd throw your item out the window? So if all superhero sidekicks disappeared or quit, the superheroes will become purposeless and insignificant? So you'd toss that hamburger into the trash can just because it didn't come with french fries?

Explain to me how story is the root and core of all MK characters which should determine their fate in this video game franchise.

First of all honey, i was using him as an example. Without him there would be no Chamel and Khamel. And Reptile didnt have an original move set, he shared both Scorps and subs moves until MK2.

I wouldn't go far as to say it's the root and core of characters...but you have to figure, in Mortal Kombat, what else to have to base it on?

Only a handful of characters have trule unique trademark moves that they and they alone can do. A lot of characters (including old ones) have bland or generic moves like fireballs, energy blasts, and flying kicks/punches that honestly can be given to just about anyone. Even some trademark moves are shared amongst characters.
Special moves will only take yo so far. You mentioned Scorpion...whom a lot of fans are starting to turn on. His stupid little spear and catchphrase can only last so long before people catch on that he has very little else going for him.

Then you have characters appearance....which is superficial. Again, only a small handful of characters have truly distinguished appearances that no one else has. You can instantly recognize someone like Sindel or Raiden no matter what they wear or how they're designed....but beyond that....you've got a dozen ninja and random people. Think about it...what distinguishes Liu Kang from anyone else? He vaguely resembles Bruce Lee? What makes Sonya stand out in terms of design? She's the only blonde woman? What makes Jade stand out? She wears green? Also looks can be changed...the ninja characters have proven that a dull looking character can be made into something unique.

Story though is a lot harder to fix than anything else. At this point, I can confidently say NOTHING will ever make me care about Kano. They've established who and what he is and I just don't care. He's a one-note character who isn't going anywhere. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with Kira taking his moves and carrying on in his place.
(She also looks better, too)


The big thing though that makes me want a lot of characters gone...aside from the a good deal of the old characters have gotten stale....is they claimed Armageddon is going to be the "grand finale" game of this chapter of the story. That therefore, IMO, should mean a lot of character won't make it out. Otherwise it defeats the purpose.

And if you do that, why even bother having a story at all? Because why should I care about anything that happens in the story is nothing happens and there's no consequence? Does no one else find it kind of goofy that Mortal Kombat is supposed to be a life & death struggle between good and evil and in almost 15 years, no one's died? And the few who have, came back? It's soft storytelling. The poster who started this thread said no one should be killed off because someone may want them back someday....SOFT storytelling. And that leads to a stagnate story.

Only a small few of the precious old characters from MK1 and MK2 have evolved and remained vitle throughout the series. Most haven't. And I think it's bullshit Johnny Cage should get an eighth chance to get interesting while characters like Drahmin and Hotaru only get one or two, just because he's an "original."
Whoopti-fucking-do. I'm sorry, but I don't consider the old characters from MK1 and MK2 sacred cows who deserve special treatment just because they're old characters.

Let's go back to Scorpion. One of the reasons...just one, there are many...I've grown tired of him is because I no longe rhave any reason to care about him. He'll always be back. And from the looks of things, they have no intention of ever changing him. So why should I bother caring about him anymore?

People like to rationalize and say "No, Scorpion doesn't want revenge anymore...he wants to RESCUE his son from Quan Chi. See? It's different." Yeah just like Mileena and Kitana's faces getting switched is a "change" in their feud. At the end of the day, it's still Scorpion bitching about his family and it's still Kitana & Mileena fighting over who gets to be royalty.
It's the same shit....different toilet.

Armageddon claims to be the end of the current generation. The next generation game will start a new chaptor in th story and supposedly have a revamped fighting engine and all sorts of shit. In my mind, that therefore should mean a lot of characters aren't going to return. And personlly, I think from here on in, if a character dies, they STAY DEAD.



Now QueenSindel, regarding Sindel herself....because I know when you defend the old characters, you really only care about her....while she does have a distinguished look, story-wise she is an expendable character. It's just storytelling logic. Her story CAN continue....but it doesn't HAVE to. And in terms of story importance, she's superceded by Kitana......which I suppose would explain why you're so adamant about story NOT being the deciding factor.
You're best arguement against Sindel being killed off is it's too predictable....which it really is. Most are expecting Sindel to die and Kitana to become Queen.

But, of the old characters who could possible return, I wouldn't mind if Sindel was among them. While she is an old character and he story has run out of steam. her situation isn't nearly as bad as characters like Scorpion, Johnny Cage, Liu Kang, or Kano....among others.
She just needs her own real purpose that only she can do(something more than merely defending Edenia) and to get out of Kitana's shadow. The latter can be done rather easily if Kitana retires or she abandons Edenia should she return (which is what I think she should do).

Exactly!, oh and sorry for the grammer. Didn't realize that I had the words all bunched up like that. I guess I was really focussed on getting my point accross.lol

Armageddon's story was shit, but it won best fighting game of the year.

that was because of the characters it had everybodys favourite MK character in the game...

Maybe, but as a fighting game, it's definitely a big joke. Wu-TangStyle nailed as to why it won that award.

You're being seriously presumptuous.

Yes, Sindel is my favorite character, but haven't you also heard me brag about Jade? There's two characters that I'm rooting for here, not just one.

Also, I'm not saying story shouldn't decide the characters' fate just so that Sindel can return. Ha! That's way off. I simply don't consider story to be the prime factor of video games. If story should decide the characters' fate, then why the hell is Scorpion returning if you just explained how his story has become completely stale?

Popularity is what should decide which characters return and which don't, and the classics still remain the most popular in general. New characters from MK4 and after haven't really topped any of our classics in terms of popularity despite any good stories they might have, have they?

Now Sindel isn't very popular anymore thanks to her dull and disappointing MKD and MKA renditions, but when compared to the females, she's around top 5 I would guess.

Overall, I just think wasting characters is, well... a waste, especially the classics. I mean, Johnny's stories have sucked lately, but hey, he makes a better action figure than Hotaru and a bunch of other characters. Am I wrong? Afterall, this is a fighting game. I think it's more important for the characters to kick ass before being a part of some grand master plan/story about good versus evil.

Also, I could say the same thing about you and Kitana.... The only reason you're adamant about story being the deciding factor is because she has a prominent role in the stories.

That's a load of crap, by the way, cuz Scorpion and Sub-Zero have never been significant characters to the main storylines of any MK games, yet here they are... returning. Even in the movies they were just supporting characters.

So story indisputably being the deciding factor is a joke.

Now, I'm not saying story doesn't matter in MK. I like MK and its characters having stories, but for deciding whether they should be reused or disposed of....? Video game characters? You've got to be kidding me.

Personally, I liked characters such as Johnny, Reptile, Sonya, Frost, Mileena, and my two favs long before I read their bios in the 2D games. After reading their bios, if they were good (like Sindel's)... Then good for me, and if they were cheap... Then "meh." I still liked them anyway.

Sorry, but I just find it ridiculous how you and some other people here have become so obsessed with these characters' stories. I just like the characters cuz their cool and kick ass with style. Their bios are just a plus for me. For instance, I wasn't one of the fans complaining about MKA's lack of bios. But, I'm glad that we're getting them though.

Ok, queen sindel's right. We have to remeber MK is a FIGHTING game, not an rpg. MKA story was pure shit, but yet it won best FIGHTING game of the year. While i love the story, we have to remeber, gameplay and characters and their moves and all that fighting games are made of HAVE to come first. After finnishing all the importent stuff, then story comes. And story is VERY VERY importent, i love MK's story, but its a second compared to gameplay, which is the number one thing. What is MK known for? Its gameplay, not story. Its known for its blood,it graphics,its characters and last but certainly not least, its story. And as i've stated, it dosen't make sense to just KILL off characters just to kill them off. You can end their story with out killing them. You never know who u might want to see back in the future. I'll say it again, you can end somebody's story without killing them. Killing is not the answer. Thats just wasting characters. Lets say they kill all current characters off and then years from now they do a Mortal Kombat Trilogy 3, do you know how much hard work its going to be story wise to bring those characters back? I mean thats why its not smart to just go crazy and kill. Just end their story in a way that if you need or want to, they can be brought back easily.

Exactly.

Maybe if MK actually were an RPG, then I'd understand why some people are so concered over wasting characters with lousy stories. Some people act like if MK's stories are the prime factor of MK and that doesn't make sense.

Maybe they're just RPG fans trying to make the most out of the storytelling MK has to offer, ya know what I mean?

Anyway, I don't want any characters to die. And if they do, they should came back... but slowly.

For instance, Liu Kang died in MK5, so why did he return immediately in MK6? That was wierd. I think in cases like that, the characters should return slowly. Like Liu could have just made an appearance as a ghost in Konquest, and then return in MK7 completely.

For it to have an effect, the character needs to stay dead for a while, like let them skip a game or 2, but not stay dead forever. And everyone knows MK characters never really die so I don't understand why everyone brags when a dead character returns, as if they're surprised or something.

exactly. Thats why i didn't care for MKD. MKDA gave us a rebirth, but MKD threw everything MKDA gave us out the window. It also brought back too many old characters at once. MKD just brought back too much old, thats why i didn't like it. It didn't have that new feel DA had. The new characters were lame in my opinion, except for Ashrah and Havik and it was all just a repeat of MK4. And armageddon didn't help matters. In my opinion, MK got off to a GREAT start on this generation, but it quickly went down hill. Also, i hate how they killed off Liu,Kahn and Goro in DA, then all of a sudden they are back in MKD. The way they explained how Kahn survived was lame, including Goro's. And i kinda liked how Liu's body was killing people, i thought that was cool and creepy, but the whole thing with his soul trying to stop his body was lame. And in both his MKD and MKA endings, his soul and body are put back together, and he is alive once more,lol. But i like liu, so its good that hes alive again. Has their been anyone from the original MK roster that hasen't died atleast once? Liu,Sonya and Cage have bit the dust. Cage have bit the dust two times to be exact.

ProfesserAhnka: Did you not read my post or something? As a FIGHTING game, it's a big joke. MK is NOT known for its gameplay, unless you mean people who are familiar with the gameplay stuff and already know that MK's fighting system is poor compared to other fighters.

I think certain characters should die and never come back as some of them are going to go nowhere while others have had their run. We don't need to see characters like Kano, Jarek, and Kobra again.

Johnny Cage died only once. His MK3 and MK4 stories were retconned.

You guys are still missing the point. Look I don't know about u guys, but let me preech a lil' bit. When I invite my friends over to play Mortal Kombat, it's to kick their ass, not just sit there and talk about what's going on in these character's lives. The character's stories are good to talk about on the side as you are kicking the living shit out of your enemy/opponent. And you know what the best part is about Mortal Kombat? The story? No. On top of that when it's time to finish my friends off after showing them how good I am at kicking their ass, I can perform a killer FATALITY just to rub it in their face. Now you tell me what fun would that be if you couldn't do it wit your favorite characters? Somebody please tell me that! What fun would it be if your favorite character was Raiden, Kung Lao, or Shang Tsung (just examples) if you couldn't show off how good u are with them. And don't tell me "oh it's a new game so we can master the new characters." Fuck that shit, Favorites will always be favorites and you know that as well as I do. What if the new characters turn out to suck? What then? My point is Mortal Kombat is a FIGHTING GAME 4 blood thirst fans (like me) and people deserve to have the right to kick ass or shed blood with their favorite characters. If they don't all make it for this game (MK8), so what? Just don't kill them! Oh and one more thing. What is it with this Hotaru guy? Why do so many like him out of all people? I mean your entitled to your opinions but c'mon man. I will destroy him with Scorpion. (One of my favorite characters of all time.) Yeah not everybody is turning against him. Just take a look at everybodys sigs. What do you mostly see? Classics. Hotaru anyone?

I haven't actually.



Because a lot of fans...for some reason...are terrified of change and cling desperately to nostalgia. It's sad and personally, I don't think this is something we should be proud of.
"I only like old characters! I hate anything that's new!"

It's not just about story. It's about wanting the MK team to actually take a chance and try something new instead of forcing the same shit on us again and again because of whiney fanboys who can't let go of their favorite fictional character.



Why? Hotaru wears this fancy looking armor and has an forceful appearance. Johnny Cage is some dude in sunglasses.
Face it, the only reason Johnny Cage is still around and still forced into game sis because he's a "classic." And that's the stupidest reason to bring back any character.

My point here isn't about the importance of story...my point here is why should old character deserve to make it into the next game over newer characters? Hotaru has a better design, he's a fresh face, and a solid story. But Johnny Cage, whose an old character with a bland design and meaningless story, should be picked over him merely because he's an old character?
And I don't even like Hotaru that much, by the way.



You should read my posts more carefully. I want Kitana to retire and let someone else take the spotlight. Whenever I discuss what she should do in future games, I always make a point of saying "If she returns..."
Kitana is an old character who, like most of the other old characters, has run her course.

See, even though since she's a favorite, there's a part of me that wants Kitana to come back.....that doesn't mean she should. Reiko is one of my favorite characters....but you're never going to see me trying to convince anyone he is a quality character who deserves to get in the next game over someone else. It's about being realistic.
This is something MK fanboys need to learn. An opinion can't be wrong...but that doesn't make it right.



You misunderstand storytelling. Sub-Zero may never have been "important" in the sense that he has destroyed the big evil at the end of the game, but his story has had a extremely prominant presence thoughout the series that involves numerous other characters. That's what makes him important in the story. That justifies his continued presence and iconic status. Scorpion used to, but they fucked him up and now he only returns for sales.

Like I said, bringing characers back merely for iconic reasons is a stupid reason. Scorpion and Sub-Zero, like it or not, get the icons treatment. That doesn't mean every old character should.



I never said it was indisbutably the deciding factor. Point I was making is storyline has just as much merit in deciding characters' fate as special moves and appearance. That's the MK teams fault as much as anyones because of recycled moves and similar appearances.

You said you consider the story the icing on the cake. Well, I consider appearance the icing on the cake. If it wasn't for storyline, what the fuck would I care who used fans as their weapon?



Whoopee for you. But some people need more than pretty colors and fancy clothes. They actually want to care about the characters and what happens to them.

Hotaru is an archetypical character who fights for what he strongly believes in: Order. He can't exactly be classified in the "good" or "evil" alignment as even though he fights for what he believes is right, he's kind of a prick and will side with anyone who he believes will help bring Order to the universe. So he doesn't care so much about the means, just the end result. This makes him distinct from other MK characters. And I think it's cool to see a Samurai-type character in MK.

Scorpion has turned into a joke.

Nact for misconstruing the message I see. It's like you need to understand the basics badly...*healthy chuckle*....


Anywho:

Simply what I'm saying is that each element of this game is just as important as the next. And that yes, The Story-line of Mortal Kombat is a "core" for each individual character.

The core Fighting engine, core story-line, and core graphics engine are all equal parts of the game. However, alot of space on the disc we are paying for, I feel is being wasted on characters that heavily lack in the area of thier stories(i.e. relavance). Now, since the thread starter has an issue with bringing them back for some reason, the question is relavance. "Why bring them back".

Character relavance can come from popularity.....but you have to consider relavance in that equation. It's story-line relavance for a game such as Mortal Kombat. And so, story-line is important because.....

re-read my last post.

Popularity, looks, and special moves will have a place with every-single character on the roster. But that doesn't deem them relavant for the game...sto-ry does. lol Purpose in the game does. A.k.a. : "What the hell are you in this game fighting for?".....hypethitic question which is also "leading".
------------------------------------------

I'll answer this:



Mk4
MkDa
MkSm
MkD
MkA...

Majority rules that, before you see a character, you hear a story being told. And to take that further, you don't see a character without a story being told.

Vital? It's the way you make the game.. movie, cartoon, ect.

1. Story(What's the story gonna be? And who should have a part in this story? The who,what, when, where, and why are all taken care of here.)
2. Characters(what is their role in this story? Why are they fighting?)
3. Fighting (fighting mechanics and special moves). Each part being developed to compliment and solidify the other parts.

Story and characters can be interchangable, but for this game, they don't exsist without each other. Can't you see that? Yes, it's a fighting game, but it's a fighting game about something....a story

You guys can argue till you are blue in the face, story is important, but not as important as gameplay. I said it once, i'll say it again, MK is a fighting game, not an rpg.

True...but what does that have to do with deciding who comes back and who doesn't? Mortal Kombat is notorious for shallow gameplay. A character can play great one game, then play like shit the next one and vice versa.

From a strictly gameplay standpoint, they can get rid of Kitana and introduce a new character who uses fans as their weapon. The only reason to care about something like that is storyline reasons.

It could also just mean you like kitana. If they gave another characters fans, and u liked them because they had fans, the you just like the fans. Queen sindel loves sindel, it dosen't matter if she has a story. I'm the same with the khameleons, we just love them. We dont care about if they have storys or not. NOW I DO LOVE THE MK STORY, and i think its vital, but it dosent and shouldn't come first. What would you guys want the mk team to do in mk8, fix the gameplay and make it perfect which is the whole point of a fighting game, or spend all their time on a story that has been flawed since MKD? I rather have MK as a FIGHTING game, not an RPG.

No, it's not. If story is truly as important as all other aspects of MK, then why did MKA sell very well?

It had a dumb story and the characters didn't come with bios. So by your standards, MKA should have been dismissed or thrown away by people that bought it... and it wasn't.

And yeah, it's good to know why characters are in the game, what they're fighting for, but that shouldn't decide what characters should stay and not...

"I'm fighting for something meaningful even though I'm boring, so I should stay." ....????

Is that the way you see it? Ugh.

So many characters have significant stories to the main storylines of MK but they don't accumulate many fans, and having fans means making money.

So Reptile, who is a fan favorite and one of MK's iconic characters should be disposed of because he continues to do nothing but serve evil bosses?

How about Sonya, another star character and fan favorite, who is the same Special Forces officer she was in the 2D games?

You think these moneymakers should be exchanged for virtually fan-less characters like Daegon and Shinnok who are significant to the stories?

I'm sorry, but your argument is so flawed.

Now, it's good for MK to have stories. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just saying that the stories... don't make the money. Exciting bios or not, Sonya and Reptile would cause more fan raves than Shinnok and Daegon put together.

I'm also not saying popular characters should be the only ones to stay. My argument is the same as ProfessorAhnka's... It's stupid to kill off the characters.


I think what ProfessorAhnka meant to say was that the actual playing of the game is more important, not the tier level of the gameplay.

It's more important for MK (a fighting game) to have kick-ass characters that are appealing than to have dull and unattractive characters with good bios.

100% true. I've loved her since MK3 cuz she looked super cool and had awesome powers and finishers. The fact that she turned out to be a queen and the bride of Shao Kahn only topped it off, and MKD's crappy story for her didn't stop me from loving her.

[direct answer]: An old sells tactic called deception. Ironic isn't it?
"Mortal Kombat Deception". lol Visuals did play an enourmous part in "why" this game sold so well. Who was in it ect...I've never denied that or inferred different.

Anyway, that's not what this threads about now is it...?.. Make a thread, maybe you'll get to entertain me in there too. a-heh.



"Standards" is headed in the right direction for you. All that other stuff is your own fabrication. If you can't understand something about my standards, it's simple.....ask a question.




Yes it should be, and it is at least one factor that keeps some of these characters coming back. Li Mei is one prime example of this: Shang Tsung and Quan Chi violated her village....she fights to avenge her people.

Once that mission is done (either she accomplishes her goal or she fails//dies in the process) and over, she should then......stop-fighting. She should stop being a part of Mortal Kombat because it's no longer important for her to fight....her job is done. No reason to fight..see? Story-line is in fact what introduced her to us just like all the other characters. What's wrong with having story-line...take her out of the game?.

Nothing I'd bet. Wait, there's nostalgia(or fan favorite). Right. So now, let's retcon the whole plot of the exsisting games, make certain things cannon, and the other stuff a big "Oops". As long as everybody likes the characters they've been playing with and as long as they keep staying around....that makes perrrfect sense.. pft

So then to further the rhetorical, there's nothing wrong with having story-line, i.e. "life-line", take any character out of the game. Story would be evident as an equal component, AND it would be doing it's job correctly ..............if it was doing it's job at all. Hence the funk over the bios. (no I didn't fuss over them, but I did wonder why they weren't there in the game.)

Alot of them need to "die" out. A few of them are dead. Some of them, their "life-line"//story-line stops without that stronger, more important character there. And even more of them have stales "lives",or thier "lives" are at an end anyway.....so "kill" them already and let's start over with a couple of old, but more of the new.

(ex.A.)
If Kitana goes..you mind as well take Jade, and probably Sindel with her.
Stretch for Mileena.

(ex.B.)
If Sonya goes, take Jax out with her. And if you take Jax out, Hsu Hao can probably go too.

(ex.C.)
Now, If you take somebody like Shao Kahn out....just about everybody aligned with evil goes with him. Even all of our "non-earthly races" go with him. Tarkata, Shokan, Centaurs, and a strong possibility on the Raptors.

After that all you got is "good" aligned characters with nobody to fight, the couple people there who don't care what happens, and "joke characters". Well I can them "paper-wieght" characters.

But all you got left is "relative peace". Peace is not going to sell the game, a word like "Armegeddon" is. "The final clash between good an evil" is going to sell the game...That's a story missy.

.....Just like a persons real life Biography tells us what happend to them, the same type of thing is desired in Mk...big surprise with all the reality, blood, and gore desired from this game. "We" want a "realistic" story too.
After all, it's what the game is based on.....A-Stor-Y




Not so much. New favorites can become appearant as it has before...."Sindel Fan". She was new to Mk3, and My favorite character Raiden was missing from that game. It's not as big a problem...the "new".

On Reptile, yes. That would be exceptable for him.....to me. He's been getting used up through-out the series and I think this is a perfect time for him to rest.....for good. Let some other Raptor character emerge if they don't die with Shao Kahn.

On Sonya, no. I don't think she should go. I think a war between the Special Forces and Sektors Tekunin Forces would be an adequate "spruce" for Sonya and the Special Forces overall. It will introduce new characters, and give Sonya a heavier purpose for being in the game as a playable character.

As far as Daegon and Shinnok, they've both served their pupose and should die too. Didn't I post this one the last page??

Re-Read MY LAsT pOsTs....




That's where you are making the mistake. Believing that a favorite character is a the only reason people buy Mk games. It's a lame excuse on top of that.

I got favorite characters in all kinds of games....but I don't run out and buy them for that reason. And especially not only that reason with Mk cuz I got almost all of them to date. Another mistake you're making is that, you don't even realize that the story is in fact what you're buying with a title like "Mortal Kombat".

The title provokes "story-time", and screams "who, what, when, where, how". What keeps you buying the game is what's gonna happen next, what keeps you playing is because it has your favorite characters and because it's just a fun game.



One more time, If the characters story-line//life-line is stale, stagnate, reliant on another stronger characters goals or objectives that are stale or stagnate, or completed OR at an end anyway....OR, even if the characters exisitance is without merit....kill them.


Last mistake you're making is assuming that I'm "arguing" with you...lol

Yes, gameplay is more important than story, and it should be a high priority.

And I'll say this again...in fact, it's for the third fucking time actually. I'll even put it in caps for you.

AS A FIGHTING GAME, MK IS A JOKE.



Neither one actually.

I want them to have both great gameplay and great story, with cool characters, music, etc. etc.

When it comes to the gameplay, which I said is a joke, they say they are pretty much going to start from scratch, which I think is good. I personally like the way they did things in MKA with the 2 styles as opposed to 3. They should keep that, imo. One thing they need to do is to have gameplay programmers and testers who actually know what the hell they're doing. Another thing is that the designs of the core fighting mechanics need to be solid. Because they've been designed so poorly ever since MK4, it's a big sign that they really need to do things right. They need to at least have all of the needed basic mechanics such as wake ups, parries, throw escapes...things that other fighting games have already had for many years now.

This is why MK's gameplay is a joke. It's so far behind that it's sad.

For the story, you say it's been flawed since MKD, but I think otherwise. MK's storyline has had its plotholes and retcons, some of which still need to be clearly and properly explained. There are multiple characters, such as Sonya, Jax, and Johnny Cage, to name a few, who have had no character development at all. However, in Johnny Cage's and probably Jax's case, they seem to have finally gotten some. But...it's kind of late for them.

So yeah, while MK is mainly a fighting game series, its quality in the actual fighting hasn't been that great. I mean sure, back in MK1-MKT, you can see somewhat of a decent progression. But with MK4-MKA, well....not so much.

Another thing I should've brought up before is how you go on about how MK is a fighting game series, not an RPG series, and how you want it to stay a fighting game series. People don't really want the storyline to have higher priority over gameplay. At least that's not what I'm seeing. It's just that MK is known for its story when you compare it to most other fighters. So I think that story definitely has its place in a high priority, but I agree that it shouldn't have higher priority over the gameplay.

QueenSindel(TheBitch): Not all fan favorites can simply be kept just because they are fan favorites. At some point, some of them have to go. For example, I'm sure Shao Kahn is kind of a fan favorite, and he's definitely somewhat of an iconic character. However, in terms of story, he's had his run, and MK needs to start having new major villains.

For someone like Reptile, who I'll agree is a fan favorite, I personally think it would be nice to give him a happy ending. His story has had its run as well.

The point of MK: Armageddon was to get rid of most of the current roster of characters. If they don't do that, it makes things look bad, not just from a story standpoint, but also the standpoint that things would get somewhat repetitive by having a lot of the same characters over and over again.

Just how many more games do we need to see characters like Kano and Baraka?

I'm pretty sure what ThePredator151 was that story has its place in determining who will come back. He wasn't saying that it was the only and/or most significant deciding factor.

I buy MK games cuz it's a fun beat-em-up series with amazing characters and un-topped style. I suppose you buy MK for its story which I find confusing since this isn't a book.

Also, story is actually very seperate from the actual game itself. I mean, Mileena's MKD bio was about pretending to be Kitana, but when you play the game as her, you fight Jade, Kabal, Ashrah, Onaga, etc. even though they have nothing to do with what her story is in that game. You get it? MK isn't an RPG, that's why what Mileena does in her bio and what she does in the actual game are two very different things.

What am I trying to prove with this info? That you can't judge a character by their story since as a fighting game, they should be judged by how fun they are to fight with. Even though a character might have a great story for a game, you don't experience their story cuz it's not an RPG, so story being so important is a joke cuz it's something not even touched by the player. In MK:SH, ok yeah we were experiencing what Liu and Kung's purpose was in that game, right? Cuz that was partially an RPG game.

And about "purpose served so be gone".... Do you know about comic books? What happens after Superman or Wonder Woman resolve a problem they have (like the one Li Mei had with wanting vengeance)?... They get a NEW problem to deal with. Isn't this the point of a series? To continue with new problems and story arcs with the same characters and with new ones coming out every now and then? So I don't see why it's necessary to kill off characters if the solution to their dead bios could just be solved with a new problem for them. Superman has resolved many problems of his, but because he's lovable (like so many of our classics) they keep reusing him with different problems for him to deal with. And that's why it's stupid to kill of most of the MK roster since lots of the characters are lovable.

Like u just said, Sonya should return because she has a new problem with Sektor and all that, right? Did she have that problem before? ...Right. So who's to say that Li Mei, Shao Kahn, or my bitch Sindel won't have a new problem to keep the MK game readers like you intruiged?

Scorpion's vengeance problem has been completed ages ago, yet here he is, still the top dog. By your standards, he should not exist in MK anymore, and LOL to that idea cuz I know that'll never happen.

And then presumptuous people like you say "But the character's story is dead." Uh, have you read into their future? New bios for returning characters of this current-gen will be available in MK8, you know? Meaning their storylines will go on despite current problems they have or have completed and finished dealing with. Yet in MK8 you won't experience their story so what's the big deal? The story of MK8 will just be the enclosing roof to a fighting game; a feature.


Onaga is a new major villain isn't he? Shinnok too, but that doesn't mean Shao Kahn should be eliminated. He should still exist in the MK Universe and appear in games from time to time because people like him.


Ed Boon already said he won't make another MK game without Scorpion. Isn't that repetitive? Yet, he's a fan favorite so people are happy with that decision... and he has a lousy story to top it off.


I think Baraka is one of MK's coolest characters, so I'd love to see him return again and again within different games as long as he's refreshed in appearance, moves, story, and finishers so that he's not always exactly the same.

Obviously, gameplay should always come first...but once again, I thought this thread was discussing who should die and who should return.

QueenSindel's arguement is storyline shouldn't be as much a factor as appearance or special moves. I counter that by saying special moves are interchangable and since the gameplay is shallow, the biggest reason to care about who has what moves is because of storyline/character....hence my point about Kitana and her fans.



Ah, but what makes a character kick-ass and appealling?
Their appearance? Appearances are easier to fix than a character's storyline/personality.



But how can that be used as a judge either if characters' gameplay is constantly changing? As I said, a character can play great one game...then play like shit the next. Drahmin in MK:DA, even though he was supposedly top tier, was not that much fun to play with despite a good storyline. Then in Armageddon, they simply gave him a different fighting style and the problem was solved.

THIS is why storyline is necessary in deciding who continues and who doesn't. Like I've been saying, it's harder to fix a story than it is to fix anything else.


BUT...going back to the debate over who should return and who shouldn't...
You mention Superman and Wonder Woman and how they've lasted for so long. Here's the thing, a great deal of effort over the decades has been made to keep those characters fresh and vital and most important, they've EVOLVED with time. The majority of MK characters have not remained fresh or vital and even less have evolved.

Sonya and her new battle against Sektor has been mentioned. While that is a "new" battle, what indication do we have that it will be any different than her battles against Kano and the Black Dragon? How would it be different than her battles with Mavado and the Red Dragon? When the battle is over, how will Sonya have grown as a character and changed from the experience?

She probably won't. And that's why the people who follow the story often accuse her of being stale. It's not because she's not given new things to do. It's because despite the different enemies she faces, it's still the same Sonya Blade. The same, standard issue "tough chick."
They can keep thinking of new shit for Baraka to do...but it means nothing it's still the same ol' Baraka again and again. Yeah, Shao Kahn is no longer Emperor of Outworld. But has he changed at all? Not really. He might as well still be the boss. It's the same shit...just a different toilet. You keep bringing up Scorpion and how he's going to keep coming back. Yes, it is repetitive he'll never go away and he never changes. And it's not a good thing. And the people who are happy that Scorpion will never go away need to wake the fuck up and realize their favorite "bad ass" is steadily circling down the drain.

This is why people who care about the story want to see the focus go towards newer characters because if old characters aren't going anywhere, then we should move on. As been stated, Mortal Kombat is not an RPG. It's not a comic book. With only a small few exceptions, we don't get to truly experience the subtleties of characters' personalities. That's why characters need to stay fresh and if they don't, we need new characters.


But okay, say maybe NOW we'll see charactes change. Maybe NOW, Vogel will make an effort to have Sonya evolve and change. Say from now on, every character who returns will be kept fresh and vital and evolve. Then it goes back to the question of wanting something new.

I'll use Kitana as an example, (yeah, yeah...one track mind...sue me). Kitana is at a place story-wise where she can end. Edenia's restored and Shao Kahn will probably be destroyed...so Kitana can very easily live ahppily ever after. As I've said in other posts...she CAN continue though, if something horrible should happen and she renounces her title as princess and finds a new purpose. This would open up all new possibilities and perhaps allow her to grow as a character.

Kitana CAN continue. The real question though is: SHOULD she continue? And I think, in the interest of wanting something new.....no. She should get her happy ending and retire. Allow Jade, who's only been in a handful of game and is currently stuck in Kitana's shadow, a chance to develope.

Like I said before, why should old characters keep getting chances to stay/get interesting while newer characters get hardly any?


EDIT:
But you know what the really sad thing is, even if some characters were to evolve...some fans would probably get upset. Raiden's finally changed and is doing something new. Sure enough...there are fans bitching about how he should turn "light" again. Shao Kahn does have a lot of fans. And guess what? Some of those fans think he should be the boss again. Scorpion did get a change in Deception by becoming Champion of the Elder Gods. Sure enough, there were Scorpion fans whining about how he shouldn't be a hero and he should only be out for revenge. If they did think of something new and fresh for Baraka to do, I guarantee a lot of his fans would be pissed.

These are not the fans the MK team should be caterring to. These fans are trapped in the bullshit of nostalgia and apparently just want them to remake MK2 again and again and again.